#and a lot of the ppl i interact with (though certainly not all) are women so i always feel weird talking abt my interests/opinions

[rolandkaros]

i’m tired. why can’t i consume things normally. or at least consume them abnormally but in the way that other people consume them abnormally and not in this weird isolating way where i feel the need to overexplain myself whenever i talk about the thing i’m consuming so people understand me and my thought process

[transmechanicus]

I've really enjoy following you this past year and I wanted to ask for insight on something because I respect your viewpoints. I want to stay on anon because this is something that has caused me a lot of internal pain and i am not confident enough to go public about it. I started calling myself non-binary back when I was 22 (I'm 32 now) and due to autism + polycystic ovarian syndrome giving me a more androgynous appearance due to excess testosterone, I've felt at odds with "cis womanhood." my inability to wholly conform to what is expected of me is something I have grappled with my entire life. I have regularly felt that I am not a "real woman," thus adopting the label. My genuine attraction to women as a bisexual person is perhaps the only thing that links me to womanhood. There are times where I have felt that I don't have a gender at all whatsoever and that trying to apply one to myself is only a cause for stress and anxiety. I have no desire to transition and there are individual aspects of estrogen I have enjoyed experiencing. Lately i have been feeling at odds with the nb label, and as I interact with more and more trans and transitioning non-binary people, I feel like I am a fraud taking up space. I sometimes wonder if I am in spaces that are not for me and I certainly don't want to claim any labels that are not mine to claim, especially as trans healthcare is constantly under attack in the US and that is something that does not directly affect my rights. I love and value the trans friends that I've made but I worry that I may have been calling myself a term that I don't have any right to use, as though I am a "tourist," or something along those lines, trivializing meaningful labels from an already heavily oppressed community. I don't want to cause any harm or pain to the trans people I care about by adopting a label that doesn't fit. I do not know how to move forward from here.

You are not causing harm or pain by identifying in a way that best describes your experiences from your own perspective. Everyone’s relationship, or lack thereof, with their gender is their own to describe as they wish, and in whatever capacity i can I would like to absolve you from any responsibility to transition or otherwise change your behavior to Justify identifying as nonbinary. Nonbinary is a massive umbrella term encompassing a wide variety of gender experiences, and it is meant to provide you this emotional shelter that you are clearly in need of. You are not depriving anyone else by identifying as nonbinary even if you have no plans to pursue transitioning in any capacity. If you are happy and comfortable being around other trans nonbinary ppl because you have things in common with them, you have all the more reason to stay in those spaces, in addition to the fact that those are your friends who love you and want to spend time with you. Please try to be gentle and kind to yourself, however you choose to identify that feels right to you, you have my support and you will always be welcome in the trans community, as a member or as a beloved friend❤️

[burning-sol]

Too much of a pussy to interact the post directly but um. Re: genderbends and feminism

I think you’re entirely right to bring up how easy that passive hostility can become transphobia but I also think the idea that most genderbends are trans hcs is a bit of a spiders George moment. We (you and I) have cultivated a space we feel safe in that is predominantly populated by trans people who will talk about trans things- in the wider fandomspace there are still a lot of cis people who completely misunderstand what a genderbend has the potential to be. Obviously the years have brought good things and a lot has changed for the better, but there are still a lot of people who do in fact genderbend a dude character they like into a cis girl and you can tell by the way they write her they have no idea what they’re doing and generally little understanding of girls or girlhood. But attacking all genderbends and making the assumption that they’re all that is certainly not the way to go about it; like you said, a lot of people actually have trans hcs and sort of reclaim the r63 trend. But it is important to recognize there’s a larger problem of media not having girl characters with depth, or having those characters but they’re massively set aside for a dude. There’s no shame in enjoying the guy character more, speaking from experience, like you said let ppl on the internet do what they want. But also indulge taking a deeper look at the women, and recognize the bigger issue. I will defend every badly written woman with everything I have but I will also defend every fandom-decided transwoman with everything I have as well. They’re sisters. Super Sorry if this is a weird ask I felt like adding my perspective, bc ur right but I see. More

No need to belittle yourself, I know how anxiety inducing it can be to reply to something off anon, what matters is that you were polite and thoughtful. So lemme address your point. Post being talked about for context.

I think I did misword my post, you're absolutely right, but what I was trying to get across is that I suppose I hypothesise a lot of "genderbends" may only be perceived like that from the outside without the neccessary context. This is based on how I reflected on my own headcanons and how they can be outwardly percieved, and also my experience in fandom. For example, my interpretation of an AU character (William Wight) could easily be viewed as a genderbend without the context of personal thoughts and the fact I headcanon William Wisp (the og character) as PRE-transition, especially since another character from that AU I have genderbent. So it wasn't strictly about genderbending actually being trans headcanons, it's about how if you're without context, genderbending can be a misinterpretation of a trans headcanon.

But you're right, I too closely conflated them, giving overall the wrong message about genderbending and invalidating the feelings of people who just enjoy the trope without the trans aspect. There's a lot of people out there who genderbend not knowing anything about transness, that could easily be a misinterpretation, it was based on my experiences and not any hard data. I also projected onto the people reblogging that post that they wouldn't have the eye to make a disceration between the two.. Which, I have no clue either way, who knows. But thankfully, I don't think any of this takes away from the point being made or hurts anyone too severely. I hope that anyone who feels misrepresented can still understand the post regardless of how I may have offended them, because the underlying transphobia is the bigger issue. And also, to reinforce it again, I AGREE with OP in the right context, I think it's a real phenomena, but I try to be critical of posts if they start to widely circulate without anyone pointing out what can be a potentially harmful idea.

Also to consider as a note though: genderbending can be a precursor to being trans as a form of experimentation. So yes, it is still worth taking into the consideration what you're saying about people who genderbend characters, you have no idea what they're going through even if they claim not to be trans, things can change. But even further beyond that, I focused on trans people for obvious reasons, it's shitty to be targeting a minorty.. But if you're nodding along with my post like, "oh yeah, it's okay if TRANS people genderbend characters, but ANYONE ELSE isn't allowed to" umg. Well. That can still be transphobia, or just generally a dick thing to do. Again, I just think we shouldn't assume that misogyny is involved when there are other incredibly viable reasons for genderbending.

