#and I’m currently watching a podcast where they’re talking about in and out in Texas

[moghedien]

is it just that California people are insane or am I missing something about In and Out because I tried it a few months back and it was like….not good?

And I say this as a lover of fast food cheeseburgers

[notebooknebula]

Leverage Books to Grow Your Real Estate Business with Max Keller & Jay Conner

https://www.jayconner.com/leverage-books-to-grow-your-real-estate-business-with-max-keller-jay-conner/

Max Keller is a Best Selling Author, Investor, Entrepreneur, and National Speaker

Max joins Jay Conner to teach everyone how to create success.

Max went from being a full-time high school Math Teacher to creating multiple successful real estates and marketing businesses. He has published multiple books and currently licensees his lead generation systems to real estate professionals all over the country.

Although business is Max’s new full-time obsession, one thing has never left… the heart of a teacher. Max loves the opportunity to teach, inspire, and share real-world applications that can transform the lives of business owners.

Max earned his B.B.A. in Finance from The University of Texas at Austin and his M.A. in Teaching from Louisiana College. He has over 15 years of experience in real estate, finance, and teaching, and he was named the 2019 Industry Innovator of the Year. A few of his current roles are consultant, teacher, author, speaker, and expert panelist. He has flipped over 100 houses and is on a mission to help real estate agents and real estate investors have customers chasing them.

Max created Savior Publishing House as a way to serve his community and help seniors with their real estate challenges. The Savior brand of companies focuses on providing Christian real estate and business solutions to our clients. Max enjoys spending time with his wife and children and engaging in family activities, such as being involved at church and going on vacation. He is passionate about investing time in his family.

Timestamps:

0:01 – Get Ready To Be Plugged Into The Money

1:42 – Jay’s New Book: “Where To Get The Money Now”- https://www.JayConner.com/Book

2:59 – Today’s guest: Max Keller

5:26 – How Max Keller got into the real estate business

7:19 – Max Keller’s first real estate deal.

8:23 – Max Keller’s struggles during his start-up in the real estate business

13:29 – Max Keller’s marketing strategy in finding deals in the senior market

17:41 – They see me differently because I have a book – Max Keller

20:38 – Let Max Keller help you create your own book for your real estate business.

27:34 – ‘Real Estate Investors’ Book Writing Checklist” – https://www.DealsChasingYou.com/Conner

28:57 – Max Keller’s parting advice: Lead with value.

Private Money Academy Conference:

https://jaysliveevent.com/live/?oprid=&ref=42135

Have you read Jay’s new book: Where to Get The Money Now? It is available FREE (all you pay is the shipping and handling) at https://www.JayConner.com/Book

Free Webinar: http://bit.ly/jaymoneypodcast

Jay Conner is a proven real estate investment leader. Without using his own money or credit, Jay maximizes creative methods to buy and sell properties with profits averaging $64,000 per deal.

What is Real Estate Investing? Live Private Money Academy Conference

https://youtu.be/QyeBbDOF4wo

YouTube Channel

https://www.youtube.com/c/RealEstateInvestingWithJayConner

iTunes:

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/private-money-academy-real-estate-investing-jay-conner/id1377723034

Listen to our Podcast:

https://realestateinvestingdeals.mypodcastworld.com/11247/leverage-books-to-grow-your-real-estate-business-with-max-keller-jay-conner

Real Estate Investing With Jay Conner

Jay Conner

00:02:40

My special guest knows how to teach and create success. In addition to that, my guest and friend went from being a full-time high school math teacher to creating in such a short period of time, a moldable successful real estate and marketing businesses. In fact, he’s published multiple books and currently licenses his special proprietary lead generation systems to real estate professionals all over the country. Also, I want you to know that all of those businesses are my friend’s new full-time obsession. But one thing has not changed, and that is his heart of being a teacher.

He’s got a servant’s heart. He’s always looking to give value and he loves teaching. He loves the opportunity to teach, inspire, and share real world applications that can transform your business. In addition to that, my special guest and friend has been investing in real estate. He’s got 15 years of experience in real estate, finance, and teaching. And as a matter of fact, he was named the 2019 Industry Innovator of the Year. Also, he has already flipped over 100 houses. In addition to that, he’s created a company called Savior Publishing House as a way to serve his community and to help senior citizens with their real estate challenges, enjoy spending time with his wife and children engaged in family activities. And something very, very important to him is being very involved in his local church, just like me and Carol Joy. With that, welcome to the show my good friend, Max Keller.

Max Keller

00:04:57

Hey, good to be here. Let’s go.

Jay Conner

00:05:00

It is awesome to have you on here, Max. Good to see you again. You and I are in a fellow mastermind. You and I have probably known each other now for about 3 years or so. And I tell you, it’s just amazing to watch all the phenomenal successes and the growth of your company that you’ve got going on. We’re going to be talking about private money with you here on the show today. But before we jump in, tell us, Max, how did you get into real estate?

Max Keller

00:05:28

It was sort of by accident. So, I was teaching Math at an inner city school. I was coaching football, basketball, and track, and I didn’t want to actually get into real estate full time. I just saw it as a passive income opportunity. My pay was pretty much fixed to being a teacher. And so I was like, I got to do something as my kids were getting older. So what I did was I just wanted to maybe get one or two rentals a year. I figured if I did that over a period of time, I could have a pretty good nest egg and then pass it on. What ended up happening in 2015 was I just kind of got sucked into real estate. I mean, it’s not just a good way to make money over long periods of time, but you can really increase the active income.

So I basically just got a local mentor. I worked all day as a teacher and then at night I would work for him. And within about 3 months I got a couple of houses under contract wholesale. One made about $16,000, which is like 4 months worth of teacher pay. I Then did it again. And then another time. And I just decided I needed to go full-time. And so that’s what I did. I just went full-time, I made the leap, it was a lot easier to source deals back then in 2015, 2016 than it is right now, but there’s still ways to do it. You just have to know what you’re doing, execute, and level up your marketing. And so that’s sort of been the journey that I’m on. I’m in Dallas Fort Worth and it’s very competitive like a lot of markets. And so what happened with me, I just had to figure out a better way to do my marketing because if you don’t have leads in your business, whether they’re for private money or for deals, you don’t have a business. So that’s kind of what happened to me. It’s been an amazing journey and it just keeps evolving every day.

Jay Conner

00:07:19

So was your first deal, a wholesale deal, a fix and flip, what was it?

Max Keller

00:07:23

So I have pretty good credit because I didn’t use it. That’s what’s kind of funny about credit. If you use it a lot, you don’t get very much more and your credit score is low. I had gone through when I was a teacher, like the Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University model, so I had all my debts paid off. I didn’t understand how to leverage debt in a good way yet. So, I actually took down my first property with a line of credit, I guess I kind of really wholetailed it, I technically took title to it and then just sold it, like I did a closing 4 weeks later to a cash buyer. But yeah, it was $16,000. I mean, I didn’t squeeze every ounce of juice out of the deal like I could have, but what I did have back then, which was really important, is having some really consistent, solid buyers. And that allowed me to create some opportunities for bigger chunks of cash today. And then it allowed me to leverage into long-term assets.

Jay Conner

00:08:23

What were some of your early struggles when you were starting out?

Max Keller

00:08:26

I think probably the first one was what to focus on and like who to market to. So it’s funny. I do a lot of marketing now and I’ve gotten a lot better at it. But at first, the challenge was that marketing because there’s so many other people sending out the exact same thing to everybody. And so as the competition kept going up in our market, the return on my ad spend kept getting lower and lower. And so I had to figure out basically what I figured out in my market was the problem that we were having was every other investor and wholesaler were sending the same messages to the same people. Like if they’re on my list, they’re probably on other people’s lists, too. And we have hedge funds entering our market pretty early on and they were paying really, really high prices.

So I knew that if I was just going to only compete on price and compete against people who have multimillion dollar marketing budgets, that was going to be a tough order. So the good news is I just thought about what the problem was and said maybe I don’t need to take down every deal in Dallas Fort Worth. What’s the best niche I can focus on? And so what I did and what I would encourage people to consider, even if they’re brand new is like, I just kind of outlined what’s a perfect deal for me. And for me, a perfect deal is one where I make good profit on the deal because of a larger profit deal and a smaller one. They take about the same amount of time. Number two is I want to work with people that aren’t resisting me. Like, I would go over to people’s houses and they would argue with me when I showed them the comps and they hadn’t moved in 20 years.

They don’t have a real estate background. And I was like, this is kind of a joke. And so that was number two. I want to work with people who are like, “You’re the expert who helped me,” and I want to work with people that I just enjoyed working with, who were just nice people that just didn’t have a clear path. And so those are the kind of people I wanted to work with. I made a list when I’d already done about 30 or 40 deals, most of the deals that I’d already done didn’t meet all of those criteria, but the ones that did, you didn’t have to be rocket scientists to figure out what the pattern was and that they were senior citizens, they were senior homeowners. So that was sort of my first marketing A-ha moment, was that there’s this really large, fastest-growing niche in our real estate space that I could target with different messages.

Senior homeowners have different needs than millennial homeowners. They just do. They’re interested in different stuff. They have different questions. So instead of sending everybody the same message, “I’ll buy your house, paid cash in 7 days,” like everybody else is sending, I started sending totally different messages that were very senior-centric. And as a benefit, I got a lot more calls. I had a much higher response rate and then kind of the next thing that happened after that real quick was about a senior’s house. It was the dad, and his adult children were there. So he was probably in his early ’80s and the kids were in their ’50s, early ’60s. People were upset because they’re selling the family home. There’s a lot of memories, Christmas was right over there, but they had to do it.

The dad couldn’t stay in the house any longer. And so the adult daughter said, “I really appreciate everything that you’ve done for us. You’ve helped us out.” I found the dad a new place to live, like a senior retirement home. And she said, “You know a lot about this. Have you ever thought about writing a book about this?” I was like, Jay, my lands, that was the furthest thing from my mind. I was like, “No, I’m a Math teacher. I’m not an English teacher.” But then when I thought about it, I was like, that’s actually a pretty good idea because at the time in the little 3 cities that I focused on in this huge Dallas Fort Worth metro area, I was getting known as the guy who knew a lot about seniors.

But if I wrote a book about seniors and their housing struggles, I could be the guy who wrote the book on it. So that’s what I did. I’ve got a special gift for your audience at the end, by the way. If you’re interested in writing your own book, we’ve created the first of its kind DIY guide. It’s basically the framework that we didn’t have when we wrote our first book, but we have now for all the books that we write. I didn’t realize that a book would be such an incredible magnetic marketing engine for my business. I was selfishly just kind of tired of having the 4-hour Q and A’s in everybody’s living rooms, answering the same questions over and over for 3 years. It was kind of burning me out. So I just wrote the answers to all those questions in the book. I wrote down all the stuff that people should ask, and I just got it printed. It took a couple of hundred hours to write my first one and then I just started giving it to people and it became my ultimate business card. And it really changed the way that I market for deals and then eventually private money forever.

Jay Conner

00:13:30

So, you started focusing, as you just said, on serving and talking with senior citizens that were at the point where they needed to sell their houses.

What are your favorite marketing methods for locating the owners of these houses that may be looking to sell?

Max Keller

00:13:56

Great question. So there’s really 2 categories of marketing methods that we use. They’re the ones that we used before we had a book. And then there’s the ones that are more available to people who are experts, authorities, local celebrities. You, obviously, are in that category. And so what we did initially when we got the book, was basically just the same methods that we were using. Data is more available now than it’s ever been. It’s easier than it’s ever been to find more ways than there’s ever been for people to reach you. What’s really missing in marketing is really understanding who you’re talking to as a marketer and then sending messages that are like reading their minds.

That’s the biggest problem, okay? It’s not the list. Everybody has the same list. Everybody knows how to stack a list. You can go on YouTube, figure it out in 5 minutes. The real challenge is why would they choose you over everybody else? That’s the missing piece. And so that’s what we did. I’ll give you an example, real simple, okay. We’re getting calls from our direct mail, our door-to-door flyers, our normal calling agents and talking about if there are pocket listings. Normal stuff. So people are calling our office, right? We had just gotten the book and sometimes they’re calling with a little bit of a chip on their shoulder because they know that they’re getting all this mail, you know? So they’re like, “Hey, congratulations, you’re going to win the house lottery. You have the opportunity to come over to my house and pay me more than you probably should.”

And so when people call, they’re like, “we need you to come over right now.” And I was afraid that if I didn’t go over there real quick, they would sell it to somebody else. That’s what they teach at all the bootcamps. And that’s probably true if you don’t have a book, but if you do, you don’t have to do that because instead I would just say, “Hey, oh great! Yeah, you want us to come over? Okay. we’ll get to that. Hey, real quick, do you have a copy of our latest book?” And they’re like, “Your book?” like the whole tone changes. I go, “Yeah! We wrote the book on senior housing. I’m the Home To Home guy, the step-by-step senior housing guide.” And I press further.

“So, let me ask you a question. If I send an autographed copy of the book to your house,  you can read Chapter 3 – ‘All The Ways To Sell Your Home with Pros & Cons of Each’ before I come over. Because if you can, then I’ll come over and if you can’t, then I can’t come over. See, I’m the boss of my business. I’m the expert you’re calling and talking to the foundational source for the information that you need. So we’re going to follow my process.” It’s not being rude. It’s just a statement of fact. And so it really increases compliance, which is what you want as a business owner. Because you know the formula to help your clients better than they do. Otherwise, they’d be doing it themselves. Well, what do you think people are going to say when you ask them if they’re going to read an autographed book?

What do people say when they get your autographed book? They can’t wait. So what happens is, I pay a courier about 30 or 40 bucks. I send it over and I go, “Hey, do you still need me to come over right now? Or are you going in to foreclosure?” Then we got like a couple of days. It’s okay, a couple of days. So now I’m on my schedule, which is what I need to run a predictable business. I send the book, they read Chapter 3, but they read the rest of the chapters. Do you know what I mean? They read the story right here with me and my Momo. Do you think people think that guys who take care of their 90-year-old grandmas are scumbags or loan sharks? Heck, no. They’re like, “Man, this is, like, my new grandson, Max.”

So when I come over, they’ve read the whole book. They’ve already spent 4 or 5 hours with me and they see me differently because I have a book, you know? So it just sets the tone really well. It puts the odds in my favor. Then when I come over, I bring them the workbook and they’re just like, “Dang, it’s like Christmas around here.” And then I go through it with them. So instead of just talking about stuff or asking these lame and hard closing questions that nobody likes and it makes you look really slimy, we don’t have to do any of that stuff. Here’s the perfect example, Jay, on page 41. I tagged this page. I go, “Now, Mavis, if you’re looking at some other investors to buy your house, I totally understand that.”

I said to her, “I’d probably do the same thing, but make sure that you ask them these questions. These are the questions you’re going to want to ask to make sure you don’t get roped in with the wrong person. And by the way, you can ask me those questions, too: Do you see the credibility? Do you see the openness?” It’s like lights out. So that’s how we buy houses and it works really well. We attach it to what we’re already doing, but then the other stuff is the stuff that we didn’t even know about, which is speaking to local businesses. So one time I spoke at the probate attorney association, a monthly meeting for my county. Jay, do you think that 30 probate attorneys sitting in a room while you’re standing, that makes you the expert at what you’re delivering? Do you think some of those 30 probate attorneys in the next 2 years are going to know somebody that needs to sell their house?

Jay Conner

00:19:12

Well, it’s the perfect market that is like the revolving door of prospects for your target market.

Max Keller

00:19:19

Yeah. And so I used to think the only way to market for deals was directly to the homeowner with really standard, generic messages that get thrown in the trash. So our messages used to be in the junk mail, but now our books are on the coffee table with all the other autographed books from the local real estate experts, which, as you know, it’s not a huge stack. So, it’s about pivoting when you’ve established yourself as an authority, as an expert, as a local celebrity in your field, whatever it is. It helps make the transition going from an annoying pest, as Dan Kennedy says, to a welcome guest.  We were the pesky salespersons who were only pitching and not listening, but now we’re the educator or the non-fiduciary housing advisor. That’s just a big paradigm shift. And when you’re in front of 30 business owners, there’s an incredible amount of leverage because they know 30 prospects. So in 1 hour you can really speak to 900 people. It’s just super powerful. And I haven’t found any other method of marketing that can replicate those kinds of results.

Jay Conner

00:20:32

Well, you can’t beat the credibility of having a book. You can’t beat the credibility of knowing what you’re talking about and being an expert. So, Max, we got a lot of people here listening to the podcast and I’m sure they’re scratching their heads going, “Well, that’s a great idea, Max, but how in the world do I get me a book?”

Max Keller

00:20:52

How can I get a book? Yeah, great question. I would love to come on here and say, “Jay, I’m just such a hot shot ninja marketer that I planned all this out.” Nothing could be further from the truth. If my market wasn’t so competitive, I would have never spent 200 hours writing a book. I would have just kept scooping up deals like most people were doing in that time in these tertiary, secondary markets, but I didn’t have a choice and it worked out really good. Here’s what happened. I’m getting deals with my book. I’m in masterminds, and we’re actually in a lot of the same masterminds. So I’m in this mastermind and my friends in there, you know, investors copy what works, they’re not trying to reinvent the wheel. And they’re like, “Hey, I kinda like this.”

“I live in Florida. You’re not using your book in Florida. It turns out we got seniors there, too. You think I could use your book?” And I was like, “I don’t know.” Maybe I just didn’t understand. And then my friend in Chicago is like, “Hey, can I use your book? Hey, they got seniors in Chicago, too.” So what we did was we created a system. I brought in some of the who’s who in publishing and we created a licensing program. It turns out the secret behind this book is that 99% of it is about stuff that our ideal prospect cares about. 1% is about us. Most marketing messages are the opposite. All they do is talk about themselves and very little about the person. That’s why they don’t call you. It’s like, “I’m sending out all this stuff. Why are people not calling me?”

Because it doesn’t look like you even understand what they’re going through. So that was sort of the accidental secret sauce from this. So we created a system where we change about 5% of the book, because the ways to sell a house in North Carolina is pretty similar to Dallas and is pretty similar to California, especially with the types of assisted living facilities, all of that’s about the same. So now we just swap them out on the cover. We give them a custom cover and they just pay us a one-time licensing fee to set up their book. In less than 30 days, they have a book and a workbook that they can hand out to prospects. And so they only spend about an hour or two of their time filling out all the information we need to personalize it. We write in their story.

So it just lowers the barriers that make it easier. And the folks that are usually a fit for our program are folks that are active real estate investors. They understand the value of a deal. They have some credibility, but they just haven’t figured out a way to signal it to the people they’re trying to reach. The phone isn’t ringing like it used to. Those are the people that come to us. And we’ve had about 130 students that licensed one of our 4-books systems across the nation. They see that this works and they don’t want to reinvent the wheel. So yeah, that created another, whole new business that I never expected. That’s where I got the award from, with Robert Kiyosaki. Jay, a funny story and I didn’t tell everybody this right.

It’s kind of embarrassing, but in 2005 I actually tried to get into real estate. I was 25. I just got married. The problem was, I wasn’t reading and I definitely wasn’t writing books. I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. So I researched CRMs all day, which is worthless. And I created an LLC, which is meaningless. And I didn’t know anything about marketing or lead generation. I stood in line to get Robert’s book for 2 hours. And then I just ended up not doing anything. That’s what happens. I just didn’t understand what to do next. I didn’t have a mentor. I didn’t even know what that was. So it’s crazy to think and I never would have imagined in a million years, 15 years later, I’m getting this award, we’re sharing a stage together and we’re exchanging books. I never would have imagined it.

It was a really cool deal. So it can happen. Books are super powerful and we believe that we’ve made it easier than ever for folks to plug in. And like I said, it’s for folks who want to do senior housing. And then what happened was that, well, once you have a deal, what do you need after that? The money. So we created a licensing program. This is one of my student’s books, Leonard, I’m really proud of him. He’s in Seattle. And because it turns out, guess what? Senior homeowners have questions. And when you give them the book, they look at you really differently. It works the same way with private money lenders. Who knew? So this is Leonard’s book. And then we just swap out covers. Here’s Tim Davis’. So you see how they’re different? But the insides are the same. But here’s the thing, the person you’ve given it to doesn’t care.

They just want to solve their problem. They’re just trying to figure out how to not get into a deal with a lousy borrower. They’re just trying to figure out if this deal really has a discount or not, they just want to have their questions answered. So instead of going to a blog or getting a bunch of emails, which have a low perceived value, we give them something that has a higher perceived value and a higher level of expected authority and expertise. And we just educate and help people. We tell them this isn’t for everybody. Being a private money lender on real estate is not for everybody. This is who it’s for. This is who is not for. This is my book and if you want to go through it together, I’d love your feedback. You know, stuff like that. So it’s been really cool and he’s happy because he didn’t have to rewrite this himself.

And then what we’re good at is helping people apply it to their marketing because just getting a box of books where you wrote one chapter with everybody else, nobody cares about when you fell down a well and you overcome your struggles, they just care about themselves. “What’s in it for me?”, that’s what all the homeowners are thinking. That’s what all the private money lenders are thinking. They won’t tell you that, but that’s what they’re really thinking. So just give them that, but give it to them in a way that establishes your authority and your credibility and it’s scalable and that’s pretty much what we do. And then we created a book system for Gene Guarino. We just did his latest book, and his students licensed it. And then we haven’t even announced this publicly, but we just wrote a book for Eddie Speed and the Richard Thornton, and so there notes students are going to license that out. That’s brand new. We haven’t even announced it, but I guess I spoiled it a little bit. So it’s been really cool to help people because everybody there wants to lead with more value. They want to educate well, I mean, who would ever say no to that? So it’s been cool.

Jay Conner

00:27:14

What you’ve done there, Max, is you’ve created a way that no matter what niche someone has in real estate, they can further invest on how to raise their credibility and actually convert a higher percentage of prospects into actually doing business. Well, I know we’ve got people that want to connect with you. So what’s the best way for people to connect with you, Max?

Max Keller

00:27:37

Yeah, it’s real simple. We made a special link as long as it’s up, so don’t delay, but we’re going to leave it up at least for the first 25 people who download this. So we created a new book called, “The Real Estate Investors Bookwriting Checklist.” It’s basically all the steps that we went through when we wrote Gene’s book and Eddie’s book and Richard’s book. But we didn’t have that when we started and we haven’t seen it in any other books. So it’s a real simple guide that you can use, whether you’re thinking about writing a book or an e-book or you just want to have social media messages that convert better. It’s real simple. Just go to DealsChasingYou.com/Conner. You can download a copy of the book while the link is still up. And then you can go on the website and check out some of the training videos that we have. It talks about the different types of book systems and how it would benefit you because that’s what it’s all about. It’s about getting more deals. It’s about getting more dollars. And when those things get dialed in, the marketing becomes a lot easier. Life just gets better.

Jay Conner

00:28:50

Max, thank you so much for offering that amazing gift to our listeners here. Any final comments and advice?

Max Keller

00:29:01

Just lead with value. Look, I know you can go deep sea fishing and I know there’s some great fishing where you’re at. You can go deep sea fishing and spend 4 hours trying to wrestle a big fish on the boat. That works. People do it. It’s just really exhausting. That’s what it’s like to market in a crowded market, trying to compete against Wall Street with price. That’s what it’s like trying to market without a book. But what we do is totally different. We share what we’re doing. And then we attract the people that resonate with our message. And so they’re calling and qualifying themselves to work with us. And in one of the most competitive markets in the nation, in one of the most competitive times, people are regularly calling us asking if they qualify to work with us. That’s a big difference.

Jay Conner

00:29:49

That’s awesome. Thank you so much, Max. There, you have it, folks.

[swiftlymoniquesblog]

Fake FBI Agents? Sam x Reader  (With lots of Dean)

A/N: Hello! Yes, I am alive but I’ve been hella busy with work, as some of you know. And then, I got my second COVID shot and had a BAD reaction to it so I’m trying to recover.

This story is based off my real job working for at my local police department, which I’ll be celebrating 6 months at this month! I thought it would be funny if I could tell that Sam and Dean were fake FBI agents based off looking at their badges because I do see and interact with real FBI agents occasionally. 

I also met a Texas Ranger not too long ago and even though he was *much* older than me, he was *very* attractive. Not like Jared’s Cordell Walker but still. 

Hope everyone enjoys this and all feedback is welcome!

Warnings: FLUFF, series level violence, angst, pining, blood, serious injuries, series level monsters, lots of pain but the fluff makes up for it.

Word Count: 5, 981

Masterlist of all Masterlists| Supernatural Masterlist

Working for a police department was quite a unique experience. On a daily basis, you got to see the worst in people. From assaults to thefts, stolen vehicles, and homicides, there was never a dull moment when you had to work to help the public. Even with not being on the emergency side of the police department, you were still helping people and were trying to solve all their problems when they couldn’t seem to handle them on their own. Growing up, wanting to help people was always a priority for you but you never thought that would be fulfilled working in law enforcement. Sure, there were times when it would get super overwhelming with the constant phone calls and reports you would have to take over the phone and/or in person, and if you were left on a shift alone, it was that much more challenging. But ultimately, you did enjoy what you did because you felt as though you were being an important part of your community, whether you were acknowledged for it or not. And, who wouldn’t want to look at those cute police officers all day long? Just a small amount of time spent chit-chatting with them as you handed them over the keys to their vehicles for their shifts, still seemed cool. Who doesn’t appreciate a man in uniform? One night, as you were working alone, you had two, albeit very attractive men, come into the lobby of the department and came to the window to speak with you. 

“Hi, how can I help y’all?” You ask, looking to the shorter of the two men. 

“Yeah, we’re here about a case. I’m Agent Tyler, this is my partner Agent Perry, with the FBI.” The man said, as he pulled out his FBI badge, his partner followed his lead.

You stood from your desk to walk over to the window to see their badges, and upon closer inspection, you discovered they were fake. Immediately, you started laughing, causing the two men to just stare at you with a shared look of confusion. 

“What’s so funny ma’am?” The taller of the two asked. 

“Y’all aren’t from the FBI,” You said, laughing harder as your sides began to hurt. 

“Um, yeah, we are, didn’t you see our badges?” Agent “Tyler,” said to you, flashing his badge again. 

“Yes, I saw your fake FBI badges,” you said, eyeing the men suspiciously. 

“How did you know?” Agent “Perry,” asked. 

“Because this is a police department. We have a local FBI office and I have dealt with them several times since I’ve worked here. We’re trained to spot real and fakes badges and from my training, these two are definitely fake,” you said, smirking smugly. 

“Damn, she’s good, Sammy,” the shorter one said. 

“So, what do you two really want?” You ask, cocking your eyebrow up to further question the men. 

“Okay, here’s the truth. I’m Sam, this here’s my brother Dean, we’re in town to investigate a string of disappearances that have been going on over the past week-and-a-half. Do you know anything about them?”  The taller one, Sam, said to you, giving a sad, puppy-dog look as he spoke. 

“Of course I do. Police department remember? I can’t begin to tell y’all how many missing person reports our agency has been taking during that time. At least close to thirty and that’s a huge number for a town of about 100,000 people,” you say, shaking your head in disbelief. 

“Well, what’s been reported?” The shorter one, Dean, asked. 

“I can’t share that information with you but what I can do is call over to dispatch and see if they can send an officer up here to speak with y’all?” 

“Okay, that’d be great,”  Sam said.

“Alright y’all have a seat and I’ll see about getting an officer over here to help y’all out,” you say, turning around to head back to your desk. 

The two men sat in chairs beside one another as you called over to dispatch to set up an officer to come speak to the guys. 

“Well, officers are currently 10-6 (busy) so it may be a while before they’re able to get out there,” the dispatcher informs you. 

“Okay, I’ll let them know, thanks. Sam, Dean?” You call to the guys as both their heads turn to look at you. “All our officers are busy with other calls at the moment but someone should be up here soon to speak to you,” 

“Great, thanks a lot sweetheart,” Dean said, winking at you but you just ignore him. 

Almost an hour later, an officer was dispatched and on his way to speak to the men, much to their happiness. 

“Hey, sorry for keeping y’all waiting, I’m officer King, how can I help y’all?” The officer said, shaking hands with both Sam and Dean. 

“Well first of all you should give that young lady behind that desk there a raise because she’s doing a wonderful job,” Dean stated, shooting another wink in your direction. Officer King just laughs as Sam groans beside Dean and takes over-explaining. 

“We work for a podcast that reports unsolved cases and we just wanted to see if you had any information you could give us,” Sam explained. 

“Sure, why don’t y’all come back to my office and we can discuss this,” Officer King said, nodding to you before he led the men back to his office. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About half an hour later, the boys had come out to the lobby and over to the counter again. 

“What can I do for y’all?” You ask. 

“Well, we just wanted to thank you for your help but also wanted to ask if you wanted to be included in this story because we heard your sister was reported missing?” Sam asked. 

“Um, yeah, yeah she was. But no, I don’t mind talking about it, if y’all think you might be able to help,” you say. “I don’t get off until 11 tonight but I’m off tomorrow so I can meet y’all somewhere then and we can go over this.” 

“Great. Where can we meet you?” Dean asked. 

“Why not right back here say 10 am?” You suggested, not confident in trusting them to meet you anywhere else. 

“Easy enough. See you tomorrow,” Dean said, shooting a quick wink your way before Sam just smiled and nodded to you. 

The rest of the shift went by without too much excitement going on from your side of the screen, but the officers you could see from the call screen, they were dealing with quite a bit of incidents around town.

That night, you kept to your normal routine of driving home and quickly locking up behind you before you let your dog outside and made a quick meal for dinner as you searched for something to watch on Netflix. Your mind wandered off to the two brothers you met earlier that night. It seemed weird how they came up to the desk and just started asking a lot of questions. Most people have complaints or need to make some form of a report but these two? They were strange, to say the least, but they weren’t too bad to look at, especially Sam. He towed above you from the opposite side of the window and although he couldn’t touch you, he seemed rather intimidating. On the one hand, his eyes were soft but his height and the muscles that protrude from his arms made him a little scary. On the other hand, you thought about what it would be like to have him push you against a wall and have his way with you. You shudder at the thought; you don’t even know the man! I think it’s time for bed. You thought to yourself, trying to wish anyway whatever thoughts you were thinking to yourself but the last thing you thought as you shut your eyes for the night, was the name; Sam. 

The next morning, you woke up and got yourself ready for meeting the brothers. You weren’t sure what exactly to expect but you did know you were looking forward to seeing them again. But it was odd to you; why would two strangers from God knows where come to your small town to investigate a string of disappearances? Who were these brothers? Whatever their story was, you decided to proceed to meet with them cautiously, because if there’s one thing you’ve learned from working for the police department; you can’t trust people’s stories. Gathering your things together, you got in your car and drove back down to the station where you almost immediately saw the two strangers leaning against a beautiful classic car, seemingly waiting for you. You would be lying if you said your heart was beating erratically. Something seemed weird about the brothers so you reached in your bag to secure the small handgun you kept there just in case. 

“Hey guys,” you say, letting go of the gun but remembering it was still there. 

“Hey,” Sam said, giving you a tight smile.

“Okay, so what do y’all wanna know?” You ask, looking between the brothers who just share a glance. 

“Well, why don’t you start with your name?” Dean said. 

“Oh, right, I’m (y/n). Nice meeting y’all properly,” You say.

“You too, (Y/N). How long have you been working for the police department?” Sam questioned. 

“Just about a year now,” you state, walking over to a picnic table and throwing your legs under the table, the brothers sitting opposite of you. 

“Have you ever seen any kind of activity like this before? This many disappearances?” 

“No, never. We’ve had a few years where it was close to this but this year is on a completely different level. Our officers have never seen this kind of activity either, nor the detectives. Even those who’ve worked for the department the longest said they’ve never encountered an invisible monster on this large a scale in a long time,” you say, not believing the recent incidents that had been happening in your jurisdiction. 

“Is there anything these cases have  in common?” Dean asks.

“Not that I’ve seen but you should definitely talk to detectives because they know more about that kind of thing than I do.”

“How about the families of the victims? Anything seem similar to you?” 

“You know, there is something similar with the victims’ families. They all come from upper-class backgrounds. We have two wealthier neighborhoods in town and all the victims are living in those neighborhoods,” you say. 

“That’s interesting. Any reason that may be?” Dean said to Sam like he would know the answer. 

“Not really but I do have some ideas of what this might be,” Sam said.

“What do you mean you might know what this is? Y’all aren’t even from here nor have even seen the reports!”

“Should we tell her?” Sam asked. 

“I think we can trust her plus with the way you’ve been looking at her, I think she should know,” Dean said, causing his brother’s cheeks to turn red. 

“Tell me what? How has Sam been looking at me?” You asked, not sure which was more important right now. 

“We’re hunters and we don’t mean animals. We hunt monsters, like the ones you hear about in books or on TV. They’re real; all of them. And we hunt them, kill them, to protect the country,”

 Sam explained like it was the easiest explanation for anyone to hear in the world. 

“What? Monsters? Like made-up monsters? Like werewolves? Vampires? Ghosts? Those are real?” You ask.

“Every one of them. Plus so many others and we kill them. They attack humans, we kill them,” Dean said, with the most serious expressions you’ve ever seen. 

“Wha-why are you telling me this? I-I don’t understand, monsters. They’re real? And y’all hunt them, kill them, to protect people?” You ask, repeating the info the brothers just told you. 

“Yes and we think there might be one of those monsters here in town that could be causing this many disappearances,” Sam added. 

“Why did y’all ask me about this? Why not anyone else? This-this is a lot,” You say.

“Because you were the only one willing to talk to us about this. No one else said anything about the disappearances.” Dean said. 

You just looked between the two brothers, nothing spoken, but you nodded and agreed to help in any way you could.

“So you said you may know what this is? What do you think it is?” You asked, looking to Sam, who slowly made eye contact with you. 

“Sounds like sirens,” Sam said.

“What are sirens?” You ask, never hearing of that kind of monster before. 

“They’re creatures with the ability to change its appearance, kind of like a shapeshifter, but these guys get into people’s heads and make them think they’re the ‘perfect person for them. It makes me think that sirens have been luring people out of the town as if they were promising people in town something they’ve always wanted but never had. It would explain all the disappearances,” Sam explained. 

