ignaciopuigcarles

[ganymedesclock]

I know Zelda lore is generally complicated and all, but if you know of the manga (it is a prequel to Skyward Sword and considered a origin story of sorts) what are your thoughts on Hylia and Demise? and the chosen hero aka The First Link?

Some would interpret it as more of a origin story of hylian legend, so like something that is more biased and very different than the true historical happenings of an ancient era, so shrouded in legends very much.

IMO Zelda lore is also immensely take-it-or-leave-it. I've always been a bit lukewarm on The Great Zelda Timeline, since I feel like it's more logistical to think of the games as effectively self-contained AUs of each other with a few threads of continuity that can give context.

I'll also say that I know little of the various manga adaptations, but the skyward sword manga in particular doesn't really appeal to me; I know enough of it to not particularly want to know more. I’m not a fan of its version of Hylia being almost exactly like Zelda, especially when canonical details in Skyward Sword imply Hylia was not really humanlike at all- the “feathers” from her wings look more like chunks of crystal shrapnel.

I've got my own headcanons / reads into that gap, which are- much like canon- completely take-it-or-leave it, but I think they’re fun. I will put those down under a cut, here, because they get long.

So my major read on the events predating Skyward Sword, and thus predating "everything" in the Zelda mythos, is that the golden gods are effectively the big bang. Nothing 'as we know it' exists before them, everything 'as we know it' exists after them. For a while, they overlap with their creations; this is where their names and predilections become known to a degree. Thus, there's a kind of dynasty of gods- the first dynasty being Din/Nayru/Farore.

This ultimately ends in the creation of the triforce- the point where the gods exited the world. Eldritch artifact, basically a hole in reality that leaks infinite primal potential. Simultaneous evidence that "the throne" is empty, and the tools of creation used to shape the world.

A take I have at this point is that both Hylia and Demise are worshiped like gods, but they're basically powerful natural spirits. But they're kind of major contenders, and begin fighting each other over the Triforce. Hylia has her supporters and creations, Demise has his, and they’re both, IMO, flawed.

Hylia is calculating. This is basically textual in Skyward Sword- she appears to value leaving as little as possible up to chance (hence Fi as a guide to Link, who seems to have been trained to disregard her own emotions as much as possible) and by the works she leaves behind alone, she verges on pretty heartless- the entire Lanayru Mine society consists of sapient robots who are clearly people, and cherished by the Thunder Dragon and vice versa, and, um... are obviously dying and collapsing into an inevitable disrepair they are, a certain degree aware of. Skipper does not even leave his duty to try and go home using the borrowed time the Timeshift stones give him so that he can be with his family when that borrowed time runs out... and it does, because we never see those guys in any “future” game.

Basically, Hylia values order, but not autonomy. If she has her way, it will never even occur to you to contradict her or speak against her. She cares, but her model of caring is irreconcilable with human free will or determination. She’s seen as the benefactor of the hylians, who took their names in her honor, but Skyloft from what we see of it is a little less like a sanctuary and a little more like the Human Zoo from Steven Universe- especially down to that it was used to cultivate Link and Zelda. The Loftwings are even ostensibly divine forces that specifically observe and manage each denizen.

Fi is arranged to self-terminate so she won’t contaminate anything other than her objective. Zelda is given the ability to realize Hylia’s goals at a key point such that if she has an attack of self-loathing on recognizing Hylia’s memories, this, too, serves her larger game plan- it in fact works better if Zelda doesn’t want to be Zelda right then, because she’s just gotten Hylia’s memories uploaded into her real hard. (We’ll get back to Zelda)

Meanwhile, Demise enjoys freedom, but not in a way that really seems to respect people. Ghirahim, compared to Fi, is wildly unfettered; left to his own devices, to pursue his own interests and opinions. He’s free. And Demise crushes him.

Likewise, when talking to Link, Demise is polite, even charmingly sporting. Unlike any other Zelda boss before or since, he textually in-universe suggests that you should prepare as best as you can and take as much time as you need, while agreeing to wait in one specific location. In polar contrast to Hylia, he clearly does not have a grand divine plan. He intends to strip Link down by force exactly the way he did Ghirahim, but he won’t enjoy it if he doesn’t give Link the chance to waste all of Ghirahim’s hard work stalling and forcing Link to a standstill. Demise wants Link to be as gorged up with freedom and power as possible... so that he can be the greater force and shatter it.