I didn't even bring it up because I didn't want to tbh, but, also a lot of people who genderbend are just.. Into that. That's also a notable reason but again, that wasn't the point.

Btw, this is all coming from the fandom where people rampantly post abt an mlm ship and overlook the other lead that is girl. So. I first hand have experienced the EXACT issue being discussed, but I still wouldn't wanna go and make the wide assertions OP was making. In the end, we are all people on the internet in our niches making assumptions about wider groups even if we don't actually know jack shit about each other. Hence I preach love and tolerate, and to generally not judge people.

I hope this was a decent response and maybe even added something to my previous post. Or maybe this was a jumbled schlock of nothing that went off the rails, I'm sorry if that's the case.

[diminuel]

Listen, I've never understood (or quite agreed) with the idea of Bottom!only Cas, but, if people think this is a problem, they've never ventured into the kink memes. There are people out here shipping well, look up marvel & the HTP if you really want a shock, but point is, those ppl are happy to ship & let ship. If you were out here telling people it was your way or the highway, I can see why feelings would be hurt but you're just expressing a personal preference, for FICTIONAL characters. FFS.

Which is to say, you’ve finally run into the DESTIHELL part of fandom. The part that the bronlies and wincest ppl despise so much. The loud screaming part that insists destiel be canon OR ELSE. I miss when fandom was on LJ and everybody knew how shipping worked and how to treat each other with respect. :( (I did hop on twitter real quick and YIKES. those ppl need to take a chill pill. Maybe watch some ru paul)

Well… Bottom!Cas only is relative…? I only read or write or draw it, I don’t think only bottom!Cas is acceptable, imaginable, possible, good ;3 Just to clear that up.

Oh, I know the kink memes. *Elrond voice* I was there, Gandalf. But I also think many people who were involved in the discussion know of kinks. And there seems to be a bit of a tension between saying that kinks are acceptable to have and enjoy and saying that some kinks are rooted in harmful stereotypes. And sometimes people said the same things. Kinks are good, kinks are bad. So I guess there’s still an ongoing grappling with own kinks and others kinks and “Your Kink is not my Kink” approach of fandom sometimes gets lost.

I think there’s a bit of a mash up of several topics that might have made discussions even more charged? Perpetuating stereotypes in queer couples, the position of women enjoying slash ships, kink and kink shaming/ policing, the impact of fanfic and fanart on real life, freedom of creative engagement with topics VS criticism, plenty of interpersonal tension, heaps of yikes shared all around and probably even more things I didn’t see ALL mixed together into this little storm… It was too big to unravel and I feel people argued on different fronts, depending on your background and attitude… Lots of things probably don’t have anything to do with me, but it’s easier to have someone specific to make an example of…

I tought Destihellers was a mocking term people used to mean everyone shipping Destiel? I’ve been called a Destiheller too for doing nothing but shipping Destiel and I’m not Destiel be canon or else. ;3 (Though I’d like them to be canon. But my shipping exist independently of what happens in canon. I don’t need permission from canon or from actors or fellow fans to ship. I feel there was a shift in shippers interacting with canon where shippers now expect their ship to be canon and have people endorse it. There’s an intersection between canon/ people invovled in making the show and fans that hasn’t existed in that way when I got into fandom) In any case, I don’t know if the people who were invovled in the debate were part of a certain group within people shipping Destiel or anything like that. But I generally wouldn’t give anyone the title Destiheller. I still think we should be a bit more supportive of each other (no matter the ship we sail on).

I’m torn about missing LJ. Because spn_gossip and LJ rants (I don’t remember if that was actually the name) weren’t particularly inviting environments. I miss a time in fandom where people weren’t so eager to prove how up to date on latest issues they were by calling out people. Sometimes obsessively. I understand wanting to correct a narrative by proving what has actually been said instead of falsly following claims and misreported things by keeping track of receipts or whatever. But fact checking was certainly not a luxury that was granted to me in this whole fiasco *lol*

I think I drifted off topic…

[freedom-of-fanfic]

I'm curious for your thoughts on this subject. I dislike the way antis use the term "yaoi" and "fujoshi" since I feel like these terms were created to mean specific things (in Japanese culture) and antis often apply it without considering differences between slash and yaoi. Also, I dislike the way they use yaoi to pretty much mean fetishizing mlm/content, and fujoshi as fetishizing women since both terms are from Japan and I feel weird seeing these terms associated with fetishizing.

I also am really bothered by the way English fandom has adopted genre words from Japan to mean ‘the worst version of [x]/fans of [x]’. it feels like a form of looking down anything coming from Japan/Japanese culture and treating Japanese culture as the source of these ‘worst versions’.

(a lot of what follows is from light research I’ve done over the years and personal experience. It’s my opinion and experiences rather than a closely researched and heavily sourced essay.)

I think the reason for this weird English-speaking take is two-fold:

Americans/western culture interprets the Japanese subgenre ‘yaoi’ and its Japanese creators & fans through the lens of American/western culture and finds them wanting

the reinterpretation of the concept of ‘yaoi’ and ‘fujoshi’ in American/western culture and the unfortunate associations created as a result

Without going into historical depth, any western - particularly American - interaction with Japanese culture is an unequal one. Besides the ignominious end of WWII, the American army was the means of forcing Japan to reopen their borders in the 1850′s. And frankly: western culture has been obsessed with Japanese culture (and other East Asian cultures) for literal centuries. and we’ve been taking their cool shit and appropriating and bastardizing it for just as long.[$] 

the way that the words ‘yaoi’ and ‘fujoshi’ are being treated now is, in my opinion, an extension of this.

(this post was heavily updated on August 2-3rd, 2018, to add a lot more about the word ‘fujoshi’: it originally focused more on ‘yaoi’. huge thanks to blogs like @rottenboysclub​, @oh-suketora​, and @satans-tiddies​ for all the information they’ve put out on tumblr about these words.[%] )

American understanding of yaoi in Japan & its Japanese fans

Americans don’t understand yaoi or fujoshi in their original Japanese context, but we belittle and denigrate it as if we do.