“What do they look like so we have an idea of what to look for?” You ask.

“Well that’s just it, kid, you can’t tell what they look like unless you cast their reflection onto a mirror. They typically look like whoever they take the form of but when you see them through a mirror, they have like blackened eyes, like a demon, but a mouth that looks like it’s stitched shut,” Dean answers you, slightly scaring you.

“Y’all don’t need me to help out with this, do you? Like, go with you on the hunt? Cause I really don’t think I should be there,” You say, your stomach-churning as the thought of these creatures plague your mind. 

“No sweetheart, you’ve done more than enough to help us with this case. You gave us a lot of useful information that we’ll need to locate these predators. All you need to worry about is keeping your pretty little self safe at home,” Dean said, winking at you. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As the boys were preparing to go out on their hunt, you couldn’t help but keep your eyes fixated on Sam. He was still doing some research, he said he wanted to get some last-minute information on the town you lived in and the kind of people he would have to encounter who the Sirens had “possessed,” yet something about the way he focused, was captivating all your attention. 

“Is there something you’d like to share with the rest of the class (y/l/n)?” He asked in a teasing voice, breaking you from the concentration you held.

“I’ve never seen anyone research like you do. You’re very dedicated to your work and it shows. Plus, you get a very serious look on your face, and your eyebrows kind of scrunch together when you’re really concentrating; it’s rather cute,” you say, and although you weren't so sure how he’d react, the light pink color that begun to spread over his tanned cheeks gave you all the answers you needed. 

“Well, I can’t say I ever heard that one before and most people don’t use “cute” as a means to describe me, but I find it flattering, so thank you,” he says, giving you a shy smile.

“I take it that not very many people compliment you,” you state. 

“If people get compliment me, it’s because of my hunting skills or some information I found ended up being useful or I saved someone’s life, but the way I look as I concentrate on my work and definitely because I’m ‘cute,’ yeah I don’t hear that often,” he shakes his head but with a giant smile plastered across his face. 

“Hey, you have dimples, those are cute too,” you compliment him again, causing the shade of red on his cheeks to darken. “And by that reaction, I’m guessing a lot of people don’t compliment you on your dimples either, do they?” 

“Actually that one I hear all the time, but it’s still sweet of you to say, so thank you,” he says, smiling down at you. 

“Well I think that’s about enough chick-flick moments I can handle for one day,” Dean said, suddenly appearing in the doorway to the library, surprising you and Sam. “You ready Sammy?” He asks his younger brother who quickly clears his throat and gets up, shutting his laptop and throwing it in a backpack. 

“Yep, all set,” he says. 

“Okay (y/n) so you gonna be okay just laying low for a little bit while we go gank these sons of bitches?” Dean asks. 

“Yeah, I have a hot date with Netflix, popcorn, and comfy pillows and PJs for the night. I’ll be good,” you say.

“Well if you need anything, we left our numbers down here for you and we’ll come back and let you know what our outcome was since this is your town and you helped give us information on this case,” Dean said, giving you a slip of paper before he climbs behind the wheel of his sleek black classic car. 

Sam, who remained standing in front of you for a minute, waited until the door slammed shut before he spoke up. 

“As Dean said, if anything happens, just, don’t hesitate to call and we’ll be there. I uh, would hate to see something happen to you,” he said, shoving his hands in the pockets of his jeans. 

“Is Sam Winchester paying me a compliment now? From what I’ve heard, that’s not common for you,” you said. 

“What you heard?” He asks, worry filling his tone. “Who-who did you talk to?” 

“No one silly but you don’t think I didn’t research y’all when you came to town? Believe it or not, there is a national name file for both of you and I’ve read about a lot of the time officers have been after you. Remember, I work for a police department; I can find out a lot about your demons,” you said, grinning at the man who still stood before you but suddenly seemed a bit smaller at that moment.

“Oh, that’s pretty smart and also kind of scary. Guess we can’t lie to you after all,” he says. 

“Nope, because I always have a way of finding out the truth, plus “poses as fake FBI agents” came up as reasons why police officers need to be careful with you two. Although they haven’t had any run-ins with y’all in a long time,” you add, smirking at the stunned expression on the youngest Winchester’s face. 

“Oh uh, yeah, we’ve been trying not to get into too much trouble lately, well at least not getting arrested,” he says.

“Yeah, I read about the few times that happened,” you add with a wink.

“Okay, so I’m going to go mostly cause I’m a bit scared now but there’s also not the best thoughts going through my head right now, so we’ll talk soon, okay?” He asks and when he sees you nod your understanding, he nods quickly back to you and hurries off to his brother’s car, and climbs into the passenger seat. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                           Sam’s POV

“Hey, you okay there, Sammy? I haven’t seen you that uptight about a girl in, well I don’t know long,” Dean says, smirking when he sees whatever look is on my face right now.

“Yeah, yeah, I’m good,” I lie, knowing damn well what he was trying to get out of me. 

“Really? Cause it seemed like (y/n) was getting to you a bit back there,”

“No, she’s, she’s fine,” I say, trying to end this discussion. 

“Yeah, but are you?” He asks. 

“So I’m thinking when we get there, we should go right in, guns blazing and everything. No time to waste today,” I say, hoping desperately Dean would just drop the topic of (y/n) so we could focus on our case, and luckily he did. 

There wasn’t anything wrong with (y/n), quite the opposite actually, and that was the problem. She was so infuriating, knowing that she could find out every little secret Dean and I had in the last, shit I don’t know how many years, and the fact she was so smug about it; who does she think she is?! Is she even allowed to do that? Like can’t employees of the police department get in trouble for looking up information about people? Well, maybe not, because they need to know what kind of people they have to deal with but like I told her before, we can’t hide anything from her! Not that I want to or anything but there are certain parts of this job I don’t think she should have to know about. Then again, we did tell her about what we really do out for a living so I can’t imagine too much more information would be bad for her to know. I just can’t see her knowing every little detail about our lives! I mean, yeah we’ve only known her for a couple of days since we came to town but already I can tell she is so sweet and so pure in certain things. I can’t imagine her reaction to some of the stories we could tell her. Wait am I saying? She works for a freaking police department; she probably hears horror stories on a regular basis! She may be sweet but I bet she’s more tough than she makes people believe.

“Earth to Sammy! Come in Sammy!” Dean says, bringing my attention back to him.

“Huh?” I say, looking at him.

“I said, are you ready? We’re here.” 

I looked around where Baby stopped and saw we were in fact, there.

“Oh, yeah, I’m ready,” I say, opening the door to get out, gun ready at my side. We walked to the house where the last disappearance occurred and slowly made our way inside. The house was a mess,  documents and files thrown across the floor, books and their shelves broken down; it looked like a tornado blew through here. Just as we made our way further in the house, up to the bedrooms, some lady came out of nowhere and tried to stab me but thankfully Dean heard her before I did so he was able to shoot her before she got to me.

“Thanks,” I say before having to turn and fight off another Siren who went for me again, Dean fighting off his own. 

This went on for a while until we figured we killed them all and we could head back to meet with (y/n) until my phone started to ring. 

“Hello?” I ask when I answer the phone.

“Sam?” A small voice asks. 

“(Y/N)? What’s wrong?” She sounded scared; my senses going into overdrive. 

“I-I need help. I don’t know where I am but...something happened….” She says, sounding like she was crying.

“Okay (y/n) where are you? What do you see around you?” I ask and Dean comes closer to my side. 

“Um, it’s dark and I can’t see too much. I-I’m sorry,” she says, crying again.

“Hey, no, don’t you apologize. You did nothing wrong. What do you remember?” 

“Um, I was just sitting in the apartment living as I told you I was going to do and then someone got inside and then I blacked out and when I woke up, I was here. I-I think I’m tied up and I’m in a lot of pain. I-I don’t know what happened Sam but I’m scared,” she sounds so helpless at this point. 

“Hey, baby, listen to me alright, you’re going to be okay, okay? Dean and I are going to come to find you and we’re going to fix you up well, I promise,” I say, trying to calm her down. I know she’s scared but I hope I can settle her down a bit. 

“Okay and Sam, hurry, please?” She asks, more desperate than before. 

“We will, we’re on our way now. I’m going to stay on the phone with you so we can try to see if we can tell where you’re at okay?” I look to Dean who immediately takes my silent signal and rushes out the door and right out to the car. We jump in and race to figure out where (y/n) may be. I can hear (y/n)’s breathing get quieter and I’m afraid if she falls asleep, she won’t wake up.

“(y/n) can you hear me? Hey, I need you to talk to me, okay? I need you to keep talking,” I say as I keep trying to hear for any background noise to see if we could tell where she was. 

“I really don’t have anything to say,” she says, her voice fragile.

“You never told me, why you chose to work for the police department,” I say, trying to see if that would get her talking. 

“Well I needed a-another job and-a job as a-dispatcher came out so I-went to apply-and I-I ended up-getting that job-but with m-my training it-it became too-too hard so I transferred-to where I am n-now.” 

“That’s good,” I say, smiling at her, even though I knew she couldn’t see it.

“Yeah I-I also wanted t-to help people,” she adds. 

“I bet, you’re so good at helping people and I’m so proud of you,” I say, trying my hardest not to get upset myself. I can’t say for certain what I feel right now for (y/n) but I do know I care about her and I told her, I would hate it if anything happened to her and I don’t take that lightly. 

“Sam, it-it hurts,” she says, and my heart breaks a little more when I hear just how uncomfortable she is. 

“I know baby, but it’ll be over soon; I promise,” 

“S-Sam?” She asks. 

“Yeah?” 

“Why-why do you keep calling m-me baby?” Damn, she may be in agony but she still picked up on that. 

“You’ve caught that huh? Well, you are my baby,” I admit. 

“But wouldn’t that mean I-I’m your girl?” 

“You are my girl.” 

“But we-we aren’t dating!”

“I know, but I want to change that,” I say.

“Really? You-you want to d-date me?” I can hear the tiniest bit of hope arise in her tone so I continue to talk about it. 

“Of course I do! Ever since we met, I was immediately attracted to you. I thought you were so beautiful and you had a bit of an attitude too. But I thought it was cute. And then you have a bit of an accent and whenever you say y’all, you sound like a true Texas girl and it makes me smile. I know you said at one point, you weren’t from here longer than 6 years but you seem to be a Texan to me and it’s very attractive. I want to take you out and get to know you better; you have no idea how much I wish I could be there to hold you right now,” I exhale, everything finally coming out about how I was feeling. The line remained silent and I began to panic until I heard, 

“I feel the same about you, Sam,” she said, clear as day. 

“Well, why don’t you keep fighting to stay alive so I can take you on that date and give you all the hugs and cuddles you deserve?” 

“That sounds great,” she said before a blood-curdling scream pierced my eardrums. 

“(Y/N)?!” And with that, the line dropped. “Dean, we have to find her!” I grow weary as I feel the acceleration of Baby set forth by Dean. I tried to track whatever phone (y/n) had called from and was able to find out the last known location.

“Okay so the phone is pinging from up the road about two miles; she can’t be too far away,” I tell Dean, more determined than ever to find her. 

“We’ll find her Sammy; I know we will.” Dean tries his hardest to help ease my worries but the sound of her scream is taunting me. 

When we got to the location the phone was pinging from, there wasn’t much but an old house that appeared to have been partially burned down a few years ago. I couldn’t imagine why anyone would want to use this house as any means of suspicious activities but I can’t understand people. I jump out of the car and rush inside, holding my gun out in front of me, ready to shoot anyone who crosses my path. 

“(Y/N)?!” I yell out when I’m inside the house, Dean close behind me. 

“Sam!” I hear a voice yell back at me and I rush towards where the voice was coming from. 

“Dean!” I yell, as I’m almost attacked by a Siren but Dean shoots it before it gets to me. 

“Go find her, Sam, I got this,” Dean says and I rush off to find (Y/N).

“(Y/N)?” I call out again and am met with her reply, sounding a lot closer. When I turn the corner into another room, I see her tied to a table, in nothing but her bra and underwear, and blood dripping down from her abdomen. I rush over to her and immediately start untying her restraints. 

“Sam?” A small voice squeaks out and two big (y/e/c) eyes land on me. 

“Hey pretty girl, you got some pretty nasty injuries here. I’m going to get you untied and I’ll take you back to your place and fix you up, okay?” I say as calmly as I can. I know she’s very fragile, just like she was on the phone, but I work diligently to set her free. Once I get the last restraint undone, I slowly and cautiously lift her under her arms and legs and carry her bridal out of the house and out to the car. She groans when I gently place her in the back seat but before I could walk away, she grabs my hand. 

“Will you stay back here with me, please?” Well, how was I going to say no to that?

“Of course pretty girl,” I say, climbing in and sitting beside. I lay her head on my lap, stroking her hair and having her hold a towel on her stomach. 

“So I’m a pretty girl now, huh?” She asks, looking up at me. I smile down at her, blushing just a bit at her comment.

“Well I thought baby was a little too romantic right now and since we haven’t even gone on a date yet, I figured pretty girl had just enough effectiveness but not too much into the romantic side of things,” I explain.

“I like these nicknames you’re using for me; they’re sweet,” she says.

“I’m surprised you’re even able to pay attention to what I’m calling you or not in your state right now,” I say.

“Hey, just because I’m hurt doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate when a very attractive man compliments me. Hell, if I had more strength, I’d probably kiss you right now.” 

“I can help with that,” I say, gently tilting her head a bit further back so I could easily kiss her. And I did but I held back a bit for fear I would hurt her more. So I left a small yet powerful, I’d hope, kiss on her lips, with a small taste of blood behind it. I looked up to see Dean grin at us through the rearview mirror, ignoring whatever he was hinting at, but I couldn’t help the small smile that played on my lips. 

We decline to take (Y/N) back to her house for fear something like this would happen to her again. She put up no fight, not that she really could if she wanted to, but I felt better about it because now, I wasn’t going to let her out of my sight. Because last time I did that, she ended up hurt, and it was my fault because I left her alone. 

Back in the room, I give up my bed as Dean helps me lower her so we could get a good look at her. The shirt she was wearing had a rather large stain of blood on one side so the only way to get to the injury was to cut the fabric away from her. I grab a pair of scissors and right before I begin to cut, I hear her cry out,

“No Sam, it-it hurts!” She says as she wiggles around on the bed, trying to escape the pain. 

“I know pretty girl, but you need to trust me. We have to cut this shirt off because your injury is too severe; it’ll hurt worse if we don’t cut it, okay?” 

She nods her head and I take her hand in mine, as I give the scissors to Dean, who slowly begins to cut her shirt, careful around her injury, and I can tell just by the look on her face, she is in a lot of pain. There’s nothing I would rather do than switch places with her but that is not possible. So I bring her hand up to my lips and kiss it tenderly, reassuring her that I would never leave her.

“Alright Sam, we’re going to have to disinfect this and stitch her up,” Dean says, giving me a somber expression. 

“Yeah, okay,” I said, nodding to him.

“Will you hold her down? It’s going to hurt and I got a towel for her to bite down on,” Dean says.

I look down at the girl lying helplessly beside me and she looks so sad and afraid but I knew it had to be done. “It’s going to be okay, baby, I’m going to be right here the whole time,” I say to her as Dean pours some whiskey on the injury. It was a good thing we had that towel because I couldn’t bear to hear the entirety of her screams. Just her muffled cries broke my heart to the point I began to cry with her. She did not deserve this; she did nothing wrong. As quickly as he could, Dean began on the stitches, sowing her up remarkably fast. 

“She’s done,” Dean says. 

“Great,” I say, helping him clean up but a groan from (y/n) stops me. 

“Sam?” She says, sweat glistening her body. 

“I’m right here,” I say, coming back to her side. 

“Lay with me?” I couldn’t say no so I moved the sheets aside and crawled in next to her. 

“Thank you for saving me, Sam,” She whispers after Dean decided to leave the room to get some food and medicine for (y/n). 

“There’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you, (y/n).” 

“Do you really like me, more than a friend I mean?” She asks

“I do. In a short amount of time, I’ve grown to care about you and your well-being. I want to do anything to make you happy and to protect you,”

“So does this count as a date then?” She asks, in all seriousness, and I just laugh.

“Oh no sweetheart, I will go all out for a date with you. Nothing is too much for my girl unless you say so. And I don’t see either one of us being hurt,” I say. 

We both laugh until (y/n) begins to groan again. “No, it hurts to laugh,” she says, as we both still laugh.

“Stop making me laugh,” She whines. 

“I can’t help it, sweet girl, I love the sound of your laugh,” I say, leaning down to kiss her temple. 

“Well I can’t wait until you can kiss me properly,” she says. 

“Believe me, pretty girl, it’s all I think about but until then, you get better, then I’ll kiss you like you deserve to be kissed.” 

“Well then, I can’t wait.” 

Taglist: @tloveswriting @calaofnoldor @thinkinghardhardlythinking @to-my-beloved-fandoms-2 @angeredcrow @spnjediavenger @440mxs-wife @fandom-princess-forevermore @sam-winchester-admiration-league @thwiso @lyarr24 @grace15ella @deansmyapplepie @akshi8278 @baby1967impala @suckmysupernatural @slutforfics

[morningsound15]

i seem to remember you giving some podcast recs that i wanted to check out, but for some reason i can't find them on your blog anymore. am i mistaken? if not, do you think you could repeat them?

omg hi! sorry tumblr was NOT showing me any asks i’m really sorry idk when you sent this but yes! i love this question i love podcasts, and i think i’ve rec’d a few individual episodes? but i’ve definitely not made a whole post so i’m so down for this

idk what sorts of podcasts you listen to but i basically divide my podcasts into shit i listen to for education (leftist podcasts, news podcasts, etc,) and shit i listen to to keep myself sane (pop culture/movie/music podcasts, gay podcasts, tv recap podcasts of shows i used to watch) so i’m gonna give you a lot! basically my whole podcast queue list lol

i’ll link you to their online pages (if they have some! either youtube or a digital library) but most of them are on spotify i believe, a lot of these podcasts also have patreons and i personally listen to all of them through apple podcasts\

(under the cut because it’s LONG hope this helps!)

shit for education:

in a clump right off the top:

-- Revolutionary Left Radio - #1 essential listening for people interested in socialism, leftism, communism, marxism-leninism, etc. current events analyzed with leftist theory, great interviews, honest perspectives from organizers.

-- Red Menace - featuring the host of Rev Left, a podcast that mainly deep dives into leftist theory and texts (specifically marxist-leninist theory, but also mao, fanon, stalin, etc.) if you are new to theory and have trouble tackling difficult texts, this is the podcast for you

-- Guerrilla History - from the host of Rev Left, a podcast that looks at revolutionary uprisings from the perspective of those on the ground, using the past to help make sense of the present

and then some others:

-- 5-4 - "A podcast where we dissect and analyze the Supreme Court decisions that have made this country –by a wide margin– the worst country in the world" all about the us supreme court and the decisions that keep us strangled. great legal analysis highly recommend for people who care about the courts

-- Bad Faith - featuring former bernie sanders press secretary briahna joy gray and chapo trap house host (i know guys i know) virgil texas, this is a more accessible introduction to thinking outside of the american political binary. for people who liked bernie and need to figure out where to go next, this podcast might be helpful, or it just might feed your petty soul

-- Citations Needed - if you only listen to one american news podcast, let it be this one. with a focus on american news and how our news industry manipulates us into supporting imperialism and mass death

-- Death Panel - on pop culture and politics, particularly focusing on the healthcare industry in america and why it’s designed to kill all of us.

-- Decolonized Buffalo (youtube) - with a focus on decolonial theory and current events

-- IT’S GOING DOWN - with a focus on revolutionary anarchist, anti-fascist, anti-capitalist grassroots revolts and social movements across north america.

-- Millennials Are Killing Capitalism - i really recommend everyone follow the host of this podcast josh briond (@ jos.hau on insta and @ queersocialism on twitter) because they have been fundamental to my personal journey into leftist literature, their podcast is incredible and their pop culture takes are always fire. interviews, theory, essential takes on the news.

-- Moderate Rebels (podcast / youtube) - if you want to learn about international news/foreign policy from an anti-imperialist source, Moderate Rebels is the best recommendation i can give you. greyzone reporters Max Bluementhal and Ben Norton host a weekly news podcast that is essential listening if you want to understand what it is to live in the core of the world’s imperialist center

-- Radical Reflections - for an international perspective on revolutionary history, from a comrade based in scotland

-- The Black Sublime Podcast - for a black, queer perspective on pop culture, politics, oppression, and liberation

-- The East is a Podcast - for a perspective on leftist theory, history, and revolutionary movements centering people from the (quote unquote) ‘east’. recent episodes cover such topics as (including but not limited to) china, india, paul robeson, war, decolonization, palestine, iran, tunisia, and strongly centering muslim writers, thinkers and scientists

-- The Minyan - jewish comrades! (specifically marxist-leninist)

-- The Red Nation Podcast -- indigenous comrades (mostly in north america - USA/Canada). essential listening for anyone living in emperial/colonial powerhouses in north america. The Red Nation also has great educational resources

-- Useful Idiots - standard news podcast from people much smarter than me who hate the political establishment almost as much as i do. they have some really good interview episodes

-- Working Class History - some really cool episodes on important events in working class history! great episode on The Exotic Dancer’s Union aka the first stripper co-op in america

shit for sanity/fun:

-- Bad Romance Podcast - comedians jourdain searles and bronwyn isaac watch terrible romantic comedies and then tell you all about them

-- Buffering the Vampire Slayer - THE buffy rewatch podcast! they’re deep into season 6 at this point, but features great (gay!) content, buffy analysis, excellent guests, interviews with the original cast, and an original song every episode based on that episode. this podcast brings me only joy

-- Girls on Porn - a porn review podcast featuring only ethically-made porn, tackling kink, fetishization, racism in the porn industry, and so much more

-- GLEEwind - don’t judge me lol i like recap podcasts and this one has the right amount of fun with the right amount of will schuester hate

-- How Did This Get Made? - funny people (and great actors) Paul Scheer, June Diane Raphael and Jason Mantzoukas watch truly awful movies and then talk all about it

-- Keep It! - for everything in music, tv and celebrity culture featuring Ira Madison III, Louis Virtel, and Aida Osman. great interviews, always makes me laugh

-- Las Culturistas - bowen yang and matt rogers’ weekly culture podcast, also featuring great interviews and a lot of survivor talk

-- Popcast - i don’t like the NYT but i do sometimes like their music podcast, they review new shit, big shit, and all the shit you might be hearing about from the music world

-- Still Processing - again, do not like the NYT but DO like what jenna wortham and wesley morris have to say about what’s happening in the world

-- The Big Picture - another movie podcast! this one features great interviews with actors and directors, as well as takes on popular movies that i generally agree with (although way too much love for marvel movies for me)

-- Why Won’t You Date Me? - nicole beyer’s hilarious podcast where she talks to other comedians about their dating woes. surprisingly heart-felt, always hilarious

[stonerbughead]

Maria watches friday night lights (#36)

5x13, the series finale i have heard nothing but good things about - I made it y’all! *wipes tear* this is a show i will definitely rewatch! It definitely feels like the kind of show that’s so layered that every time you go back you’ll pick up something new. I love shows like that.

i haven’t been on tumblr on my computer in a long time but im gonna go through and add “read more”s to all of these recaps! 

(thanks to anyone who read these nonsense recaps! if you enjoyed these...in addition to my currently-on-hiatus riverdale podcast @bodysuitsforbughead, I have another teen drama-centered podcast in the works, follow @LeftyTeenDrama on Twitter and @leftistteendrama on Instagram to get updates when it launches! I’m taking a break on working on it till i move but it’s gonna be a big part of my 2021 projects. I’ve already recorded one episode with two of my favorite people in the world and it’s gonna be amazing. It will be about a variety of teen dramas, but FNL will definitely be included.)

and without further ado, my final FNL ramblings under the cut:

And we open with one last montage of shots around Dillon from a car, with a “Christmas in Texas” song playing. Amazing. 

Oh wow, I love the “FIVE DAYS TILL THE CHAMPIONSHIP” vibe. The build-up is already here. A shot of Julie in the stands watching practice! 

It’s super uncomfortable that people are talking to Vince about his “future teammates” on the Panthers before the post-season is even over.  “I don’t really wanan talk about that. I want to talk about how the East Dillon Lions are gonna win State.” “Is that a promise?” These Texas sports journalists are WILD. this is a teenage boy whose school’s funding just got cut right before the biggest game of his life! Can we have some sympathy?!

“I hear they’re taking the cream of the crop for the Superteam so I’m gonna be honest with you, what are you gonna do?” EXCUSE ME SIR? I repeat, TEENAGE BOY. Tinker’s response of “you’re an asshole” and storming away was more than appropriate!!!

“No comment”ing his way out of there like a champ.

Ah, the age-old tradition of decorating a Christmas tree while arguing about a five-year football coach contract in Dillon or a dean of admissions job offer at a prestigious Philadelphia college. Julie’s just sitting there with Gracie like ooooh boy 

“Here is where we put our tree, not Philadelphia! It’s a Texas tree.” OMG STOP IT. Lol Julie putting her hands over her ears.

YAY MATT SARACEN IS AT THE DOOOOORRRRR im so excited

Wow I did not expect this proposal to come that quickly into the episode! Like i knew it was coming in this episode but aw. They’re so soft! Just like, oh i’ve been thinking about you nonstop since our perfect Chicago tryst and oh look here’s grandma’s ring let me casually get down on one knee in the town where we fell in love. And after she was just talking about how much she misses Matt to Tyra the episode before? That “yes” she gave feels so certain because of it. Aw.

The grandma’s ring really fucks me up because you know how close Julie and Grandma Saracen have gotten over the years. My heart!

“Oh my God, your dad must’ve flipped.” “...What do you mean?” OH NO Eric Taylor is totally the type to care. “...When you asked him to marry me.” Oh I knew this proposal was too early in the episode, im dying!

“You need to go man to man.” Ugh Julie i liked Matt’s plan of just going and telling them much better. His look of fear when he repeats “man to man.” dead. 

Wow no theme song??? That’s how you know it’s gonna be a long series finale!

Andddd here we are, a bickering Riggins “I may or may not be going to Alaska.” “Is it because you raw dogged Tyra last night?” i literally gasped.

LMAO Mindy trying to say Tim and Tyra are incest now that Mindy and Billy are married and then Tim and Billy immediately being like “nope, no blood lines, that’s not how incest works.” Someone should send that memo to all those anti bughead stans about bughead and falice

“What do you think about me taking Stevie for the day?” “I’m fine with that. There’s no going back, I’m going to get the bag.” LOL Mindy spoken like a true parent also YES to Tim and Stevie spending time together.

Poor Jess not realizing that asking Eric if she can follow him to the Panthers is a much bigger question than she thinks se’s asking.

AWW Tim and Stevie at Grandma Collette’s. How cute. 

“Seven’s back in town?” “Yeah, he and Julie got engaged!” 

Tim/Tyra and Matt/Julie double date?? Aw I love that Tyra knows that Matt and Julie got engaged. I really love Tyra and Julie’s friendship. 

I’m laughing really hard at Matt’s speech to Eric trying to ask permission. This is so funny. 

Eric’s like, “is this kid serious rn?” 

Not to be that northern bitch but don’t kids get married at 18/19 all the fucking time in Texas?? I feel like it’s more common in even more rural parts of like...any state.

“The answer to your question is gonna be no today, it’s gonna be no tomorrow, and it’s gonna be no until the sun burns out.” LMAO wow i didn’t see this coming

“This was really just a courtesy, we were hoping for your blessing.” YES MATT.

OH BOY Eric did not just try to speak FOR his daughter, im not about it. “My daughter’s answer to you is ‘no.’” That’s some patriarchal shit right there.

“We’ll never know if we’re East Coast people if we don’t try it!” “We have a MUCH BIGGER problem.” Dude, it’s Matt Saracen, the softest boy who has loved your daughter for years, i actually think the fundamental decision of where you and Tami continue your future might be slightly more pressing. 

“I don’t know why you’re yelling at me! I think we agree on this!” IM SCREAMINGGGG 

Aw, Tami getting teary-eyed at Grandma Saracen’s ring. “It’s just, y’all are so young.” I know but this is a TV show universe so we let teen marriage slide for the right couples, ok. 

Tami and Eric wanna take Matt and Julie to A CONVERSATION DINNER??? This is gonna be so funny. 

Aw, Vince got his dad a ticket to state? “I want you to be there.” if this fucker doesn’t just come and shut his mouth

Oh wow Becky’s mom is finally coming back? And yay Becky’s finally over her Tim crush. “So friends?” “I say family.” AWWW MY HEART.

“You guys were our age when you got married.” ARE YOU SERIOUS? “It was a different time.” Y’all have no leg to stand on here.

“Marriage requires maturity.” Says the man who won’t let his wife take a huge job offer. What, who said that? (Okay the way Tami’s watching Eric give this speech about compromise, thinking she’s thinking the same thing.)

“You guys got married when you were my age, and how many times did you move? How many different things you’ve gone through and look how you’ve made it work. You guys are my inspiration.” AW. I wish my parents had a stable enough marriage to be able to say that LOL but nope.

OH NO poor Tami getting up from the table because she’s emotional! Because she’s clearly always thought of her marriage that way too but maybe not lately AH

Eric, babe, that’s your cue to follow. 

Oh shit, Jess’s family is moving to Dallas? Well, damn.

Eric saw Vince not take a ticket for his dad and came to his watering hole to hand deliver it? “Young man gets a chance like that maybe once in a lifetime.” and mic drop, walk away.

Luke casuaklly meeting Becky’s mom for the first time while coming by to try to win Becky back. “I love you. I’m so sorry.” AWWW. growth!

YES cheers to Matt and Julie! “Here’s to Mr. and Mrs. Saracen.”

“Always thought you’d be the first person to say that.” AW

Yes halfway through college, go Tyra!

Awwww, Matt being like “let’s dance” and pulling Julie up. So cute. Yes, Tim asking Tyra to dance. 

“I got plans.” “I don’t.” OMG is Tim saying he’ll just follow Tyra? Damn.

Why tf is Buddy calling Eric first thing in the morning to tell him about Buddy Jr.’s cast and “staying here el permanente” and GETTING HIM TO SIGN A CONTRACT BEFORE THE GAME? Y’all are shady as fuck!

I love that seeing the Braemore papers made him stop, tell Buddy off, and not make a decision in that moment. What’s gonna happen???

“I won’t be a part of your Superteam after all.” Hopefully Eric won’t be either! Aw Jess thanking him “for the greatest experience of his life.” “I think it’s been mine too.” AW.

Eric’s gonna give a coach in Dallas a good word for Jess? So beautiful. Yesss!

AW Julie and Matt decorating the Saracen Christmas tree, and Grandma trying to get Julie to wear her old wedding dress!

Emotional at this hug between Julie and Mrs. Saracen. “I love you.” “I love you too.”

Awww Vince finally being glad that Jess is part of the team...at the moment when it’s about to end.

Yess Tyra and Tim picnicking on the land? 

And YES to Tyra going into politics, I could see it! “Along the lines of Mrs. T. Except bigger.” YES GURL.

“I’ve been in love with you since I was five years old.” AWWW that is so precious. 

“I’m gonna build a house exactly where we’re sitting. I’m gonna get a job. And I’m never gonna do anything illegal for the rest of my life.” Oh, Tim. my heart!!!

“Maybe one day, our dreams can merge together.” THAT’S SO BEAUTIFUL. What more does one really want? Oh, these beautiful life-filled shots of them drinking beer on the land where Tim wants to build a house. Art!

Oh shit, Eric’s racing to get to Santa in time to be there with Tami and Gracie?! “You scared me half to death. What’s going on?” 

“I turned the contract down. It’s your turn. I want to go to Philadelphia. Will you take me to Philadelphia with you, please?” YESSSSSSSSSSSSS what they deserve! What Tami deserves!!!! My heart!!!!

Ugh, the imagery as they get to State is amazing. The boys taking in the field, the players suited up praying and getting in the zone beforehand. The screaming in the stands waiting for them.

“You may never know how proud I am of you.” “You changed my life, coach.” AW.

Eric’s pre-game prayer overlaying the image of the Lions bursting out onto the field! Yes yes yes!

The way they slowed everything down with just music, and focused in on the faces of so many characters - Vince’s dad showing up, Eric and Tami saluting one another from stand to sideline, Becky cheering in the stands excitedly for Luke, Matt and Julie holding each other, Buddy on the sidelines screaming, Vince’s mom jumping up and down - just absolute perfection. 

And we’re back in, with actual in-scene sound at 26-21 with 3 seconds left on the clock??? Jesus!

AH and every single character watching the football fly in the air, WOW the DRAMA.

Holy shit, they fast-forwarded to one of Eric’s players in Philly catching a football eight months later in Philly??? THIS SHOW IS SO GOOD. WOW.

Tami looks like such a badass strutting around campus!

YES Tinker is on the Panthers! Take that, bullying reporter! 

Aw, the East Dillon Lions sign coming down. :( feels.

Nooo Luke don’t go to the military! Noooo I hate that. Poor Becky. They’re the exact type of couple who gets caught up in that really sad cycle - too poor to really have many other options, so the whole “free college when i get out!” thing starts to look really attractive. smh.

But i love how they used the championship ring he gave Becky as a way to signal that the East Dillon Lions did, indeed, win the state championship eight months earlier...and that Jess is wearing the ring on the sidelines of a new field where she’s working with the coaches! amazing!

Yay Matt and Julie live in Matt’s beautiful Chicago apartment? Perfection. They really look so good in that city together. 

New beginnings in a new city together for both Tami and Eric AND Matt and Julie? I’m living! It’s what they deserve!

Tim and Billy building Tim’s house and drinking beers! “Texas forever.” “Texas forever.” MY HEART.

“Clear eyes, full hearts.” SILENCE. “Ah, we’ll deal with that later.” LOL

Yesss Tami coming out to meet Eric on the field!!!

“Ready to go home?” “Yeah, let’s go.”

And the lights go off on the field. End show. AMAZING. Truly, an epic series finale! An epic show! I will definitely rewatch and i am so glad i finally did! Thanks to anyone who gave a shit about my ramblings.