This factors in to their metatextual successors, Zelda and Ganondorf. Zelda is anticipated, cultivated, and extremely controlled. Even at the extreme endpoint of the timeline as we’re aware of it, Zelda is invoking Hylia for power. This, logically, shouldn’t be the case- Hylia is completely terminated. Anything that Hylia had, is now Zelda’s, via birthright and the ritual that awakened Skyward Sword Zelda, the very first one. Zelda’s a divine-blooded demigod; she ‘honestly’ comes by all the power she must need.

But Hylia never really meant Zelda to be a worthy successor; simply a Favored Heir, who, for her favoritism, has the best prize Hylia gives all of her most important servants: the prize of being completely preordained. Known. Controlled. Nayru seems to be the “natural” god of time given Oracle of Ages; but Hylia seems to position herself as a conqueror of time. She viewed Zelda as an extension of herself; simply a continuation who would behave in certain, useful ways- human ways, sentimental ways, that are inaccessible to Hylia herself, to love Link and be loved by him- and then when the time is right she wakes up and knows all of her instructions and will act perfectly, because you were Hylia all along.

Conversely Ganondorf pretty obviously hates the gods period, no exception, no “your god’s worse than my god”. He wants things to be his and his alone. He’s not even a favored son to Demise’s curse, if we are supposed to believe- as seems to be the implication- that said curse is responsible for every Zelda antagonist that is a blight to Hyrule; there are plenty that have zero connection to Ganondorf, and it suggests Demise’s Incarnation is a concept that abandons Ganondorf, regularly even. If there’s anything Ganondorf has from Demise, it’s things like the title of demon king, that seems to be Ganondorf’s own efforts that pull him over the gap.

The one time Ganondorf succeeds by the obvious assistance of a higher power, it is when the Triforce of Power intervenes on his behalf in Twilight Princess, and in the same game, we see Ganondorf desecrate and behead the statues of the Triforce Goddesses in Hyrule Castle’s throne room.

So- getting back to Skyward Sword and the god war.

Hylia claims she was entrusted directly with the triforce. We hear this claim through the story told by her subordinates. It seems to line up with that Ghirahim- the chattiest member of Demise’s forces by virtue of being last man standing for most of the game- makes it clear Hylia’s incarnation is his biggest problem to resurrecting Demise.

But, there’s a couple of threads to spot in this narrative, and those are the things that make me think Link’s position is complicated, both regarding the triforce and otherwise.

Hylia cannot use the triforce. This is explicit. If it was truly given to her for keeping, she’s at bare minimum using bad faith workarounds of instructions she was given or parameters set on her. We don’t have Impa as an entity informed of the war who understands and agrees with Hylia make the wish on her behalf; instead a hero is cultivated. Link is a trap for the triforce.

And Link is obviously cultivated. He’s marked from birth by the Red Loftwing. Zelda’s speech when Link finally catches up to her and she gains Hylia’s memories have her outright say that Hylia used Link. That Zelda’s existence is a trap for Link.

Now... to me, I feel like this has fascinating context for the fact that Link and Zelda have this omnipresent yet often stilted relationship. Almost every game ends with the implication Link and Zelda are together now, a couple now; games that give him over love interests tend to come with this obvious subtext of “but you’ll leave her to be with Zelda, right? Or if you won’t be with Zelda, you won’t be with anyone,” and even in isolation, in Majora’s Mask, the Song of Time taught by Zelda and the Ocarina of Time given by her are the most essential thing in-game to proceed.

But also, there’s a bunch of times Link either optionally or explicitly tried to be in a relationship with someone else? In Skyward Sword you can flirt with Peatrice and while the game clearly insinuates this is a fake, ‘mean’ relationship unlike Link’s devotion to Zelda, it never out and says it. Link could be totally serious. He definitely was serious in Breath of the Wild, where Mipha’s working on their engagement rings, which no unserious couple would be talking about, and the wedding’s only called off on account of the bride’s abrupt death... which her kin even take out poorly on Link.