BL (Boy’s Love) and its subgenre ‘yaoi’ seem to have a similar relationship to Japanese fans as ‘slashfic’ and mlm fiction does to American fans. But that doesn’t mean we understand yaoi/BL in the context of Japanese culture or that we interact with yaoi/BL the same way Japanese fans do.  Same for the word ‘fujoshi’ - a term that seems to have been coined in a derogatory context but was ‘reclaimed’ by the very female-aligned fans that it was meant to denigrate. (but more on ‘fujoshi’ later.)

In Japan, the word ‘yaoi’ is more equivalent to a Japanese acronym for the English ‘pwp’ (plot? what plot?) than a word referring to mlm. Like ‘pwp’ in its original usage, ‘yaoi’ indicates a fanwork or small-time/one-shot original work (doujinshi) that has little to no plot and/or focuses almost exclusively on the sex part of a fictional ship, though ‘yaoi’ is specifically applied to mlm-focused ‘plotless’ fanworks*.

(*it’s worth noting that - as mentioned in the wiki link above - the word ‘yaoi’ does not, on its own, have a meaning attached to BL. it has more to do with who adopted the acronym for common use: specifically, BL doujin writers.)

‘yaoi’ has fallen out of use in Japanese fan circles. ‘BL’ - ‘boy’s love’ - is the word which is more of an umbrella term for mlm in the way ‘slash’ is in English-speaking fandom, covering everything from explicit sex to soft pre-romance hand-holding. however, ‘yaoi’ was the word that became known as the Japanese-equivalent mlm fan genre to ‘slash’ in English-speaking circles, which had the unfortunate effect of leading English-speaking animanga fans to compare only the most tropey, explicit mlm content from Japanese fandom against all varieties of mlm ‘slash’ content from English-speaking fandom.

This was comparing apples to oranges; a more equivalent Western fandom comparison to Japanese ‘yaoi’ would probably be silly oneshot crackfic and kinkmeme fics. But the misapprehension was already in place and only got worse as some of the tropes of the explicit versions of yaoi genre doujinshi became increasingly known - the ‘seme’ (’top’) and ‘uke’ (’bottom’) and their supposedly male/female-like roles, the ‘rapey’ tendency to show the uke as crying and reluctant under an aggressive seme, etc.

These kinds of tropes don’t sit well with a modern American audience. And Japanese bl fans have had their own conversations about whether bl/yaoi is harmful to or supportive of Japanese gay culture (and long before Western / English-speaking fandom circles were having them, at least in a widespread way.)

But Americans are ill-equipped to judge the situation from the sidelines. To provide a few examples of things we generally don’t have cultural context on to truly understand yaoi (BL, tbh) and its Japanese fans:

LGBTQ+ culture in Japan

the Japanese flavor of gender essentialism

social and societal pressures on Japanese people, particularly women (trans, cis, and intersex) & nb ppl who identify as femme-aligned

what it means to be ‘feminine’ in Japan

strongly gendered roles in the bedroom (sex in Japan)

Without knowing all this, how can we understand why yaoi (or BL) is constructed the way it is? how can we understand what draws people to it, or how it sits with Japanese LGBTQ people?

But because many yaoi tropes don’t sit well with Americans in the context of our own culture and increasing openness to LGBT+/queer people, and because we’ve given yaoi a false equivalence with a western genre of fiction that has a much wider range of subject and form, we’re apt to look down on yaoi as ‘bad mlm’ and on its ‘fujoshi’ fans as genuinely ‘rotten women’.

The international reinterpretation of ‘yaoi’ & international yaoi fans

the other way the word ‘yaoi’ is used by many people in fandom-centric tumblr - anti and non-anti alike - is in reference to how Americans/Western fans ‘initially’ interacted with Japanese-sourced mlm (’initially’ being when yaoi became well-known enough for a noticeable interaction to appear in American/western geek subculture).

Manga and anime had a popularity boom in the US around 2003/2004 thanks to improving internet speeds and the 24-hour cartoon channel Cartoon Network looking for fresh animated content to air. Media companies caught on and a glut of manga and anime were officially licensed, translated, and sold overseas.

As the popularity of Japanese media grew, the word ‘yaoi’ became more popular and widely used in fandom circles, usually as a substitute for ‘slash’ or ‘gay’ (fictional mlm) when the source material for the fannish subject was Japanese in origin. I think this hit its peak around 2006-2007; at that time many teenage and young adult anime fans (primarily female/femme) who enjoyed slashfic/mlm fic called themselves ‘yaoi fans’. 

Why was ‘yaoi’ so popular in America/western culture? and why did its fans get such an awful reputation over time?

as for popularity, here’s a few aspects: 

Just another word for ‘slash’ - it wasn’t so much that yaoi as a publishing genre was popular as that there were a lot anime fans in fandom using the word ‘yaoi’ for their mlm fan content instead of the word ‘slash’. (and it still is used this way in some circles.)

male-attracted teen’s first fanservice - because of the size of the boom and the comparative diffidence of American marketers to young (male-attracted) people, a young anime fan’s first published media experience with the sexual ‘female gaze’ directed towards men was more likely to be sourced in Japanese BL content.

American gaze on Japanese male companionship - manga geared towards young men / perceived men in Japan (such as Shonen Jump titles) features a lot of male companionship and tight bonds of friendship. So does American media, but American male culture rarely allows men to touch one another in friendly ways (any gentle touch from a cis man is treated as expressing sexual interest).  Japanese male friendship culture lacks this physical distance. Guess how it was interpreted, and guess what kind of effect it had on American anime/manga fandom.

relatedly, this LGBT/queer read on Japanese-sourced masc-centric content, plus the willingness of works aimed towards femme audiences to present all-but-canon mlm relationships, probably functioned as a poor man’s substitute for the lack of LGBT representation in American media in some cases.

and some reasons for the terrible reputation ‘yaoi fans’ garnered:

American ‘yaoi fans’ in the mid-2000′s were mostly teenage girls/femme-aligned young people, and it is an American pastime to shit on teenage girls for being teenagers and girls at the same time.

