#and i can't be the reason ianto gets hurt

[patrice-bergerons]

I'm not sure where exactly I am going with this yet but I want to write a janto fic in which, due to the effect of something alien or other, Ianto is banned from having sex for a 1-3 month period lest he die.

And set it in early season 2, when Jack just came back and they have sorted of started to go on proper dates but everything they've done has always ended up with them shagging.

Like take away their primary love language at a point in time where this budding thing between them is so tentative and new and see where they go from there, you know what I mean?

[professeurm]

i listened to Torchwood "The Dead Line" and yall... i seen video transcripts of Ianto speech and even photos but that shit hits hard. My ass was so emotional throughout the whole thing, like im still obsess with these two tragic idiots.

(warning 1, this will be long cuz i can't stop talking about these two. warning 2, i never read the comics, all the audios, or any other sources so my info isn't entirely reliable. just guesses and opinion. warning 3, spoilers!)

We all know the moment their relationship started to blossom it was destined to be doom because of Jack immortality and Torchwood (no one lasts pass their pension, well maybe Gwen lmao). It was never going to end up pretty. Whether Ianto died while on duty (which he did), whether Ianto grew old and Jack left for good this time or Jack leaving (like he did when the Doctor came) for good this time, leaving Ianto to handle Torchwood with the team.

That they didn't stop them from enjoy the small time they had together. Well I wouldn't be surprised if it add some complications.

Their bond was so strong that not even Adam could compete. The moment he made Ianto believe he's a killer is where he fucked up because Jack even though he couldn't exactly remember how close he was with Ianto, he knew one thing for certain. That man isn't a killer. He's the most sweetest, loyalist, and hard working man he knew. It just goes to show that even if they loss some memories of their time together, they click back into place. That has to be the sweetest thing I ever heard to have such connection with someone else like that. Like you know how deep the trust, love, and care for one another has to be? Like damn bro, get me someone like that. Shit 😭

Yall, there two opposite but they match each other freak. Ianto is neat, clean, and anti social. He ain't much of talker. Jack is messy, careless, and social as hell. You can't shut him up once you got him going. They share two thing. One, they're both broken men with demons they keep hidden from everyone. Two, they wear masks: Jack keeeping up the facade of a bubbly, flirty man; Ianto keeping up the facade of a butler (aka Alfred Pennyworth).

Ianto is everything Jack could possibly want. He's understanding in the choices he makes as a Captain and a lover. I bet he knows how to comfort Jack when he's at his worse (which i wouldn't be surprise if it's a mixture of sex and cuddles). He values Jack life like he doesn't got immortality, you can tell it hurts him when he dies. He holds him close to his chest with his arms wrap around him. Waiting for him to gasp back to life. Even in dead line, despite Jack coming back, he was still there begging and in pain. Worry he'll never see him again, see him smile and laugh. He stood there by his side like he always does when Jack dies in front of him. The dedication, the love, respect and care he has for Jack is so crazy sweet.

Ianto never took advantage of Jack immortality, he never despise or hate him for it. He saw him as a broke man who just wants to be loved and cared for, and he gave that the best he can. He was just mostly scared about losing something that gave him so much life since Lisa death.

Now, in my opinion it was goes the same for Ianto. Jack was everything Ianto ask for. He gave Ianto life, gave him a reason to keep pushing and fighting. He found himself, found a family. He no longer was just a teaboy, butler, or Jack side piece. He's the second in command, he runs the Torchwood from the shadow while Jack runs in broad daylight with his charms and leadership skills. They work perfectly together so Torchwood is running and saving lives. He found love again which I wouldn't be surprise if he thought he never will. He was cared for and love so much by Jack, value and loved by his friends. He couldn't ask for anything better.

They found comfort, companionship, trust, and loyalty in each other. They knew each other so well, I bet all it took was a look or a behaviour to know what the other person is feeling or thinking.

Now that makes it harder for Jack, for him to let go. Which means Ianto death hit him so hard that he loss half of himself. Not a piece, a half, because I feel like the Jack Ianto knew and loved so much was the person Jack always strive to be. What he fought so long to be.

In Torchwood audio: the House of the Dead, Jack came back to see him. Now Jack has a long life, meaning he has a long list of lovers. We all know he's a sucker for attention and sex. He can't help it. Now this doesn't mean he didn't love them or never cared about them when he left or they died or a mixture of both. He always carried them in his heart for as long as he lives, even tells their stories to people. But Ianto held such a special place in his heart.