I don’t mean this as an anti-zelink screed, but I think it’s interesting to me- and really morbid- that Link and Zelda are implied in Skyward Sword to be cosmically ordained star-crossed soulmates. Link is destined to be Zelda’s symbolic groom, but also, their happiness and union are actually optional. The real thing that’s mandated, that Hylia counted on, was Link loving Zelda and despairing at losing her. Link, running after Zelda into certain danger. Link, loving Zelda, and Zelda being loved by Link, as a trap.

This is the main way I diverge from the manga’s take of Hylia and the zeroth hero as lovers- because I feel like the fact that Hylia, who herself does not seem to value emotion directly (less than Demise, who deliberately wants to get an emotional response out of you) is so concerned that Link must love Zelda, that he must know and chase Zelda, that Hylia’s will has to be distant to him...

Implies Hylia was perhaps scared of Link. Which is silly; she’s a goddess and he was not even really destined yet. She was scared of a hypothetical person she was molding into a template, or if ‘scared’ isn’t the right term, she was concerned that something might. go wrong. with Link, if she started selecting people for these qualities.

As if, perhaps, from the original person Hylia was seeking to cultivate again, there were actually qualities about the zeroth hero that Hylia didn’t like very much. That the zeroth hero may have been strong, and brave, and deserving of the title of hero... but did not love Hylia, and was not devoted to her.

The zeroth hero also seems vanished from Skyloft’s history. Only Hylia is stated to have saved them.

But things come in threes in this franchise, even if one of the three is disgraced or hidden. 

If Zelda is Hylia’s favored heir, whether or not she wants this and often explicitly not wanting this, and Ganondorf is Demise’s (figurative) discarded bastard whose frustration and ambition allow the parent to parasite off of him from beyond an absolute grave...

What is Link?

Let’s talk about Majora’s Mask.

A friend of mine exposed me to the notion that Majora’s Mask is kind of a dying-dream game; that it takes place overwhelmingly within Link’s mind. Actually looking at the imagery and word choice used by this game, and how many characters inexplicably repeat (Cremia and Romani’s unnatural resemblance to Malon; Koume and Kotake as benevolent NPCs who seem to never acknowledge their previous run-in with Link; Ganondorf’s face leering down from the moon), this would seem to make sense.

Especially the Happy Mask Salesman, who as textually as the game can get, is functionally a psychopomp and definitely has some kind of agenda that makes him very pushy towards Link, but in a way that feels distinct from any other character nudging you into a quest.

Majora’s Mask seems to be illuminating the death of the Hero of Time, not the first Link but the ‘ur’-Link that out-of-universe came to define modern Link. There are two major, powerful figures in this game, one that’s omnipresent and the other that is much more enigmatic and missable.

The first is Majora. We are introduced to Majora only through its death mask. Implicitly, like Darmani and Mikau and the Deku Butler’s Son, Majora is dead. Majora is also immensely powerful, and was used by others to curse their enemies.

Unable to rest or be at peace, Majora has tumbled through time. Its current host is Skull Kid, an innocent child from the woods who was driven by loneliness. Skull Kid has fairy companions, and also, feels that he was abandoned by his friends, because they departed to the corners of the world to become divine pillars protecting from harm. They are only reunited in event of catastrophe.

All of these things are traits of Ocarina of Time Link, actually. He was also, originally, a child from the woods; we can figure he was almost definitely lonely when everyone in his society had a fairy except him, when he was actually a hylian among kokiri and lacked words to articulate why he felt unlike others; Saria was kind to him but most others are at best indifferent and at worst, Mido. Much is made in OoT that he cannot be with Saria and this becomes true no matter where he goes; he can’t be with Ruto, or Darunia, or Impa, or Nabooru, or Rauru. Just about anyone who’s notably kind to him perishes or ascends to become a sage. He is not like them.

And Link is told that there is this specialness, this thing that is beyond him and older than him, but it becomes core to his identity until after a while it’s the only thing anyone sees: the role of the Hero.

“But Clockie,” you might say, “the hero is a good thing, and Majora was used to curse others!”

To which I say: in Wind Waker, The Soul of The Hero is explicitly and repeatedly tied to the wind. His legend survives ‘on the wind’s breath’. Link is given a powerful royal artifact, that the king of Hyrule used to command the wind.