[sosation]

On the Passing of Michael Brooks

I only relatively recently became aware of Michael, less than a year ago. In that time he has impacted my life more than any other media personality, more than anyone I’ve never met.

Even though the first time I voted was for Obama in 2008, my political consciousness really began during my 2nd stint of college at UTA circa 2014/15. My history undergrad was waking me up to the power dynamics and hegemonic systems that exist in our society. I was beginning to understand geopolitics under the tutelage of Dr. Joyce Goldberg and getting really wrapped up in 20th century diplomacy. The Snowden leaks had happened and the Michael Brown demonstrations in Ferguson were drawing attention to the militarization of our police forces and their tactics on US citizens. I began to see capitalism as consisting of, and causing and contributing too, countless problems. Then, the 2016 election cycle stoked my already burning interests.

During this time, there was little “left-tube” to be found. Since 2012, streaming on our X Box has been my wife and I’s primary means of entertainment. Slowly more and more of our time was being spent on YouTube. The Young Turks was really the only progressive voice on Youtube, to my knowledge, at that time. (I wasn’t yet aware of Pakman, Kulinski, Seder and Brooks.) And even though they were my primary source of news, I wasn’t crazy about the hyperbolic presentation, Cenk’s ego, or some of the attitudes expressed by various hosts at various times. That being said, I learned a lot. I was exposed to many many great journalists and they certainly helped me solidify and articulate many of the arguments I had been thinking and feeling during this time. I even became a Texas Wolf-Pac Volunteer right after Trump’s election. 

I ended my bachelor’s and master’s programs under the Trump presidency. (May ‘17, Dec ‘18 respectively.) During this time I read and wrote more than I ever have in my life. Under Dr. Christopher Morris, Dr. Patryk Babiracki, and Dr. Pawel Goral, I read Marxist historical theory and studied the history of the Cold War  from the perspectives of the US, USSR and Europe. I also began watching less and less TYT and more Secular Talk, David Pakman, and David Doel. While these shows are great, there was little to no international perspectives or geopolitical discussions happening. (Doel being Canadian accounts for something but, IMO, anyone who lives in the 5 Eyes is hardly a non-western perspective and therefore significantly less valuable in regards to gaining the insight of the peripheries of the globe. As the hegemonic “leader” of the world, Canadians, New Zealanders, Aussies and Brits, can point and laugh at the US all they want but they are taking our lead-systematically and economically.That’s not to say that their perspective is unimportant, just not the same as those outside the western sphere) Furthermore, there is still even less of a historical perspective being represented in regards to current events anywhere on YouTube. No one seems to have a long dureé, an understanding of how history plays out- again and again, and how capitalism is responsible for much of our recent history. Marx did. Michael did. 

I began my teaching career in earnest last summer, 2019, as a Geography teacher. First time I’ve ever had a salary and the first time that I didn’t have to wear a hat (or hairnet) to work. My lunch was 2nd lunch, 12:35-1:15. Here in Texas, The Majority Report was live and it began showing up consistently on my youtube feed so I began watching them while I ate my sandwich and apple, before students from guitar club would show up for a quick lesson before 6th period. I had watched TMR before, particularly live streams on twitch during the first few primary debates this cycle. They reminded me a little too much of an east coast morning talk show for me to take them too seriously at first but I eventually began to see that while Sam is--well-- Sam, the others on the show had quite a lot to say and clear, logical and articulate reasons for their positions...especially this guy Michael. Once I heard that he had his own show it quickly became the most listened to podcast in my feed. (This in itself is no small feet. I’ve been listening to podcasts for hours a day (sometimes 8) since 2012. It, too, no doubt contributed to my education and understanding of our world during this same time period but that is another blog all itself.)

Michael was everything that I was looking for. He was unabashedly a Marxist. He was intelligent and enjoyed rigorous thinking and leftist theory. He was hilarious and did fantastic impressions. He also was compassionate, kind and empathetic. He was a humanist, in the truest sense of the word and he understood, and articulated to me, that Socialism is a humanist movement. After I became a patron, I once asked him on Discord what his credentials were and he said that his Bachelor’s was in International Relations, which explained so much. Again, he was the only media personality that I was aware of that was knowledgeable and curious about the same things I was. He understood history. He valued history and its importance, so much so that he dedicated a separate Sunday show just to “Illicit Histories” where he would invite Historians from all over the world to discuss leftist movements in their own countries and how we could apply those lessons here and vice versa. This was it. This is what was missing from our national discourse--an international perspective and voice, and a historical perspective and voice. Michael was both and he was damn good at it. 

The Michael Brooks Show was an inspiration. Michael, Matt Lech and David Griscom were smart, eloquent, young men who articulated the systemic failures of our time, who critically discussed and analyzed our current political discourse and who pondered possible solutions based in history. The guests of TMBS, the network Michael created, really were the shining feature. Ben Burgis, Artesia Balthrop, Molly Webster, Glenn Greenwald, Adolf Reed, President Lula De Silva, Slavoj Žižek , Noam Chomsky, Dr. Cornel West, Dr. Richard Wolff...the list goes on and on and on. These people brought so much insight to the state of our world. Professors, Journalists, people who have spent their lives working on the cause, a cause for a better future, one based in humanity and empathy. Michael was able to bring his own empathy for humanity into his interviews, asking thoughtful direct questions that got to the heart of the issue-- while simultaneously bringing levity to a serious topic by making jokes in the voice of Gandhi, Mandela, Obama, or Bernie, to name a few. He, fucking, got it man. He understood how the world was connected. He understood that we are ALL humans, and that we all deserve to be treated with dignity, and he understood that Marx was right about a ton of shit and he wasn’t scared to remind you of that. 

Michael, for me, was an exemplar. He was a role model. I looked up to him. I had no idea he was only 13 months older than me, I thought he was probably in his early 40’s just based on the amount of shit that he knew. My personal 10 year goal was to be on his show. I wanted to either become a writer or go back into academia. I even wrote into a show a couple of months back and asked him which was a better choice. He was honored to be asked such a heavy question but didn’t feel comfortable giving that kind of life advice and I don’t blame him. He recommended that I continue teaching high school if that’s what I enjoy doing, and I do, and I likely will. He has shown me how to speak up for ideals that are right, regardless of what people think. Like, I understood that in the abstract, but watching someone do it multiple times a week really put it in my head that I need to advocate for my position publicly. I tell people that I’m a marxist- which in Texas is unheard of, even among leftists. Mostly due to people not understanding labels and what that even means. So I tell them. Thanks to David’s weekly recommended readings I haven’t stopped reading leftist theory even though I finished grad school over a year and a half ago. If TMBS never existed I never would have had the opportunity to read any of that. 

My heart bleeds for Matt and David. I can’t imagine what they’re going though. I want them to continue, to keep the community alive in his name. But I completely understand if that is just too painful. 

I was thinking earlier, trying to find an appropriate historical comparison to his passing. There are many but as a North Texan, the one that I ended up landing on was the passing of Dimebag Darrell Abbot. He did a lot. He accomplished a lot in a short amount of time. He inspired many to do things like him. It was entirely unexpected and not one person, not one, has a bad thing to say about the guy. Dimebag was adored. He listened to people, strangers, fans. He was kind and open-hearted and treated everyone with respect. Which made it extra hard when he passed. The same can be said for Michael. For Michael, since Socialism is more than just music, he inspired us to educate ourselves, to ask questions, to remember the periphery-Latin America, Africa, and Asia,-- to remember history and value it, to be compassionate, to educate others and to be active in our own communities. 

He will be sorely missed. The one thing I keep telling myself is that his death has the potential to bring even more attention to his message-- to help further catapult this movement into something undeniable. To bring more awareness to how power works and to finally activate us to become, as Michael said at Harvard on Feb 1, 2020: machiavellian.

 “...we still have to put work into reminding everybody that (Dr. MLK Jr.) was on the left. He wasn’t a guy who came out once a year and said ‘everybody should treat each other nicely. ...The other thing I loved about this speech was he talked about the fallacy- that certain Christians misunderstand love as a seeding of power. And then Nietzsche came along and rejected christian morality because he thought it was denying someone’s vitality- the will to power in a healthy sense, and he said ‘Love without power is sentimental and anemic. And power without love is abusive and corrosive’ I’m paraphrasing. And that was when I saw, I thought, ‘well here, ok, we know the left-wing Dr. King. Well here is the machiavellian Dr King, and I love it.’ I want the left to have Machiavelli, so we can have the strategy, the ruthlessness, the clarity, to actually win these battles. And be ruthless with institutions. And then I want us to learn how to be really kind to each other, welcoming of a broad set, and actually have a movement that has the capacity to do that.”

Let’s do the best we can to make that happen. Educate yourself about power. Educate yourself about ideologies. Read Marx and Engels. Read Slavoj Žižek and Adolf Reed. Read Michaels book Against the Web: A Cosmopolitan Answer to the New Right. Don’t get caught up in identity politics. Never lose sight of class dynamics. Use this knowledge to educate others and make informed decisions. Register to vote. Run for office. Effectuate real change. Do the intellectual rigor that was happening on TMBS every week, multiple times a week. Thank you for all that you brought to us Michael, you will be sorely missed and I hope to see you at the clearing at the end of the path. 

Anthony Sosa

7-21-20

[agentkentuckypresents-blog]

(agentkentucky)

Coloring Outside the Lines Episode 1: Making Machinima and the New Media Maze

~LISTEN ALONG~

WARNING: Volume Down. This one compressed pretty loudly this time around. 

Transcript (with pictures! Most effective when paired with hitting play):

Hi everyone, my name is Erin Christopher aka Agent Kentucky, and you are listening to, “Agent Kentucky Presents: Coloring Outside the Lines: RWBY, Red vs. Blue, and the Rise of the New Media Community”. This four-week blogcast is being completed as a course requirement for my new media class at Florida State University and will use the creation and dissemination of the Rooster Teeth brand as a case study in the formation of new media communities and the impact of digital storytelling. Now, I feel like there was some jargon there, so I’m going to back it up a minute and talk about what new media is, why I’ve chosen to study this company, who I am as a host in relation to the topic, and then we’ll get into the focus of this week’s blogcast, which is making machinima and the new media maze. So, if you can’t tell, I’m a pretty big fan of wordplay and alliteration, sometimes it comes unconsciously so keep an ear out.

Anyway, if you’re not familiar with what Red versus Blue is, I’ll be explaining more in a little bit, but it’s best known as the longest-running episodic web series ever. Still, if you’ve never seen it, you might be wondering why I’ve chosen “Agent Kentucky Presents” as the title of a blogcast with a focus on Red vs Blue. So first of all I’m from Kentucky, and while yes I can do the stereotypical Kentucky accent, I will not be using it in this blogcast because I figure I grew up in Kentucky, this is my voice, this is a brand of a Kentucky accent. Don’t want to do anything disingenuous, here. But moving on, in Red vs Blue, the Rooster Teeth series that launched the whole company, there are 49 Agents called “The Freelancers”, who are named after US states, so you have Agent Texas, Agent Washington, Agent Carolina, but as it stands Agent Kentucky is still out there adventuring and has not yet shown up. So I figure, for my little blogcast, I’ll be the Agent Kentucky’s stand-in until the real Agent Kentucky makes their debut on Red vs. Blue—and, maybe they’ll have the stereotypical Kentucky accent.

Caption: Say hello to the Freelancers! None of these cool kids are Red or Blue, but stand-in Agent Kentucky is goin’ rogue on the Blue Team (Go Cats?)

Moving on, I think I should explain what I mean by a new media case study before we jump too deep into this. So, within this field of new media studies—which is still really getting its footing in the larger academic world—we’re going to be looking primarily at these new ways stories and information are distributed via the Internet. Kind of delving in deeper into this rise of the web series that we really see coming to a bit of an apex today with the popularity and convenience of streaming, also YouTubers and the social media influencers. New media also encompasses things like the web comic, the visual novel, the listicle, the podcast, the fiction podcast—which has actually been my primary area of research for the past six months I’ve been doing my senior thesis, but the thing is we’d be here forever if I named off everything that counts as new media because it’s always growing and always changing, which makes it challenging to keep up with trends and shifts, but provides for a lot of diversity of material.

So, all research starts out with a core question, even though I’m going to be talking about a lot of different things regarding new media here in this blogcast, but my question I really want to focus on is about community and these web series. So RvB, RWBY, really anything that Rooster Teeth is putting out, you have gen:LOCK coming in January, which is this huge exciting new scifi series helmed by RWBY’s director Gray Haddock and Black Panther’s Michael B. Jordan, probably a more familiar name if you’re not familiar with RT’s stuff, but the point is part of this company’s success has grown out of a backbone of community. 

Caption: Michael B. Jordan is back to snap some retainers (and pilot some bad*ss mechs) as the voice of Julian Chase, protagonist of the upcoming Rooster Teeth Animation series gen:LOCK

And I’m not just talking about audience—for the record, I will be referring to community and audience as totally different things. So you can watch something and never think about it again, hardly talk to anybody about it, it goes out of your mind—but you were still part of the audience. You consumed that commodity. Community, on the other hand, implies further engagement, it implies connection with other audience members, sometimes this brings about the production of transformative works, so we’re talking fanart, that sort of thing. All of this long explication here brings me to my central research question which is, “How is the niche web series a catalyst of community unbounded by geography?” So that rhymes a little but it’s still kind of jargon-y, so I am essentially asking here, what is it about web series like RvB that brings people together so passionately? And obviously, you have a lot of discussions like this going on right now about modern fandom, kind of concerning things on mainstream platforms, by mainstream studios, but I think there’s a personal element here when we’re talking about indie content, especially indie web content, that facilitates the development of a different kind of consumer community—there really are tons of these out there now, but I want to focus on the RT community specifically given their time frame, how they really were ahead of their time on these things. So, kind of presenting a thesis for my question here, I think niche has a lot to do with this development of community by the web series—you’re getting people engaging in conversations who have more specific intersections of interests, I also think creator-community connection has a lot to do with it which is really bridged through social media nowadays, and that’s kind of what we’re going to be exploring here through these four episodes.

Caption: The spectrum of Red vs. Blue Heroes

Which, nature of research, one question leads to another, why focus on these series specifically? For the most part, we’re going to be talking about Red vs Blue but later we’ll touch on RWBY, which if you’re not following along in the blog is spelled R-W-B-Y, it stands for the main characters’ names and the colors they’re associated with, and I’m not just doing this because it lets me make a cheeky little title about coloring outside the lines, but these series really have made a profound impact on the landscape of digital storytelling and what we think about when we produce visual entertainment for the Internet. And going off that, the ways in which these stories have brought so many people together. I think one of the reasons I really latched onto what this company does, especially after watching their fifteenth anniversary documentary Why We’re Here, which is also the title of the first episode of Red vs Blue, is because my own mission as a storyteller, as a screenwriter, a novelist is to write things that bring people together. Things people can talk about, make friends through. I’ve made of my some of my dearest long-distance friends over the years over just nerding out about stuff, so what I’m really curious about is what makes these niche series so powerful as a connective tissue among geographically disparate people.

Caption: Community comes together at the 2017 Rooster Teeth Expo (RTX) in Austin, Texas

So quick history lesson, in 2003, two years before the advent of YouTube, which has essentially become our society’s video hosting and consumption crutch, we see the birth of Red vs Blue, and subsequently the group that will become the founders of currently Austin, TX based Rooster Teeth Productions. Now with 16 seasons and 5 spinoff miniseries under its belt, Red vs Blue was created originally using playable characters in the shooter video game HALO, which was then overdubbed with comedic voice acting and released on Rooster Teeth founder Burnie Burns’ website, drunkgamers.com, where he and his friends, as the title suggests, would do the equivalent of Drunk History, but for video game reviews. The first official episode was released on April 1st, 2003, and the series actually found itself as part of a larger new media content movement called machinima, which was essentially the art of making movies out of video gameplay. Red vs Blue however has become probably the best-known example of this new media genre, having ballooned into the internet smash hit that it is today.

Not to say that there weren’t bumps in the road, however. After RvB started drumming up serious views, the crew got into some pretty hot water with Microsoft because, obviously, HALO was protected under their copyright. However, due to RvB’s massive success and the hordes of new players it actually brought the HALO franchise, the team at Rooster Teeth was allowed to use HALO footage to make Red vs Blue completely free of royalties.

Anyway, so the first episode of RvB, after it premiered in April 2003—see, I rhymed again—essentially became a viral video before the term viral video even entered our vernacular. Okay, say that ten times fast. But really, by the third episode, things were really taking off and the team had started to realize they had struck on something pretty special here. Which brings me to discuss, “how does Red vs Blue even fit into this greater new media genre of machinima?” For the record, I’d never even heard of this genre, or knew that there was a special genre for the type of production Red vs Blue is, and the creators didn’t know it either at the time, so I don’t feel as bad about it as I could.

Caption: “What are YOU lookin’ at?”*

*Not the actual dialogue

Interestingly enough, there’s actually an Academy of Machinima of Arts and Sciences, that’s had its own film festival, awards show, and an expo convention that started in 2008. The first Machinima Film Festival and Awards were held in 2002, in which Anachronox: The Movie, a short film created using the 3D role-playing game Anachronox, took home best picture. A year later, the prize went to Red vs Blue: The Blood Gulch Chronicles. The first ever machinima films, however, were created around 1996 using the video game Quake. And similarly to Rooster Teeth, you had teams of producers—two of the big ones were called The Rangers and the Undead Clan, who created these early machinima films and distributed them via the Internet.

Now, even though it’s made using an action shooter game, Red vs Blue really isn’t all that much about the fighting—although there definitely is some, it’s certainly not like what you’re going to find in say, RWBY, where you’ve got these super crazy fight scenes and characters whipping out convertible weapons and all that. Rather, Red vs Blue is more about what happens in these humorous conversations among soldiers, and I think that’s one of the big appeals of it. So many times, content is focused on the action, kind of one of the fundamentals of structuring a plot is asking “is this important to the story? Is this important to the characters?” but Red vs Blue endeavors to make the non-fighting, the cracking jokes and dry humor, the focus, that’s the important stuff. There’s actually academic literature out there on RvB as a piece containing anti-war sentiment, I have it linked in the sources if you wanna check it out.

However, I also think RvB has a big appeal due to the interactive nature of the content, starting with its creation and continuing on into its distribution and consumption. So in an academic article on the art of machinima, Dr. Henry Lowood, who is a curator of science and technology history in the libraries at Stanford University, discusses this idea of the player—that is the player of a given video game—as a performer. Which, you know, machinima—the players become the animators, the modelers, the voice actors, but Lowood argues that this is inherent to video games, that the video game experience actually has laid the psychological groundwork for machinima to arise as a form of new media storytelling. So, when you’re playing a video game, especially an RPG, you are, for the most part, in control, you have to literally be inside your character’s head, making decisions for them. That’s why, when games are talked about or reviewed, you’ll see the word “immersive” thrown around a lot, and that’s because so many times when you’re playing video games you are placed into the psychological position of your playable character. According to Lowood, that makes you an actor. 

Caption: A table read of Red vs. Blue Season 10. 

So, of course, machinima producers like the Rooster Teeth founders go the extra mile here, doing voice acting over staged video gameplay, but the point, according to Lowood, is that impetus to create is already there just through the act of playing a video game. So, if we’re looking at RvB’s production as something that amplifies player-game interaction into this new dimension, is it so much of a stretch to claim that that interactive nature is actually directly reflected in the creation of the Rooster Teeth community? Of course, the founders talk about in the documentary how the community forums were created so the fans could really just entertain each other while there were lulls in releasing content, but you also saw the founders having day-to-day engagements with their fans, sort of befriending them, they ended up actually hiring a bunch of their early fans like Gavin Free, Barbara Dunkelman, and Miles Luna who are now trademark company personalities, so you wonder if interactive was just kind of always in the blueprint, and of course carries on into the company mission today.

Finally, I really think that they’ve capitalized—as so many online content creators have—on the simple fact that people process information via narrative. Really, when you break it down, new media studies as a whole is kind of the study of how stories are connecting people. Via the internet, digitally. I mean really that’s intrinsic to the core of humanities, this idea of stories connecting people. All this to say, of course, that this concept of interactive creation, of including the consumer in the narrative, is kind of what it takes to lay the seeds of such a well-connected consumer community.

So, next episode I am going to dive deeper into this creation of community and I would really love to do a Q and A, maybe an interview, so if you’re part of the Rooster Teeth community and don’t mind me reading off your answers to a couple of questions, or if you want to ask me questions regarding this and my research on it, my ask box is open you just can’t send me anonymous messages—so don’t be shy, I only do that for my own safety and security, and you can always request that I not give away your URL when I do the Q and A. Anyway, thanks for tuning in, and we’ll be back with another episode next Friday.

~Peace out, and check out the bibliography under the cut.

AKY

BIBLIOGRAPHY

Lowood, Henry. “Real-Time Performance: Machinima and Game Studies”. Journal of Media Practice, vol. 2, no. 1, 2006, pp.10-17. https://web.archive.org/web/20060101161233/http://www.idmaa.org/journal/pdf/iDMAa_Journal_Vol_2_No_1_screen.pdf . Accessed 14 September, 2018.

Ott, J. “Academy of Machinima Arts and Sciences”. Making the Movie, 7 Aug. 2005, http://makingthemovie.info/2005/08/academy-of-machinima-arts-sciences.html . Accessed 14 September, 2018. 

Starrs, D. Bruno. "Reverbing: The 'Red vs. Blue' machinima as anti-war film", 'Continuum: Journal of Media & Cultural Studies', NY, London: Routledge, 24.2, 2010, pp. 265–277.

Thompson, Clive. “The Xbox Auteurs.” The New York Times Magazine, 7 Aug. 2005, https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/magazine/the-xbox-auteurs.html. Accessed 14 September, 2018.

Why We’re Here. Directed by Mat Hames, Rooster Teeth, 2018.

[wineanddinosaur]

VinePair Podcast: American Wine Has Boundless Potential

American wine has never been in a better place. Wine is now being made in all 50 states, and the map of exceptional wine regions has expanded well beyond California. From Virginia to Michigan, New Mexico to New York, Texas to Idaho, American grape growers and winemakers are finding exciting new sites for viticulture and, in many cases, unfamiliar varieties that are greatly expanding the boundaries and potential for domestic wine.

On this week’s VinePair Podcast, Adam Teeter and Zach Geballe are joined by VinePair tastings director Keith Beavers to give an overview of the current landscape of the American wine industry in conjunction with VinePair’s American Wine Month. They discuss the emerging wine regions in Paso Robles, the Columbia Gorge, and the Great Lakes, and ponder what America’s love of wine tourism will mean for these regions and others moving forward.

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Adam: From the Ritz Cracker display at Publix, I’m Adam Teeter. You don’t get it? But no, really from Brooklyn, New York, I’m Adam Teeter

Keith: From Brick City, I’m Keith Beavers

Zach: And in Seattle, Washington, very confused, I’m Zach Geballe.

A: And this is the VinePair Podcast. Zach, how are you confused? They had a press conference last weekend where Rudy Giuliani came live from the Four Seasons Total Landscaping instead of the Four Seasons Hotel.

Z: I guess…

A: So I’m coming live from the Ritz Cracker display instead of the Ritz Carlton.

Z: I got you. I feel like we’re like a week and a half late on this joke, though.

A: No, I think it’s good. I still think it’s hilarious. We’ll have to wait to see what it sounds like to the listeners, but anyways guys, so this podcast is all about American Wine Month. The month at VinePair, we’re devoting to all things U.S- made wine. I really want to thank our sponsors Virginia Wine, CakeBread Cellars, Domaine Carneros, and 3 Girls.

And I’m excited to talk to both of you about wine. Keith is our guest host, VinePair’s tasting director, for this week. But before we jump into that, we’ve been doing a pretty fun segment at the top of the show every week now about what everyone’s been drinking recently. I’m assuming you guys have been drinking some dope shit as of what happened last week. So Keith, what about you first?

K: Well, some dope shit is correct, Adam. Well, you know, American Wine Month at VinePair, I’ve been deep, deep, deep into American wine. And I’m really excited. I love Virginia wine, and I’ve been tasting some seriously great Virginia wine, and a lot has been sent to us. And it was kind of great. On Saturday, after the big announcement, I sat and drank a bottle of Jefferson Cabernet Franc from the area in which Thomas Jefferson allocated vineyard space, south of Monticello, to actually try to make America a wine-growing nation. And somebody came and they bought the property and they’re doing great things, and it’s just an amazing, beautiful Cabernet Franc so it kind of made sense. And I listened to the Jimmy Hendrix “Star-Spangled Banner” while I was drinking it.

A: Sweet. Zach, what about you, man?

Z: Well, I’ve also been on the American wine train, as I often am. And I think for me this past week, it was a lot of Willamette Valley Chardonnay. So Pinot Noir in the Willamette gets a lot of press, obviously. It’s by far what’s most widely grown and made there, but I’ve been really excited about Chardonnay from the Willamette and in particular a bottle from a producer called Cooper Mountain. Their old-vines Chardonnay, which I think date back to the late ’70s, some of the oldest Chardonnay plantings in the Willamette that are still in use and it was f****** delicious. So, I didn’t pair it with any music, Keith, I’m sorry. Well, pretty much all that gets played in my house these days are the songs my 2-year-old is obsessed with. So unless you really want to know how well Willamette Valley Chardonnay pairs with songs about bucket trucks and skid-steers, that’s another podcast.

A: Please, tell us more. So for me, that Saturday was a day I busted out the top stuff. And I’d had this bottle of Champagne in my house for a while and we just said, f*** it. So I opened a bottle of 2006 Pierre Jouët Belle Epoque Blanc de Blanc and it was awesome. ‘Cause I went out into the park in Fort Greene. Spike Lee was DJing, which was amazing. There was like a crazy amount of energy. And we just sat in the park myself, my wife Naomi, and Josh, who co-founded VinePair with me.

And we just drank the wine and it was really fun to watch everyone. And then people were sharing, you know, glasses and passing stuff back and forth. We had other things, too, but that was like the bottle that we popped first. You know, and it was just, you know, really memorable. And we actually, like, we brought coupes out with us.

It’s like whatever, let’s go full agro here. Just bring the glassware. And it was awesome. I mean, it was just a lot of fun, so that was, that was the most memorable thing I drank last week. Although I will say there was one other amazing experience I had, which was earlier in the day, actually that morning before everything got called, and this is why I was with Josh because I live in Brooklyn and Josh lives in Manhattan, so we don’t normally just find ourselves together when a random event like this occurs and everyone just decides to run out to somewhere and start drinking. But we had a meeting in the morning with Brian, this amazing entrepreneur who founded the sake distillery in Brooklyn called Brooklyn Kura, which now has pretty quickly over the past few years become known as the best Sake distillery outside of Japan. Sorry, sake brewery, and I’d never been to a sake brewery before, actually.

And first of all, the sakes were really delicious, but again, what do I know? I think they were very delicious. I enjoyed them, but I very easily admit that I don’t know a lot about sake, but these pleased my palate. And it was really cool to watch the process until I go back in the back with him and sort of understand how they’re actually making sake. Have either of you ever been to a sake brewery before?

K: No.

Z: I have, yeah, there’s one down in Oregon that I’ve been to.

A: It’s so interesting to watch what they’re doing. I didn’t realize how many people now are making more artisanal styles. Like, growing more artisanal-style rices in certain parts of the country. There’s a lot of really cool rice coming out of Arkansas, which I never would have thought of, and it was cool to watch. They don’t have the machine there that actually refines the rice. They’re actually able to still take advantage of the fact that there’s a lot of commercial sake distilleries in California. He was explaining all this stuff that we’re used to as Americans that sort of turned us off of sake, like the really warm sake bomb-type stuff.

None of that’s made in Japan. That’s all being made by Japanese companies, but in California, which I also didn’t know. But they have all these facilities where they can refine the rice. So they sell them to other people. But then there’s this one guy who he said is a little nuts, out of Chicago or maybe Indiana who’s started to set up his own sake place as well. And he went and bought his own refining machine. So he’ll take some of the more artisanal stuff and then sell them back to people like Brooklyn Kura.

K: This is insane.

A: It’s crazy. But then they soak the rice forever in water which I didn’t realize. And then the thing I didn’t realize is then they cook the rice and then they let a mold grow on it, and it’s actually the mold that creates the sugars that allows the fermentation.

Z: It’s really cool, too, because it’s like this weird kind of simultaneous fermentation. Well, not really two fermentations, but the Koji is producing the sugar out of the starch of the rice at the same time as yeasts are fermenting the sugar. So as you maybe saw some in-process as I have, it absolutely does not look like something you would want to ingest. It’s horrifying.

A: No, it doesn’t. Yeah. It’s literally like they’re just letting mold grow on rice and then when they go to brew it, it then comes out the way that it is, but he also had us taste some wild stuff. So first of all, another thing I didn’t realize was that sake doesn’t really age. He said that it can, but not in a way that you would think about with wine or things like that. Once it’s basically a cold temperature, it is what it is. He said there’s some funk, there’s some people doing some stuff in Japan where they are letting it sit for years and years. And it just changes. It just may not be the thing that everyone wants to drink. I kind of think it becomes a thing where like at the same time now people have a taste for Brett and stuff. It’s like, you get a taste for that kind of like weird funk that develops after the sake gets old. There’s definitely like a small population of sake drinkers that like that, but not a huge group. But that was super interesting to understand. And then they actually dry-hopped sake. And he poured it for us. And I literally thought that I was drinking liquid grapefruit juice. It was the craziest thing I’d ever tasted. And it was pink because it pulls out the colors from the hops, which is weird because hops are green, but for whatever reason, it ends up a pinkish-orange color, and they almost sell it as a rosé. And then of course they’re doing other stuff too. Like they’re making like a Pét-Nat sake. I was like, here we go.

Z: You really were in Brooklyn.

A: Yeah. I was in Brooklyn. I was in Industry City. But yeah, just shout out to them ‘cause they’re doing really cool stuff, and I thought it was delicious.

K: What was the alcohol on the dry-hopped?

A: It was like 12 percent or something like that. 12, 14. So, I mean it’ll hit you, but not in the way that other things will, it was very tasty.

I was very impressed and they’re of course trying to make sakes that they’re not encouraging you to then use as a spirits substitute for cocktails and stuff. Their whole goal is to have you drink the sake as it is. And also their big push, too, is to take it out of the American idea that you’re supposed to have it in those little short sake glasses. They obviously serve theirs in wine glasses and in smaller ones, more like what you would think of a white wine or something at a wedding. That’s kind of the way I think of what glass size they use. But he explained to me, too, where the small sake glass comes from, and it has nothing to do with aromas or anything like that. It’s that in Japanese culture, the more you’re serving the guests, the more pleasure it gives you. And so if it’s a smaller vessel, you have to serve your guests more often. And so that’s the only reason the sake glass is small, because we would constantly be refilling your person’s glass. And so that’s you showing yourself as being a very good host. But of course, Americans, as Brian joked, we see that glass and we’re like, “Sweet! It’s a shot.” We just throw it back. But yeah.

Z: This has been super interesting and I look forward to next year’s American sake month.

A: I know. Totally. But yeah, thanks Zach. You didn’t get the Ritz Cracker joke, now you’re just hating on my sake stuff.

Z: No, no I’m just saying let’s transition.

A: Well, yeah, let’s talk about American Wine Month. So I mean, all of us, we’re from different parts of the country. I mean I lived in the South for awhile. Then went to school in the South and moved up here. Zach you’re from the Northwest and then obviously went to school in New York. Keith’s from all over. Maryland, New York. So we’ve all sort of traveled a lot. And I think what’s really interesting about the United States is that first of all, as we know, there’s bonded wineries in all 50 States. As we noted, Zach, before we started the podcast, just being a bonded winery doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re making wine from vinifera, but they are making some sort of wine. But there’s really cool stuff happening all over the country. And I think what’s so exciting about it, is that it shows it’s not just about three or four of the regions that probably everyone knows. And there’s really amazing stuff coming from everywhere. And I guess my question to both of you guys to just start this is: Is there such a thing as American wine? What do you think American wine is? If someone said to you American wine, what would you immediately think of?

K: For me, I believe American wine is wine made from grapes that are not from here, by people that are not from here. We all came from somewhere else to be here, unless you’re an indigenous culture. And I think that American wine for me is defined by the ability to grow vines that are meant for the soils in which they’re grown in. And the wine is made in such a skillful way that it represents that area, whether it’s a Viognier, whether it’s Petit Manseng, whether it’s Cab Franc, whether it’s Grüner Veltliner, it doesn’t matter. In Texas they’re doing Tempranillo, and people dig it, but they’re also making fruit wine, you know? So I see American wine as this sort of Wild West mentality, but now finally with more information about science and technology, focusing more on the soil, more on where we grow grapes, why it’s good to grow them there. And then, making good wine. So that’s how I see it. And we’re not done yet. The Petaluma Gap in Sonoma was awarded in 2017. In Washington State, I just found out two weeks ago, two more AVAs were awarded in the Columbia Valley. So we’re still working on it, but I think that’s kind of what defines it to me.

Z: Yeah. And I think Keith you capture a really important piece here, which is what I often think about as well, which is this idea of — whether you want to use the Wild West metaphor — or to me, it’s just this idea that there was no existing wine culture in this country in terms of growing or consuming until quite recently. And some of what did exist was wiped out by Prohibition and it was slow to recover. And what’s been really exciting for me about American wine is that we are now at a place with the industry where it’s so much more developed and mature than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. So that not everyone has to feel like they have to make a wine that refers to Europe. I mean, yes, the varieties, the cultivars, the clones, and of course the species itself is European in nature, but we are not necessarily seeing wine regions in the United States feel too confined by established European styles by saying, “Oh, well in Bordeaux, they plant these X number of varieties, and so those are the only things we can plant here.” Obviously you still see a lot of that. I don’t mean that those wines have disappeared. Of course they’re still very popular and rightfully so, but you do see experimentation with all kinds of different varieties and people saying, “Well, why can’t I grow a Spanish variety and a French variety and an Austrian variety and a Croatian variety all in my vineyard? I think they’ll work here. I want to make wines that are of these various styles or from these varieties. And I can do that.” And that’s a freedom that just does not exist in most other places. Few other places in the new world have similar spirits, but here in the U.S. we have this almost endless amount of land that could be potentially converted to viticulture, should someone want to do it.