So Jack saw him, tells him he was the only person he wanted to see despite the long list. Which show so much about how special and how much Ianto impacted his life. He is, in my opinion, Jack half. He is what Jack waited for in his long life.

Despite them having so little time, they built something strong and good.

It breaks my heart, still makes me cry because they're like soulmates. I never believe in soulmates until I saw these two on screen, im being so deadass. If you ask me who is my favourite Doctor Who couple, I will say them. Follow by twelve and Clara and nine/ten and rose. god im going to draw some janto fanart. thanks for listening yall and sticking around.

[meta-squash]

unpopular opinion: i fully understand why people were so upset that ianto died in children of earth and that jack didn't tell him he loved him back and that he basically died for nothing but i think it makes so so so much sense on multiple levels

on the level of jack and ianto's relationship, it makes perfect sense. from the start of the children of earth series, jack rebuffs every single one of ianto's attempts to define their relationship, to clarify what they are to each other, to learn more about him. even though their relationship seems to have advanced further than it was in series 2, ianto's attempts to get jack to open up emotionally fall flat or get rejected for multiple reasons. and then we're introduced to alice, who illustrates what happens to people who survive relationships with jack. and it was established long before children of earth that jack is terrible at dealing with death, at admitting defeat. of course he can't tell ianto he loves him, even if he does, because that would mean admitting losing him, and because (jack thinks) letting him in that way would only make the loss hurt more

on the level of the rest of the children of earth storyline, it perfectly lines up with the rest of the plot. jack sacrifices twelve children to the 456 so that 1-2% of the human race will not be killed in 1965, and assumes it's over. but it turns out the sacrifice is for nothing because they come back in 2009 and threaten to either take 10% of the worlds children, or the entire human race. jack goes to thames house with ianto and they threaten the 456, who then release the virus that kills ianto and everyone in thames house. a sacrifice which, for jack and alice, is basically for nothing because then stephen (who is innocent, and cannot consent to the risk of torchwood the way ianto did) is sacrificed anyway, and the world itself might be saved but they have to live with that grief and jack must live with all that guilt.

i just think it fits well as a parallel. an example of the uselessness of reckless action or reckless sacrifice, but also such a good example of what jack has had to live with for over a hundred years. people in power forcing him to do their bidding or for him to act rashly because he can see no other option, and he's forced to do it because he can't die or be otherwise damaged, but the people he loves can, and that's far more frightening. jack will easily put himself in harm's way because he can come back. but those he cares about can't, and people in charge know that, and use it to turn him into a pawn, into someone panic-stricken and reckless and desperate to do whatever it takes, or into someone who cannot say no because he knows that no one else will say yes.

and that's the entire thing about children of earth. ianto's death is caused by a jack who is panic-stricken and reckless, who charges in guns blazing because half the time that works and because he's scared for alice and stephen and also the world. stephen's death is cause by governments, powerful people, forcing jack's hand by threatening those he loves and then forcing him to realise that no one else is going to sacrifice their single child to save millions of others and he has to be the one to do it, because he's the only one they can threaten in that way. even though he's the only one who will live forever with the guilt, literally forever, rather than living one lifetime and then dying.

[the-torchwood-archive]

I'm separating this out from the poll because honestly the results are neither here nor there and I want this to be its own post. It's going to be an odd one, so bare with me.

Can I take this opportunity to talk about the actual reason I think that Gwen gets a lot of hate? Coming from someone who spent a good maybe ten years somewhat in the Gwen bash camp and in the past handful of years has had some clarity over it.

The reason people don't like Gwen is that she is narratively immune from consequence. All of the Torchwood team are morally compromised and make bad choices and are made to suffer for it. Gwen, for the most part, is not. This is not a problem with the character Gwen Cooper. This is a problem with her writing. That's where the problem lies. I actually love Gwen. I hate her writing.

Looking at things like her cheating on Rhys. Firstly with James and secondly with Owen. She gets what she needs emotionally, things end, and she stays with Rhys. There are no consequences. Owen sleeps with her and then falls in love with Diane and is framed as the villain.

Torchwood becomes a priority in her life and yet she is still able to maintain enough of a social life to have close friends in her wedding party. There are no consequences. Tosh has Torchwood as her priority and finds it impossible to have a social life.