10 years on, those teenage girls are young adults in their 20′s looking back on their younger selves with embarrassed disgust. That is: the word ‘yaoi’ started to garner its sour taste in the 2010′s because that’s when most of the teenagers of the 2000′s outgrew that particular flavor of immaturity.

a lack of LGBT/queer culture awareness and education in America. Yaoi or slash fanworks may have been Baby’s First Gay Content. It also might have been the entire extent of their knowledge about non-straight anything because America had by no means the same level of LGBT/queer visibility that it does now and certainly didn’t (doesn’t) educate about it. people said and did some awful stuff out of sheer ignorance and lack of thought.

fandom got better about it because resources improved and visibility increased, which was itself in some measure because of the popularity of mlm fiction in fandom circles leading to people doing more research and queer fans educating those who knew less. BL wasn’t necessarily intended as queer rep, but it did act as a gateway to queer culture for people who discovered things about themselves through BL.

socially inappropriate behavior of many, many kinds - including those who refused to separate fiction and reality and treated real mlm like live fanservice (‘omg real life yaoi!’). But as an icon of ‘yaoi fan in the 2000′s cringe culture’, perhaps nothing is so prominent and well-known as the ‘yaoi paddle’.

why is the yaoi paddle so illustrative and iconic? Well - the paddles were sold at anime conventions as a silly novelty item. Anime convention attendees tended (and still tend) to skew young, particularly compared to other nerdy social gatherings.  And as you would expect of a bunch of (a) overexcited young people (b) relatively lacking in supervision and (c ) surrounded by things liable to raise their excitement levels even more, they did a lot of foolish things when handed wooden oars that were easy to swing around and hit people with.

At about the same time that anime fandom was truly exploding in size and the yaoi paddle craze was hitting its peak, the internet was juuust about bandwidth friendly enough to allow people to take videos and upload them to this awesome new site ‘youtube’.

I’d say ‘you can imagine what kinds of videos people uploaded’ but you don’t have to imagine. you can see for yourself. The human interest news articles practically wrote themselves. And while yaoi paddles were quickly banned from conventions and their popularity dropped almost as fast, it was an impression to linger. particularly, IMO, combined with other invasive social behaviors that were somewhat more tolerated at anime conventions back then: ‘glomping’, ‘free hugs!’ signs, awkwardly following relative strangers around conventions as nominal ‘friends’, cosplayers publicly ‘making out’ as ‘fanservice’, etc.*

so this is the image of the ‘yaoi fan’ today - a young, white American cis girl at an anime convention in 2007, lacking self-restraint, social grace, and the ability to distinguish fiction from reality. and though this image has little to do with the original Japanese concept, we use the Japanese word to conjure it.

*these behaviors weren’t limited to young female / perceived female ‘yaoi fans’ by any means, but partially because of yaoi paddles, ‘cringe culture’ and ‘yaoi fangirls’ were inexorably linked to one another.

International (mis)use of ‘Fujoshi’: a Brief History

In contrast with ‘yaoi’, the word ‘fujoshi’ has a comparatively short history in American culture. It had a brief rise to popularity in the early- to mid- 2010′s, but for the past year or two it has been heavily invoked by the (so to speak) ‘fandom police’ as an invective against (perceived) women who ship fictional mlm and/or create explicit fictional mlm fanworks.

‘fujoshi’ (  腐女子 ) is a compound word composed of the kanji/hanzi for ‘rotten’/’fermented’ (腐) and ‘woman’ (女子 ) and is a homonym with an old Japanese word for ‘respectable woman’ (婦女子 ).  It was coined on 2ch (a Japanese text board popular with men) to insult (perceived) female fans who ‘queered’ media content written for & centered around men: re-imagining (canon straight) male characters as queer/gay/bi, shipping them with one another, and discussing/creating explicit, sexual work around those ships. (sound familiar?)

In its original insulting context, a ‘fujoshi’ was woman who was no longer a desirable marriage partner because of her interest in BL. She had ruined herself by marinating in sexual fantasies - and not even normal sexual fantasies about having sex with a man herself. Instead, she had fantasies about men having sex with men! Not only had a fujoshi woman lost her cute naivete and innocence: she’d also turned into a sexual deviant. She was fermented, overripe, disgusting, undesirable.

I don’t know how long this meaning had any clout, because Japanese BL fans - BL fans from all over Asia, in fact - embraced the ‘fujoshi’ label. to me, the implication of the ‘fujoshi’ reclamation reads like a giant, queer ‘fuck you’ to the kind of dudebros who hated them: ‘you find me undesirable because i like gay/queer content? That’s hilarious, because I never wanted you in the first place.’ 

And to this day (mid-2018), 'fu’/ 腐, ’fujo’/ 腐女, and its varieties (腐男子, 腐��, etc) have positive connotations in kanji/hanzi-using fandom circles.

The word ‘fujoshi’ reached English-speaking Western fandom eventually (I want to say in the late 2000′s/early 2010′s). It came to us already reclaimed and was picked up as a positive self-label. In those earlier days, Western fandom called themselves ‘fujoshi’ in a way much more similar to how Eastern fandom still uses it: 

It’s not my job to please you.

I’m allowed to enjoy taboo things like queer fanworks, headcanoning canon straight male characters as gay, and sexually explicit content.

If you think that makes me gross, then fine: i’m gross. your opinion doesn’t hurt me. in fact, I embrace it.

(now go away and let me ship.)

this connotation of ‘fujoshi’ enjoyed a brief period of popularity. There was a fandom ‘sweet spot’ for slash in 2011-2012: shifts in public opinion meant shipping gay ships wasn’t utterly taboo anymore and AO3 was a safe space for sharing slashfic. ‘Fujoshi’ came to semi-replace ‘yaoi fan’ in the English lexicon, at this time, becoming synonymous with ‘ships gay ships in animanga fandoms’, with the added bonus of partially shedding the connotation of loving old yaoi doujin tropes in one’s slashfic.