A: Yeah, I think that’s true. I think the other thing that makes American wine so interesting is that this country is just so big. Every state is almost its own country. So, what works in the Finger Lakes may not necessarily work in Texas. But that’s OK  because there’s other things that can work. And I think the thing that started to define American wine for me, which I really like, is that over the last decade, two decades even, there’s become less of a focus by a lot of the really top producers — and then everyone else has followed — of having to make a wine in America that tastes like a wine from the Old World. It’s like no, the Cabernet from Napa tastes like Cabernet from Napa. There’s less of that now. I remember even early on in my wine journey, I would go to the North Fork and the winemaker would say like, yeah, we’re really going for a Right Bank Bordeaux. And now you don’t hear that as much here. Why aren’t we saying no, this is a North Fork wine, right? This is what it is. And becoming more confident that, yes, we can take the grapes from Europe and the wines don’t have to be copies of the wines from Europe to be considered high quality and to be considered best in class and all of those things. They can be their own thing.

K: And what’s cool about that is the fact that what we did was, in trying to emulate European wine, we created our own styles. Which is really kind of cool. I mean, I know the meritage thing never really took where, you know, in California there was this word called meritage. And if you had a meritage if you used all the Bordeaux varieties and stuff, but we ended up making our own stuff and created our own style, which is really awesome.

A: Totally.

Z: Yeah. And I think actually to the point that you were making, Adam, as well, I think even more excitingly now, not only do you not hear wineries, and wine producers, wine regions say, “Oh yes, our wines are comparable to the wines of ‘pick your French region of choice.'” But even something like Napa, which is obviously an American wine region, I don’t even hear as many wineries, say, “Oh, we’re making a Cabernet like a Napa Cab.” There is a real understanding that what makes a lot of these parts of the country that are growing grapes and making wine so exciting is that they are their own thing. And yes, there’s going to always be some similarities. I mean, to some extent the character of each of these varieties or blends is going to show through, but it’s cool that whether you’re in Virginia, or Washington, or Oregon, or Texas, or Arizona, or any other place, I think the more that producers in those places can be comfortable saying, “We think we’re making a wine that’s really representative of this place and of these varieties of this place, of this vintage.” Those are the wines that I think all of us get excited about. And the wines that are harder to get excited about are someone who’s trying to make a replica of something that already exists. I mean, yeah. If you can make a wine that tastes like Château Margaux and it’s way cheaper, I guess that’s cool. But really the most exciting thing for me is to make a wine that is clearly and interestingly of the place it’s from. And this country has a lot of interesting, cool places. As you mentioned, Adam, it’s this incredibly vast country with incredibly different geology, climates. All these things that make for incredibly remarkable wine regions. And we’re just still scratching the surface. I mean, Keith, you mentioned how there’s new AVAs being awarded all over. And I mean, I was excited to see that Hawaii has now petitioned for its first AVA. The only wine I’ve ever tried from Hawaii is a pineapple wine, which was actually kind of good. But this is vinifera to be clear. But I think that’s super exciting and like, we don’t know. There’s all kinds of possibilities still out there. And the cool thing about wine is that it rewards exploration and experimentation and taking a chance. Of course, not all of them will work out, but there’s always that possibility.

A: My question to you guys is, over the last decade, we’ve seen new regions in Europe that have always existed, but have popped really big in the U.S. and more money has flooded in. So I’m thinking about, for example, like the Jura right? All of a sudden, a bunch of somms are talking about it and it was everywhere. Sicily, specifically Etna. And then all of a sudden, now you have Burgundy producers buying land there. You have Barbaresco and Barolo producers buying land there. What do you guys think? If there was a region that you think was going to pop next in the U.S. and you think, “Oh my God, this is the region that’s going to pop. And every single person is going to realize how great it is, and there’s gonna be money flooding in there.” Is there one or could you think of one?

K: Yeah. I mean, what’s cool about Washington State is it seems to be a really big — what is it, the second largest wine-producing region in the country? And there’s been some very significant investments there starting from back in the day. And I think we’re already seeing investment in Virginia. So to think of a brand new space —

A: No. I’m not saying brand new because you look and Etna existed forever, right? It just, all of a sudden, who knows what it was? It was someone saying like, “Oh my gosh, these are like Burgundy. And all of a sudden, everyone just started dumping money. Right? And it became the thing people were talking about. I’m just wondering, what are a few regions in the U.S. we think that there could be or, maybe there isn’t yet. Maybe there is, I agree with you that the thing I think is most ripe for it is Washington. And that’s honestly just because for whatever reason, Zach might think I’m kissing his a** right now. But for whatever reason, like that stage has flown under the radar for a really long time for no explainable reason.

Z: Allow me to explain why.

A: Please, because the explanation I’ve always heard is that Oregon just got there first or whatever, and people start talking about the Pinot Noirs, and people just forgot that Washington was there, but I’m sure there’s a better explanation than that.

Z: Well, I think that the biggest thing that’s changed about the wine industry in my time in it, and the way that consumers tend to think, is one of the things that worked against Washington for a long time was that it had no clear cut variety or style of wine that was the signature. And there’s certainly plenty of famous and highly priced Washington Cabernets and Cabernet-based blends. Pre-“Sideways,” there was a lot of emphasis on Merlot and I think Washington Merlot is actually really an exciting wine, for sure. But the strength of Washington is almost like the strength of the U.S. in a microcosm. It’s the diversity and it’s all the different things that can be made. And we’ve only, I think just in the last few years reached a place where in the American wine market, there’s actual interest in a lot of different kinds of wines, a lot of different varieties, a lot of different styles.

And so there are still the diehard “I only drink Pinot Noir. I only drink Cabernet. I only drink Chardonnay” folks, but most wine people that I meet these days or talk to, they’re interested in trying something new. And that’s where I think Washington has an incredible possibility, which is to say, “Hey, we are growing over a hundred different varieties.” There are people focusing on all kinds of different things in this state. There are wineries that focus exclusively on Spanish varieties. There are wineries that focus exclusively on white wines from the Rhône Valley and south of France. There are wineries that do just about everything in their own way in various different sizes. And the thing, to come to your question about a region, Adam, I actually think that one of the most exciting places in the country and a place that I think the same kind of people who got excited about the Jura are, or will be excited about, is the Columbia Gorge. And the biggest reason for that is that it is such an incredibly unusual appellation and growing region for Washington. So it’s on the border between Washington and Oregon. And unlike the vast majority of Washington, it’s actually relatively cool and a little bit more wet. So it isn’t as much of a sort of high desert environment like much of Eastern Washington. It’s much more like the Loire Valley in France in terms of its climate, but with a very different geology and a lot more elevation. And so you’re seeing people make amazing whites from both well-known varieties like Chardonnay, but also Grüner Veltliner. People are doing interesting things with Tocai Friulano and then you’re also seeing a lot of interesting cool- climate style reds, which has not been a big thing in Washington State for sure. But there’s interesting Pinot Noir there. There’s amazing Gamay, you’re seeing people do fun things with Cabernet Franc. And, and as you move to the eastern edge of the Columbia Gorge, you do get a little bit more of what we associate with the rest of Washington. So a little bit hotter, but you still have that real river influence. So it is its own area. And what’s cool is you have all the other things that I think draws people to places like the Jura is the producers are all pretty small. There’s no big wineries. So the wines are niche there, and they’re small production. And unfortunately it makes it hard to find some of those wines around the country, for sure. But for people who are interested in exploring, it’s an area where there’s a lot of interesting small- to medium-sized wineries who are doing fun things. And that’s definitely one area, again, because of my proximity is part, that I think is ripe for more discovery around the country.

K: Well, I think based on your question, Adam, this is I mean what it sounds like to me is the United States, we’re still working on it. You know, we have a lot of work to do because in 1980, the first AVA was awarded to Augusta, Mo.  And then eight months later in 1981, the first AVA in California was awarded to Napa Valley. And since then, we’ve had 224 AVAs across the country. And for a long time, like I said earlier, people were forcing vines into soils that didn’t really work so much. But I think it’s not really about what the next exciting region is. I think it’s more about how we, as an American wine drinking culture, approach the places that exist. Maybe for example, Temecula has awesome wine. No one knows Temecula. Paso Robles.

A: I was waiting for it.

K: There it is. I am in love with that AVA. I think it’s an absolute phenomenon that it kind of flies under the radar because there’s a few brand names that are jiving on the American market that you can find in supermarkets in wine shops. But there’s also stuff that you can’t really get outside of Paso. Just like there’s things you can’t get out of Temecula, and things you can’t get out of Columbia Gorge. So I think that one of the things — and again, we’re in a pandemic and it’s different, but that’s not gonna last forever.

I guess what I’m saying is, we get to go to these places and see what these skilled winemakers are making. And I think the next thing with American drinking culture is to explore the diversity of the wines in the area. Let’s get people into Long Island Grüner Veltliner. And the thing is if you can’t get it, well the DTC, the direct-to-customer thing, is getting a little bit better. I think that celebrating what’s fun, and that in doing so we can actually educate the American wine consumer on more varieties, different kinds of cultivars and stuff. Like what’s Grüner Veltliner? Well, it’s this Austrian variety and it’s really awesome in Long Island, you know? So I think that’s where we should go next.

A: Yeah, I think, what’s difficult for people and I would say, you know, the best advice I could give about American wine is, don’t be scared to take a risk. And don’t turn your nose up just because you hear of a state and you’ve never heard that it makes wine before. Because I guarantee you there’s someone in that state making really great wine. Like when I’ve heard people be like, “Oh, Connecticut, they make wine? That can’t be good. Or New Jersey, New Jersey makes wine?” I mean I literally have not, which is a shame, ’cause I’m so close to New Jersey, there’s apparently a lot of amazing wineries in South Jersey. Yeah. You’re in New Jersey in Brick City, or Pennsylvania in Lancaster County, where my wife is from. She’s from Lancaster the city, but in the county, there’s an Amish guy that ripped up his farm and planted vineyards. And honestly, he makes a Merlot that’s amazing.

Z: I think the other area to think about and I’m super excited about, Adam — I think you and I like jokingly mentioned this way back in one of our very first podcasts – but it was like a lot of the states around the Great Lakes area where I think there’s really interesting potential, whether it’s in Michigan or potentially even in Wisconsin. As things start to change climatically, and as places get a little bit warmer potentially and drier during the summer, I think one thing that America doesn’t have a lot of are classic wine regions that are near large bodies of water that are not oceans. And when you compare that to Europe, the Finger Lakes are the one exception and we think the Finger Lakes are super exciting in part because of the possibility that that kind of viticulture provides. And I think you could see some really interesting wine coming out of those States in the next 10 to 20 years. I know one of the challenges for a lot of those areas is that traditionally they get so cold over the winter that there’s only a few varieties you can really plant that are cold-hardy. But, I think you’ve seen more and more development in understanding rootstocks and, and ways to shelter vines. That’s an area that I have my eye on. I think I’ve tried a couple of Rieslings from Michigan. That’s the extent of what I’ve tried from the Great Lakes, but, I’m really excited to see if there’s more investment and interest in putting some time into those.

K: Left Foot Charley and his no-residual, no-RS, no-residual-sugar Riesling from just North of Traverse city is just incredible. And what’s awesome is his winery is located in an old asylum. They took this asylum up in Michigan and then it closed down and they were repurposing it. It’s really intense.

A: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot of opportunities, right? I mean, we’ve talked about Virginia a bunch. Obviously they sponsored American wine month, but we’ve been hot on Virginia for a long time. I think there’s a potential for it to be one of the great wine regions of the country. And especially on the East Coast, there’s a lot of stuff happening there that’s really exciting. And especially as the vintners are getting more up into the mountains, into the actual Shenandoah Mountains, they’re finding the cooler temperatures. They just have to deal with more stuff, and that’s the thing that’s going to be difficult, right? As some of these wine regions expand, how much are we going to be willing to also be OK with some of the things they need to do to be able to make good wine?

So, you know, in Virginia, they have to deal with a lot. And there’s a lot of humidity and stuff like that. And so being 100 percent organic is almost impossible, whereas it’s very easy in Napa. So is “sustainable” going to be enough? Right? Are we gonna be OK if they spray once or twice a year? ‘Cause they have to. I don’t know what it’s like in Texas. I just know Texas is super hot, but maybe it’s a dry heat. I don’t remember where it becomes a dry heat. So there’s gonna be things they have to do. There’s gonna be things that they have to do if we want to be able to have some of these different wine regions succeed. I think it’s crazy that we haven’t seen more. You look at certain regions like New Mexico, right? And the success of Gruet, and how amazing those sparkling wines are. And the fact that we haven’t had others yet, or I’m sure there are, but just other people haven’t followed in a really dramatic way. It surprises me to be honest. And that’s why I asked my original question, which was, you know, where do you guys think the money is going to come from, or what region do you see your money flooding into? And I wonder if it has a lot more to do with bias, right? Because there’s this amazing sparkling wine being made in New Mexico. And yet all the brands aren’t flooding in to be like, “We should be doing that, too. Look at what they’re doing.” This is a quality of wine that we can’t believe they’re being able to produce. And at this price point. Whereas when someone says, you know, Italy and Etna and everyone is like, “Oh yeah, of course Italy! Yeah. Dump the money in.” Or all of a sudden it’s like that bias of well, of course, it’s the Old World. And so they’ve always been making wine. So yeah, we all forgot about this region, but it’s always been there and is it easier for some people to accept for whatever reason when honestly, if you can produce great wine in a region, like why does it matter how long that region has been producing wine? Especially because if you look at the Sicilian history of producing wine, for a very long time, it was very, very bad. So how did that change? And the only thing that I can think of is the bias, that European bias.

Z: And I think the other piece of this is one thing we haven’t talked about and I don’t mean to get into a long conversation about, but a part of the American wine experience also has to do with tourism and visiting wineries. And I do think that one of the reasons you’ve seen a bias towards certain parts of the country is because those are places that are convenient for tourists, that are otherwise accessible, that are beautiful. And it may be the case that the beauty of the high desert in New Mexico, I think is actually very striking, but it’s not as much of an obvious tourist destination as Napa Valley. It also doesn’t have the density of other stuff to do. So I’m not saying there’s some reason, there’s a bad reason for that. And I think sometimes it’s hard to disentangle in the U.S. the difference between regions that are great wine destinations and great wine-producing regions. And those two things can be synonymous, but they’re not always, and some of the places that I’m excited about as regions that could produce great wine may never be places that are high on anyone’s travel list.

And that is also true in Europe, to be fair. I mean, I love the wines from Emilia-Romagna and I love the food from Emilia-Romagna in Italy, but it is not a pretty place. It’s basically flat and full of pig s***. And so, not every winery, and not every wine region is going to be beautiful or easy to access. But I think what we should be asking of these regions, whether they’re new or old, is that they be focused on quality and on producing the best wine they can. And it’s our job as journalists, as drinkers, to find those wines, to talk about them when they do merit discussion and to mention if it’s a great tourist destination or not, but you know, we’re all finding obviously in this year without tourism that there are other things that matter.

K: Well, the thing is the Finger Lakes is not easy to get to. And the Niagara Escarpment is not the easiest thing. It’s seven hours from New York driving, but it has become one of the national focuses of one grape: Riesling. But I think we can do it. It’s just a matter of, like Adam said, the bias. We need people to focus on it. And that’s the thing. In Europe, Sicily was mostly known for bulk wine, but there was always a small producer making awesome shit in Sicily. There’s always somebody down in Victoria  making great wine and then one day is like, “Oh my gosh, I actually have people seeing me now.” It just takes a long time. And Gruet, it is unfortunate, but that was a very special thing where this guy from Champagne, the family comes over and sees potential there. And I wonder if they found the best spot for those, but nobody wants to compete with the amount of amazing wine they make there. Or Arizona, I mean, I had an amazing Malvasia from Arizona, and the AVAs in Arizona are not too far away from the large cities. So I think it just takes time, and we are a young nation. We’re only 240-something years old. We had 10 years of Prohibition. We weren’t really getting back into dry red wine and even white wine at all until the late 1960s. We’re still kind of figuring it out.

And I think that it makes sense that we would attach ourselves to “OK, well, Pinot Noir that’s Willamette. OK, I’m gonna do that.” “Cab that’s Napa. I’m gonna do that.” “Riesling, that’s Washington — well, now it’s New York. OK.” And we needed that. That’s kind of how the point system came across as these are things that America needed at a time when we were just trying to re-understand what we lost for 10 years. And I think that it’s just a matter of time before we really get a sense of this, but there’s an excitement that has to happen to make it happen when Virginia has been making wine for a long time. Jim Law has been there since like what, 1978? And Adam, you and I got to know Jim Law, like what, six years ago?

A: Eight years ago. I mean, before I started VinePair. Yeah I mean like eight or nine years ago, I think you’re the one who introduced me to him or somehow we found him together. And he’s highly respected, but then again he doesn’t care about being known outside of Virginia.

K: Right, but he mentored a bunch of people who do care. And you know, of course Barboursville helped, too. That’s I guess one of those investments where Barboursville was like, “OK. We see there was a family. We see what’s going on. We see we want to invest in that area.” I just think it’s going to take some time, but what’s cool about it is it’s very exciting. It’s very exciting. I think that in the future, we’re going to have more wine coming from the United States that is going to be more diverse and more fun to explore. I mean like, I’m going to go back to Paso real quick, Adam, if you’re cool with that.

A: No, please go back to Paso.

K: Paso is in this little plain area, and it used to be a place where the whole story is, outlaws could go into Paso and not be bothered ’cause it’s in this little patch of nothing. And actually, it was founded by two dudes and Jesse James’ uncle, actually. And it is this place that has always been sort of disconnected from everybody else. And when it became known to the rest of the United States, it was known mostly for Cabernet Sauvignon and Zinfandel. But when I went to Paso, I drank, there’s a grape called Clairette that is a blending varietal from France. I drank a Clairette that was 15 months on the lees, like a Muscadet. And it was absolutely delicious. I had a Picpoul de Pinet, which is another native grape from the southern part of France. I had a Falanghina that was absolutely stunning. And it was made in skin fermenting as an orange wine. My mind was blown. So I had to go there to actually enjoy it. And I’m hoping that at some point we can actually figure out, like you said, Zach, figure out this tourism thing. That’s who we are as a country. Tourism is what we do. And I hope we can figure it out because there’s so much to be had in these small little pockets of America and these little AVAs. I mean, I know Paso is huge, but I’m telling you like other places that might have stunning, amazing wine, like Malvasia from Arizona, but it’s just not on the market.

A: No, I think Zach’s point about tourism is really important, ‘cause I do think that’s what’s helped a lot of the regions, and I think that that’s what then causes your mind to be blown because you show up there and you have a great meal and every wine region needs one good restaurant, you know what I mean? Just something to tie it together, because I remember when I first went to Paso, driving down the coast, and like no winery really had a place to tell us to go to for lunch. This was eight or nine years ago. And there just wasn’t really an answer. So we wound up going to what was an OK cafe and, I was like, “Oh man, there’s such potential here.” Once they get that high-end restaurant, or once they get that place where it all goes together, because that is what Napa and Sonoma have going for them. That is what other regions have going for them, is just this ability to give you that one 360-degree experience.

K: And now Paso finally has it.

A: Exactly. And so, I think that matters, as annoying as that is. It does. But there’s just so much stuff, I mean, just talking we could talk for another 45 minutes about it, so much stuff about American wine is really exciting right now. And the best thing is to just get out there and try to drink it. And if you can’t get out there now because of the pandemic, totally understandable. So get online and just read as you were saying, Keith. Yeah. And hit up DTC, read our reviews. We try to write about a lot of different wine regions. If you’re an American wine region that we don’t write about, get in touch with us. We want to taste your wine, send it to us. Send it to Zach too, ’cause you know, he’s in Seattle. But yeah, I mean, we want to taste your wine. I mean, I think we have no bias here, and I think that’s the thing that’s most important for anyone thinking about getting into these other regions is, don’t go in with bias, because I’m promising you, there’s someone in these regions who is producing really, really great juice.

K: I’m getting a Müller-Thurgau from Oregon coming in tomorrow.

Z: There you go.

A: Crazy. Well, guys, this has been an awesome conversation. Keith, thanks for being our guest co-host this week. Zach, I’ll see you right back here next week.

Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair podcast. If you enjoy listening to us every week, please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show. Now for the credits, VinePair produced by myself and Zach. It is also mixed and edited by him. Yeah, Zach, we know you do a lot. I’d also like to thank the entire VinePair team, including my co-founder, Josh and our associate editor, Cat. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity.

The article VinePair Podcast: American Wine Has Boundless Potential appeared first on VinePair.

source https://vinepair.com/articles/american-wine-podcast/

[johnboothus]

VinePair Podcast: American Wine Has Boundless Potential

American wine has never been in a better place. Wine is now being made in all 50 states, and the map of exceptional wine regions has expanded well beyond California. From Virginia to Michigan, New Mexico to New York, Texas to Idaho, American grape growers and winemakers are finding exciting new sites for viticulture and, in many cases, unfamiliar varieties that are greatly expanding the boundaries and potential for domestic wine.

On this week’s VinePair Podcast, Adam Teeter and Zach Geballe are joined by VinePair tastings director Keith Beavers to give an overview of the current landscape of the American wine industry in conjunction with VinePair’s American Wine Month. They discuss the emerging wine regions in Paso Robles, the Columbia Gorge, and the Great Lakes, and ponder what America’s love of wine tourism will mean for these regions and others moving forward.

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Adam: From the Ritz Cracker display at Publix, I’m Adam Teeter. You don’t get it? But no, really from Brooklyn, New York, I’m Adam Teeter

Keith: From Brick City, I’m Keith Beavers

Zach: And in Seattle, Washington, very confused, I’m Zach Geballe.

A: And this is the VinePair Podcast. Zach, how are you confused? They had a press conference last weekend where Rudy Giuliani came live from the Four Seasons Total Landscaping instead of the Four Seasons Hotel.

Z: I guess…

A: So I’m coming live from the Ritz Cracker display instead of the Ritz Carlton.

Z: I got you. I feel like we’re like a week and a half late on this joke, though.

A: No, I think it’s good. I still think it’s hilarious. We’ll have to wait to see what it sounds like to the listeners, but anyways guys, so this podcast is all about American Wine Month. The month at VinePair, we’re devoting to all things U.S- made wine. I really want to thank our sponsors Virginia Wine, CakeBread Cellars, Domaine Carneros, and 3 Girls.

And I’m excited to talk to both of you about wine. Keith is our guest host, VinePair’s tasting director, for this week. But before we jump into that, we’ve been doing a pretty fun segment at the top of the show every week now about what everyone’s been drinking recently. I’m assuming you guys have been drinking some dope shit as of what happened last week. So Keith, what about you first?

K: Well, some dope shit is correct, Adam. Well, you know, American Wine Month at VinePair, I’ve been deep, deep, deep into American wine. And I’m really excited. I love Virginia wine, and I’ve been tasting some seriously great Virginia wine, and a lot has been sent to us. And it was kind of great. On Saturday, after the big announcement, I sat and drank a bottle of Jefferson Cabernet Franc from the area in which Thomas Jefferson allocated vineyard space, south of Monticello, to actually try to make America a wine-growing nation. And somebody came and they bought the property and they’re doing great things, and it’s just an amazing, beautiful Cabernet Franc so it kind of made sense. And I listened to the Jimmy Hendrix “Star-Spangled Banner” while I was drinking it.

A: Sweet. Zach, what about you, man?

Z: Well, I’ve also been on the American wine train, as I often am. And I think for me this past week, it was a lot of Willamette Valley Chardonnay. So Pinot Noir in the Willamette gets a lot of press, obviously. It’s by far what’s most widely grown and made there, but I’ve been really excited about Chardonnay from the Willamette and in particular a bottle from a producer called Cooper Mountain. Their old-vines Chardonnay, which I think date back to the late ’70s, some of the oldest Chardonnay plantings in the Willamette that are still in use and it was f****** delicious. So, I didn’t pair it with any music, Keith, I’m sorry. Well, pretty much all that gets played in my house these days are the songs my 2-year-old is obsessed with. So unless you really want to know how well Willamette Valley Chardonnay pairs with songs about bucket trucks and skid-steers, that’s another podcast.

A: Please, tell us more. So for me, that Saturday was a day I busted out the top stuff. And I’d had this bottle of Champagne in my house for a while and we just said, f*** it. So I opened a bottle of 2006 Pierre Jouët Belle Epoque Blanc de Blanc and it was awesome. ‘Cause I went out into the park in Fort Greene. Spike Lee was DJing, which was amazing. There was like a crazy amount of energy. And we just sat in the park myself, my wife Naomi, and Josh, who co-founded VinePair with me.

And we just drank the wine and it was really fun to watch everyone. And then people were sharing, you know, glasses and passing stuff back and forth. We had other things, too, but that was like the bottle that we popped first. You know, and it was just, you know, really memorable. And we actually, like, we brought coupes out with us.

It’s like whatever, let’s go full agro here. Just bring the glassware. And it was awesome. I mean, it was just a lot of fun, so that was, that was the most memorable thing I drank last week. Although I will say there was one other amazing experience I had, which was earlier in the day, actually that morning before everything got called, and this is why I was with Josh because I live in Brooklyn and Josh lives in Manhattan, so we don’t normally just find ourselves together when a random event like this occurs and everyone just decides to run out to somewhere and start drinking. But we had a meeting in the morning with Brian, this amazing entrepreneur who founded the sake distillery in Brooklyn called Brooklyn Kura, which now has pretty quickly over the past few years become known as the best Sake distillery outside of Japan. Sorry, sake brewery, and I’d never been to a sake brewery before, actually.

And first of all, the sakes were really delicious, but again, what do I know? I think they were very delicious. I enjoyed them, but I very easily admit that I don’t know a lot about sake, but these pleased my palate. And it was really cool to watch the process until I go back in the back with him and sort of understand how they’re actually making sake. Have either of you ever been to a sake brewery before?

K: No.

Z: I have, yeah, there’s one down in Oregon that I’ve been to.

A: It’s so interesting to watch what they’re doing. I didn’t realize how many people now are making more artisanal styles. Like, growing more artisanal-style rices in certain parts of the country. There’s a lot of really cool rice coming out of Arkansas, which I never would have thought of, and it was cool to watch. They don’t have the machine there that actually refines the rice. They’re actually able to still take advantage of the fact that there’s a lot of commercial sake distilleries in California. He was explaining all this stuff that we’re used to as Americans that sort of turned us off of sake, like the really warm sake bomb-type stuff.

None of that’s made in Japan. That’s all being made by Japanese companies, but in California, which I also didn’t know. But they have all these facilities where they can refine the rice. So they sell them to other people. But then there’s this one guy who he said is a little nuts, out of Chicago or maybe Indiana who’s started to set up his own sake place as well. And he went and bought his own refining machine. So he’ll take some of the more artisanal stuff and then sell them back to people like Brooklyn Kura.

K: This is insane.

A: It’s crazy. But then they soak the rice forever in water which I didn’t realize. And then the thing I didn’t realize is then they cook the rice and then they let a mold grow on it, and it’s actually the mold that creates the sugars that allows the fermentation.

Z: It’s really cool, too, because it’s like this weird kind of simultaneous fermentation. Well, not really two fermentations, but the Koji is producing the sugar out of the starch of the rice at the same time as yeasts are fermenting the sugar. So as you maybe saw some in-process as I have, it absolutely does not look like something you would want to ingest. It’s horrifying.

A: No, it doesn’t. Yeah. It’s literally like they’re just letting mold grow on rice and then when they go to brew it, it then comes out the way that it is, but he also had us taste some wild stuff. So first of all, another thing I didn’t realize was that sake doesn’t really age. He said that it can, but not in a way that you would think about with wine or things like that. Once it’s basically a cold temperature, it is what it is. He said there’s some funk, there’s some people doing some stuff in Japan where they are letting it sit for years and years. And it just changes. It just may not be the thing that everyone wants to drink. I kind of think it becomes a thing where like at the same time now people have a taste for Brett and stuff. It’s like, you get a taste for that kind of like weird funk that develops after the sake gets old. There’s definitely like a small population of sake drinkers that like that, but not a huge group. But that was super interesting to understand. And then they actually dry-hopped sake. And he poured it for us. And I literally thought that I was drinking liquid grapefruit juice. It was the craziest thing I’d ever tasted. And it was pink because it pulls out the colors from the hops, which is weird because hops are green, but for whatever reason, it ends up a pinkish-orange color, and they almost sell it as a rosé. And then of course they’re doing other stuff too. Like they’re making like a Pét-Nat sake. I was like, here we go.

Z: You really were in Brooklyn.

A: Yeah. I was in Brooklyn. I was in Industry City. But yeah, just shout out to them ‘cause they’re doing really cool stuff, and I thought it was delicious.

K: What was the alcohol on the dry-hopped?

A: It was like 12 percent or something like that. 12, 14. So, I mean it’ll hit you, but not in the way that other things will, it was very tasty.

I was very impressed and they’re of course trying to make sakes that they’re not encouraging you to then use as a spirits substitute for cocktails and stuff. Their whole goal is to have you drink the sake as it is. And also their big push, too, is to take it out of the American idea that you’re supposed to have it in those little short sake glasses. They obviously serve theirs in wine glasses and in smaller ones, more like what you would think of a white wine or something at a wedding. That’s kind of the way I think of what glass size they use. But he explained to me, too, where the small sake glass comes from, and it has nothing to do with aromas or anything like that. It’s that in Japanese culture, the more you’re serving the guests, the more pleasure it gives you. And so if it’s a smaller vessel, you have to serve your guests more often. And so that’s the only reason the sake glass is small, because we would constantly be refilling your person’s glass. And so that’s you showing yourself as being a very good host. But of course, Americans, as Brian joked, we see that glass and we’re like, “Sweet! It’s a shot.” We just throw it back. But yeah.

Z: This has been super interesting and I look forward to next year’s American sake month.

A: I know. Totally. But yeah, thanks Zach. You didn’t get the Ritz Cracker joke, now you’re just hating on my sake stuff.

Z: No, no I’m just saying let’s transition.

A: Well, yeah, let’s talk about American Wine Month. So I mean, all of us, we’re from different parts of the country. I mean I lived in the South for awhile. Then went to school in the South and moved up here. Zach you’re from the Northwest and then obviously went to school in New York. Keith’s from all over. Maryland, New York. So we’ve all sort of traveled a lot. And I think what’s really interesting about the United States is that first of all, as we know, there’s bonded wineries in all 50 States. As we noted, Zach, before we started the podcast, just being a bonded winery doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re making wine from vinifera, but they are making some sort of wine. But there’s really cool stuff happening all over the country. And I think what’s so exciting about it, is that it shows it’s not just about three or four of the regions that probably everyone knows. And there’s really amazing stuff coming from everywhere. And I guess my question to both of you guys to just start this is: Is there such a thing as American wine? What do you think American wine is? If someone said to you American wine, what would you immediately think of?

K: For me, I believe American wine is wine made from grapes that are not from here, by people that are not from here. We all came from somewhere else to be here, unless you’re an indigenous culture. And I think that American wine for me is defined by the ability to grow vines that are meant for the soils in which they’re grown in. And the wine is made in such a skillful way that it represents that area, whether it’s a Viognier, whether it’s Petit Manseng, whether it’s Cab Franc, whether it’s Grüner Veltliner, it doesn’t matter. In Texas they’re doing Tempranillo, and people dig it, but they’re also making fruit wine, you know? So I see American wine as this sort of Wild West mentality, but now finally with more information about science and technology, focusing more on the soil, more on where we grow grapes, why it’s good to grow them there. And then, making good wine. So that’s how I see it. And we’re not done yet. The Petaluma Gap in Sonoma was awarded in 2017. In Washington State, I just found out two weeks ago, two more AVAs were awarded in the Columbia Valley. So we’re still working on it, but I think that’s kind of what defines it to me.

Z: Yeah. And I think Keith you capture a really important piece here, which is what I often think about as well, which is this idea of — whether you want to use the Wild West metaphor — or to me, it’s just this idea that there was no existing wine culture in this country in terms of growing or consuming until quite recently. And some of what did exist was wiped out by Prohibition and it was slow to recover. And what’s been really exciting for me about American wine is that we are now at a place with the industry where it’s so much more developed and mature than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. So that not everyone has to feel like they have to make a wine that refers to Europe. I mean, yes, the varieties, the cultivars, the clones, and of course the species itself is European in nature, but we are not necessarily seeing wine regions in the United States feel too confined by established European styles by saying, “Oh, well in Bordeaux, they plant these X number of varieties, and so those are the only things we can plant here.” Obviously you still see a lot of that. I don’t mean that those wines have disappeared. Of course they’re still very popular and rightfully so, but you do see experimentation with all kinds of different varieties and people saying, “Well, why can’t I grow a Spanish variety and a French variety and an Austrian variety and a Croatian variety all in my vineyard? I think they’ll work here. I want to make wines that are of these various styles or from these varieties. And I can do that.” And that’s a freedom that just does not exist in most other places. Few other places in the new world have similar spirits, but here in the U.S. we have this almost endless amount of land that could be potentially converted to viticulture, should someone want to do it.

A: Yeah, I think that’s true. I think the other thing that makes American wine so interesting is that this country is just so big. Every state is almost its own country. So, what works in the Finger Lakes may not necessarily work in Texas. But that’s OK  because there’s other things that can work. And I think the thing that started to define American wine for me, which I really like, is that over the last decade, two decades even, there’s become less of a focus by a lot of the really top producers — and then everyone else has followed — of having to make a wine in America that tastes like a wine from the Old World. It’s like no, the Cabernet from Napa tastes like Cabernet from Napa. There’s less of that now. I remember even early on in my wine journey, I would go to the North Fork and the winemaker would say like, yeah, we’re really going for a Right Bank Bordeaux. And now you don’t hear that as much here. Why aren’t we saying no, this is a North Fork wine, right? This is what it is. And becoming more confident that, yes, we can take the grapes from Europe and the wines don’t have to be copies of the wines from Europe to be considered high quality and to be considered best in class and all of those things. They can be their own thing.