She thinks with her heart and gets people hurt. She smuggles Suzie out, she gets Rhys shot, she traumatizes Nikki. People get hurt, but it's framed as okay because she means well. There are no consequences.

She pushes against Jack and gets away with it, when Owen gets fired. She brings a third party into the Hub to keep them safe and while he gets killed, it's undone by the end of the episode, while Tosh and Ianto have their loved one die permanently. Torchwood operatives can't have spouses brought into the fold and will be stood down if pregnant, yet she brings Rhys into the fold with no consequences and her pregnancy at the beginning of COE is framed as not being a deal breaker.

I love this messy bitch. They're all messy bitches and if you have one that you single out as being worse than the others, then it's worth taking a look at that. I think that when it comes down to it, it isn't actually the character Gwen Cooper that people find problem with, but the lack of consequences that she faces.

We're a lot better as a fandom these days. The anti-Gwen sentiments have really cooled off. I also think that a lot of that cooling off has come from the newer fans having a wider view of the her character, which stemmed from the handing over of writing duties from the TV crew to the EU crew. The rose coloured glasses of the TV crew have come off and the current writers have gone "okay, her life has been ruined. Let's actually show that fall out. Let's give some consequence". And I think that did wonders for the character.

It's nearly impossible to separate an issue with narrative from an issue with character. The two things are so entwined that you almost can't extract them and that's a shame. Because the character is brilliant and was mishandled by writers who had a boner that lasted for much longer than recommended.

[felicitykings]

Ep 13: The finale was SOOOOO good!

Seeing the repercussions was a great way to open the episode

How many times will I say "Poor Owen" while he's here? But I love that the team has his back and having Owen be the foil to Jack in the team (even though they care about each other so much) is so great, it's a very interesting dynamic.

Gwen tried so hard not to mix her life with torchwood but it ended with tragedy (it's the norm 💔)- she's so badass and strong, it hurts to see the job twist her life around.

The mutiny against Jack was unexpected but it made so much sense considering his morals/his way of working and how much he hides from everyone, including his immortality. Can't believe this is the way they find out!

I'm guessing Abaddon was the thing hiding in the darkness, which was kind of anti climactic in a way, having it be the big bad after the way the darkness in death was framed doesn't make sense to me- is it that he feeds on people's deaths? but omg the reveal was so awesome and the way Jack saved the day- goosebumps!!

When he comes back to life and the team are so relieved to see him, and the way he forgives Owen so readily- they all love each other (albeit in a fucked upish kind of way)

(As much as I love Gwen, her relationship with Jack is kinda weird, I don't get it?)

And fuck, Jack & Ianto!! ❤️❤️❤️ When he sniffs Jack's coat and the hug & kiss!! The ship is sailing (have I missed something? Have they actually been shagging this entire time)

Omg the ending!!!!!!! I wanna watch S3 with Martha & Ten all over again, the trio is my favourite!!

Also side note: I didnt realise everybody in Cardiff knows who torchwood is, pretty much none have a positive view on them, I wonder if that's gonna turn into a running joke.

(Sorry this was kinda long!)

- ⏱️

i love repercussions. i love protagonists dooming themselves.

jack/owen foils YES!! i think it's also a good choice for owen to be the 'doctor' of the team as well. although coming at it from a more 'twat' like angle a lot of the time, he very much cares about saving people while jack is a lot more pragmatic about that for the most part.

i love their f-ed up dynamics so much. they really do love each other but boy are they dysfunctional!

genuinely there's no reason for all the gwen/jack of it all but alas.

thinking about how ianto lost lisa just a few episodes ago and was able to find someone to care about again, only to think he lost them too. ianto's life is such a tragedy. also yes, since sometime around 1x07. there's a big finish audio 'broken' that goes a bit more into that.

it's so fun to watch torchwood 1x13, dw's the master trilogy, and then torchwood 2x01 to get more of jack's perspective. there's a lot going on.

also i love hearing your thoughts!