But in the last few years - starting in around 2014/2015, I want to say - there was a shift in the attitude towards shipping mlm here on tumblr. 

mlm fans who are seen as women - whether they are or not - are increasingly told that shipping fictional slash ships or creating fictional content about men in love with/having sex with men is terrible. mlm shippers/fanwork creators who aren’t mlm themselves - especially perceived-female mlm shippers/fanwork creators - are apparent no different from the ‘yaoi fangirl’ stereotype above: the 2007 cis white socially awkward fangirl, holding a yaoi paddle and screaming with excitement about real life yaoi!!! whenever two real gay men kiss.

the word ‘fujoshi’ - still tied to the English-speaking concept of ‘yaoi’ by both words being Japanese in origin and related to mlm fan content - was about to get unreclaimed with a vengeance … by American/Western fans with hardly a drop of knowledge about Japanese culture, fandom, or language.

And it’s been every bit as ugly as you can imagine.

‘yaoi’ and ‘fujoshi’ on tumblr today (mid-2018)

fandom on tumblr, deeply into policing everyone’s fannish interests in the name of social awareness, invokes ‘yaoi’ in a two-fold way:

‘yaoi’ as a doujinshi subgenre in Japan: featuring fictional mlm in sexual situations for titillation written by Japanese women (& femme-identifying nb people) for Japanese women (& femme-identifying nb people), and the distasteful feelings American/western culture bears towards its tropes as being unacceptably unrealistic and ‘backwards’ by modern progressive American standards.

‘yaoi’ as ‘cringe culture’: an imperialistic American/western read on Japanese media content + exposure to Japanese BL, blending unfavorably with a lack of education on real LGBT/queer culture, a lack of alternative LGBT/queer media representation, and teenagers being teenagers

Tumblr fandom police, feeling that ‘fujoshi’ was equally bad as ‘yaoi’ by dint of being adopted as a label by animanga slashfic fans & as another Japanese word relating to mlm shipping, proceeded to co-opt, redefine, and ‘un-claim’ the word ‘fujoshi’:

‘fujoshi’, but literally. having gotten wind of the literal meaning of the word ‘fujoshi’, but completely lacking the context under which the word was created, invoked, and reclaimed, fandom policers designated their own negative meaning for ‘rotten girl’. ‘fujoshi’ means ‘straight girl that’s rotten because she fetishizes gay men!’ fandom policers say - even though that has literally nothing to do with ‘fujoshi’ in its proper context.

telling East Asian fujoshi they can’t call themselves fujoshi. having decided the word ‘fujoshi’ is tied to being homophobic (by ‘fetishizing’ gay romance), and that its derogatory of women because they rely on their own re-take on the literal, negative meaning, American fandom policers start attacking East Asian fans that proudly call themselves fujoshi. (I wish I was joking.)

In summary, English-speaking fans are using their own twisted, ill-informed, and imperialistic treatment and understanding of Japanese concepts to turn those words into pejoratives for use in petty ship wars.

(And when you put it like that it kind of starts to look a little … well … racist.)

[%] This post was never intended as an exhaustive resource - as noted at the beginning of the post, it was based on my absorbed knowledge from being in animanga fandom as an American for many years - but thanks to the blogs I listed, who have a much more thorough knowledge of kanji / hanzi-using fan spaces such as Japan/China/Taiwan, Korea (in part), etc, I learned a lot about the current usage of ‘yaoi’ (or lack thereof) in Japan & how fujoshi was adopted as a popular label over the last 9 months.

If you’re ever looking for more information on these topics, I would especially point you to @rottenboysclub, as their blog is focused on educating English-speaking fandom on Japanese queer/LGBT+ and fandom terminology.

[$] regarding western tendency to appropriate Japanese culture - Japan is eager to export the unique aspects of their culture. but how many times have you seen an English article with titles like ‘10 Reasons Why Japan is So Weird’ or ‘25 Weird Things About Japan that will make you say ‘buy why?’’ (the literacy rate in Japan being nearly 100% is #3 on this list). and okay - Japanese culture is remarkably different from American culture. But this ‘Japan is so weird’ talk is often accompanied by a tone of mild superiority.

consider how we treat Japanese cultural products such as movies. The recent Death Note debacle is only the latest in a long string of this kind of nonsense (though thank goodness it’s getting the reputation it deserves.) Remember The Ring? American remake of Ringu. And of course there’s dozens of other examples of Americans buying or taking things from its original Japanese context and trying to make it ‘better’ for a mainstream American audience, even though the American audience liked the original Japanese product just fine. (Dragonball Z comes to mind.)

(On the flip side you have ‘weaboos/weebs’, the contemporary word for ‘Japanophiles’, putting Japanese culture on a pedestal, which is not any better, and disgust with ‘weebs’ tends to be extended to the aspects of Japanese culture they worship.)

[energyanon]

(Kinda long post ahead sorry)

Really hoping next year will be a better year for Henry, im tired of this non-personal-cold interaction he has going on. Yeah he fucked up and made a whole mess of a lot of things, but idk. Drama like this happens every time he gets a gf so this obv wont be the last time.

I wish the fans would stop setting themselves up for disappointment every freaking time he gets a new gf. Like cmon, most of u r grown women, yall should not be making hate pages on instagram about his gfs and making him the victim every time and perhaps use ur brains and start questioning his actions and intentions instead. (@ the fandom not u)

It makes us look like one of those obnoxious kpop fandoms that get wild over the smallest rumors. I wouldnt even be surprised if Henry thinks his fandom is a joke given that hes barely posted anything personal this year (dont blame him but still?, just shows the drama and everything has affected him mentally) and that his co-stars and ppl he knows irl probably thinks his fandom is immature too

All i ever want from him is more nerdy laid back stuff or just sharing his hobbies in general (though i think his only hobby is gaming & working out?, but like thats enough for me (i love gaming too). Fans would eat that shit up! No matter if they dont even like his hobbies, theyll take anything! Deadass

Hes shown he can do it with the PC build that caught a lot of attention. Man literally went viral. He should just relax and be himself more, but i feel like there is something stopping him, maybe not a person, but his mental state.