K: And what’s cool about that is the fact that what we did was, in trying to emulate European wine, we created our own styles. Which is really kind of cool. I mean, I know the meritage thing never really took where, you know, in California there was this word called meritage. And if you had a meritage if you used all the Bordeaux varieties and stuff, but we ended up making our own stuff and created our own style, which is really awesome.

A: Totally.

Z: Yeah. And I think actually to the point that you were making, Adam, as well, I think even more excitingly now, not only do you not hear wineries, and wine producers, wine regions say, “Oh yes, our wines are comparable to the wines of ‘pick your French region of choice.'” But even something like Napa, which is obviously an American wine region, I don’t even hear as many wineries, say, “Oh, we’re making a Cabernet like a Napa Cab.” There is a real understanding that what makes a lot of these parts of the country that are growing grapes and making wine so exciting is that they are their own thing. And yes, there’s going to always be some similarities. I mean, to some extent the character of each of these varieties or blends is going to show through, but it’s cool that whether you’re in Virginia, or Washington, or Oregon, or Texas, or Arizona, or any other place, I think the more that producers in those places can be comfortable saying, “We think we’re making a wine that’s really representative of this place and of these varieties of this place, of this vintage.” Those are the wines that I think all of us get excited about. And the wines that are harder to get excited about are someone who’s trying to make a replica of something that already exists. I mean, yeah. If you can make a wine that tastes like Château Margaux and it’s way cheaper, I guess that’s cool. But really the most exciting thing for me is to make a wine that is clearly and interestingly of the place it’s from. And this country has a lot of interesting, cool places. As you mentioned, Adam, it’s this incredibly vast country with incredibly different geology, climates. All these things that make for incredibly remarkable wine regions. And we’re just still scratching the surface. I mean, Keith, you mentioned how there’s new AVAs being awarded all over. And I mean, I was excited to see that Hawaii has now petitioned for its first AVA. The only wine I’ve ever tried from Hawaii is a pineapple wine, which was actually kind of good. But this is vinifera to be clear. But I think that’s super exciting and like, we don’t know. There’s all kinds of possibilities still out there. And the cool thing about wine is that it rewards exploration and experimentation and taking a chance. Of course, not all of them will work out, but there’s always that possibility.

A: My question to you guys is, over the last decade, we’ve seen new regions in Europe that have always existed, but have popped really big in the U.S. and more money has flooded in. So I’m thinking about, for example, like the Jura right? All of a sudden, a bunch of somms are talking about it and it was everywhere. Sicily, specifically Etna. And then all of a sudden, now you have Burgundy producers buying land there. You have Barbaresco and Barolo producers buying land there. What do you guys think? If there was a region that you think was going to pop next in the U.S. and you think, “Oh my God, this is the region that’s going to pop. And every single person is going to realize how great it is, and there’s gonna be money flooding in there.” Is there one or could you think of one?

K: Yeah. I mean, what’s cool about Washington State is it seems to be a really big — what is it, the second largest wine-producing region in the country? And there’s been some very significant investments there starting from back in the day. And I think we’re already seeing investment in Virginia. So to think of a brand new space —

A: No. I’m not saying brand new because you look and Etna existed forever, right? It just, all of a sudden, who knows what it was? It was someone saying like, “Oh my gosh, these are like Burgundy. And all of a sudden, everyone just started dumping money. Right? And it became the thing people were talking about. I’m just wondering, what are a few regions in the U.S. we think that there could be or, maybe there isn’t yet. Maybe there is, I agree with you that the thing I think is most ripe for it is Washington. And that’s honestly just because for whatever reason, Zach might think I’m kissing his a** right now. But for whatever reason, like that stage has flown under the radar for a really long time for no explainable reason.

Z: Allow me to explain why.

A: Please, because the explanation I’ve always heard is that Oregon just got there first or whatever, and people start talking about the Pinot Noirs, and people just forgot that Washington was there, but I’m sure there’s a better explanation than that.

Z: Well, I think that the biggest thing that’s changed about the wine industry in my time in it, and the way that consumers tend to think, is one of the things that worked against Washington for a long time was that it had no clear cut variety or style of wine that was the signature. And there’s certainly plenty of famous and highly priced Washington Cabernets and Cabernet-based blends. Pre-“Sideways,” there was a lot of emphasis on Merlot and I think Washington Merlot is actually really an exciting wine, for sure. But the strength of Washington is almost like the strength of the U.S. in a microcosm. It’s the diversity and it’s all the different things that can be made. And we’ve only, I think just in the last few years reached a place where in the American wine market, there’s actual interest in a lot of different kinds of wines, a lot of different varieties, a lot of different styles.

And so there are still the diehard “I only drink Pinot Noir. I only drink Cabernet. I only drink Chardonnay” folks, but most wine people that I meet these days or talk to, they’re interested in trying something new. And that’s where I think Washington has an incredible possibility, which is to say, “Hey, we are growing over a hundred different varieties.” There are people focusing on all kinds of different things in this state. There are wineries that focus exclusively on Spanish varieties. There are wineries that focus exclusively on white wines from the Rhône Valley and south of France. There are wineries that do just about everything in their own way in various different sizes. And the thing, to come to your question about a region, Adam, I actually think that one of the most exciting places in the country and a place that I think the same kind of people who got excited about the Jura are, or will be excited about, is the Columbia Gorge. And the biggest reason for that is that it is such an incredibly unusual appellation and growing region for Washington. So it’s on the border between Washington and Oregon. And unlike the vast majority of Washington, it’s actually relatively cool and a little bit more wet. So it isn’t as much of a sort of high desert environment like much of Eastern Washington. It’s much more like the Loire Valley in France in terms of its climate, but with a very different geology and a lot more elevation. And so you’re seeing people make amazing whites from both well-known varieties like Chardonnay, but also Grüner Veltliner. People are doing interesting things with Tocai Friulano and then you’re also seeing a lot of interesting cool- climate style reds, which has not been a big thing in Washington State for sure. But there’s interesting Pinot Noir there. There’s amazing Gamay, you’re seeing people do fun things with Cabernet Franc. And, and as you move to the eastern edge of the Columbia Gorge, you do get a little bit more of what we associate with the rest of Washington. So a little bit hotter, but you still have that real river influence. So it is its own area. And what’s cool is you have all the other things that I think draws people to places like the Jura is the producers are all pretty small. There’s no big wineries. So the wines are niche there, and they’re small production. And unfortunately it makes it hard to find some of those wines around the country, for sure. But for people who are interested in exploring, it’s an area where there’s a lot of interesting small- to medium-sized wineries who are doing fun things. And that’s definitely one area, again, because of my proximity is part, that I think is ripe for more discovery around the country.

K: Well, I think based on your question, Adam, this is I mean what it sounds like to me is the United States, we’re still working on it. You know, we have a lot of work to do because in 1980, the first AVA was awarded to Augusta, Mo.  And then eight months later in 1981, the first AVA in California was awarded to Napa Valley. And since then, we’ve had 224 AVAs across the country. And for a long time, like I said earlier, people were forcing vines into soils that didn’t really work so much. But I think it’s not really about what the next exciting region is. I think it’s more about how we, as an American wine drinking culture, approach the places that exist. Maybe for example, Temecula has awesome wine. No one knows Temecula. Paso Robles.

A: I was waiting for it.

K: There it is. I am in love with that AVA. I think it’s an absolute phenomenon that it kind of flies under the radar because there’s a few brand names that are jiving on the American market that you can find in supermarkets in wine shops. But there’s also stuff that you can’t really get outside of Paso. Just like there’s things you can’t get out of Temecula, and things you can’t get out of Columbia Gorge. So I think that one of the things — and again, we’re in a pandemic and it’s different, but that’s not gonna last forever.

I guess what I’m saying is, we get to go to these places and see what these skilled winemakers are making. And I think the next thing with American drinking culture is to explore the diversity of the wines in the area. Let’s get people into Long Island Grüner Veltliner. And the thing is if you can’t get it, well the DTC, the direct-to-customer thing, is getting a little bit better. I think that celebrating what’s fun, and that in doing so we can actually educate the American wine consumer on more varieties, different kinds of cultivars and stuff. Like what’s Grüner Veltliner? Well, it’s this Austrian variety and it’s really awesome in Long Island, you know? So I think that’s where we should go next.

A: Yeah, I think, what’s difficult for people and I would say, you know, the best advice I could give about American wine is, don’t be scared to take a risk. And don’t turn your nose up just because you hear of a state and you’ve never heard that it makes wine before. Because I guarantee you there’s someone in that state making really great wine. Like when I’ve heard people be like, “Oh, Connecticut, they make wine? That can’t be good. Or New Jersey, New Jersey makes wine?” I mean I literally have not, which is a shame, ’cause I’m so close to New Jersey, there’s apparently a lot of amazing wineries in South Jersey. Yeah. You’re in New Jersey in Brick City, or Pennsylvania in Lancaster County, where my wife is from. She’s from Lancaster the city, but in the county, there’s an Amish guy that ripped up his farm and planted vineyards. And honestly, he makes a Merlot that’s amazing.

Z: I think the other area to think about and I’m super excited about, Adam — I think you and I like jokingly mentioned this way back in one of our very first podcasts – but it was like a lot of the states around the Great Lakes area where I think there’s really interesting potential, whether it’s in Michigan or potentially even in Wisconsin. As things start to change climatically, and as places get a little bit warmer potentially and drier during the summer, I think one thing that America doesn’t have a lot of are classic wine regions that are near large bodies of water that are not oceans. And when you compare that to Europe, the Finger Lakes are the one exception and we think the Finger Lakes are super exciting in part because of the possibility that that kind of viticulture provides. And I think you could see some really interesting wine coming out of those States in the next 10 to 20 years. I know one of the challenges for a lot of those areas is that traditionally they get so cold over the winter that there’s only a few varieties you can really plant that are cold-hardy. But, I think you’ve seen more and more development in understanding rootstocks and, and ways to shelter vines. That’s an area that I have my eye on. I think I’ve tried a couple of Rieslings from Michigan. That’s the extent of what I’ve tried from the Great Lakes, but, I’m really excited to see if there’s more investment and interest in putting some time into those.

K: Left Foot Charley and his no-residual, no-RS, no-residual-sugar Riesling from just North of Traverse city is just incredible. And what’s awesome is his winery is located in an old asylum. They took this asylum up in Michigan and then it closed down and they were repurposing it. It’s really intense.

A: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot of opportunities, right? I mean, we’ve talked about Virginia a bunch. Obviously they sponsored American wine month, but we’ve been hot on Virginia for a long time. I think there’s a potential for it to be one of the great wine regions of the country. And especially on the East Coast, there’s a lot of stuff happening there that’s really exciting. And especially as the vintners are getting more up into the mountains, into the actual Shenandoah Mountains, they’re finding the cooler temperatures. They just have to deal with more stuff, and that’s the thing that’s going to be difficult, right? As some of these wine regions expand, how much are we going to be willing to also be OK with some of the things they need to do to be able to make good wine?

So, you know, in Virginia, they have to deal with a lot. And there’s a lot of humidity and stuff like that. And so being 100 percent organic is almost impossible, whereas it’s very easy in Napa. So is “sustainable” going to be enough? Right? Are we gonna be OK if they spray once or twice a year? ‘Cause they have to. I don’t know what it’s like in Texas. I just know Texas is super hot, but maybe it’s a dry heat. I don’t remember where it becomes a dry heat. So there’s gonna be things they have to do. There’s gonna be things that they have to do if we want to be able to have some of these different wine regions succeed. I think it’s crazy that we haven’t seen more. You look at certain regions like New Mexico, right? And the success of Gruet, and how amazing those sparkling wines are. And the fact that we haven’t had others yet, or I’m sure there are, but just other people haven’t followed in a really dramatic way. It surprises me to be honest. And that’s why I asked my original question, which was, you know, where do you guys think the money is going to come from, or what region do you see your money flooding into? And I wonder if it has a lot more to do with bias, right? Because there’s this amazing sparkling wine being made in New Mexico. And yet all the brands aren’t flooding in to be like, “We should be doing that, too. Look at what they’re doing.” This is a quality of wine that we can’t believe they’re being able to produce. And at this price point. Whereas when someone says, you know, Italy and Etna and everyone is like, “Oh yeah, of course Italy! Yeah. Dump the money in.” Or all of a sudden it’s like that bias of well, of course, it’s the Old World. And so they’ve always been making wine. So yeah, we all forgot about this region, but it’s always been there and is it easier for some people to accept for whatever reason when honestly, if you can produce great wine in a region, like why does it matter how long that region has been producing wine? Especially because if you look at the Sicilian history of producing wine, for a very long time, it was very, very bad. So how did that change? And the only thing that I can think of is the bias, that European bias.

Z: And I think the other piece of this is one thing we haven’t talked about and I don’t mean to get into a long conversation about, but a part of the American wine experience also has to do with tourism and visiting wineries. And I do think that one of the reasons you’ve seen a bias towards certain parts of the country is because those are places that are convenient for tourists, that are otherwise accessible, that are beautiful. And it may be the case that the beauty of the high desert in New Mexico, I think is actually very striking, but it’s not as much of an obvious tourist destination as Napa Valley. It also doesn’t have the density of other stuff to do. So I’m not saying there’s some reason, there’s a bad reason for that. And I think sometimes it’s hard to disentangle in the U.S. the difference between regions that are great wine destinations and great wine-producing regions. And those two things can be synonymous, but they’re not always, and some of the places that I’m excited about as regions that could produce great wine may never be places that are high on anyone’s travel list.

And that is also true in Europe, to be fair. I mean, I love the wines from Emilia-Romagna and I love the food from Emilia-Romagna in Italy, but it is not a pretty place. It’s basically flat and full of pig s***. And so, not every winery, and not every wine region is going to be beautiful or easy to access. But I think what we should be asking of these regions, whether they’re new or old, is that they be focused on quality and on producing the best wine they can. And it’s our job as journalists, as drinkers, to find those wines, to talk about them when they do merit discussion and to mention if it’s a great tourist destination or not, but you know, we’re all finding obviously in this year without tourism that there are other things that matter.

K: Well, the thing is the Finger Lakes is not easy to get to. And the Niagara Escarpment is not the easiest thing. It’s seven hours from New York driving, but it has become one of the national focuses of one grape: Riesling. But I think we can do it. It’s just a matter of, like Adam said, the bias. We need people to focus on it. And that’s the thing. In Europe, Sicily was mostly known for bulk wine, but there was always a small producer making awesome shit in Sicily. There’s always somebody down in Victoria  making great wine and then one day is like, “Oh my gosh, I actually have people seeing me now.” It just takes a long time. And Gruet, it is unfortunate, but that was a very special thing where this guy from Champagne, the family comes over and sees potential there. And I wonder if they found the best spot for those, but nobody wants to compete with the amount of amazing wine they make there. Or Arizona, I mean, I had an amazing Malvasia from Arizona, and the AVAs in Arizona are not too far away from the large cities. So I think it just takes time, and we are a young nation. We’re only 240-something years old. We had 10 years of Prohibition. We weren’t really getting back into dry red wine and even white wine at all until the late 1960s. We’re still kind of figuring it out.

And I think that it makes sense that we would attach ourselves to “OK, well, Pinot Noir that’s Willamette. OK, I’m gonna do that.” “Cab that’s Napa. I’m gonna do that.” “Riesling, that’s Washington — well, now it’s New York. OK.” And we needed that. That’s kind of how the point system came across as these are things that America needed at a time when we were just trying to re-understand what we lost for 10 years. And I think that it’s just a matter of time before we really get a sense of this, but there’s an excitement that has to happen to make it happen when Virginia has been making wine for a long time. Jim Law has been there since like what, 1978? And Adam, you and I got to know Jim Law, like what, six years ago?

A: Eight years ago. I mean, before I started VinePair. Yeah I mean like eight or nine years ago, I think you’re the one who introduced me to him or somehow we found him together. And he’s highly respected, but then again he doesn’t care about being known outside of Virginia.

K: Right, but he mentored a bunch of people who do care. And you know, of course Barboursville helped, too. That’s I guess one of those investments where Barboursville was like, “OK. We see there was a family. We see what’s going on. We see we want to invest in that area.” I just think it’s going to take some time, but what’s cool about it is it’s very exciting. It’s very exciting. I think that in the future, we’re going to have more wine coming from the United States that is going to be more diverse and more fun to explore. I mean like, I’m going to go back to Paso real quick, Adam, if you’re cool with that.

A: No, please go back to Paso.

K: Paso is in this little plain area, and it used to be a place where the whole story is, outlaws could go into Paso and not be bothered ’cause it’s in this little patch of nothing. And actually, it was founded by two dudes and Jesse James’ uncle, actually. And it is this place that has always been sort of disconnected from everybody else. And when it became known to the rest of the United States, it was known mostly for Cabernet Sauvignon and Zinfandel. But when I went to Paso, I drank, there’s a grape called Clairette that is a blending varietal from France. I drank a Clairette that was 15 months on the lees, like a Muscadet. And it was absolutely delicious. I had a Picpoul de Pinet, which is another native grape from the southern part of France. I had a Falanghina that was absolutely stunning. And it was made in skin fermenting as an orange wine. My mind was blown. So I had to go there to actually enjoy it. And I’m hoping that at some point we can actually figure out, like you said, Zach, figure out this tourism thing. That’s who we are as a country. Tourism is what we do. And I hope we can figure it out because there’s so much to be had in these small little pockets of America and these little AVAs. I mean, I know Paso is huge, but I’m telling you like other places that might have stunning, amazing wine, like Malvasia from Arizona, but it’s just not on the market.

A: No, I think Zach’s point about tourism is really important, ‘cause I do think that’s what’s helped a lot of the regions, and I think that that’s what then causes your mind to be blown because you show up there and you have a great meal and every wine region needs one good restaurant, you know what I mean? Just something to tie it together, because I remember when I first went to Paso, driving down the coast, and like no winery really had a place to tell us to go to for lunch. This was eight or nine years ago. And there just wasn’t really an answer. So we wound up going to what was an OK cafe and, I was like, “Oh man, there’s such potential here.” Once they get that high-end restaurant, or once they get that place where it all goes together, because that is what Napa and Sonoma have going for them. That is what other regions have going for them, is just this ability to give you that one 360-degree experience.

K: And now Paso finally has it.

A: Exactly. And so, I think that matters, as annoying as that is. It does. But there’s just so much stuff, I mean, just talking we could talk for another 45 minutes about it, so much stuff about American wine is really exciting right now. And the best thing is to just get out there and try to drink it. And if you can’t get out there now because of the pandemic, totally understandable. So get online and just read as you were saying, Keith. Yeah. And hit up DTC, read our reviews. We try to write about a lot of different wine regions. If you’re an American wine region that we don’t write about, get in touch with us. We want to taste your wine, send it to us. Send it to Zach too, ’cause you know, he’s in Seattle. But yeah, I mean, we want to taste your wine. I mean, I think we have no bias here, and I think that’s the thing that’s most important for anyone thinking about getting into these other regions is, don’t go in with bias, because I’m promising you, there’s someone in these regions who is producing really, really great juice.

K: I’m getting a Müller-Thurgau from Oregon coming in tomorrow.

Z: There you go.

A: Crazy. Well, guys, this has been an awesome conversation. Keith, thanks for being our guest co-host this week. Zach, I’ll see you right back here next week.

Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair podcast. If you enjoy listening to us every week, please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show. Now for the credits, VinePair produced by myself and Zach. It is also mixed and edited by him. Yeah, Zach, we know you do a lot. I’d also like to thank the entire VinePair team, including my co-founder, Josh and our associate editor, Cat. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity.

The article VinePair Podcast: American Wine Has Boundless Potential appeared first on VinePair.

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source https://vinology1.weebly.com/blog/vinepair-podcast-american-wine-has-boundless-potential

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Gary Boomershine and The CoronaVirus Crisis

https://www.jayconner.com/gary-boomershine-and-the-coronavirus-crisis/

Gary Boomershine founded RealEstateInvestor.com in 2005 out of the need to scale and grow his own real estate investing and home buying business. With a family legacy in the real estate niche, and a long successful career in enterprise and emerging technology markets, Gary saw the vision for RealEstateInvestor.com.

He noticed the glaring opportunity to leverage people, processes and technology to gain a leg up in a changing and competitive marketplace. As he worked to develop and use the initial product and service, he saw his real estate business flourish by allowing him to work smarter - not harder and focusing on the one thing that makes money - talking to sellers and making offers.

That’s when RealEstateInvestor.com began offering its flagship product, REIvault, to the savvy investor market.

According to Gary, “Most small real estate enterprises limit their growth and many times fail because they lack real marketing and sales expertise along with the infrastructure to scale their business. Instead of being able to focus on closing deals and maximizing profits, they hit a wall trying to build and do everything themselves; and they simply can’t do it!”

REIvault caters to top producing agents, investors and smaller hedge funds who are looking for a competitive advantage in their local markets. Under the leadership of Gary Boomershine, this service has launched a “technology revolution” within the real estate niche; offering an alternative to the MLS by bringing pre-screened motivated sellers and buyers face to face at the right time.

Gary currently resides in Northern California with his wife and two daughters where he continues to manage a global team for RealEstateInvestor.com. He is actively involved in real estate investing and private lending. In his free time, he enjoys fly fishing, skiing, hiking, mountain biking and traveling with family.

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Jay Conner (00:12): Hey, here we are, Scott Paton. I believe we are live today.

Scott Paton (00:16): We are you live!

Jay Conner (00:17): Alright, well let me know when we have some live human beings starting to show up here with us.

Scott Paton (00:25): Three people already! Jay we're popular.

Jay Conner (00:28): How do they do that?

Scott Paton (00:29): I don't know. How did you find this everybody? Give us something in the comments.

Jay Conner (00:37): It's like we've been live for like 8 seconds and people are here. Maybe people are like waiting. I don't know. So everybody say hello. So obviously we know your name when you comment, but type in your city and state as to where you are tuning in from. We've got a fantastic guest today. Some of you may have heard from him before. Gary Boomershine is in the green room right now waiting for us to bring him back or bring him back out here. But we're going to be focusing today when we officially launched this show here in just a couple of minutes, we're going to be focusing in on obviously Corona virus, how things are different, what's different, how you need to be different.

Jay Conner (01:27): And Gary's going to be talking to us today about what he's doing different in his business, what his team is doing different. So as y'all are coming in to the live stream right now in the comments section right now below, doesn't matter if you're on Facebook or you're on YouTube, everybody say hello and where you are coming in from. And there you are. There's Paul from South Dakota. It says email and waiting. There we go. Scott. They saw the email and here is Stephen from Nashville, Tennessee. The first two year on YouTube we got Harold all the way from New York on my lands. Harold. So Harold there in from Facebook Harold in the comments section, let us know how things are with corona virus up there where you are in New York. I'm interested to know. So again, as you all are coming in either from YouTube or you are coming in from Facebook, everybody say hello and you're city and state that you're coming in.

Jay Conner (02:34): We're going to bring Gary Boomershine out here in just a second and talk about how things are different and how we can actually embrace this corona virus thing that's going on and how we can serve a lot of people and profit from it greatly as well. So we haven't officially started for those of y'all that have started, I'm going to give you a little sneak peek now. And that is, I am going to be putting on three free events and y'all should write this down. Three free events May 15th, 22nd and 29th. Those are Fridays. All three Fridays. I'm going to be teaching all day long. They're going to be absolutely free and you can go over right now to get free tickets for those three free fridays at JayConner.com/Fortune and get registered on that site. Hey Scott, did we get that fixed? We had one participant last hour that said that they could only register for the first Friday or were they confused?

Scott Paton (03:47): They were confused. Once you sign up, like we're making this as we're talking and so we don't have yet a sort of a thank you email that's going to go out, but we'll get that done today. And so when you sign up, you'll get emails telling you where to go so you can watch each of the three days as we set them up.

Jay Conner (04:08): Excellent. So yeah, those three free days, in fact, Gary Boomershine is going to be a part of it, but on those three free days, the first Friday May 15th is going to be all day long on private money. How you can raise a lot, not even raise, I mean, how to get it without even asking for it. How to get a ton of private money here in the midst of corona virus and have that at your disposal to buy houses, to buy commercial properties. I've got more private money coming at me right now than I have in forever. I mean, look what's happened in the stock market. People, they don't want to be investing in the stock market. They got money sitting on the sidelines. So that's Friday, May 15th, then we got Friday, May 22nd. That's going to be all day long. How do I make a fortune in foreclosures, right here in the midst of Corona virus?

Jay Conner (05:05): How to be getting ready for that, how to learn, how to be able to purchase those foreclosures, serve a ton of people while getting high profits yourself. There's gonna be an avalanche of foreclosures when we come out on the other side of coronavirus. I want to position you to be ready for that. That's the second free Friday, May 22nd. And then the third free Friday, May 29th I'm actually going to be teaching a strategy called how to locate and get free private money. So that's gonna be a strategy I'll be teaching as to another way that you can own properties without even having to raise any private money to do that. So get right on over to JayConner.com/Fortune and get registered for those three free Fridays. We got hellos from Nathan in Texas. And yes, Harold says up there in New York says, well, my wife and kids have me on lock down.

Jay Conner (06:06): I bet so Harold. Just had two casualties here in Erie County. And...

Scott Paton (06:12): Sorry to hear that.

Jay Conner (06:13): Our thoughts and prayers are for sure out to the families on that. And Fuquan! Fuquan's been on my show here before, I love that! Fuquan says, free Fridays. I love it. You gotta keep going, get right on over there and get registered at JayConner.com/Fortune and y'all can take advantage of that. Okay. Again, if you've just come in and you've not said hello yet, it doesn't matter if you're on Facebook or on YouTube right now. In the comment bar below the video we want to hear from you, tell us hello, what city and state you're from. And of course we appreciate you subscribing, rating and reviewing as well. So Scott, let's kick this show off officially so I can bring Gary. Oh there's, Greg, Uhmer. Hello, Greg from Durham, North Carolina, one of my mastermind members. Hey Greg. You know Greg from being at my live events.

Scott Paton (07:13): Yeah. I was going to say, Paulina just joined us from Syracuse. Hi. Hey Paulina.

Jay Conner (07:23): Glad to have you, Paulina. Alright! I'm ready. Scott, let's go officially live on this show.

Scott Paton (07:29): All right!

Jay Conner (07:30): And I'm not gonna, I'm not going to do my shameless plug. I'm going to get right on and let it be all about Gary.

Scott Paton (07:37): Alright! I will disappear and put you in place and here we go.

Jay Conner (07:55): Well, hello and welcome to another episode of real estate investing with Jay Conner. I'm Jay Conner, your host, also known as "The Private Money Authority". And you may be tuning in now, live on YouTube or Facebook, or you could be listening to the official podcast show on iTunes or on Google play. No matter where you're turning in from or when. And we're glad you're here. If you're tuning in from iTunes, be sure to subscribe, rate and review. We love the five stars that you give us and your testimonials. We're hitting right on now, right quickly at 300,000 downloads and listens here on the real estate investing with Jay Conner and we're glad to have you back now if you're tuning in on YouTube or Facebook, we need your help. We need your questions and your comments for our special guests today. I'm so excited to have him out or have him back and I'm going to bring him out here in just a second.

Jay Conner (08:58): I'm excited to have Gary Boomershine back here on the show. I had him here on the show just a couple of weeks ago and you know, due to Corona virus going on and all the ramifications of that and how things are different. We like, I told Gary, I said we got to have you back on the show. You're just as soon as possible and thankfully he's agreed to come back. So for those of you who have not been introduced to Gary Boomershine, let me just tell you a little bit about him. At first of all, Gary's been around the block more than a year or two. He's got a knack, a big time knack for actually staying ahead of the curve, staying in front of the emerging real estate trends. That's why I wanted to have Gary back here on the show just as soon as possible.

Jay Conner (09:49): I mean, folks, have we got a new and emerging real estate trend going on right now? Absolutely! You know, with Corona virus going on right now, the way we're doing the real estate investing business has changed. We're doing a lot of things virtually that we weren't doing virtual before. And even more so of a longterm consequence when we come out on the other side of Corona virus, things are going to be different, right? So that's one thing I'm gonna want to drill down with Gary because he did. He's got a, he's been through more than one or two cycles. He knows what to be looking at in his crystal ball and he's going to be sharing that with us. Well, back in 2004 Gary actually started his real estate investing career. So he and I started right at the same time and very quickly he built a direct mail software that was called sales team live and today it's grown into a much bigger service that is an amazing service.

Jay Conner (11:00): That's called RealEstateInvestor.com. RealEstateInvestor.com. So this company that Gary founded and started with the vision and what a team has put together, they've sent out over well over 40 million pieces of direct mail. They've made more than 2 million outbound seller calls. And Gary and his company have now been named in the fastest growing companies according to inks, five hundreds lists. And that's three years in a row. Another thing I love about Gary is his heart. Gary is a servant by nature. He's a servant first and everything that he does, and we're going to talk right now with Gary about what's different and what we can be expecting on the horizon. With that, Gary Boomershine my friend, welcome to the show.

Gary Boomershine (11:55): It is an absolute pleasure. What a wonderful introduction. I actually am. I can tell you I'm getting a little goose pimples on. What a fantastic introduction that is. Thank you Jay. We go back, we've got a long history of you and me. It seems like we're always running into each other. We'll be at speaking events or you and I were in Tampa and it's like, Oh my gosh, bear hug to Jay Conner. Even though, even though we're on the opposite sides of the Island, I'm in California and you're on the other side of the country and you've got the area where we're at, the $2 million price tag and 200,000 I'd actually prefer not to be in California right now because buying real estate and about what, what's to happen right now is what we've been looking for. If you've been around the block for awhile.

Jay Conner (12:41): Yeah. So yeah, you're in California. So folks here, here's the perspective. So I'm here in Eastern North Carolina, this little teeny tiny town called Morehead city, North Carolina population 8,000 my entire target market is only 40,000 people, but we still do two to three deals a month. On average profit of $67,000 but here's the point I wanted to bring out based on what Gary just said. Our median price point is 225,000. What's your median price point in your market there where you live, Gary?

Gary Boomershine (13:15): Well, in where I'm at, it's probably 1.5 million and I would say the median in this sort of Val you know, California where we're living, San Francisco Bay area is closer to about 770. It's insane.

Jay Conner (13:29): Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, my medium price here is $225,000. I mean, folks, you can't even buy an outhouse in Gary's backyard for $225,000. And if you don't know what an outhouse is, well my granddaddy could tell you that's where he used to go get private time from my grandmother.

Gary Boomershine (13:51): Yeah. You know, what we just came out of was the end of the cycle, a typical real estate cycle. We can talk about that, but yeah, it's a seven year cycle. It's euphoric, which means everybody, you know, it's like that's the time you don't, you don't want to buy, you want to prepare. And there were, there was a tear down down the street from me, a literally a tear down of a house that sold for 1.35 million. 1.35 million and somebody paid cash.

Jay Conner (14:21): They paid 1.35 million and tore the house down. So they'd bought it for the dirt and now they're, they're building whatever.

Gary Boomershine (14:29): Yeah. Complete insanity.

Jay Conner (14:32): Wow! So, Gary, just so our viewers and attendees here don't have to wait to the very end of the show. How about going and, because I want us to dive in here on your perspective, your crystal ball about where you see this thing going and the ramifications and consequences and opportunities from Corona virus. Then before I can get you to dive in on that, just go ahead and tell everybody a little overview about your amazing company, RealEstateInvestor.com and the kind of services that you and your company provide.

Gary Boomershine (15:10): Okay. I'd love to do that. So there is, one of the biggest holes in real estate. Historically, we've been, a lot of us have been targeting off market deals. That means go direct to the seller. They're not on the MLS. It's how do we get in front of, you know, the hot and motivated sellers that are ready, willing and able to sell and but nobody else is targeting them. And that's off market. So there's a couple of ways to do it. The ones that are most proven is direct mail sending out text messages, right? Legally. Ringless voicemail, which means dropping a voicemail to them where the phone doesn't even ring and then cold calling. So number of ways just to, you know, you gotta buy the list of names and addresses correctly, and then you've got to market to those people.

Gary Boomershine (16:00): And with the output of being, you know, qualified sellers that you can go meet with and close and it's a lot more of a daunting task than most people think. And so we perfected it. I started this from my background in 2005 and today, fast forward, we've done over 50 million pieces of direct mail. I do it for a handful of people around the country, about 1200 active investors that are actively buying. So over 50 million pieces of direct mail. I've got every response rate, which means every metric around what's working in what part of the country. And on top of that, I have a phone team that does, and a system. A proprietary follow-up system that does all of the follow-ups so that we can generate the leads unless our some of our clients have their own, but we put those into a proprietary system. And I can talk about that does automated follow-up. It's almost like a little engine that basically says, Oh, this, this person needs to get an email. Oh, this person needs to get a text message with the exactly the right word. So most of us as real estate investors, we don't have to do any of the thinking. And then on top of that, I have a phone team. Those are called inside sales agents or lead processors. Somebody that's dialing for dollars. That's calling those and following up on all those seller leads at the right time with the right message. And then the output of that is an appointment. A scheduled qualified appointment that can be passed over to a real estate investor or agent to go and make offers and close deals. And so we've done about, I think we're at about 3.5 million outbound phone calls on behalf of our members.

Gary Boomershine (17:56): And so we've got lots of different services and offerings with RealEstateInvestor.com we've got lots of free stuff. But yeah, you check us out if you're, if you're new or you're super, super experienced RealEstateInvestor.com may have something for you. And we'd love talking to real estate professionals. And you know, we're super passionate about it. I have about 115 people on staff all over the world. And I, we recently we did an inc 500 fastest growing company three years in a row. And recently we used to be called REI vault. You can actually see that behind me, but we recently merged, acquired a couple of software companies and have merged into RealEstateInvestor.com which is a brand that I've owned for a long time. So RealEstateInvestor.com is a place to, you know, help real estate investors and especially being able to get out of the busy work. The $10 an hour work, that is such a booby trap for most of us, right? We get into real estate for having a life and financial freedom and many people get stuck doing $10 an hour work and wonder why they still have a $10 bank account. And so we're really passionate about helping people kind of jump the line in real estate, whether they're new and they're trying to actually make it real. And have a new lifestyle. And a new life around real estate is the vehicle or people that have been doing this for decades and they're looking to scale and go even even higher. So...