[jakowskis]

ok i need to talk about owen's mental state during ep12 (+ ep 13 ill do both in one)

so there we see owen described as 'a bit demented'. he's repeatedly referred to with similar wording throughout this script

'wired and dangerous', 'manic', 'unhinged.' and i love that little bit about owen pacing and almost laughing, and ianto watching him. (the wariness of ianto's gaze is implied). like owen is Not stable during this ep.

owen is a very obviously mentally ill character and i particularly am intrigued by the state of hysteria we see him reach at several points in canon. there's a perpetual very frantic, angry neuroticism to owen that's underdiscussed, imo. i don't remember where it was, maybe a commentary, but burn described owen as being full of nervous energy, and if you watch him closely, you can see it. he's always fidgeting, always shifting, always uncomfortable in his own skin. it's even in the damn audios; you can frequently hear the shift of his leather jacket against the chair/car seat he's in. idek how they do that. i said in another post i think he has adhd, but it's more than that, because it's not just restlessness. it's anger, and it's fear.

and then when he gets worked up, you really see it. sometimes it's not as bad - when he's first brought back in s2e7 he's practically buzzing, and martha finds it hard to reason with him. he also gets like that in at least two of the owen & andy audios, notably gooseberry. it's like a frenetic impulsive state where he doesn't know when to stop. considering all of these are within the context of his undead state / being brought back to life, i guess you could argue it has to do with that, but imo i think it's something he's capable of regardless, those were just... significant triggers, to say the least. the adrenaline rush, in that context, wouldn't help either. also pre-death, he's depressive as hell, so not much would get him pumped up like that.

sometimes it's destructive, like in this episode, and i think it's also worth noting i interpret owen as having BPD (honestly it's not even a headcanon atp like it's insane how borderline-coded he is. i can't believe they accidentally wrote him like that. he's literally a canonically borderline character as far as i'm concerned), and i think the threat of losing jack and tosh (after having just lost diane) triggered him so badly that there was just absolutely no reasoning with him in that moment. he's practically manic the whole episode because of it - and losing touch with reality during periods of intense stress is an occasional symptom, as well. but one of the primary, best known symptoms of bpd is "frantic efforts to avoid abandonment" - i'd say accidentally destroying the world to try to get back your boss, coworker, and girlfriend you knew for a week more than qualifies.

like i said. mentally ill character of all time. to me. and because idk if the show was entirely aware of it, or meant to do it at all really, it's not as ableist as it could be, surprisingly. in fact, owen's struggles with his mental health largely humanize him. but i have noticed people tend to like him better during his undead arc, where he's self-destructing, and not so much during this arc, where he's lashing out. both are peak 'owen being mentally ill' moments, but it's interesting how we can sympathize when it's inward-turning, but we're quick to condemn it when it hurts others. which is another reason, i've observed, that the fandom latched onto ianto's struggles with his mental health, but not owen's. but i digress.

anyway. so note the 'truly unhinged' wording because that crops up again in the episode 13 script during a key moment.

first off, i wanna draw a parallel.

i've always considered suzie and owen direct mirrors - jack's two second-in-commands; his two judases. and personality wise, even, they're not too dissimilar either. but i think it's really intriguing their reactions to shooting their captain are almost switched here, between the scripts and the final cut of the eps. no mention of owen crying is in the end of days script. more on that in a second, actually. in the episode itself, he's crying as he shoots him; in the draft, he's angry. conversely, with suzie, when she shoots jack in the episode she's decisive about it, and even when she approaches gwen, she's crying a bit, but i wouldn't call it 'falling apart'.

owen, on the other hand, seems like he's falling apart when he shoots jack. just intriguing to me, 'cause i imagine it was probably a choice made by the actors and the directors as they learned the characters. making owen more emotional (befitting the way owen's explosive emotions cause problems, like, ten times), and suzie a little less (befitting the way we later find out she's like a stone cold mastermind, albeit still a weepy one dhfkds). also, once again, torchwood inverting gender norms. owen's a bit of a crybaby on the show, but he's markedly more stoic in the scripts, particularly the chibnall ones. (notably, ghost machine and out of time are both written by women, and he cries openly in those, both in the scripts and episodes. he originally didn't cry in end of days except when jack hugs him - in the final cut, i think he cries.... at least four or five times? he spends that entire episode with tears in his eyes, lol.) i imagine that was largely a choice made by burn as he got to know the character. he was like 'hm this guy seems like he should be crying always hes just having a Time' fhdskjfds

perfect example:

it's totally different in the episode itself. there's not even an attempt to push it down. and frankly i wouldn't say owen has a cold hard exterior either, he has a.... hm. something else entirely. prickly exterior, maybe. he's not cold, he's sharp at the edges. big difference. yknow, owen was originally imagined as much more of a traditional flawed manly-man protag, so i wonder if this was elements of, like, beta owen. like originally he was meant to be like a big hunky laddish asshole with no capacity for emotion and out of time was gonna be like his first time experiencing love and pain. n then they cast burn who's physically small (i mention his size bc owen just looks so small all the time i wanna keep him in my pocket where hes safe) and looks pretty when he cries fdshfjdsjfd and they went. ok nvm owen is getting mental illness bombed + it's gonna be obvious he's already been through a Lot. also theres that 'scared little boy' thing again. they want me dead

we see that characterization elsewhere in the ep, too.

there's a callousness here that's not in the final ep. when owen scans jack he looks... hm... like he's done what he needed to do and it's over now, but i wouldn't classify it as indifference, exactly. it's more like when you've stopped crying after a rlly bad sob sesh and ur sitting there kinda shell-shocked and exhausted and empty. mixed in with some 'nevermind that; i have a mission' considering, yknow, the context of that scene.

here we have places where that scared little boy explicitly comes out

also ianto here. owie. that brokeback mountain ass clothes sniff got me when i first watched the ep fsdhfjdk im not immune. oww. owen n tosh watching was an interesting initial inclusion. again w the constant voyeurism of each other's relationships. chibnall esp seemed oriented towards that. do u think he'd support the torchwood polycule agenda.

alright, getting away from meta about owen a bit, just some more interesting notes from the ep

this whole little speech got in the episode - except 'all part of the game'. (and also him grinning, as opposed to the wry little half-smile he does.) i think that 'all part of the game' is utterly fascinating, because it paints torchwood (and jack's control over it) in a veeeery specific light that, personally, i find super intriguing. ahhh.

the scripts repeatedly mention jack being cold/emotionless and that was really important for me to see because i always saw jack as extremely callous in the show but i've never seen anyone really touch on it so i thought it was just me fhsdkfjd. and 'alien' is also djskfdsk, esp considering originally, not all fans knew if jack was actually human or not, which makes me wonder if the people working on the show weren't fully sure either. but even as a human, jack's always an alien in another sense - he's not like them. especially in that scene, when they're defying him. mmm i will think of it forever.

and one final last bit from ep12 that didn't fit in before...

i just loveeee how owen is characterized in episode 12. that's my fav ep for a reason (well, the owen & ianto half of it is). i'm most intrigued by owen when he's a wounded snarling animal, and ianto being pushed to his limit compelled me too, and i havent been the same since lolol #owento4eva

when i tell you this shit made me bark at my fucking screen,

[source]

[someawkwardprose]

listened to In The Shadows with the discord gang; it gets spoilery thoughts under the cut:

okay first off: Eve Myles was INCREDIBLE; she was really good for pacing and emotion and it really drew me in - I stumbled a few times when I couldn't process what she was saying, but overall she was very clear and it was just. incredible to listen to. her actual accents were atrocious (sorry!!) but she had everyones characteristics down to pat, and her jack, once I got past the accent, felt like jack, not just something being read aloud. the writing itself was incredible beside her performance, and the music really made it perfect. from a technical and artistic standpoint - this was gorgeous

god the framing of Gwen talking to Owen and Tosh, the idea of the afterlife and hoping they're at peace wherever they are, "sleep well" IM OKAY IM JUST CRYING it was just so good!! I love Gwen and her way of processing her grief in relation to the afterlife, despite all evidence to the contrary, and the story really brought that all out

the whole religious imagery is. something that I find really difficult and I'm conflicted about how I feel - all of us have a different one in the group hah - but I do like what it means for both gwen and her greater narrative search for meaning, and the smaller exploration of ianto and his search for meaning and faith!!!