(Btw i enjoy ur acc, ur seem rly nice, tho i was kinda OOF by the aries post bc im an aries too 😂)

The HC fandom certainly has a trend from what i've seen of just straight up not liking his GF's, and that can be said for all of them, not even the problematic ones. It's just going to be the case from here on out, I don't think things will really change for the people that are apart of the continued cycle (and that isn't EVERYONE before people bite my face off, it's certain people who have a trend of hating every single one and still slagging them off, like on certain forum sites etc) but even if he dates mother theresa, there is going to be an issue cause it seems that with HC people create a more intense parasocial relationship probably because he does date relatively normal women and therefore is attainable? Idk, but I don't think it will change. Once again, that's not the entire fandom, but you can't deny there is a trend with quite alot of people within the HC fandom. I also would love to see more of his interests cause he was actually kinda fun and goofy when he was more himself. Even when he's near Sam Claflin he is really enjoying himself when he's usually just a bit dry tbh. I wonder why he has decided to stray from that. I know the MT thing is DG's influence, but that doesn't mean you need to hide the rest of yourself.. Also, Sorry Babe, My whole inbox is full of "an Aries has PERSONALLY ATTACKED ME" so maybe it's just the sun sign of some firey people heheh, but, I do have to say the rest of the aries that have contacted me have had methods of self reflection and seem like pretty good people, so I think that it's more that we're bringing afflicted aries' into our life in order to learn something. I read somewhere that we tend to draw certain signs into our life at times that we need to learn something that those signs specialise in, and I am currently in my Aries' phase of people. They're both the exact same people two and it's causing me alot of strife where one I finally broke off with and now the second is alot harder cause they're just always there and no matter how much I ignore they always will be, so I'm trying to find out what it is about them that I need to learn through the pain if that makes sense. So all signs are a blessing. That being said - also someone I thought was a Taurus (they're just on the cusp, and very much more Taurus traited than they are Aries) turns out that they actually are Aries, and although she does have some :\ traits, she is also Super loyal, and super fierce, and loving and giving. So there are good Aries out there for sure, I think it may just be a sign where, if you're drawing from the dark part of it, you're gonna burn the people around you, and if you're drawing from the good part of it, you're gonna be probably the best friend anyone has ever had. Which is where you can draw comfort from Anon cause you sound like you got the good parts :) That can be said for the rest of the signs btw. But it seems like hell hath no fury like an Aries scorned 😈

[kendrixtermina]

For the Love of Socionics

First I find it important to note here that I am not necessarily promoting this concept; I just thought it was interesting to discuss.

As such, I will try both to present it as the concept as it was so you can form your own opinion but aso add my own thoughts/ comments later.

So, today’s concept: Love, as in, human attachment bonds, or depending on whom you ask, the ideal, “true” state thereof.

It’s a word that has been used to mean many things in many context and ppl spend thick lyrical volumes debating its meaning so ever since the olden days ppl have been looking in ways to characterize it futher, all the way from modern terminology desgned to describe, say, a-spec people, to the most basic stuff drawn up by the ancient greeks.

Just like they gave us one of the first personality theories (the 4 temperaments), they codified the “Four Loves” at least for the western sphere of culture.

Turns out some socionists also got in on the act, and speculated about a connection to the Funktions!

But let’s start at the beginning:

The Classical List

Eros - Romantic Love (Romantic as in “couple” not as in “poetic and idealized”)

Philia - The infamous Power of Friendship!

Storge - Family Bonds

Agape - “Spiritual”/Selfless Love

At first, this was a sharp classification of the basic kinds of bonds that humans form in their many relationships: You have your folks, partner(s) and friends and they’re distinct in a couple of ways, as is the kind of idealistic drive that might drive you to risk your life to protect a fellow vhuman being or care for the downtrodden out of charity.

For example, you generally screw your girlfriend (unless you’re ace of course), but many would find the very thought of doing that with family, longtime friends or favorite deity hugely gross; You choose your friends and partners (well, hopefully), but you’re just stuck with your family (unless you’re adopted)...

You can tell by the brackets that things are a bit more complicated than just those sharp delineations - You can, for example, be best friends with your girlfriend, regard either your lifelong friend or spouse of many decades as part of the family, and many a parent would sacrifice everything for their child...

Often enough these are seen as all having their place and importance, though sometimes people would imagine a hierarchy here somewhere, depending on their culture - The ancient greeks being kinda misogynist devalued Eros as inferior to Philia as an equal bond, as do many “My spouse is such a nag!” type people im told are still around today, whereas modern believers in the “friendzone” seem to see Friendship as a consolation prize if not an insult (??because the worst thing ever is ??Cogeniality??), a lot of cultures insist you should obey your parents over everything even if they’re abusive asshats and of course religion always claims that invented and has the monopoly on any important human universals and praise abnegation as the highest good; Certainly the love of gods (particulary the monotheistic sort) for their creations is often described as such unconditional sacrifice, while those same religions decry attraction they disagree with as “low, carnal urges” to the point that medieval clerics questioned wether women have souls (because everyone is hetero & ladies don’t exist outside of being ppl’s wives amiright?)

It’s worth noting that various ancient societies had something like “blood brothership” which was for best friends was marriage is for romantic partners in that you could get some legally binding, indefinite formalization that made you part of each other’s clans. Meanwhile a romantic partner who is also a good friend is basically what people call a “soulmate” once you strip away the supernatural predestination myths around it; It’s sure how the Sims 4 implemented that XD

And obvsly we no longer see these as restricted to gender in that way. Two dudes can have eros. A guy and a chick can be friends.

And speaking of “low carnal urges” obviously shallow infatuation exists, but can’t friendship or family likewise driven by base instincts, such as they monkey drive for social rank and influence and the urge to procreate and make/raise babies which is probably older than pair-bonding. (which resulted in the potential for romance - a lot of animals just screw and are done with it.) Abusive Parents and fairweather friends everywhere attets that true love of any flavor can be hard to find.