Jay Conner (19:36): if you're just joining us, my special guest today is Gary Boomershine of coming all the way with us from California. And he has an amazing company that he has created. RealEstateInvestor.com with fantastic sources and automated services for locating motivated sellers and having the follow-up process totally automated. So Gary, let's dive in right now to what we got going on with corona virus as far as a real estate investor goes and how you and your team are supporting real estate investors right now to locate motivated sellers and do business. What's different today? What, how are we, how are we going about, how are you going about doing deals differently than product corona virus?

Gary Boomershine (20:30): Yeah, great question. So I want us, I think a great way to start. Number one, we've never been in exactly this situation before. This is new for all of us. In fact, it's new for the entire world. And what we can do though is can use history as a guide in a crystal ball for part of the future. And one of the things I've had a podcast for the last two years and almost every podcast I've been talking about this coming downturn. And I also saw it back in about 2006, 2007 real real estate is a seven year cycle. It has been a seven year cycle for a hundred years and it just happens that this last cycle has been the longest that we've actually had in a hundred years. It was, it got, you know, it went seven years, eight years, nine years.

Gary Boomershine (21:24): We were actually almost at year 11 depending upon where you start and, and those cycles there is a massive transformation of wealth at each of those cycles. And so the hardest part for most real estate investors, especially a full time active real estate investors is actually at the end of the cycle. And so where you really, you know, you would go back to Warren Bufet, you want to buy low, you want to sell high, you also want to buy when there's panic, not when there's euphoria, right? Warren Bufet, one of the smartest, richest guys in the world. I was actually at a shareholder meeting and one of my favorite quotes actually came from his really as COO, CEO, the guy, the brains behind Warren buffet Berkshire Hathaway as Charlie Munger. And he said, his success formula is what's called K. I. S. S. Keep it simple, stupid.

Gary Boomershine (22:21): He goes, you know, you buy. Real estate is a simple game. Nothing new under the sun, right? You don't have to reinvent any wheels. You basically find what works in the current market and replicate it. And then once you, once you make it work, you can make it better for yourself. But a lot of people make the mistake of trying to reinvent the wheel. So we're coming out of a time where we're going to see probably one of the greatest transformations of wealth in history. Real estate investors that are properly prepared and positioned and trained are going to do incredibly well. And I can kind of tell you what we're preparing for a lot of us. I've been interviewing some top, top, top performers around the country. We have Facebook, private, we're basically calling it the beacon of light for real estate investors.

Gary Boomershine (23:15): It's real estate investor. It's basically called real estate investor beacon. We can post that you know, at some point that's it's a private Facebook group we're delivering lots of content there in interviews with people around the country. But what we're finding is most of us that are active are actually excited about this market. This is not a time to be watching the TV. Most of us, there's a lot of people on the sidelines right now. They're watching the TV. I call that fear porn. It's a lot of people, like, my daughter hates me using the last word. She's like, Oh dad, you got to come up. But it really is right. It's panic and a lot of people are frozen and this is not the time to freeze up. We call it the 3PS. This is a time to protect, which is to get your house in order. This is a time to start to pivot and into the moneybmaking activities so that as soon as the market's ready to go, and then the third P is to profit. And...

Jay Conner (24:15): Hey Gary, do you know how many new Netflix subscribers there are in the past six weeks since we've been in Corona virus?

Gary Boomershine (24:24): It's incredible! It's incredible! You know, I, I came alive, I have videos all over Facebook and I talk about social distancing, all these new acronyms too that I don't even want to go down because that becomes like, you know where they're coming from. It's like all of a sudden everybody's parroting these new, you know, these acronyms that had been created by, you know, the guys up on top. But social distancing for me means I am social distancing myself from watching any of the TV. Social distancing myself for being in the house. I can't tell you I'm out hiking, I'm walking, I'm getting a new perspective. This is a really an opportunity of a really reflection, right? And being thankful but also preparing up and people have been asking me like, we're as a family, I've got two daughters and we're having a blast.

Gary Boomershine (25:15): And a lot of us on the real estate side are starting to pivot and we can talk about sort of where I see the market going. But this, there is a lot of money to be made right now around what I consider virtual wholesaling. Especially for people that are fairly new. It's an opportunity. While you know, there's a massive panic, a lot of people aren't paying rents, right? So a lot of these, what we call burned out landlords are not getting the rents and they're realizing, wow, this is an opportunity for me to sell and unload. That's one huge opportunity. There's, there was $3 trillion of money in what's called the i-buyer network. The i-buyer model, instant buyer, that's like Zillow and open door and offer pad. Basically institutional investors. There was $3 trillion available to these sellers where they could sell that.

Gary Boomershine (26:12): Those were competing with us, Jay and myself, and a lot of you, hopefully all of you. And that money is gone. That money literally disappeared off of the streets. And so now all of a sudden we've got this great opportunity where people are panicking and this is an opportunity where you can make money literally without ever going and seeing the house. So a lot of us are doing that. I do think that the market's gonna shift over the next 12 to 24 months where there's going to be an incredible opportunity or an incredible buy opportunity of buying foreclosures, specifically the ones that go back to the bank. And an incredible opportunity to pick up longterm, appreciating assets in the right market at a great price and buying them creatively with cash that you raise, but also create a financing that you can get from the seller and these types of markets.

Gary Boomershine (27:10): So I'm super excited. I, you know, obviously we're locked down. There's a lot of unknown. There's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of sequestering of information, right? In fact, you can't even be on YouTube now and quote the C word. That sounds, I call it the cerveza bug by the way, you know, correctly the cerveza bug because if you actually use the acronym they will take you down. The YouTube CEO basically said, if it doesn't support the narrative of the world health organization, they're, they're basically pulling all those videos. And so just an interesting time, but this is an opportunity to really connect with other investors. And if you're an agent, other agents and a lot of us are preparing and not stopping what we're doing, this is not a time to stop the business because if you don't have marketing and you don't have sales, then your business is toast. And this is an opportunity, a lot of us, I'll tell you, like a lot of us that have been doing this business, we're doubling up on marketing right now because this is the time.

Gary Boomershine (28:17): There's a lot of people that are not doing it. Our competitors are not doing it. And this is a time to take those old leads. If you've been doing this business for a while, we're actually going back to all those old leads and with the right system and following up and getting them on the phone and finding that, Hey, there, now all of a sudden they're interested people that said, you know, they were hanging up and said, don't bother me. Or they said, Hey, I'm not interested in selling. All of a sudden they're starting to open up again. It's really awesome.

Jay Conner (28:44): Yeah. So are you advising your clients now to until we come out of corona virus to back off of their marketing? Any looking for motivated sellers or to stay consistent or to increase their budget?

Gary Boomershine (29:00): Yeah, well it's, there's a lot of components around that. So this is first and foremost, if this is really a time to double up on marketing and this is definitely time to double up on your follow-up specifically following up. And I can go through the math on that, but you got to have, marketing is not the end all be all. Okay. You have to, you use marketing to generate leads and then there's a sales component that is to convert those leads into dollars. And you have to have both working. So a lot of us are making sure that, you know, the marketing is fairly easy. You can use a company like RealEstateInvestor.com if you want. It's basically, it's a numbers game. It's really a numbers game. It's like I have to spend a dollar to make $5.

Gary Boomershine (29:50): It's a return on investment. And knowing the math around, you know, what market you're in and how much do you have to spend to get enough leads that then you can get on the phone and then convert. And so this is a time but you have to have the sales piece in place as well. And what I found is that the, you gotta have marketing to generate leads. You have to have a system to automate the follow-up. And because there's massive amounts of follow-up required to close a deal, it's just the way it works. And then you need a phone team that also is actually talking to the sellers. And then preferably if you're a real estate professional, all you want is the good ones. You want the ones that are saying, yes, I got a three bedroom, two bath house, I'm interested in selling properties currently vacant. And so as long as you've got both marketing and sales working, this is a time to double up in my opinion.

Jay Conner (30:48): Yeah. So Gary, in your opinion and what you've observed, where do you think real estate investors missed the ball in their follow-up or lack of follow-up?

Gary Boomershine (31:02): Yeah, great question. Number one, not doing it. Not doing it. Most. What we saw as the difference between success and failure was really those that did it consistently. We're actually converting and those that didn't complaint and they basically said, okay,

Jay Conner (31:20): How often should you, how often should a real estate investor follow up? And who should they follow up with? I mean, should they follow up with the people that said, you know, don't you ever call me again?

Gary Boomershine (31:32): Here's the number. This is a Harvard review. And by the way, this is not just real estate. This is almost any type of direct response marketing, direct mail being one of them. Cold calling be another. Leads coming in from Facebook or you know, Google pay per click is what they call it. 90% of the profits come from the sixth contact and after. 90% come from the sixth interaction. Okay. Interaction with the seller. Like they're actually interacting with you. Less than 10% of all investors and real estate agents in the entire country follow up more than twice. Okay. And why? Because it's a massive amount of work. I mean, so that's number one. Number two is trying to do it yourself is like. I use the concept of opening up a pizza parlor. Imagine if we're going to be a business owner.

Gary Boomershine (32:38): Okay, that's what we are. If we're actually doing full time real estate and trying to buy and flip properties kind of full time, that's a business operator. You're a real estate business operator, not a true real estate investor. A true real estate investor according to Warren Bufet. Not Gary Boomershine. But Warren Bufet says you have money, you buy a physical asset, which is a real estate property, whatever kind it is, that's the asset. And then you hold it and you take all the benefits of real estate over the long haul, right? And the tax advantages and the appreciation. So a real estate business operator. Imagine if you're, imagine that you have a pizza company and you decide to invest in a pizza company and imagine you don't have that much money. So you, you're the cook and you're making the pizzas, you're taking the phone calls, you know, you're putting up the advertising and handing out all the flyers. And then you're taking the orders when people come in. Or taking the phone calls for their pizza and then you're flying back to the back of the kitchen and you're making the pizzas and then you get in the delivery truck and you go deliver them.

Gary Boomershine (33:43): And that's that. It's impossible. It's not a business, right? That is a job and a really terrible job cause you're not going to make that much money, right? So really what you want to do is you want to leverage, just like we leverage money, right? OPM, which is using other people's money. That's the whole game of real estate is you leverage money to borrow money at one rate, make money than another, and take the spread. You want to leverage people, other people. And there are time, experience and resources. And you know, and you get a massive return on investment. So as a real estate investor, a real estate operator, our time is really worth somewhere. If you do the real calculation, if we want to make a half a million to a million dollars or whatever the number is, typically your time value of your time is worth between 250 and a thousand dollars an hour.

Gary Boomershine (34:38): So if you're doing $5 or $10 an hour work, like pulling mailing lists and sending out licking stamps and talking to sellers and doing all the text follow up, you know, you don't have enough time in the day to actually go and raise money and close deals. You're doing one or the other. So you want to leverage people at a fraction of the cost. That's how you get a massive return. So that's like a lot of people come to RealEstateInvestor.com to say, Hey, how do I get the maximum bang for my buck? By spend a dollar, how do I actually make five with as little work as possible? And then we say, Oh, let's set up your marketing if you want, let's set up your followup system in 24 hours. It's all automated. You don't have to do a darn thing except, you know, do a little bit of training on how to use it.

Gary Boomershine (35:23): And then if you want to use our phone team to actually do all the work, we can do that. And then we do it for them. In any parts of that, a lot of people have said, Hey, can we just use your follow-up system? Or, Hey, can I just use your phone team? And so we have those capabilities. So the follow-up is absolutely key. The phone team have actually, there's one thing that you cannot automate in this business. For all of you that are fairly new people that have been doing it will totally get this. But you cannot automate the talking to people. You have to do. There's a live human interaction with the seller and with the buyer that you cannot have a system that automatically does it for you. Down the road maybe artificial intelligence, right? 10 or 20 years. There's a live interaction because when you're buying a physical property from a seller, there's a relationship. There's some trust building and there's coming up with an offer or a solution to their problem.

Gary Boomershine (36:23): Okay? And that can't be automated. You can automate everything else. And those that do it right and automate all of that work, the $10 an hour work so that they can just get, you know, 10 appointments a week. Five appointments a week. Two appointments a week. Whatever the number is, right? Then it becomes a numbers game. And when you get good at this business, you can then hire a sales person, right? And leverage them to do that work for you. So you're really standing back and just collecting a piece of big, a nice piece of the pie.

Jay Conner (36:58): My special guest today is Gary Boomershine, creator and founder of RealEstateInvestor.com has amazing service for helping you as a real estate investor, locate motivated sellers and has a way to completely automate the process when it comes to follow-up. Gary, is, we are about to wrap up the show. Tell our audience and viewers at what point in RealEstateInvestor.com automation process does either the real estate investor or the real estate investors acquisitionist as you just said, who actually is going to be talking to the seller? At what point in the process do they become involved?

Gary Boomershine (37:40): Yeah. It's so funny. A lot of people come in and they're like, so you do all this stuff. What's left for us to do? And I hear it, we hear that. And Julia who talks to most of our, she's an investor herself out of Dallas, but she says, you do have to close the deals. You do have to, we're going to tee up these deals for you via with a, here's the script, here's exactly what the seller said. You're going to have to go out and make the offers to them. And negotiate a great deal and close it and profit from it. So, you know, we're going to be on the front end, really is your team is your expert resource team that are experts. But we're not stealing your pencils and drinking your coffee, right? We're not sitting in your office.

Gary Boomershine (38:26): You don't have to train us to do anything. You don't have to hire somebody in the Philippines to, and keep them motivated and manage them and make sure that they're moonlighting with like 10 other clients. Like that's what we do. And our team will manage that for you. And it's pretty awesome. So you do have to close the deals. There's a lot of, you know, we love, you know, we love, we don't provide the training. We typically the training of real estate. There's some great people, like you guys have an incredible three day free event. We're actually promoting your upcoming event here because we've got some great people and we know exactly what you teach is congruent to, you know, what we think the market's going to be doing. And so you go to, you know, you got to JayConner.com and do that training.

Gary Boomershine (39:21): And then if you've got the training, you combine it with what we have and it's like, it's like peanut butter and chocolate, right? You got the great training and the great coaching and then you got the great system and boom should, should work. But there is work. You know, anybody that thinks that you can truly just make money in your underwear and go to bed you know, broke and wake up rich. That's not real estate. That's not anything that I've ever seen. And anytime I hear somebody talk about that, I say run away from it quickly. Right? Cause it's, I'm 51 years old and I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of thousands of dollars on pretty much every training known to mankind and I've never seen anything that just pops out of a box and works perfectly. There is some stuff that you have to do.

Jay Conner (40:06): Yeah. But money still does not grow on trees for sure. Thank you so much for coming on for the show today. Parting comments?

Gary Boomershine (40:16): You know, I think this is a I know in the crazy time that we have right now this is a crazy time and I just think that I always go back, I'm a faith based guy and I go back to first Timothy one seven, which is God did not give us a spirit of fear but that of love and self-discipline. Right? And so I really embrace that fear is false evidence appearing real and right. And so I just think this is a time to, again, the 3PS. And this is, you know, this is going to be an interesting this week, the next 12 months are really going to be around taking advantage of the current market. But what we're going to see is we're going to see an opportunity for a massive, you know, buying opportunity because there is inflation coming, which means assets, physical properties are going to skyrocket.

Gary Boomershine (41:15): And I anticipate that being in the, really around the 24 month timeframe. So using that as an opportunity to learn from guys like Jay and be prepared, right? You're gonna want to learn how to raise money. You're gonna want to learn how to do the virtual real estate. You want to learn how to do creative deals, raise money, et cetera, as I said, and be surrounding yourself with the people that are doing this business today and that are abundance mentality and willing to teach you. That's my, that's my take. Long winded, but that's my take.

Jay Conner (41:49): I'm right there with your brother. There you have it folks, my good friend and special guest and expert, Gary Boomershine. Gary, thank you for coming on. And again, thank you to everyone tuning in. We had a bunch more people tune in here. We've got Paula. We got Jermone. We got heroine. We got Javier. And we've got the whole crowd here. So thank you for joining folks. I'm Jay Conner, "The Private Money Authority". Be sure and connect with Gary boomershine at www.RealEstateInvestor.com. And here's to taking your real estate investing business to the next level. We'll see all of y'all on the next show. Bye for now.

Scott Paton (42:40): Okay, well I didn't hang up. We're still live. It's the after show. It's the after party after show where all the really good stuff gets talked about.

Jay Conner (42:48): And then we've got a bunch of people still here on live. So again, thanks to everyone for tuning in. Just a real quick plug since we've finished the actual show being turned into the podcast. You're welcome, Harold. Thank you for coming and y'all stay safe up there in New York. But for those of y'all that came in after we got started, I got three free days, May 15th, 22nd and 29th. These are going to be all day trainings, free virtual that I'll be conducting. That's Friday, May 15th, Friday, May 22nd and 29th and the first Friday so you can get registered for free at www.JayConner.com/fortune. The first Friday May 15th is going to be all about private money.

Jay Conner (43:38): How to get a bunch of private money right here in the midst of Corona virus. I got more private money coming on my shelf than I've had in a long time. The second Friday, May 22nd is going to be how to serve a ton of people in foreclosure and make a fortune in foreclosures, particularly when they come on the other side of the Corona virus. I want to get you all prepared for it. That's what we're going to do on Friday, May 29th I'm, excuse me, Friday May 22nd and then Friday May 29th is going to be how to locate and get a bunch of free private money. I'm not going to tell you what free private money is until that Friday, but I got a strategy to teach you is that how you can buy a bunch of property without even having to raise any private money as well. So you all get on over there to JayConner.com/fortune and get registered for that. Think Gary Boomershine is participating those three free Fridays, so we're looking forward to Gary being a part of it as well.

Scott Paton (44:37): What else, Scott, before we let all these people go?

Scott Paton (44:41): I was trying to think of one last sort of deep question to ask Gary and about real estate. And I was just coming to blank because you really covered everything that I was curious about. But one thing that comes to mind. Gary, is there anything that you do that keeps your attitude and your mindset in the right place? Because I know that, you know, I'm sure that there's, well, suicide rates are going through the roof. Alcohol and marijuana are going through the roof. So obviously a lot of people are having a hard time dealing with this situation. It's not an easy situation. So what are some of the things that you would recommend people do?

Gary Boomershine (45:20): Yeah. Well, what one is, I am a, gosh, I've been where almost all of us have been. I come from being a crazy workaholic and it's very easy to be a workaholic and then repeating the same cycle over and over again. It's the Albert Einstein quote of insanity, right? Of doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. So you have to change. If you want a different outcome, you have to change what you do. Mindset, the most expensive real estate is the six inches between here and here. It is really all about our mindset. I do what's called habit stacking. And these are creating new habits. Typically 2200. So you want a new habit.

Scott Paton (46:06): 2200 new habits?

Gary Boomershine (46:08): It's 20 slash 200. If you want a new habit, it's really 20 days is 20 days or 200 times. And so when I stack habits, I actually, I've got multiple coaches. I always have a, like I have, I have four CEO coaches in my life, one of them being a personal trainer. So whenever I want to perfect something and improve something, I always go get a coach. That's a been a life changer. Number two is I associate myself with likeminded people. I do masterminds, the huge mastermind proponent. The third is I always follow a best practice. I go and I find something that's already working and I just, I just grab it as my own. But habit stacking. So let me walk through one of the habits I do. I have a 5, 10, 3 rule. All right. I wake up and this actually came from a coach of mine years ago. I wake up at five, we all have the same 24 hour day. So how can somebody I used to use bill Gates's name, but I don't really like to refer to him anymore.

Gary Boomershine (47:25): I'll just leave it at that. But anyway people can read into that however you want, but you know, how, how do you take somebody like Warren Bufet, right? Or somebody like Jack Welch who ran general electric or, or those guys have the same 24 hours and how are they able to do what they do within the same hours? Cause the time is the, is the most precious commodity on this planet. It's our time. And when you do the exercise, I'm 51, when I actually look at the number of really hours that I have, it's actually pretty limited. And then I look at, I look at the number of hours that I want to have a life and how do I fit? How do I fit my work time into all the other stuff that I want to do. Skiing and fly fishing and hiking and biking and spending time with my family.

Gary Boomershine (48:14): So here's what I do. I go to bed earlier and I wake up at five in the morning. I push out my Workday actually till 10. So that gives me five hours of personal time. And I've found that I don't actually have any time issues anymore because I have, I have five hours. And then during those five hours I work out, I exercise. I actually have dropped like 40 pounds in the last couple of years by doing that. And I journal. And I do prayer. And I read scripture. This is my morning time. That's my time. I always make coffee for my wife and clean the kitchen too. That's actually that by so many dividends I've been doing that.

Scott Paton (49:00): That's a way, great way of being in service to your relationship.

Gary Boomershine (49:04): Absolutely. Amazing. And then I follow a, the one thing that Dr. Gary Keller, Keller Williams, right? The founder. He's got 2 million realtors, realtor teams around the country. He has the one thing. So I actually will go in and put my one thing that I'm going to do to move the marker. There you go! I actually interviewed his business partner. Jay. I actually just did a podcast with him. It was amazing. But the one thing, and now I'm able to sometimes do as many as three. What's the one thing that I'm going to do as a CEO to move the marker today and then the 3, 5, 10. The three is the three hours that I work in my businesses not just business. I actually have three businesses that I'm going to move the marker and then I focus on that one thing. And I do that before going to social media, responding to email, returning phone calls.

Gary Boomershine (50:04): I do the one thing that's going to be the money making activity to move the marker my business. And that's really changed my life. That's the mindset. I am very optimistic and thankful. Like I lived in a world of being thankful for what we have. And what we have the freedom, the, you know, I told my daughters, I'm like, there's, you know, with all the stuff going on, why do we pray at night? And it's to be thankful for what we have because we don't know what tomorrow's going to bring. And it gives me a mad amazing knowing that allows me to live in the present and not about the future. Cause we really don't know what the future is. And I can tell you that gives me an amazing amount of peace and then I, and then I can, I can deliver that same amount to my team. And let's see, what else? I would say being a servant leader, this is not like being Caesar. It is the servant leader is the triangle, except upside down. I'm the servant for my team. It's not the other way around. And I can't tell you how the team will run through walls if you have a servant heart in all you do.

Scott Paton (51:13): Awesome. Well thanks for sharing that Gary. Really appreciate it.

Jay Conner (51:16): Thank you so much Gary. Well look, Scott I'm gonna jump off. And Scott, I guess you are taking care of Gary and his team with everything that they need for our joint venture.

Scott Paton (51:30): Yeah, I'm working on that right now. So in the next day or two I'll be reaching out to everybody.

Gary Boomershine (51:35): Awesome. I'm really excited. I've been, we've been putting together all the special training that we want to do for your three day events and I'm really excited of being able to share with everybody who's signing up with JayConner.com/fortune. Correct?

Jay Conner (51:57): There you go! Don't let your people push that out because we've got to get your affiliate in place to cookie all of your people.

Gary Boomershine (52:05): Okay. Love it.

Scott Paton (52:07): I'm gonna be working with Jay's on that today and tomorrow.

Scott Paton (52:10): Thank you so much, Garry. Scott, I'll see you in 55 minutes. Yep, right. Bye bye.

[organiclifestylemagazine]

Interview With Joel Salatin, Polyface Farms

Joel Salatin is an American farmer and author. He owns Polyface Farms, which is known for its small scale unconventional farming methods. Months ago I heard Joel on a Joe Rogan podcast and was immediately blown away. It’s not very often that we hear people discuss the gut microbiome on one of the most popular podcasts in the country.

Here’s that podcast. I highly recommend listening to it if you have the time.

Along with discussing the gut microbiome, Joel talked about his farm, Polyface Farms. Polyface Farms is located in Virginia, and they do things a little differently than most. The land that is now Polyface farms was purchased by Joel’s parents in 1961. They’re all about regenerative farming through sustainable practices, like pasture-raised meat, carbon sequestration, and working in a seasonal cycle.

In short, it’s a dream come true for someone like myself who is all about organic eco-friendly agriculture, so naturally, I had to ask Joel a couple of questions.

The older generation is a big fan of talking about life when they were young. My grandfather loves to talk about the fact that he was raised on cow’s milk, and he turned out “just fine.” The difference, of course, is that the milk he was raised on was unpasteurized small scale cows milk. What encouraged you to get into small scale sustainable farming? Does it relate back to how you were raised or did you have some sort of revelation in life? Feel free to comment on how things have changed if you have any thoughts on that.

My paternal grandfather was a charter subscriber to Rodale’s Organic Gardening and Farming Magazine when it came out in the late 1940s.  He always wanted to farm but never did.  He had a very large garden, though, and sold extra produce to neighbors and corner grocers.  My dad received his no-chemical indoctrination, then, from Grandpa, so I’m the third generation in the compost tradition.  My Dad was a financial wizard and did accounting work all his life.  After flying Navy bombers in WWII, he went to Indiana University on the GI bill and then headed off to Venezuela, South America as a bilingual accountant with Texas Oil Company.  His long-range goal was a farm in a developing country and Venezuela seemed as good as any.  After about 7 years he’d saved up enough to buy 1,000 acres in the highlands of Venezuela and began farming.  The goal was dairy and broilers. My older brother and I were born during that time, and things looked bright.  But then came a junta and the ouster of Peres Jimenez and animosity toward anything American; we fled the back door as the machine guns came in the front door; lost everything and after exhausting all attempts at protection, (we) came back to the U.S. Easter Sunday 1961, landing in Philadelphia. Mom grew up in Ohio and Texas and all their family was in Ohio and Indiana, but Dad’s heart was still in Venezuela and he hoped after the political turmoil settled to be able to return to our farm.  

With that in mind, he wanted to be within a day’s drive of Washington D.C. so he could get to the Venezuelan Embassy quickly and easily to do paperwork and return. That never happened, but it’s why we ended up in Virginia’s Shenandoah Valley.  When I hit 41, I remember thinking: “If I lost it all, would I start over?” That’s what Dad and Mom did in 1961. I was 4.  Dad did his accounting work, and Mom was a high school health and physical ed teacher; that off-farm income paid the mortgage and within 10 years the land was paid off.  Dad combined his ecology with his economic understanding to create some broad principles: animals move; mobile infrastructure; direct marketing; carbon-driven fertility.  I had my first flock of laying hens when I was 10 years old and then added a garden.  By 14 years old, I was our main salesman at the local Curb Market, a Depression-era hold-over that foreshadowed today’s farmers’ markets.  With only 3 vendors, it struggled but after a couple of years, we had a growing and steady clientele for our pastured meats, poultry, eggs, produce, and dairy products (yogurt, butter, cottage cheese). We closed it down when I went off to college and the other two elderly matrons at the market quite as well so by the time I came home, that market and all of its wonderful grandfathered food safety exemptions were gone forever.

I’ve always said we were about 20 years ahead of our time.  Operating that market during my teen years of early 1970s as the nascent back-to-the-land hippie movement germinated was not easy, but the lessons were invaluable when I returned to the farm and started building a clientele on my own in 1980, long before modern farmers’ markets. Teresa and I married in 1980, remodeled the attic of the farmhouse, and lived there for 7 years until Mom and Dad moved out from downstairs to a mobile home parked outside the yard.  My Mom’s mother had lived there for 10 years and passed away, making that spot available.  As an investigative reporter at the local daily newspaper, I realized every business was desperate for people who would show up on time, put in a full days’ work without whining, and actually creatively think through better ways of doing things all made me highly employable.  Living on $300 a month, driving a $50 car, growing all of our own, cutting our own firewood for winter warmth, not having a TV—all these things enabled us even without a high salary to squirrel away half the paycheck.  Within a couple of years we had saved enough to live on for a year.  I walked out of that office Sept. 24, 1982, with a one-year cash nest egg and the jeering of every person I knew”  “He’s throwing his life away.”  “All that talent and he’s going to waste it on a farm.” “Don’t you know you can’t make any money farming?”

We succeeded. 

While we were watching the podcast you did with Joe Rogan, my dad and I had several “Wow!” moments listening to you. One of us would be in the kitchen, and we would run into the living room where the podcast was playing, and share a look of absolute awe. “This guy is talking about the stuff that we talk about! And he’s on Joe Rogan!” We don’t know many people who talk about gut health the way we do. How did you learn about the importance of the body’s microbiome? Is there a correlation between your knowledge of the microbiome and how you run your farm? 

Perhaps the most profound truth in life is that everything we see floats in an ocean of invisible beings.  With electronic microscopes, we can now see many of these things, but because we can’t see them with the naked eye, they are not in our momentary conscience.  It’s hard to forget the microbes floating in the air, on our skin, in our eyes, nostrils, and intestines.  Our farm’s wellness philosophy stems from Antoine Béchamp, the French contemporary and nemesis of Louis Pasteur.  While Pasteur promoted the germ theory and busied himself destroying and sterilizing, Beauchamp advanced the terrain theory and encouraged people to think about basic immunity.  Rather than sterilization, he encouraged sanitation.  He encouraged folks to get more sleep, drink more and better water (much of the water at that time was putrid) and eat better food.  Along came Sir Albert Howard half a century later adding the soil dimension to this basic wellness premise.

In general, we believe nature’s default position is fundamentally wellness and if it’s not well, we humans probably did something to mess it up.  That’s a far cry from assuming wellness is like catching lightning in a bottle, and some sort of sickness fairy hovers over the planet dropping viral stardust willy nilly.  Sickness and disease, whether in humans, plants, or animals are not the problem in and of themselves; they simply manifest weaknesses developed in the unseen world.  Every sickness or disease we’ve ever had on our farm was our fault.  We may have selected the wrong seedstock, crowded things, created incubators for pathogens.  You can stress things a lot of different ways.  But our assumption when confronted with non-wellness is not to assume we missed a vaccine or a pharmaceutical, but rather to ask “what did we do to break down the immunological function of this plant or animal?”  That leads to far more profound truth than assuming we didn’t select the right connection from the chemistry lab.

The fact that today people actually talk about the microbiome in polite company is a fantastic societal breakthrough. Hopefully, it will continue.

The current “pandemic” resulted in a total collapse of our food chain at big grocery stores. While things have since calmed down and straightened out, many people are now aware of just how weak our food supply chain is. The obvious solution- buy small- scale, buy local. The obvious problem- buying meat the right way, (small scale and local) is expensive. Here where I am in Detroit we’ve got a great meat guy, but a couple of weeks ago I found myself at the Dekalb farmers market in Atlanta. I spent $9 for one pound of organic, grass-fed ground beef. What are your thoughts for people who are concerned about the costs of shopping ethically? On a broader scale, do you have any solutions to this? 

Price; it’s one of the biggest and most common questions.  So let’s tackle it on several fronts.

1.  Whenever someone says they can’t afford our food, I grab them by the arm and say “take me to your house.” Guess what I find there? Take-out, coffee, alcohol, sometimes tobacco, Netflix, People magazine, iPhones, flat-screen TV, tickets to Disney, lottery tickets—you get the drift. Very seldom does “I can’t afford it” carry any weight. We buy what we want, and that includes many folks below the poverty line.  

2.  Buy unprocessed. That $9 ground beef is still less than a fast food meal of equal nutritional value. Domestic culinary skills are the foundation of integrity food systems, and never have we had more techno-gadgetry to make our kitchens efficient. The average American spends fewer than 15 minutes a day in their kitchen. Nearly 80 percent of Americans have no clue at 4 p.m. what’s for dinner. In fact, the new catchphrase for millennials is “what’s dinner?” not “what’s for dinner?” So cooking from scratch is the number one way to reduce costs. Right now you can buy a whole Polyface pastured broiler, world-class, for less a pound than boneless skinless breast Tyson chicken at Wal-Mart. The most expensive heirloom Peruvian blue potato at New York City green markets is less per pound than Lay’s potato chips across the street. It’s about the processing.

3.  Buy bulk. Get a freeze and buy half a beef or 20 chickens at a time.  Buy a bushel of green beans and can them.  We buy 10 bushels of apples every fall and spend two days making applesauce; it’s cheaper than watery junk at the supermarket and is real food.  That’s not a waste of time; it’s kitchen camaraderie.  On our farm, we give big price breaks for volume purchasing because it’s simply more efficient to handle a $500 transaction than 25 $20 transactions.  This means, of course, that you must have a savings plan.  Half of all Americans can’t put their hands on $400 in cash.  That’s not an expensive food problem; that’s an endemic and profound failure to plan

Q: Here at OLM we’re a big fan of systems. We also have 10,000 square foot urban farm right in our back yard and are getting chickens very soon. Developing a farm feels a bit like an optimal opportunity to create the “perfect” system. I’m curious as to how the farm is systemized to be self-sustainable. I’m wondering if the farm is carbon neutral or carbon negative? Do you let your chickens work on your compost pile? Do you monitor cow grazing for optimum carbon sequestration? What advice do you have for the many people including us, who have just started growing our food after the current crisis?

Perhaps the starting point is to think of integration rather than segregation.  How many different species of things can you hook together for symbiosis?  So we follow the cows with the laying hens in Eggmobiles to scratch through the cow dung, spread out the manure as fertilizer, and eat the fly larvae out of the cowpats (this mimics the way birds always follow herbivores in nature).  We build compost with pigs (we call them pig aerators).  We have chickens underneath rabbit cages, generating $10,000 a year in a space the size of a 2-car garage and making the most superb compost in the world.  We see trees as carbon sinks to integrate with open land; industrial commercial chippers enable us to chip crooked, diseased, and dying trees for compost carbon.  The kitchen and gardening scraps go to the chickens.  Hoop houses for rabbits, pigs, and chickens in the winter double up as vegetable production in the spring, summer, and fall, creating pathogen dead-ends for the plants and animals growing there at different times of the year.  Integration is everything.