jack is just. SO good. the whole audio of him losing himself in the cells left me awestruck; I don't think I was coherent at any point during that scene. I really loved that his personal hell was hurting those he loved, then the world being consumed by the creatures that destroyed his life on boeshane, which really tied the whole nightmare together - I was distraught at the scene where he's just lost all hope and is drowning, right up until he is saved by Ianto's forgiveness. but I especially liked the first hell scene, the television: if you know me, you know how I feel about every mention of suzie costello!alex was a nice touch - I'm. conflicted about the gwen stuff because I feel like by this point, we're past this, esp since it's clearly after meat! however, the scene with john hart and ianto really stood out: we know that john is dangerous of course, but that specific fear of john not just hurting ianto but...everything about that has me 👀👀

of course there was no way I could talk about this without talking about ianto. I loved the dynamic he had with jack; his dynamic with tosh at the beginning, a proper 25 year old lad having a bit of fun; his dynamic with gwen, who so clearly loves him; and his dynamic with darren was really sweet!! (everyone who meets ianto falls in love with him and that's so valid. me too). i really liked the way he wasn't theorising the way everyone else was, but made the connection anyway, a kind of normal, everyday intelligence. but what really stuck out to me was the "forgiveness"/faith thing - validating all my headcanons I immediately have to write fics about this. also the way that ianto just. shut down when jack went missing, ahhh.

and the janto. what can I fucking say. THEY'RE IN LOVE YOUR HONOUR ITS RIGHT THERE. I still can't be coherent about this, but the power of gay love really reached through the veil and saved the day!! or ianto plucked jack out of gay superhell, pick your supernatural reference. they just love each other so much in this audio, it's going to haunt me. the idea that ianto can save jack through forgiving him...god. GOD.

small owen and tosh thoughts: tosh was so cute at the beginning!! and the whole desperation of trying to save Jack is just. so good!! and the way that owen is obviously attracted to jack and hates it is very funny actually I love that.

some things I just. did not agree with. csa mention ahead:

please dont villainise survivors/have this be the reason they do bad things. that's not how this works. csa is one of those things that survivors have to live with the societal shame for the rest of their lives, for something that wasnt theit fault. dont make them the bad guys. thanks.

also, again, mixed feelings about the religion thing. come back to me in a few days

very disillusioned with the good cop narrative. I know torchwood is a product of it's time but hhh. criminal justice system is not something I'm particularly comfortable with.

finally: it felt like there were too many endings, too many narrative boxes, but it did tie things together nicely so. conflicted about that I guess.

overall: 8/10!! stars removed from the mentioned stuff, if the villain hadnt been That I would probably bump it right up. very worth listening to!!

[dominique-mini]

i read this whole conversation and not gonna lie im also like "adhd brain go brrrrrr cant remember what just red"

but i wanted to give my opinion as well ! (no one asked for it but ANYWAYS)

i think the perception of ianto jack has isn't that he's too morally good or innocent, but that he's simply too young to be such a skilled shoplifter. maybe it's just the impression i have and not true at all, but i think it makes sense considering that jack had a somewhat good childhood (until all the shit with grey happened, of course. but he was what there? 13?).

[ok i didn't hear ALL torchwood audiodramas or read all the comics and the books so if anything im saying here is canonically wrong;;; pls be patient with me alright]

im not saying jack can't comprehend what having a tough childhood is. lets be honest, the man lived in england during the two industrial revolutions, he saw lots of kids getting it ROUGH. however, i do think he never engaged with someone with childhood problems as deeply as he did with ianto.

and as you said, sammy, i think he never imagined ianto having that background. in my opinion, in the beginning jack saw him as just a random guy. life was never a bed of roses, someone else's lawn was always greener, but the earlier part was pretty okay. the basic shit, just like what jack had.

but that wasn't the truth, was it? and i think it honestly caught jack by surprise. to find out ianto was a juvenile delinquent- not because he was a young bratt that wanted to rebel against his lovingly parents. i read somewhere that it was ianto's father who taught him to shoplift, so he was literally groomed for crime by one of his parents.

BUT jack didn't know this, did he? like, he didn't even know! he was probably so confused as to why ianto jones learned to shoplift at the same age jack himself was playing with his brother and dad. yvonne rather picks the young, but why was this twenty two year old working for Torchwood One? like, what the hell???

so yeah for me sometimes jack thinks that ianto's too young to have lived and felt certain things. (but again that's just my opinion)

futhermore, about ianto being morally grey, i think he is a fierce protector. like, in the way he would kill in cold blood to protect the team or innocent citizens of cardiff. the way he forgave jack for giving jasmine away, and how he wasn't so mad at him when he killed mary. that one hit close to home because of lisa, but he was also capable of seeing mary as a threat, as someone who would hurt tosh, and so she had to be stopped. maybe ianto wouldn't have killed mary, but he respected jack's decision, for he was older and more experienced with aliens. what if they had let mary live and she came back?