Agape doesn’t really have a primal counterpart like that because it requires the human ability to even conceive of a “greater good” or “ideal” but in devotion there’s the danger ofyour kindness being abused, as well as that of zealotry - people who would kill or die for their ideologies, gods and dictators.

So perhaps a more differentiated view would be as these things as phenomena that can  but don’t have to co-occurr depending on the relationship, all of wichhave their good and bad sides - you can have a perfectly fine “girlfriend” or a more ambitious “soulmate” and likewise a “buddy” or a “blood-brother” etc.. and those would not be the same.

Likewise further concepts have been identified and added, often in the more specfific context of various components for a romantic relationship to have, though you could quantify any sort of human attachment through various combinations.

Extended List

Eros - The one strictly romantic or at least sensual aspect. Attraction to the partner’s beauty and other sensual attributes, and also expressed through physical touch, closeness, a lot of togetherness and sexuality (Though Boinking is not strictly required; Be it because of young age, orientation or circumstances preventing the couple from doing the deed.) A passionate type of bond that can form quickly and involve an element of loss-of-control. This can, however, lead to impulsive actions, Soap Opera plots and burn itself out unless there’s something deeper connecting the partners.

Philia - The defining ingredient of friendships. A bond based on mutual sympathy. The involved parties enjoy each other’s company, find each other’s character appealing and may share common interests, opinions , hobbies or joint pursuts.  Ideally this would be an equal bond that is all about giving each other freedom, echanging ideas and supporting each other through cameraderie. This one is largely unrelated to physical characteristics - Indeed most of ppl’s friends will not be romantic partners. On the other hand people who look for this sort of dynamic in a romantic partner will care more for personality and commonalities than looks.

Storge - Affectionate attachment based on familiarity. This can be the stuff of family bonds but also what you feel toward old childhood friends or pets, but also perhaps when you take a caretaking role towards a spouse, between a mentor a disciple, or in ‘found family’ type dynamics.  It is mosty formed just by living in close proximity, and represents a source of stability and repose, but also a sharing of duties and responsibilities. This is perhaps one of the more ‘mundane’ bond flavors, but also one that engenders the strongest loyalty, even if the person screws up big - After all, Ohana means nobody gets left behind. If this type of bonds are high on your priority list, you will want to get to know the person well before opening up or comitting to anything.

Agape - Selfless Love  - based on empathy and compassion for one’s fellow beings and the desire for their happiness with no expectation of reward.. Self-Sacrificing, unconditional, idealistic and far removed from the realm of material concerns and thus at times described as ‘divine’ or ‘spiritual’ - what we know as Charity, Altriusm and forgiveness. Random acts of kindness and thankless work for the greater good are classic examples; In an interpersonal context, it means to place the other person’s happiness before your own and accept them as they are. If this is a priority for you, you may be looking for an idealized, profound bond and be willing to be giving and devoted in return, but you’ll do well to keep your own needs and limits in mind.

Ludus - Playful love. Attachment and everything related to it as a source of personal pleasure, as well as pleasure as an aspect of relationships. Often involves some manner of sensuality or sexuality, but in contrast to eros, the primary emotions here are freedom, excitement and satisfaction.  This is usually present at the ‘getting to know’ phase of a relationship, but can also be pursued for its own sake through conversational flirting, ‘just for fun’ sex and all manner of kinky stuff. A lot of relationships fail because the partners failed to keep alive a spark of playfulness through the years - but on the downside, there’s a risk for irresponsible behavior - So make sure to use condoms and establish clear communications so no one gets their heart broken.

Mania - Dramatic Love. The intense, consuming, shakespearian sort of love that many poems, songs and stories were written about - though this may also be felt toward someone one simply admires. Involves dynamic feelings centered on the partner, who is held in high esteem while the relationship itself is given high importance. Interactions with the partner strongly influence the person’s mood, leading to pronounced moods that go through ups and down; At the heart of the matter is a subliminal desire to receive validation from the partner - but if said partner is not really the Mania sort, there’s a chance that they might be spooked or overwhelmed instead. In excessive extremes, this can lead to disproportionate jealousy or even obsession.

Pragma - Sometimes called ‘enduring love’ but in itself probably best described as the relationship between allies, it is a bond pursued for and sustained by practical, reasonable concerns, to be willing and able to work together toward joint or individual goals, to put in effort, patience and tolerance, and make compromises in order to make things work and mantain the relationship throughout the drudgery of everyday life. The partners are drawn together by common priorities, compatible views, dependability and having compatible life plans. This is glue that keeps a good working relationship or lasting arranged marriage going, though any bond may need its share of this in order to stand the test of time, be it a friendship or a romance. People for whom this is a high priority often show that they care by helping you in everyday practical matters - however, they can also have pretty high standards and expectations for their relationships

Philautia - Self-Love or Self-respect. Not really to do with interpersonal attachment per se, but obviously relationships can impact it for better or for worse, and likewise this helps us to choose good relationships.

As if those weren’t enough, the person who made this paper - a certain Mr. Meged - made up some of his own which he felt still merited terms:

Meged’s Additions

Victoria - Love as conquest, that is, interpersonal relationships as a means to “win” recognition, respect or the attention of everyone around, to seek stimulation in the thrill of satisfied ambition or vanity. Despite or perhaps because of that, they prefer and respect potential partners who present them with a bit of a challenge or surprise; In that case they show their interest through vying for, if not demanding the person’s attention in which they can be somewhat persistent.  This probably why people like stuff like Dominance-and_submission roleplays,  sexy vampires, or the Princess-In-The-castle trope, and why phrases like ’you belong to me’ are sometimes considered romantic or hot. Sometimes ppl with this as their main approach to bonding can be somewhat inconstant, or selfish especially if they’re extroverts (since there are always new ‘conquests’), the introverts may prefer a stable uncomplicated setup.