In half a century, we’ve moved our soil organic matter from 1 percent to 8.2 percent.  I don’t know if we’re overall carbon-neutral, but we’ve done this without buying an ounce of chemical fertilizer and using 800 percent less depreciable infrastructure per gross income dollar than the average U.S. farm.  That creates resilience.  Over the years we’ve installed 8 miles of waterlines from permaculture style high ponds that catch surface run-off and gravity feed to the farmland below.  And the rocks and gullies now grow vegetation where none grew before.  This is not pride; it’s a humble acknowledgment of a Creator’s benevolent and abundant design; it’s our responsibility to caress this magnificent womb.

Interview With Joel Salatin, Polyface Farms was originally published on Organic Lifestyle Magazine

[meeedeee]

Shin Godzilla: Disasters, Tropes & Cultural Memory RSS FEED OF POST WRITTEN BY FOZMEADOWS

Warning: spoilers for Shin Godzilla.

I’ve been wanting to see Shin Godzilla since it came out last year, and now that it’s available on iTunes, I’ve finally had the chance. Aside from the obvious draw inherent to any Godzilla movie, I’d been keen to see a new Japanese interpretation of an originally Japanese concept, given the fact that every other recent take has been American. As I loaded up the film, I acknowledged the irony in watching a disaster flick as a break from dealing with real-world disasters, but even so, I didn’t expect the film itself to be quite so bitingly apropos.

While Shin Godzilla pokes some fun at the foibles of Japanese bureaucracy, it also reads as an unsubtle fuck you to American disaster films in general and their Godzilla films in particular. From the opening scenes where the creature appears, the contrast with American tropes is pronounced. In so many natural disaster films – 2012, The Day After Tomorrow, Deep Impact, Armageddon, San Andreas – the Western narrative style centres by default on a small, usually ragtag band of outsiders collaborating to survive and, on occasion, figure things out, all while being thwarted by or acting beyond the government. There’s frequently a capitalist element where rich survivors try to edge out the poor, sequestering themselves in their own elite shelters: chaos and looting are depicted up close, as are their consequences. While you’ll occasionally see a helpful local authority figure, like a random policeman, trying to do good (however misguidedly), it’s always at a remove from any higher, more coordinated relief effort, and particularly in more SFFnal films, a belligerent army command is shown to pose nearly as much of a threat as the danger itself.

To an extent, this latter trope appears in Shin Godzilla, but to a much more moderated effect. When Japanese command initially tries to use force, the strike is aborted because of a handful of civilians in range of the blast, and even when a new attempt is made, there’s still an emphasis on chain of command, on minimising collateral damage and keeping the public safe. At the same time, there’s almost no on-the-ground civilian elements to the story: we see the public in flashes, their online commentary and mass evacuations, a few glimpses of individual suffering, but otherwise, the story stays with the people in charge of managing the disaster. Yes, the team brought together to work out a solution – which is ultimately scientific rather than military – are described as “pains-in-the-bureaucracy,” but they’re never in the position of having to hammer, bloody-fisted, on the doors of power in order to rate an audience. Rather, their assemblage is expedited and authorised the minute the established experts are proven inadequate.

When the Japanese troops mobilise to attack, we view them largely at a distance: as a group being addressed and following orders, not as individuals liable to jump the chain of command on a whim. As such, the contrast with American films is stark: there’s no hotshot awesome commander and his crack marine team to save the day, no sneering at the red tape that gets in the way of shooting stuff, no casual acceptance of casualties as a necessary evil, no yahooing about how the Big Bad is going to get its ass kicked, no casual discussion of nuking from the army. There’s just a lot of people working tirelessly in difficult conditions to save as many people as possible – and, once America and the UN sign a resolution to drop a nuclear bomb on Godzilla, and therefore Tokyo, if the Japanese can’t defeat it within a set timeframe, a bleak and furious terror at their country once more being subject to the evils of radiation.

In real life, Japan is a nation with extensive and well-practised disaster protocols; America is not. In real life, Japan has a wrenchingly personal history with nuclear warfare; America, despite being the cause of that history, does not.

Perhaps my take on Shin Godzilla would be different if I’d managed to watch it last year, but in the immediate wake of Hurricane Harvey, with Hurricane Irma already wreaking unprecedented damage in the Caribbean, and huge tracts of Washington, Portland and Las Angeles now on fire, I find myself unable to detach my viewing from the current political context. Because what the film hit home to me – what I couldn’t help but notice by comparison – is the deep American conviction that, when disaster strikes, the people are on their own. The rich will be prioritised, local services will be overwhelmed, and even when there’s ample scientific evidence to support an imminent threat, the political right will try to suppress it as dangerous, partisan nonsense.

In The Day After Tomorrow, which came out in 2004, an early plea to announce what’s happening and evacuate those in danger is summarily waved off by the Vice President, who’s more concerned about what might happen to the economy, and who thinks the scientists are being unnecessarily alarmist. This week, in the real America of 2017, Republican Rush Limbaugh told reporters that the threat of Hurricane Irma, now the largest storm ever recorded over the Atlantic Ocean, was being exaggerated by the “corrupted and politicised” media so that they and other businesses could profit from the “panic”.

In my latest Foz Rants piece for the Geek Girl Riot podcast, which I recorded weeks ago, I talk about how we’re so acclimated to certain political threats and plotlines appearing in blockbuster movies that, when they start to happen in real life, we’re conditioned to think of them as being fictional first, which leads us to view the truth as hyperbolic. Now that I’ve watched Shin Godzilla, which flash-cuts to a famous black-and-white photo of the aftermath of Hiroshima when the spectre of a nuclear strike is raised, I’m more convinced than ever of the vital, two-way link between narrative on the one hand and our collective cultural, historical consciousness on the other. I can’t imagine any Japanese equivalent to the moment in Independence Day when cheering American soldiers nuke the alien ship over Las Angeles, the consequences never discussed again despite the strike’s failure, because the pain of that legacy is too fully, too personally understood to be taken lightly.

At a cultural level, Japan is a nation that knows how to prepare for and respond to natural disasters. Right now, a frightening number of Americans – and an even more frightening number of American politicians – are still convinced that climate change is a hoax, that scientists are biased, and that only God is responsible for the weather. How can a nation prepare for a threat it won’t admit exists? How can it rebuild from the aftermath if it doubts there’ll be a next time?

Watching Shin Godzilla, I was most strongly reminded, not of any of the recent American versions, but The Martian. While the science in Shin Godzilla is clearly more handwavium than hard, it’s nonetheless a film in which scientific collaboration, teamwork and international cooperation save the day. The last, despite a denouement that pits Japan against an internationally imposed deadline, is of particular importance, as global networking still takes place across scientific and diplomatic back-channels. It’s a rare American disaster movie that acknowledges the existence or utility of other countries, especially non-Western ones, beyond shots of collapsing monuments, and even then, it’s usually in the context of the US naturally taking the global lead once they figure out a plan. The fact that the US routinely receives international aid in the wake of its own disasters is seemingly little-known in the country itself; that Texas’s Secretary of State recently appeared to turn down Canadian aid in the wake of Harvey, while now being called a misunderstanding, is nonetheless suggestive of confusion over this point.

As a film, Shin Godzilla isn’t without its weaknesses: the monster design is a clear homage to the original Japanese films, which means it occasionally looks more stop-motion comical than is ideal; there’s a bit too much cutting dramatically between office scenes at times; and the few sections of English-language dialogue are hilariously awkward in the mouths of American actors, because the word-choice and use of idiom remains purely Japanese. Even so, these are ultimately small complaints: there’s a dry, understated sense of humour evident throughout, even during some of the heavier moments, and while it’s not an action film in the American sense, I still found it both engaging and satisfying.

But above all, at this point in time – as I spend each morning worriedly checking the safety of various friends endangered by hurricane and flood and fire; as my mother calls to worry about the lack of rain as our own useless government dithers on climate science – what I found most refreshing was a film in which the authorities, despite their faults and foibles, were assumed and proven competent, even in the throes of crisis, and in which scientists were trusted rather than dismissed. Earlier this year, in response to an article we both read, my mother bought me a newly-released collection of the works of children’s poet Misuzu Kaneko, whose poem “Are You An Echo?” was used to buoy the Japanese public in the aftermath of the 2011 tsunami . Watching Shin Godzilla, it came back to me, and so I feel moved to end with it here.

May we all build better futures; may we all write better stories.

Are You An Echo?

If I say, “Let’s play?” you say, “Let’s play!”

If I say, “Stupid!” you say, “Stupid!”

If I say, “I don’t want to play anymore,” you say, “I don’t want to play anymore.”

And then, after a while, becoming lonely

I say, “Sorry.” You say, “Sorry.”

Are you just an echo? No, you are everyone.

      from shattersnipe: malcontent & rainbows http://ift.tt/2wJXCVQ via IFTTT

[ifonlyicould-changetime]

           Hayley Kiyoko, or Lesbian Jesus, is a queer women of color that is bringing about greater representation of the gay community in popular music. Join in as I explore her music video, “Girls Like Girls” with two of my friends, Colleen and Becca.

          Women historically have been limited in how they’re allowed to express themselves in the media, and as an artist. However, as more women step onto the scene, they’re constantly pushing the boundaries of what it means to be female. Kiyoko, although she is still finding and centering her voice and message, is helping bring more awareness to the queer Asian American community.

          There are many barriers holding back more women from being represented within music. These representations matter because it can show young girls and women that women artists who look like them, or identify like them can be successful and popular in the business. And if they aren’t there, it can be hard to see yourself in those positions. Kiyoko is making headway on this issue by openly being herself and showcasing that through her music.

          Take a listen to my podcast to hear my thoughts about representation in the media!

(Hayley Kiyoko’s music video “Girls Like Girls,” released in 2015)

Read an audio transcript below!

(MUSIC)

Becca: She’s wearing flannel right now, and denim. Like that’s a stereotype for queer women.

(MUSIC)

Mel: You know, the typical American, for some reason, doesn’t represent anyone.

(MUSIC)

Colleen: Whenever I moved to Iowa, it was the first time I felt like I was able to fully express my identity.

(MUSIC)

Mel: Hello everyone, my name is Mel and welcome to my podcast. Today we will be talking about representations of female sexuality in the media. For so long women have been represented from the male perspective. And to me, it feels like only recently that women have been pushing beyond these boundaries to craft their own image, made by women, for women. Although the options are still pretty limited, the way women decide to represent themselves is still changing.

One of the biggest changes I’ve noticed is the greater representation of queer women of color in the music community. So, join me and two of my friends, Colleen and Becca, as we talk about Hayley Kiyoko, an Asian American pop singer who identifies as a lesbian.

( MUSIC “Girls Like Girls”)

Mel: To start, I had us all watch “Girls Like Girls,” which was Kiyoko’s way of publicly coming out as an artist.

So Colleen, what do you think of Kiyoko using her music to come out?

Colleen: It reaches a lot more people that way, for one. In other ways, I guess it just opens it up to more dialogue. Like, look at this person, and look at their lifestyle, and look at their sexuality, and see they’re just a normal person like we are. That sort of thing.

Mel: What about you, Becca? What did you think of the “Girls Like Girls” video?

Becca: I like the suggestion in the music video of- oh you already know this scene, like this is familiar, like we’ve seen this in life and in film. But, sort of look closer, this isn’t actually a straight, like heterosexual female relationship. This is actually a queer relationship. There are obvious nudges towards taking something familiar that we just assume is straight, or we assume is a white narrative or a heterosexual narrative; and it’s like- no it’s actually all of these other story lines that have to do with the queer community and people of color.

Mel: So after we watched the video together, I could just tell that you had something you wanted to say. So, what was it?

Becca: I guess like the first thing I wanted to say after we finished it…was I kinda felt myself rolling my eyes a little bit with the scene where she beats up the boyfriend. I don’t like that. I just don’t really like the aggressive lesbian trope.

Mel: Although the video definitely had a slightly cringey story line to it, Colleen still made a really good point.

Colleen: Like, at the end of the day I feel like, how she wants to come out is how she should come out. And if she wanted to be represented that way, then that’s the way she chose.

Mel: During my conversations with Colleen and Becca, we actually ended up talking about similar topics pretty early on into these conversations. Even when women artists are trying to present themselves as different from this heteronormative normal, somehow defining yourself as a woman still revolves around a man. Colleen brought up how, in general, the media constantly portrays female sexuality through the male gaze. And these representations can be quite harmful and limiting to how women portray themselves. And then Becca also mentioned that in the “Girls like Girls” video, the conflict between these two girls getting together all revolved around a man, the boyfriend, being in-between them.

Becca: Like that’s what the conflict is. The conflict is like, you have two women who obviously have an emotional and physical connection. But there’s a man present, and because the man is present, that can’t actually happen. But once the man is left beat up by a pool, then they can be together.

(MUSIC leads into “What I Need”)

Mel: Near the end of our conversations, I had to opportunity to talk with Colleen and Becca about their own personal experiences identifying as queer women. With Becca, I got to discuss representation of queer women, and she’s in this unique position, and she has a unique point of view because of a photography project she started about a year ago in Iowa City.

Becca: I started IC Women in June of last year. Which is basically a photography project, a series of portraits of queer women, trans women, queer people of varying gender identities living in Iowa City. I’ve photographed maybe 30 queer people, which is very exciting. And I’ve learned a lot about the different narratives and experiences and different kinds of relationships with the self, and culture and the world, that different queer people and queer women have had. So it’s been very humbling. It’s been very intimate, taking a portrait of someone to tell a narrative about one of the most intimate parts of you.

Mel: So along the past year or so, what are some things you’ve realized about representation of queer women?

Becca: Well one of the things I learned pretty fast, maybe I should’ve learned it a lot faster, was just how white the queer community is in Iowa City. Like obviously Iowa City if very white, but the queer community too, of women and just like all members of LGBTQ, is so white. And I kinda of figured that out through other people seeing my work because all of- at least all of the women and queer persons who were wanting to be a part of the project, they were all white, kind of standards of heterosexual feminine beauty. And I got some criticism for that, rightly so, of why aren’t you photographing more trans women, why aren’t you photographing more women of color. And I, at first honestly just didn’t really think of it, I just sort of thought- oh well, I’m broadcasting this project and whoever wants to be in it can be in it. You know, and just sort of trusting that people will come to me. And I didn’t realize how much privilege that is to assume that everyone within a community is comfortable with saying I want to be literally showcased for my identity in your art project.

(MUSIC)

Mel: Sometimes there are just so many unseen barriers to creating representation for others to look at and relate to that we can’t always be aware of, especially coming from a white perspective.

Now, on a different note, Colleen and I had the chance to discuss Greek life and the differences between Texas, where she’s currently living, and Iowa City, where she lived for about 2 years. This is one of her memories of Greek Life in Iowa City.

Colleen: As a woman, I remember some instances. Like I would just be walking down the street by a Greek frat party. And they would just yell at me- you’re a two, you’re a two, you’re so ugly, you’re a two. And it’s just like, woah I’m just walking down a street. Like I’m not even looking at you guys, so I don’t understand why you’re trying to engage me right now and why you’re being so derogatory.

Mel: Yeah, so that kinda goes back to the male gaze you mentioned-

Colleen: -Right, exactly.

Mel: Everything about being a woman is just presented through a man’s perspective, specifically-

Colleen: -Right-

Mel: -a white man’s perspective.

Colleen: Exactly, yeah.

(MUSIC)

Mel: Finding representations that you relate to in the media can prove to be really difficult, but the more diverse we allow women artists to be…it can help change the culture surrounding how women are treated in the media and in reality. Although any artist can obviously be problematic in their representations, the fact that we can even have a discussion about it shows how far society has come in letting women be themselves.

[brentrogers]

Inside Schizophrenia: The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment

Some of the professionals that work most with helping people with schizophrenia are nurses. There are so many types with different skill sets. Host Rachel Star Withers and Co-host Gabe Howards learn who these often overlooked healthcare workers are.

Dr. Tari Dilks, Professor and President of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association, joins with insight on what goes into being a psychiatric nurse. 

Highlights in “The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment” Episode

[01:14] Doctor sidekicks?

[04:00] The types of nurses

[06:40] Nurse Practitioners

[11:00] Nurses specialties

[13:00] Psychiatric Nursing

[17:00] Where do psychiatric nurses work?

[21:00] Home Health Care

[24:10] Guest Interview with Dr. Tari Dilks

[26:17] How psychiatric nursing is different than other types

[34:00] Be the hope for someone

[45:16] Appreciation for what goes into being a nurse

About Our Guest

Sattaria ‘Tari’ Dilks, DNP, APRN, PMHNP-BC, FAANP

Professor and Co-coordinator of Graduate Nursing, College of Nursing and Health Professions, McNeese State University

Dr. Tari Dilks is a professor of nursing at McNeese State University and co-coordinator of McNeese’s Master of Science in Nursing programs. She is also director of the psychiatric/mental health track for the Intercollegiate Consortium for a Master of Science in Nursing partnership involving McNeese, Nicholls State University, Southeastern Louisiana University and the University of Louisiana at Lafayette.

 Currently the President of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association, she consistently advocates for awareness of psychiatric-mental health issues. She the past chair of the APNA Practice Council and was the 2017 recipient of the APNA Award for Excellence in Education.

Dilks obtained her Doctorate of Nursing Practice in psychiatric mental health advanced practice nursing from the University of Tennessee, her Master of Science in Nursing degree and her Master of Arts degree in psychology both from McNeese and her Bachelor of Science in Nursing degree from West Texas State University. She is a family nurse practitioner, psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner and a licensed professional counselor in Louisiana.

She has also been recognized for her leadership by the American Association of Nurse Practitioners with the Louisiana Award for Nurse Practitioner Excellence and her induction into the academy as a Fellow.

www.apna.org

APNA Report: Expanding Mental Health Care Services in America: The Pivotal Role of Psychiatric-Mental Health Nurses

Computer Generated Transcript of “The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia, a look in to better understanding and living well with schizophrenia. Hosted by renowned advocate and influencer Rachel Star Withers and featuring Gabe Howard.

Sponsor: Listeners, could a change in your schizophrenia treatment plan make a difference?  There are options out there you might not know about. Visit OnceMonthlyDifference.com to find out more about once monthly injections for adults with schizophrenia.

Rachel Star Withers: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia, a Psych Central podcast. I’m Rachel Star Withers here with my co-host, Gabe Howard. And this episode, we’re gonna be talking about the roles nurses play in our mental health care.

Gabe Howard: It’s weird to think that nursing has anything to do with schizophrenia, when you suggested the topic was like what? How are we going to get an hour out of this?

Rachel Star Withers: I agree. It really blew my mind. Learning what nurses do has actually been incredible because there is so much that goes into nursing.

Gabe Howard: Sincerely, before we started this, I thought that nurses were Dr. Sidekick’s. I want to be completely honest. I thought that nurses were doctor assistants. Hard stop. That’s it. There was nothing more that they did. The end. And wow, was I wrong.

Rachel Star Withers: If you look at like different TV shows, Scrubs, ER, like when you’re watching them, it’s very segregated. The nurses and the doctors and you just kind of get that idea that they’re two separate things, you know, and obviously doctors what you want. That’s the vibe you get from TV if you don’t know who these people are.

Gabe Howard: It’s very interesting to me, as much as we talk about how. Don’t learn about schizophrenia and mental illness from pop culture and media representations. We’ve had to have said that at least a dozen times over the course of Inside Schizophrenia. And yet here we are learning about the nursing industry from their portrayal on media and pop culture. And it just goes to show you that it’s easy to fall into this trap, that what we’re seeing on TV is somehow some sort of accurate portrayal when in actuality it’s not, it’s fictitious at best.

Rachel Star Withers: All I’m going to say is thank you to all of our wonderful nurses. Obviously we have the pandemic and stuff going on. So thankfully, a lot of people that don’t get seen have been pushed into the spotlight and all the work they’re doing. So any level of nursing, medical, health care. Thank you so much right now, because all those people are giving more than they should have to.

Gabe Howard: I completely agree. Thank you so much for all that you do, and nurses are as a man with red hair, meaning I grew up as a redhead. I’m allowed to say this. The nurses seem to be the red headed stepchildren of the medical industry. They’re so necessary and they do so much. And yet they’re often ignored. And we want to talk about specifically how nurses are helping people with schizophrenia, because, as it turns out, they’re doing an incredible amount of work and even us. Rachel, before we started this show, we’re like, wow. I mean, what do they do? Like what? They check us in when we get there?

Rachel Star Withers: Take my blood pressure?

Gabe Howard: Yeah. They check our blood pressure before, you know, the real person comes in to help us. And that’s really the crux of this conversation. Coming up later, we have a wonderful guest, a woman who has been a nurse for a long time and has done a lot of work. And she’s a psychiatric nurse. And I am excited to have everybody listen to her because, I mean, frankly, she really set us straight.

Rachel Star Withers: Oh, yeah.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, there are different types of nurses, and I don’t mean like psychiatric nurse versus surgical nurse. I mean, like there’s different educational levels. Who have access to do different things. And I was kind of surprised by that as well, because I, I really sincerely thought it was one size fits all.

Rachel Star Withers: So the three basic types. OK. Three general basic types. We have an RN, a Registered Nurse. That’s kind of what I would say most of us think of in our head when we picture a nurse is what is the traditional registered nurse. A lot of times, you know, you go to the hospital, that’s who you are interacting with. They do like the vitals. So you are talking to that person kind of on that level. They can, as we’ll get into, do diagnoses, different assessments, like they play a major part because a lot of times the doctor will only see you for, like, you know, five minutes. But it’s the nurse who does all the work of, hey, this is what I think’s going on, then pulls the doctor in. Then you have licensed practical nurse or vocational nurse, depending on what country or state you’re in, and they are under the supervision of the nurses. I don’t want to say nursing assistant, but kind of. It’s the next level down. But they do a lot of important stuff also. And then there is the CNA, Certified Nursing Assistant. And that’s I hear the most, I guess, with people. I’ll have people talk about what our jobs are. I hear oh, I’m a CNA. I hear that all the time. And I really didn’t know what that meant. But there are ones who do like routine and daily tasks. CND are usually the ones you get to talk to the most. That kind of interact with you, that kind of help you form, like, I don’t want to say emotional bond, ’cause it sounds a little creepy in the medical sense, but, no, that, like the ones you’re like talking to. You know, more one on one. So these are like the three big ones.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that, of course, was most impressive in all of this is that no matter what kind of a nurse you see there on the front lines, it means they have a lot of patient interaction. So when we talk about how nurses help people with schizophrenia, they might be the first medical person that somebody who is in crisis sees. When you walk into the emergency room, the first person that you see is not a doctor. It’s not a psychiatrist. It’s a nurse of some sort. Nurses often see people with schizophrenia and start the process towards diagnosis long before you reach a doctor. So in that way, nurses are extraordinarily vital to noticing the symptoms of schizophrenia and reporting them back up the chain. And I don’t think many people really realize this and that. And that alone shows you the importance of nurses in the treatment of schizophrenia and other mental health issues. Nurses don’t just change bedpans. They’re really doing a lot to keep people with schizophrenia safe. And I was very surprised by that. Rachel, I understand that you’re not as surprised as me because you see a nurse practitioner for your schizophrenia treatment, which I did not know and blew me away.

Rachel Star Withers: Yes. So what that is, though, if you’re listening at home, you’re thinking, Rachel, didn’t go over nurse practitioners as one of her three things. So there are advanced nurses that they are highly trained. Lots and lots of college and lots of certifications having to constantly keep up on what’s going on. These are the people that they can diagnose you. They could actually prescribe medicine. Where I go twice a month for the past, like eight, 10 years is a center. It’s a mental health center. And I have never met the psychiatrist there. I think there’s one or two on staff. But they are over these nurses. So I’ve always met with, like a different nurse over the years. And I assumed I was meeting with the doctor, really. Just like in the past where I met with psychiatrist. You sit down, we discuss the symptoms, what’s been going on, any changes that I might need to take, where we’re at, checking to make sure nothing else is going on that might be interfering.

Gabe Howard: I remember a long time ago when Gabe Howard was but a young mental health advocate. I really pushed people only to get mental health care from a psychiatrist. I would always say some form of, well, if you had cancer, you would only go to an oncologist. And, listen, in a perfect world, I still stand by that. We don’t live in a perfect world. And I realized in many places there can be a one, two, three, four month wait, if not longer, to see a psychiatrist. And if you’re in crisis, you need somebody. Now, I’ve realized that licensed nurse practitioners, especially psychiatric nurse practitioners, are really pulling a lot of weight. They’re trained, they’re specialized, and they do a really, really great job. And do I wish that there were a million more psychiatrists? Do I wish that you could see a psychiatrist at the drop of a hat in a moment’s notice? Do I wish that the health care system works differently for people living with schizophrenia? Absolutely. But this isn’t the world that we live in. And it’s important to understand that psychiatric nurse practitioners are a very vital stopgap and have saved a lot a lot of lives. And it’s something that I didn’t give enough credit to. And I imagine that when I said things like you should only see a psychiatrist, it’s possible that somebody who listened to my words might have sat at home and gotten zero care because they were waiting on that psychiatrist. And that’s not good. That’s a very bad idea. You should always get any care that you can find before getting no care, whether that’s from a general practitioner, from an emergency room, from a Wal-Mart clinic. All of these things are much, much better options than getting zero care. And the licensed nurse practitioners are, they’re an excellent resource.

Rachel Star Withers: And to be fair, Gabe, I would say most of the time you are having to get a referral. And I don’t think other doctors are so quick to send you to nurse practitioner versus doctor. I know in the past. They’ve always been like, oh, we’ll write a referral. We’ll find a psychiatrist on your insurance. That’s always how it’s been worded to me. So it’s not just you, I would say, like just the people in the offices, doctors’ offices, they word things a certain way that makes you think, oh, I can only see a psychiatrist.

Gabe Howard: It’s understandable that people would believe this, and I think that’s something that we want this particular show to sort of open up the idea that there is a wide variety of care that a person can get. It’s also possible that when you’re in crisis, when you first need diagnosed, that a psychiatrist is where you should go. But I’m going to use you as an example, Rachel. You were diagnosed, what, 15, 20 years ago? It’s certainly possible that now while you’re in recovery and you’re, you know, month to month or even quarterly to quarterly med checks, etc., don’t need to rise to the level of a psychiatrist. You can be checked out by a nurse practitioner or even a general practitioner, etc. It’s all about finding the best care for you and the stage of your disease process. And I think that’s something that we need to be open to. Let’s make sure that people who are seeing licensed nurse practitioner or psychiatric nurses aren’t thinking that they’re getting bad care, they’re just getting different care. And I think that really needs to be the message. It’s not bad care. It’s different care.

Rachel Star Withers: And all of these nurses that you’re coming in contact with, they have a passion and they have found like who they want to help. Like when you specialize in certain things, whether you want to, like, work with kids, adults, older people, ones who want to work with like pregnant women. So pediatric nurse, you have like geriatric nurse. When my grandparents were both suffering very, very badly from Alzheimer’s, we actually had geriatric nurses coming to the house and one of them was so great with my grandfather. He was mentally gone. And she was like, I remember telling me she had been trained to deal with that, to deal with people in their 80s, 90s who were not themselves anymore. And we were just like really impressed with that.

Gabe Howard: This specific part that I want to zero in on is where you said that, where she said this is what I’ve been specifically trained for, and that’s what we want the audience to understand about psychiatric nurses helping people with schizophrenia lead their best lives, get their best care. That is what they’ve been specifically trained for. And, you know, so often let’s go back to the top of the show where we thought that doctors were best and nurses were second best. But wait a minute. What if you have a doctor who’s been specifically trained in geriatric issues and a nurse who’s been specifically trained in psychiatric issues? Well, now, depending on where you are. Well, the doctor is better. The doctor has to be better, they’re a doctor. But they have no specialized training in schizophrenia or mental health issues. They only have the broad training. So in this way, we need to start thinking, well, now, wait a minute, a nurse with specific psychiatric training and in my mind, and the research holds out, a nurse with specific training in psychiatric disorders is going to be better than a doctor with broad training and nonspecific issues. And this is where we need to start being aware that that just because you’re a doctor doesn’t mean that you’re better than a nurse. Every situation is different. And it’s important to understand that we’re different, right? We have specialized needs. People with mental illness have specialized needs. And I always want to be in a room with a practitioner who understands the illness and who understands my specific needs, because that’s going to give me the best path to wellness. Is that how you feel, Rachel?

Rachel Star Withers: Absolutely, Gabe. And with it, these specialized like that’s something they’ve chosen. That’s something that they’re passionate about. Like usually these people, they specialize for a reason. OK, they are interested in helping people with mental disorders or whatever they specialized in. A little bit later, we talked to Dr. Dilks. That becomes so clear how passionate she is and you will see why she chose psychiatric nursing. And it kind of makes me feel better to know that you have somebody who’s like, I can work with anybody, but I’ve chosen to work with people who are in crisis like you. I don’t know, that’s just really cool to me that someone has decided you are specifically what I want to focus on.

Gabe Howard: So let’s break this down a little bit. You know, psychiatric, mental health nurse, it tends to be an umbrella term. There’s a ton of titles. They vary by state. But let’s talk about the roles and duties of a psychiatric mental health nurse. What do they do?

Rachel Star Withers: So they are going to be the ones that assess you when you come in there. I’m having a situation. They’re going to be figuring out what are the symptoms, what’s going on? They can help diagnose and treat patients, depending on what type of nurse they are. They may be actually prescribing your medication. If you are in a actual facility, where you’re staying inpatient, there’s so many different nurses there that are going to be monitoring you, taking your weight, monitoring your food like just so many different levels, just the basics. And then the brain, the mentally. How is this person responding to these medications? You know, where are they mentally? Their jobs are also to educate family members, which is so important. I remember one of my past mental health nurses actually asking, could my parents come in. If I would feel OK about bringing them in so they could all be on the same page of what needs to happen for Rachel. But of course, they had to ask my permission as I am an adult. Just really incredible. They help the patients set your goals short term, long term. Where do I want to be mentally?

Gabe Howard: And they also have subspecialties, so not only are they focusing on, you know, schizophrenia, psychosis and the things that are important to people living with severe and persistent mental illness, living with schizophrenia, but then they come up with a subspecialty which zeroes in their ability to help even more. And those subspecialties, well, there’s a ton of them, Rachel.

Rachel Star Withers: Yep. Wherever you live, you might not have an office that has all of these wonderful subspecialties, but you’re going to people who specialize in children and teens, adolescent kind of ages. Substance abuse is a big difference. Then let’s say schizophrenia. You have others that their main job is to be the go between, that they’re more of an administrative kind of office type person. That is their job to kind of help you outside of this. Like, once you get out, what happens once you’re not inside the office? Who’s helping you? And I think that’s a really cool one. Like, I kind of thought those people, which I know I’ve come in contact with, they actually know. They have a medical background. They have lots of training to be able to make these connections that are best for you.

Gabe Howard: We’ve heard a lot about what they can do, how they’re trained, how they specialize and why they’re great, but where do they work? Where would we run into or meet up with a psychiatric nurse or a mental health nurse?

Rachel Star Withers: Hospitals. Psychiatric style hospitals, different doctor’s offices across the board, home health care organizations. One that I hadn’t thought about till we were researching, prisons. There are a lot of psychiatric nurses that work in the prison system. Whoo! Wow.

Gabe Howard: And that’s one to really consider, because prisons have sort of become the new asylums. There’s a lot of people with schizophrenia that unfortunately, because of the mental health safety net being so holy, they find themselves in prison. So, thankfully, these nurses are in there because they may well be the only people looking out for the mental health and the well-being of people with schizophrenia who find themselves in prison.

Rachel Star Withers: Another area I wasn’t thinking about would be schools. Schools employ a lot of different nurses. And I do remember my college. You could, like, have free basic checkups and things like that. And then they also had free counseling that I would go to. And looking back, I don’t remember who it was I was talking to. I just assumed it was a psychologist. So looking back, I’m like, oh, well, I’m seeing how many nurses are employed. And I was probably talking to a specialized nurse back those many years ago. And understand like to become one of these people, it’s not just about my two year degree. You have to get multiple licenses. You have to have all these different certifications and so many different hours practicing at different areas. You know, and then you’re looking at some have their masters, some have their doctorate in nursing, which is kind of weird to think. So you’re a doctor of nursing? That concept was a little odd to me because we don’t understand nursing correctly. Like, honestly.

Gabe Howard: Well, yeah. Yeah. At the top of the show, we thought that nurses were doctor assistants, so yeah, I’ve been shocked at the amount of training and again, it just shows you the base misunderstanding that we have about the profession.

Rachel Star Withers: Let’s swing over. What are the other nurses? So we know we’re gonna run into some psychiatric nurses. It’s common with schizophrenia, we’re probably going to, at some point, interact with some E.R. nurses. E.R. nurses are like, incredible. They’re gonna be the ones who have to spot the crisis situation first on what’s happening, especially if you are in the middle of psychosis and you can’t really tell them what’s going on. Your reality is all messed up. I know a lot of times when I kind of I call it being mentally off. But a lot of times when I am in the middle of a psychotic episode, I have really bad headaches. If you were to ask me, Rachel, what’s going on? I’m probably not going to tell you I have a headache. You’re gonna see me trying to find a hammer to pull the nails out because it hurts so bad, it feels like a nail. So I need to get a hammer to pull the nails out. That would be what I would be telling you. And you’re like, what? But I’m trying to tell you, that’s how bad my headache is. Psychotically, though, in my mind, my head literally has nails in it. So imagine being a nurse and you have someone coming in there trying to explain symptoms in those ways. And you have to be smart enough to figure out what is this person saying in a very intense time. Very kind of, I would say, scary. You have family members who might have brought the person in. It’s just amazing, though, that what E.R. nurses have to be able to do and remain calm doing that.

Gabe Howard: Switching gears, just ever so slightly, Rachel, you know, the demand for mental health services has increased significantly in recent years, primarily because more Americans have health insurance because of the Affordable Care Act. From 2014 to 2015, there was a 58% increase in mental health nursing jobs, which required an R.N. and a 17% increase in demand for psychiatric nurse practitioner jobs because of the increased demand for mental health services and the diminishing stigma surrounding mental health conditions. A major void in psychiatric care still exists, and nurses are in great demand to fill these mental health jobs. So nurses are out on the front lines trying to solve a lot of these problems that we have been advocating about for years. They’re also doing large amounts of stuff outside of the E.R. with home health care. And this is amazing to me because we’re sort of back to like America in the 1800’s where people are making house calls.