and please, remember: it was ianto's dad who taught him how to shoplift. this serves to PROVE that he wasnt taught the difference between right or wrong by his parents at his formative years (which. isn't exactly wrong to our current worldviews, but remember ianto was raised in cardiff in the late 80s. the general view was that shoplifting was bad)

yeah of course, people are different, but let me tell you from personal experience that the emotional strength values and morals holds on people aren't as universal as everyone thinks. which means;;; if you aren't taught that shit when you're little, it's more likely they won't mean much to you.

and YEAH MAYBE im projecting because im mentally insane but !!! i think of ianto much under these lenses. i think he will do the most unspeakable and heinous things to protect the ones he loves, or the ones he thinks are innocent. jack can perfectly understand that because he does the exact same thing. that's the main reason they understand and respect each other so well. most of the times, ianto can understand what jack's doing, for he would do if not the exact same, then very similar; the same goes with jack in relation to ianto.

that's all i have for today folks, thanks for coming to my ted talk.

Ianto shoplifting becomes so much funnier to me when I think about all the times Jack is like “I’ve corrupted you Ianto” or “there’s no way my precious Ianto could EVER do something morally grey or crime related” meanwhile Ianto has stolen so much shit and would Actually Kill A Person when provoked like yeah Jack, Ianto’s super innocent, whatever helps ya sleep at night son 🤣

~ @sammys-magical-au

Hmm, I don't really see Jack thinking like that? Personally, I think Jack knows better than to put people on a pedestal after so many years of seeing the best and worst of humanity and he's already seen Ianto make a lethal mistake when he snuck in a partially converted Lisa into the Hub (which resulted in two deaths before it was contained and could have been so, so much worse).

I do think that Jack sees Ianto as a good person (and he's right) and that he struggles with guilt over his own past and some of the things he's had to do, mistakes he's made, and what Ianto might think of him if he ever were to find out, but I think Jack knows better than most that being in Torchwood and having to make the sort of decisions they need to make negates any chance of any of them ever claiming that kind of pristine moral purity; they are all at times morally grey, it is all part of the job. When you deal with what Torchwood has to deal with, you can’t always get away with picking a clean, easy, sanitised solution. Because all too often there is no such thing. Only messy and difficult options and it’s up to them to decide which one is the least horrible one and which ones they can live with—or which ones will mean the people in Cardiff or the world get to live. (And in my opinion, this is to Ianto's credit. Claiming moral purity when you've never had to make a hard decision in your life is a pretty hollow achievement, but being a good person who tries and keeps trying and does his best when you're faced with tough choices for a living, and choosing to keep going to work every day and give it your all when it's so costly to do so shows a much stronger moral backbone.)

I don’t think it ever really crossed Jack’s mind that he might ‘corrupt’ Ianto? (Nor do I think that a little shoplifting would qualify as corrupting, lmao.) Disappoint him, definitely. Trap him into a life where he has to choose the greater good over his own interests, maybe. Not be enough or not being able to give him the life or the commitment that Ianto deserves? Probably. But corrupt him? Jack would be more worried about Ianto hating him if Jack has to make a terrible choice... except that Ianto is the only one who doesn’t hate him for letting Jasmine go with the fairies, which leads me to believe that Ianto is unlikely to do this, because Ianto understands hard choices and sacrifice and fighting for the greater good, and based on that episode, I think Ianto’s personal code of ethics might align with Jack’s better than the rest of the team. He’ll argue if he feels Jack is wrong and he might try to stop him or even go behind his back if he’s convinced there is a better way. But condemn him? Hate him? I don’t see it happening.

More to the point: of course Ianto would do morally grey stuff, up to and including killing someone. He's Torchwood. Ianto's shoplifting is funny and a little unexpected, but it's a small thing compared to what he's had to do for Torchwood. I think what makes it so fun to think about is that it's part of what I think of as Ianto's teenage rebellion and it's a contrast to how Ianto presents himself in canon, at least superficially. He's an estate brat who had a goth phase and stole shit and did typical teenage stuff only a few degrees to the left because of his complicated home situation (hence the teenage rebellion part, which was probably just him trying to find his place in the world + trying to find the point of it all when he was growing up and approaching adulthood in a tough situation). Anyway, I went on a tangent a little bit, but I think about Ianto a lot <3