And at the very end of Wind Waker, Ganondorf talks about the wind. He lays it out as plainly as possible that part of what he coveted in Hyrule was that the wind favored it. The winds over Hyrule bring it peace and prosperity. That same wind, over Ganondorf’s world, brings death and destruction. This is... never argued with. In fact, at the very end of Wind Waker, as Ganondorf lays dying at the hands of the hero yet again, he cracks a bitter smirk and says that the wind is blowing.

To the civilization that profited from Majora’s Mask, it probably seemed like a blessing until it became impossible to contain. While we never hear about the hero going rogue or turning on the people around him, it is notable that Wind Waker’s incarnation of the hero’s myth in particular features people cursing the hero’s absence. Just like with Majora, the prosperity given by the Hero fails.

It’s also notable that as a villain, Skull Kid seems to do an awful lot of sidequests, doesn’t he? He messes with others’ trivial affairs quite a bit.

So, I think that Majora, in Majora’s Mask, is almost a form of Dark Link- he embodies things Link fears about himself and the hero’s role.

And then there’s the other entity- the Fierce Deity.

The Fierce Deity, unlike Majora, is completely erased from history. We do not know who or what they are.

We know that they are dead, because they’re a mask.

We know Link only gains access to them if he faces the questions of the moon children- questions that seem to be interrogating both Link’s feelings, and the nature of the Hero, but one in particular involves asking Link if that’s really his face.

The Fierce Deity is otherwise never seen in Hyrule’s pantheon. Their fallen regalia surfaces on rare occasions.

They are stated to have overwhelming dark power, and seem only willing to manifest through the mask to fight a great enemy. And unlike any other spirit Link connects with in Majora’s Mask, they never speak.

The mask has an uncanny resemblance to Link.

I think that Majora’s Mask is a point where Link is accessing his precursor.

I think that in the original god war, there was a third contender.

Hylia, Demise, and Majora.

Majora, the Fierce Deity, presenting as neither a goddess nor a demon king, an entity that aligned themselves with mortals and brought prosperity and security to them. A creature of dark power, who nonetheless became known as a Hero.

At some point during the war, Majora aligned themselves with Hylia. They may have had their own designs on the triforce. They may have seen her as the lesser of two evils. After all, compared to Demise, Hylia just wants to control people; she doesn’t want to crush them.

But the key distinction here is, Majora did not love Hylia. If they may have, they did not let this stop them from seeing her as almost as much of a problem as Demise. They would bring her prosperity, but only up to a point. Then, they would part ways.

Majora faces Demise. Demise is pleased to have an opponent, and facilitates Majora, perhaps far more than he should have.

Demise crushes Majora, but not without sustaining serious injuries.

Majora dies; mortals and smaller spirits grieve the loss of their hero. A death mask may or may not be forged in their likeness.

The stalemate is broken; a weakened Demise is no match for Hylia. She embeds him in the sealed grounds, and becomes the decisive victor and remaining survivor. The die is cast; from this point onward, the existence of Hyrule as the dominant land and the worship of the golden gods becoming synonymous with the worship of Hylia has its foundations here.

But Demise isn’t gone; he’s a god. He’s a little hard to kill, if he wants to stick around. And Majora does not want to stick around; and forcing them to will almost certainly exacerbate their connection.

If only, Hylia thinks, there was a useful way to contain all that was important about Majora- their valor and great strength- in a form that was more pliant. She has worshippers. She has the mortal entities that Majora once cared for.

That’s right. Majora cares about mortals, don’t they? They fought to save and protect others. A Majora who doesn’t remember that they lived wild and disobedient, a Majora whose uncanny power of twilight is tempered and weakened, a Majora who grew up among Hylia’s chosen people so as to carefully control who he gets attached to, and to ensure among those attachments, there is a friend- a dear friend, a beloved friend- who he will fight to stay close to, no matter what.

Who is not the entity that they once distrusted, but who will, predictably and perfectly, act as a continuation of that entity’s will, and because her love is real, she will be so, so sorry about it, and hurting so much, that it’s impossible he would ever betray her.

How many times is Link in essence, told to wake up, often by a manifestation of Zelda?