Analita... eh that word sounds too much like a fancy term for buttsex imma just gonna say “Analytic Love.”, meaning something in the direction of ‘fascination’, yet more specific than that. These folks are typically reserved and try to analyze the object of their  fascination from the distance, with a marked intellectual component - They try to understand how the other person “works”, that is to analyze their behavior and find connections betwenn their actions and reactions. The goal is to have the partner “figured out” by means of building a logical model of them, but when something doesn’t quite fit into it, they might just pique their curiosity even more and lead them to make futher observations to “observe” that model, which often has an abstracting-generalizing nature - indeed folks for whom this is a they have an idea of what a relationshgip should be like in terms of guiding logical principles on which they may not readily compromise - they’re looking to balance both their physical desires and intellectual needs and are drawn to people who are dynamic enough to be interesting to them, yet consistent enough. so even though they don’t idealize the partner or relationship the way some of the more ‘dynamic-feelsy’ flavors do,  they can be picky and liable to dissapointment.

A/N: I do think that these are Things and that there should be words for these. I was actually looking for a word for the later or perhaps something more general than that. I mean these definitions are ovsl. a bit too tailor-made for what he was gonna do with them, but I do think he’s onto something more universal there.

But why, why couldn’t he pick something that sounds less like “Anal”? I finally find a word for this and then I can’t use it, because butt.  

So what was this dudes’ point?`Well, he though that each function came with a characteristic type or range of them feels and therefore an affinity to a characteristic flavor in their attachments.

In particular, he drew these associations:

The Theory

Victoria and Se. Because socionics Se is aggrotastic anyways; There’s sure a tendency strive toward status, mastery/competition and stimulation/ excitement that is probably reflected in the courtship process as it is everywhere else.

Eros and Si - Largely drawing this connection because of the ‘sensual’ aspect, but also note that SJs tend to seek a harmony in both a physical and feelsy sense resulting in great loyalty and a willingness to overlook some of the partner’s flaws for the sake of stability and work to and create a nice environment for them, if anything they may try to adapt their partner to their needs - that said if they do not find the desired harmony, they will get dissapointed and part ways with their partner easily.

Philia and Ne - Bond will be based on a kinship of ideas, interests and motives and an underlying friendship with a sense of deep respect and understanding. A relatively selective mechanism that primarily unites like-minded people and stimulates growth of capability. To these folks equality is very important, so coercion or dictates and won’t remain loyal to anyone who dissapoints them, and, if the parther is too different in their thinking or doesn’t meet their expectations, they part ways without much regret.

Storge and Fi. A tenderness that includes deep understanding and compassion, complete with the ability to compromise and  smooth over disagreement. These folks will characteristiclyshow much solidarity to their partner, leniency towards their shortcommings and a general striving toward a harmonious, stable, pleasant and laid-back style of interaction.  It’s mostly about a connection of the sould more than anything else, but its crucial that the partner shows sensitivity.

Agape and Ni - Because they’re all abstrac-y and conceptual I guess.

Analita and Ti - Well yeah, he clearly made it up to fit this b/c he didn’t find a more fitting word in literature - that said he’s already heavily bending the definitions with some of these. (especially eros & Storge, for exam,ple; That’s not rly what was originally meant by that though I guess I see where he sees the applicability)

Pragma and Te - Choses partner by sober, pragmatic and ‘sensible’ parameters. Though the importance given to one’s personal priorities can be read as ‘egocentric’ , these folks are in fact oriented toward a ‘fair’ balance of giving and receiving, and presumes that one respect and understands the partner; There is a strivng toward the satisfaction of mutual interests.

Mania and Fe - desire for prolonged emotional intensity and exaggerated valuation of the relationship. This can be a a dramatic, demanding, evem possesive feeling with a fierce desire for complete reciprocation, but is at the same time capable of great compromise sacrifice and endurance. These are the sort of couples that argue a lot as changeable, dynamic, momentary moods play a big role.

Then, of course, it does was socionics often does and spends the greater part of the article bending into a pretzel in order to hamfist perfectly fine observations or ideas in that forced duality framework.

For the last time, Mister,  I am NOT marrying an ESFJ!

(No offense to the ESFJs. I’m pretty sure they would want to marry me even less, especially since this Meged guy recommends that you do all the household chores for me like TF? How can  “One person does all the work” remotely considered a functioning relationship?)

My 2cents

Hm...

I mean there are 2 basic ideas in here that I think should be differiented here -

A - that functions, especially the ego block functions, influence bonding behavior in specific ways and that it’s worth exploring what those specificificities are.

B - that those specifics are as postulated above, and that doesn’t have me wholly convinced.

Amusingly enough it seems to fit my priorities pretty well where my own main functions are considered - part of me is relieved to see that there’s a word for the Ti thing & how it’s actually very different to what the Te folks have going on, “logical principles” feature in more as general laws of whats fair & reasonable & you might pursue a not wholly reasonable in a Te sense connection because it’s interesting - in a way its closer to what Fi ppl do in that sense of wanting to “understand” the other person, but also very different in some parts, especially in the lack of that idealization Fi sometimes has - Your average TP is probably very aware of their loved ones’ character flaws, doesn’t place any exaggerated importance on relationships and won’t take anyone’s side just because they like them - it depends on wether they’re right or wrong, after all.

But IDK about the rest.

Many of the Fi users I know would indeed be in the “cute and stable” flavor of bonding and likewise I’ve encountered some SPs who were very much natural tops or Ni doms with a hidden romantic side (which I’d blamed on tert Fi TBH) but I’d hesitate to make that generalization - We can think of Fi users what we’d rather sort into the Mania or Agape categories, with the Fe users yeah the dramatic sort exist but the “reasonable, reliable, srz bzness” ones that would go in a Pragma or Agape direction  are probably the majority and the Si one doesn’t seem to make sense at all?

What do you guys think? After all I don’t really have first hand experience with, say, a high Si user’s POV.

Random idea/speculation:

Could this be an enneagram thing instead, again with a proportionality related to stuff like wings & trifixes?

1 - Agape

2 - Eros

3 - Pragma

4 - Mania

5 - Analita.

6 - Storge.

7 - Ludus

8 - Victoria

9 - Philia