Rachel Star Withers: Yes, when I hear home health care, I think the nurse is having to come to your house because you’re old or you have like a physical disability, not mental. So I didn’t even know that could be an option for some people. Unfortunately, a lot of us with schizophrenia and other very severe mental disorders, we can be really bad at taking your medication. In fact, as many as 60% of patients with schizophrenia do not take their medication as prescribed, which means they take less, they take more. This is me. I’ve had this happen too. They feel like they’re better. So, OK, I’m going to go off my meds and then they’re not better. And having like a home psychiatric nurse who like travels and checks on different people, they’re able to notice if that person isn’t taking their medication a lot quicker than if I just go to the psychiatrist once a month. This person is the one who is coming regularly and checking on me. And that is just like a really awesome thing. If you’re out there, you’re listening or you’re a loved one of someone with schizophrenia, you might want to look into those different programs, especially if, you know the medication situation is one that you struggle with. Even looking into people who, if you are out of a hospital and having a hard time transitioning into the world, they have different organizations that can help you with that. And part of that is the nurses who can come and check on you.

Gabe Howard: I think it’s also very interesting and probably important to consider the role of home health care during the pandemic. It probably saved a lot of lives and we won’t know the full extent of everything for probably another year or so. But I got to tell you, you know, during times like quarantines, things being closed, people not being able to leave their house, people with schizophrenia, having access to home health care, it did a lot of good for both those folks and no doubt their caregivers. Another nod to just how important this overlooked occupation is.

Rachel Star Withers: And we’ll be right back after this message from our sponsor.

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Rachel Star Withers: And we’re back talking about the roles nurses play in our mental health care.

Gabe Howard: As promised, everybody, I would like to introduce Dr. Tari Dilks. She is a nurse practitioner with a PhD and she’s the president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association. And honestly, this was probably one of the most illuminating and enlightening interviews that we’ve ever done on Inside Schizophrenia. She just makes so many incredible points. And Rachel, I’m jealous that you got to talk to her, and I didn’t. She is very, very cool. And I think all of you are gonna get a lot out of this. Here we go. Here is that interview.

Rachel Star Withers: Today, we are excited to be talking with Dr. Tari Dilks, who is the current president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association (APNA). Thank you so much for talking with us today.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, I so appreciate the invitation, Rachel.

Rachel Star Withers: Now you have a really, really extensive background.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Oh god.

Rachel Star Withers: Let our listeners know a little bit about yourself.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Okey-doke. I am, first of all, a registered nurse. And then I got a little bored with floor nursing and got a master’s degree in counseling psychology. And I’m also a licensed professional counselor. So I began to get a little burned out. So my husband said, go back to school and become a nurse practitioner. And I said, you’re out of your mind. But I did. And I have another master’s degree in nursing. And I went back and got a doctorate in psychiatric nursing practice. And now I teach and have a consulting type business.

Rachel Star Withers: And that’s really awesome to me. What we’ve been talking about on this episode is to like the lay person we hear nurse and honestly, you know, you think assistant to a doctor

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right.

Rachel Star Withers: And you don’t realize like how much goes into nursing and the different levels. It’s incredible. So it’s I love your background is just it’s a lot. It’s way more than most people think. You know, unfortunately, most of us kind of think of Scrubs or E.R. or one of those type

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right.

Rachel Star Withers: Of shows when they think of a nurse.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right. There’s not very many people like me out there, but all of us have a different journey, though. And it you know, my sister’s journey went to the emergency department. My mother’s went to the operating room. I ended up in psych almost by accident and have loved it ever since I found it.

Rachel Star Withers: [00:01:48] So what made you decide exactly to switch over to psychiatric?

Dr. Tari Dilks: So what made me decide to become a psychiatric nurse was an accident in a large part. My mother was an operating room nurse. Then I thought that just doesn’t sound exciting to me. And I ended up going to nursing school up near Amarillo, Texas, at West Texas State. And while I was there, I got a job at a children’s psychiatric hospital and I thought I have died and gone to heaven. This is what nursing ought to be. I was able to do so many things that appealed to me at that time. I played guitar and I could bring my guitar and sing with the kids. I did art and I could bring that playing cards. It was amazing to me how much information you can get from playing cards with people. What sort of selections they make, what their hand-eye coordination is. And so when I came back to Lake Charles, they had a job on a med surg unit, which I kept one day. And then a job opening came up on psych and I had never looked back. That has been such a powerful journey for me and to be able to help people in a very creative way. There’s no algorithm that tells you, say this. Say this. This. It is what’s going on in the moment. It’s a collaboration between you and that particular person.

Rachel Star Withers: You’ve spoken a little bit, but how exactly would you say psychiatric nursing really differs from general nursing?

Dr. Tari Dilks: General nursing, there are skills and certainly psychiatric nurses have skills as well. Starting an IV. Putting down an NG tube, the things that you were talking about earlier, that nursing, you know, on E.R. or Scrubs or one of those shows, they show nurses as very proficient at doing different types of skills. And for me, psychiatric nursing is while it engages the science of nursing. It is all about the art of nursing. It is about the relationship. It’s about the whole person, not just a particular disease or just a particular procedure. It’s about trying to see a person in a very holistic type of context so we can navigate these interpersonal relationships and we can engage with people on a very deep level. And that’s really, to me, the essence of psychiatric nursing. And I think it’s the essence of it for all of us.

Rachel Star Withers: What are the biggest challenges that come along with your profession?

Dr. Tari Dilks: You know, I’ve been in this field a very long time. And when I was started out in it, there was stigma and there is still stigma today, not only against the patients, but also the nurses had a stigma about becoming a psychiatric nurse for some reason. It’s not perceived, at least by the students, as being real nurses. So I talked to an undergraduate nursing class pretty much every semester. And the first question I ask is how many of you are gonna be in psychiatric nurses? And two might out of 60 raise their hands. And then I look at them and I say, all of you are gonna be psychiatric nurses, because what you learn in this class and what you learn about psychiatric nursing permeates throughout the entire profession of nursing. Everybody takes the skills that they learn in undergraduate training as a psychiatric nurse. And you apply it to every patient you see, every family you see. A lot of people are afraid of going into psychiatric nursing because they’ve seen things that show psychiatric patients as being very violent and being out of control and out of touch with reality. And while that is a part of the patient population that we see, it is such a small part of the patient population we see all of us could be psychiatric patients at different times in our lives. All of us get overwhelmed. All of us get depressed. All of us get anxious. And at some point in time, for some people, it just becomes too much. And really, about close to 50 percent of people over the course of their lifetime are going to be affected by a psychiatric illness on either a mild or a major level. And so what I do really, really matters in a very different way. We’ve got a really severe workforce shortage and a lot of that is is how people perceive us.

Rachel Star Withers: How do most patients respond to you?

Dr. Tari Dilks: You know, I have worked a lot over the years on how I talk to people and recognizing that I can’t fix them. And, you know, I think that was something that I came out of nursing school with, was I was here to save the world. Right. Because nurses are great caregivers. They take care of other people. And it took me a while to realize that’s not what my job was. My job is to sit with that person and to help them figure out what they’re going to do, what works in their life, what works for me may not work for them. And I think and that’s what frustrates I get some family nurse practitioners that come in for a post, masters in Psych, and they want algorithms, you know, because they’ve got that for blood pressure. Somebody comes in and they have high blood pressure. This is what I do. Boom, boom, boom. Well, somebody comes in and they’re crying and they’re depressed and they’re in an unhealthy relationship. There is no boom, boom, boom. It’s not a one, two, three. It’s let’s get in there and dig around. And unfortunately, part of our digging involves pain. Oftentimes a lot of psychological pain. And that’s hard for people. And you’ve got to lay the groundwork before you get there. That’s very frustrating for other nurses because like I said, some of them have these algorithms. You do A B C and things get better. Well, this is you might do A and Z and maybe W and then get back to B and C before the patient really begins to respond. So I find that with experience has also come a lot of empathy. People respond well to me. I’ve worked really hard on vocal modulation because that makes a difference when you’re talking to somebody. If they’re getting more and more upset, the lower you talk, the slower you talk, the more you look like you know what you’re talking about, the greater the chance that they’re going to respond to you and begin to calm down.

Rachel Star Withers: What would you like to say to people who are in a crisis when they come in contact with you?

Dr. Tari Dilks: There’s always hope. You know, I had have had patients who’ve come in who’ve been fired by every provider they’ve ever had. And that was part of what led to some of my burnout early on, was that I really felt like they needed to have hope. And it required that I have hope. And sometimes when they didn’t, I needed to have it for them. And I had a patient who really, really, really wanted me to give them permission to commit suicide and asked me, you know, Tari, why do you want me to stay in this kind of pain? And it took me aback. I thought, oh, my goodness, is that what I’m doing? Am I making people stay in pain? And then I realized my job was to have the hope for them, for them to always be able to see that that there was an option, that there was another chance. And that person is alive today. And it’s a wonderful thing.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s amazing. What helped you kind of come out of your burnout?

Dr. Tari Dilks: That requires self-care. And that was another thing that they really did not teach me in nursing school, was that I needed to figure out how to take care of myself. So to do that, I’ve been in therapy a couple of times and I play very hard. I scuba dove. I do art. I try to take time out to enjoy my 10 grandchildren. You know, I try to make sure that I carve out time for me. I love to read. So I always make sure every day I had the opportunity to read and I read junk fiction, you know? But it’s escapist. And I a lot of ways. I love music. So I listen to all the corny music shows that are out there, you know, journaling and all of that gets together with helping me relax. I’m sitting here looking out my window on a lake and I’m watching the wind play on the water. All of those things contribute to self-care. There’s all different types of things that that I try to do to take care of myself. When I do those things, I don’t burn out.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s great advice for anyone. That’s awesome.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Absolutely, absolutely.

Rachel Star Withers: Now, what advice do you have for anyone who is thinking of becoming a psychiatric nurse?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Just do it. It is a wonderfully rewarding profession we’re nurses at heart; we understand how to assess people. We understand the interplay between different disease processes and psychiatric manifestations. Like I said, it’s the most rewarding thing in the world for me. And people that are attracted to this profession should just go into it and learn everything they can, absorb everything they can and develop mentors and find people that they can emulate and learn from. And always keeping in mind that their job again is not to fix the person, it’s to walk with the person on their journey. And I’m not walking in front of them and I’m not walking behind them. I’m walking side by side. Let me help you get through this. Let’s figure it out.

Rachel Star Withers: What resources does the American Psychiatric Nurses Association have for those who are interested in becoming a psychiatric nurse?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, we have several things. We have a student membership that’s only twenty five dollars. There’s the opportunity with that membership to network on a platform we call Member Bridge. There are free education and resources there. There also is a mentoring program there. There is a tip sheet for new nurses and we have a program for people who are becoming new nurses where they can do an educational process that helps them understand the basics of psychiatric nursing. We offer an educational scholarship to students every year for our annual conference. There are 10 undergraduate and 10 graduate scholarships and we’re working on beginning to expand that to where we can offer more. But that was one reason I got very involved with a Pinay several years ago. I got one of those scholarships and was able to go to an annual conference at where was at Long Beach, California. And it was like I was home. Everybody there spoke my language. Everybody there understood. When I talked about a patient issue, what I was talking about, they understood when I talked about somebody having a really manic episode that got out of control, they knew what that was without me having to explain to them. So the resources with a PMA are incredibly deep. There are very many different ways to be a psychiatric nurse.

Dr. Tari Dilks: You don’t have to go into advanced practice nursing. You might go into administration. You might choose to stay and be the front-line R.N. and that be what you want and that be the kind of service that you can offer to others. And that’s perfectly OK. When I was a young nurse, that was a great thing because I didn’t have to worry about additional responsibility when I had young kids. But then as my kids grew, I wanted to grow as well. And so then I started looking for more and more education. And I think APNA just is an incredibly rich resource. And I don’t say that just as the president of the organization, I say it because I came up through the ranks. I met the executive director at that meeting in Long Beach, and he and I developed this incredible relationship over the years. Of just I could call him and ask him any question he could guide me on. I was involved with the state nurse practitioner organization. He helped me figure out the type of executive director that we needed to do. And every single person that’s on staff at APNA is like that. They are there to help you. And it’s a wonderful thing.

Rachel Star Withers: And what does APNA do to support people with mental illness?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, we’re very big into wellness promotion and prevention of mental health problems into what’s called the recovery type attitude, which, you know, a lot of times some people hear the word recovery. They think only addiction. Well, there is a recovery from mental illness as well. And when we start employing those principles, like involving the family, involving the community, then we get better responses. We work with people who are in crisis. We have a psychopharmacology thing every year that assists our nurse practitioners and clinical nurse specialists to prescribe to keep up with the latest information that’s out there on psychopharmacology. We look at a recovery focused person centered. We talk about cultural awareness, trauma informed care. I’m doing some consulting work in an addictions area now and it amazes me, and it shouldn’t, but it amazes me the number of people with addictive issues who have significant childhood trauma and how that has contributed to how they’ve gotten into their addiction. We have consumers that give us input in our education and our conferences. We try to provide the resources and support the members to advocate for their patients. You know, I was at a meeting where they talked about that all school shooters were mentally ill.

Dr. Tari Dilks: And I had to stand up and say, that’s not true. People with mental illness are much more likely to be shot than they are to shoot people. But a lot of times the press picks up on, well, they got treated for depression way back when. Or they should have been treated for depression or whatever. And it has nothing to do with why they chose to shoot up the school or whatever area they’re in. We do everything we can to build up the psychiatric nursing workforce and we need more. We need to make this type of nursing profession important to young nurses and get them to see the incredible growth that can happen with you, with your patients, with the families, with everybody that’s involved with that particular patient. We provide education to all nurses. We’ve opened up some of our courses, especially during the pandemic. To anybody, any nurse that wants to get on there and take it, there is a technique called motivational interviewing that is a way to talk to and partner with a patient in their road to hell. And any nurse can take that now for free.

Rachel Star Withers: Oh, wow.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Yeah. Those are the types of things that a APNA tries to do. They try to be nimble, they try to be responsive and provide resources that all nurses need, really.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s absolutely awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Dilks. Was there anything that you wanted to promote?

Dr. Tari Dilks: I want to promote getting rid of stigma. That’s what I would like to promote. Is that the people who are mentally ill are you and me. They are just exactly like you and me. They are just at a point in their life where their survival skills, their ability to handle things are down low. And so treat folks, everybody with kindness, treat them with compassion. And please, if you’re a nurse listening to this and psych appeals to you at all, please come into the profession. We need everybody.

Rachel Star Withers: Awesome. Thank you so much for speaking with us today, Dr. Dilks. I absolutely love this interview. And I personally learned so much.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Oh, great.

Rachel Star Withers: This has been very wonderful speaking with you today.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, Rachel, I so appreciate the opportunity to do this. Like I said, it’s a passion of mine. I really enjoy trying to get people to see things a little bit differently.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, Tari was very, very cool. Thank you, Tari, for taking time away from your duties as the president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association. You were there, Rachel, what were your initial thoughts going into the interview vs. your thoughts when the interview was over?

Rachel Star Withers: Going in, I thought it was gonna be pretty boring, just that, you know,

Gabe Howard: It’s honest, I understand. I understand.

Rachel Star Withers: I mean, you know, not going to be that exciting and it for me was the opposite. I think what stands out most about her is her passion. She loves what she does. And she is incredibly passionate about it. And that was just the coolest thing to me. Like, she got me passionate about psychiatric nursing. She just sounded so excited about what she does and what she’s been doing for many, many years and has went to so much schooling in. And obviously, she’s very knowledgeable.

Gabe Howard: She said so many things that I didn’t think about, Rachel, what was the thing that just really blew your mind? That you thought, wow?

Rachel Star Withers: The coolest thing I think overall for me is how much schooling, how much work goes in to being that person. To being that person that you come in contact with. I’ve never in the past, really, I don’t want to say I don’t respect those people because I did. But I respect them on a much deeper level now. And that is like so cool. When Dr. Dilks was talking, I was thinking like, oh, my gosh, I want to be your patient so bad because I was blown away. Like, you are so knowledgeable, like I want you treating me. You probably know so much. And that’s just really cool to think. The people you are coming in contact with have put in so much work to get to come in contact with you. That’s just amazing to me.

Gabe Howard: The most shocking thing to me was just how much on the frontlines the nurses are. And I want to give a big, big thank you to Dr. Dilks for really just explaining that every nurse is a psychiatric nurse because they come into contact with people first. And that was a big aha moment for me, because she’s right. People with severe and persistent mental illness, people with schizophrenia, we do often talk to nurses before we get to doctors. So if they’re on their game and they notice that something’s off, they can really point us in the right direction. Because, again, we often think of the nurses as the people standing between us and the medical care that we need, rather than the nurses assisting in us getting the medical care that they need. They really can be a great patient advocate.

Rachel Star Withers: I totally agree, Gabe. An absolute thank you to all of those who work in nursing, who come in contact with anyone who has a mental disorder, who comes in contact with the family, the friends of people who have a mental disorder, because yeah, it takes a village.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, any encouraging words for people living with schizophrenia?

Rachel Star Withers: Yes. To my people with schizophrenia and the loved ones and whatnot, educate yourself on the people who are treating you. For one, it’s going to really help to build trust between you and that person. When you’re sitting in that office and there’s all these like certificates and degrees on the wall, you might want to read a few of them. I’ll be honest, I usually don’t read them. Because that’s going to help, you know. Who is this person who’s talking to me? They’re not just some random person. And to all of my nurses out there and mental health care workers, I encourage you to tell your patients your basic credentials, kind of give them some reassurance, you know, oh, I’m this type of nurse. I’ve studied blah, blah, blah for so many years. I just think that’s going to build that trust between you two.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, that is excellent advice and along the lines of excellent advice, wherever you download his podcast, please subscribe. Please leave us a review. Rank us, say nice things about us. Rachel and I like hearing nice things. When you share us on social media, use your words and tell people why they should listen. If you’re involved in any sort of schizophrenic support group, please share this podcast with them. We want to go as far and wide as humanly possible. We will see everybody next time on Inside Schizophrenia.

Announcer: Inside Schizophrenia is presented by PsychCentral.com, America’s largest and longest operating independent mental health website. Your host, Rachel Star Withers, can be found online at RachelStarLive.com. Co-host Gabe Howard can be found online at gabehoward.com. For questions, or to provide feedback, please e-mail talkback@PsychCentral.com. The official website for Inside Schizophrenia is PsychCentral.com/IS. Thank you for listening, and please, share widely.

Inside Schizophrenia: The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment syndicated from

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Inside Schizophrenia: The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment

Some of the professionals that work most with helping people with schizophrenia are nurses. There are so many types with different skill sets. Host Rachel Star Withers and Co-host Gabe Howards learn who these often overlooked healthcare workers are.

Dr. Tari Dilks, Professor and President of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association, joins with insight on what goes into being a psychiatric nurse. 

Highlights in “The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment” Episode

[01:14] Doctor sidekicks?

[04:00] The types of nurses

[06:40] Nurse Practitioners

[11:00] Nurses specialties

[13:00] Psychiatric Nursing

[17:00] Where do psychiatric nurses work?

[21:00] Home Health Care

[24:10] Guest Interview with Dr. Tari Dilks

[26:17] How psychiatric nursing is different than other types

[34:00] Be the hope for someone

[45:16] Appreciation for what goes into being a nurse

About Our Guest

Sattaria ‘Tari’ Dilks, DNP, APRN, PMHNP-BC, FAANP

Professor and Co-coordinator of Graduate Nursing, College of Nursing and Health Professions, McNeese State University

Dr. Tari Dilks is a professor of nursing at McNeese State University and co-coordinator of McNeese’s Master of Science in Nursing programs. She is also director of the psychiatric/mental health track for the Intercollegiate Consortium for a Master of Science in Nursing partnership involving McNeese, Nicholls State University, Southeastern Louisiana University and the University of Louisiana at Lafayette.

 Currently the President of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association, she consistently advocates for awareness of psychiatric-mental health issues. She the past chair of the APNA Practice Council and was the 2017 recipient of the APNA Award for Excellence in Education.

Dilks obtained her Doctorate of Nursing Practice in psychiatric mental health advanced practice nursing from the University of Tennessee, her Master of Science in Nursing degree and her Master of Arts degree in psychology both from McNeese and her Bachelor of Science in Nursing degree from West Texas State University. She is a family nurse practitioner, psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner and a licensed professional counselor in Louisiana.

She has also been recognized for her leadership by the American Association of Nurse Practitioners with the Louisiana Award for Nurse Practitioner Excellence and her induction into the academy as a Fellow.

www.apna.org

APNA Report: Expanding Mental Health Care Services in America: The Pivotal Role of Psychiatric-Mental Health Nurses

Computer Generated Transcript of “The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia, a look in to better understanding and living well with schizophrenia. Hosted by renowned advocate and influencer Rachel Star Withers and featuring Gabe Howard.

Sponsor: Listeners, could a change in your schizophrenia treatment plan make a difference?  There are options out there you might not know about. Visit OnceMonthlyDifference.com to find out more about once monthly injections for adults with schizophrenia.

Rachel Star Withers: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia, a Psych Central podcast. I’m Rachel Star Withers here with my co-host, Gabe Howard. And this episode, we’re gonna be talking about the roles nurses play in our mental health care.

Gabe Howard: It’s weird to think that nursing has anything to do with schizophrenia, when you suggested the topic was like what? How are we going to get an hour out of this?

Rachel Star Withers: I agree. It really blew my mind. Learning what nurses do has actually been incredible because there is so much that goes into nursing.

Gabe Howard: Sincerely, before we started this, I thought that nurses were Dr. Sidekick’s. I want to be completely honest. I thought that nurses were doctor assistants. Hard stop. That’s it. There was nothing more that they did. The end. And wow, was I wrong.

Rachel Star Withers: If you look at like different TV shows, Scrubs, ER, like when you’re watching them, it’s very segregated. The nurses and the doctors and you just kind of get that idea that they’re two separate things, you know, and obviously doctors what you want. That’s the vibe you get from TV if you don’t know who these people are.

Gabe Howard: It’s very interesting to me, as much as we talk about how. Don’t learn about schizophrenia and mental illness from pop culture and media representations. We’ve had to have said that at least a dozen times over the course of Inside Schizophrenia. And yet here we are learning about the nursing industry from their portrayal on media and pop culture. And it just goes to show you that it’s easy to fall into this trap, that what we’re seeing on TV is somehow some sort of accurate portrayal when in actuality it’s not, it’s fictitious at best.

Rachel Star Withers: All I’m going to say is thank you to all of our wonderful nurses. Obviously we have the pandemic and stuff going on. So thankfully, a lot of people that don’t get seen have been pushed into the spotlight and all the work they’re doing. So any level of nursing, medical, health care. Thank you so much right now, because all those people are giving more than they should have to.

Gabe Howard: I completely agree. Thank you so much for all that you do, and nurses are as a man with red hair, meaning I grew up as a redhead. I’m allowed to say this. The nurses seem to be the red headed stepchildren of the medical industry. They’re so necessary and they do so much. And yet they’re often ignored. And we want to talk about specifically how nurses are helping people with schizophrenia, because, as it turns out, they’re doing an incredible amount of work and even us. Rachel, before we started this show, we’re like, wow. I mean, what do they do? Like what? They check us in when we get there?

Rachel Star Withers: Take my blood pressure?

Gabe Howard: Yeah. They check our blood pressure before, you know, the real person comes in to help us. And that’s really the crux of this conversation. Coming up later, we have a wonderful guest, a woman who has been a nurse for a long time and has done a lot of work. And she’s a psychiatric nurse. And I am excited to have everybody listen to her because, I mean, frankly, she really set us straight.

Rachel Star Withers: Oh, yeah.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, there are different types of nurses, and I don’t mean like psychiatric nurse versus surgical nurse. I mean, like there’s different educational levels. Who have access to do different things. And I was kind of surprised by that as well, because I, I really sincerely thought it was one size fits all.

Rachel Star Withers: So the three basic types. OK. Three general basic types. We have an RN, a Registered Nurse. That’s kind of what I would say most of us think of in our head when we picture a nurse is what is the traditional registered nurse. A lot of times, you know, you go to the hospital, that’s who you are interacting with. They do like the vitals. So you are talking to that person kind of on that level. They can, as we’ll get into, do diagnoses, different assessments, like they play a major part because a lot of times the doctor will only see you for, like, you know, five minutes. But it’s the nurse who does all the work of, hey, this is what I think’s going on, then pulls the doctor in. Then you have licensed practical nurse or vocational nurse, depending on what country or state you’re in, and they are under the supervision of the nurses. I don’t want to say nursing assistant, but kind of. It’s the next level down. But they do a lot of important stuff also. And then there is the CNA, Certified Nursing Assistant. And that’s I hear the most, I guess, with people. I’ll have people talk about what our jobs are. I hear oh, I’m a CNA. I hear that all the time. And I really didn’t know what that meant. But there are ones who do like routine and daily tasks. CND are usually the ones you get to talk to the most. That kind of interact with you, that kind of help you form, like, I don’t want to say emotional bond, ’cause it sounds a little creepy in the medical sense, but, no, that, like the ones you’re like talking to. You know, more one on one. So these are like the three big ones.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that, of course, was most impressive in all of this is that no matter what kind of a nurse you see there on the front lines, it means they have a lot of patient interaction. So when we talk about how nurses help people with schizophrenia, they might be the first medical person that somebody who is in crisis sees. When you walk into the emergency room, the first person that you see is not a doctor. It’s not a psychiatrist. It’s a nurse of some sort. Nurses often see people with schizophrenia and start the process towards diagnosis long before you reach a doctor. So in that way, nurses are extraordinarily vital to noticing the symptoms of schizophrenia and reporting them back up the chain. And I don’t think many people really realize this and that. And that alone shows you the importance of nurses in the treatment of schizophrenia and other mental health issues. Nurses don’t just change bedpans. They’re really doing a lot to keep people with schizophrenia safe. And I was very surprised by that. Rachel, I understand that you’re not as surprised as me because you see a nurse practitioner for your schizophrenia treatment, which I did not know and blew me away.

Rachel Star Withers: Yes. So what that is, though, if you’re listening at home, you’re thinking, Rachel, didn’t go over nurse practitioners as one of her three things. So there are advanced nurses that they are highly trained. Lots and lots of college and lots of certifications having to constantly keep up on what’s going on. These are the people that they can diagnose you. They could actually prescribe medicine. Where I go twice a month for the past, like eight, 10 years is a center. It’s a mental health center. And I have never met the psychiatrist there. I think there’s one or two on staff. But they are over these nurses. So I’ve always met with, like a different nurse over the years. And I assumed I was meeting with the doctor, really. Just like in the past where I met with psychiatrist. You sit down, we discuss the symptoms, what’s been going on, any changes that I might need to take, where we’re at, checking to make sure nothing else is going on that might be interfering.

Gabe Howard: I remember a long time ago when Gabe Howard was but a young mental health advocate. I really pushed people only to get mental health care from a psychiatrist. I would always say some form of, well, if you had cancer, you would only go to an oncologist. And, listen, in a perfect world, I still stand by that. We don’t live in a perfect world. And I realized in many places there can be a one, two, three, four month wait, if not longer, to see a psychiatrist. And if you’re in crisis, you need somebody. Now, I’ve realized that licensed nurse practitioners, especially psychiatric nurse practitioners, are really pulling a lot of weight. They’re trained, they’re specialized, and they do a really, really great job. And do I wish that there were a million more psychiatrists? Do I wish that you could see a psychiatrist at the drop of a hat in a moment’s notice? Do I wish that the health care system works differently for people living with schizophrenia? Absolutely. But this isn’t the world that we live in. And it’s important to understand that psychiatric nurse practitioners are a very vital stopgap and have saved a lot a lot of lives. And it’s something that I didn’t give enough credit to. And I imagine that when I said things like you should only see a psychiatrist, it’s possible that somebody who listened to my words might have sat at home and gotten zero care because they were waiting on that psychiatrist. And that’s not good. That’s a very bad idea. You should always get any care that you can find before getting no care, whether that’s from a general practitioner, from an emergency room, from a Wal-Mart clinic. All of these things are much, much better options than getting zero care. And the licensed nurse practitioners are, they’re an excellent resource.

Rachel Star Withers: And to be fair, Gabe, I would say most of the time you are having to get a referral. And I don’t think other doctors are so quick to send you to nurse practitioner versus doctor. I know in the past. They’ve always been like, oh, we’ll write a referral. We’ll find a psychiatrist on your insurance. That’s always how it’s been worded to me. So it’s not just you, I would say, like just the people in the offices, doctors’ offices, they word things a certain way that makes you think, oh, I can only see a psychiatrist.

Gabe Howard: It’s understandable that people would believe this, and I think that’s something that we want this particular show to sort of open up the idea that there is a wide variety of care that a person can get. It’s also possible that when you’re in crisis, when you first need diagnosed, that a psychiatrist is where you should go. But I’m going to use you as an example, Rachel. You were diagnosed, what, 15, 20 years ago? It’s certainly possible that now while you’re in recovery and you’re, you know, month to month or even quarterly to quarterly med checks, etc., don’t need to rise to the level of a psychiatrist. You can be checked out by a nurse practitioner or even a general practitioner, etc. It’s all about finding the best care for you and the stage of your disease process. And I think that’s something that we need to be open to. Let’s make sure that people who are seeing licensed nurse practitioner or psychiatric nurses aren’t thinking that they’re getting bad care, they’re just getting different care. And I think that really needs to be the message. It’s not bad care. It’s different care.

Rachel Star Withers: And all of these nurses that you’re coming in contact with, they have a passion and they have found like who they want to help. Like when you specialize in certain things, whether you want to, like, work with kids, adults, older people, ones who want to work with like pregnant women. So pediatric nurse, you have like geriatric nurse. When my grandparents were both suffering very, very badly from Alzheimer’s, we actually had geriatric nurses coming to the house and one of them was so great with my grandfather. He was mentally gone. And she was like, I remember telling me she had been trained to deal with that, to deal with people in their 80s, 90s who were not themselves anymore. And we were just like really impressed with that.

Gabe Howard: This specific part that I want to zero in on is where you said that, where she said this is what I’ve been specifically trained for, and that’s what we want the audience to understand about psychiatric nurses helping people with schizophrenia lead their best lives, get their best care. That is what they’ve been specifically trained for. And, you know, so often let’s go back to the top of the show where we thought that doctors were best and nurses were second best. But wait a minute. What if you have a doctor who’s been specifically trained in geriatric issues and a nurse who’s been specifically trained in psychiatric issues? Well, now, depending on where you are. Well, the doctor is better. The doctor has to be better, they’re a doctor. But they have no specialized training in schizophrenia or mental health issues. They only have the broad training. So in this way, we need to start thinking, well, now, wait a minute, a nurse with specific psychiatric training and in my mind, and the research holds out, a nurse with specific training in psychiatric disorders is going to be better than a doctor with broad training and nonspecific issues. And this is where we need to start being aware that that just because you’re a doctor doesn’t mean that you’re better than a nurse. Every situation is different. And it’s important to understand that we’re different, right? We have specialized needs. People with mental illness have specialized needs. And I always want to be in a room with a practitioner who understands the illness and who understands my specific needs, because that’s going to give me the best path to wellness. Is that how you feel, Rachel?

Rachel Star Withers: Absolutely, Gabe. And with it, these specialized like that’s something they’ve chosen. That’s something that they’re passionate about. Like usually these people, they specialize for a reason. OK, they are interested in helping people with mental disorders or whatever they specialized in. A little bit later, we talked to Dr. Dilks. That becomes so clear how passionate she is and you will see why she chose psychiatric nursing. And it kind of makes me feel better to know that you have somebody who’s like, I can work with anybody, but I’ve chosen to work with people who are in crisis like you. I don’t know, that’s just really cool to me that someone has decided you are specifically what I want to focus on.

Gabe Howard: So let’s break this down a little bit. You know, psychiatric, mental health nurse, it tends to be an umbrella term. There’s a ton of titles. They vary by state. But let’s talk about the roles and duties of a psychiatric mental health nurse. What do they do?

Rachel Star Withers: So they are going to be the ones that assess you when you come in there. I’m having a situation. They’re going to be figuring out what are the symptoms, what’s going on? They can help diagnose and treat patients, depending on what type of nurse they are. They may be actually prescribing your medication. If you are in a actual facility, where you’re staying inpatient, there’s so many different nurses there that are going to be monitoring you, taking your weight, monitoring your food like just so many different levels, just the basics. And then the brain, the mentally. How is this person responding to these medications? You know, where are they mentally? Their jobs are also to educate family members, which is so important. I remember one of my past mental health nurses actually asking, could my parents come in. If I would feel OK about bringing them in so they could all be on the same page of what needs to happen for Rachel. But of course, they had to ask my permission as I am an adult. Just really incredible. They help the patients set your goals short term, long term. Where do I want to be mentally?

Gabe Howard: And they also have subspecialties, so not only are they focusing on, you know, schizophrenia, psychosis and the things that are important to people living with severe and persistent mental illness, living with schizophrenia, but then they come up with a subspecialty which zeroes in their ability to help even more. And those subspecialties, well, there’s a ton of them, Rachel.

Rachel Star Withers: Yep. Wherever you live, you might not have an office that has all of these wonderful subspecialties, but you’re going to people who specialize in children and teens, adolescent kind of ages. Substance abuse is a big difference. Then let’s say schizophrenia. You have others that their main job is to be the go between, that they’re more of an administrative kind of office type person. That is their job to kind of help you outside of this. Like, once you get out, what happens once you’re not inside the office? Who’s helping you? And I think that’s a really cool one. Like, I kind of thought those people, which I know I’ve come in contact with, they actually know. They have a medical background. They have lots of training to be able to make these connections that are best for you.

Gabe Howard: We’ve heard a lot about what they can do, how they’re trained, how they specialize and why they’re great, but where do they work? Where would we run into or meet up with a psychiatric nurse or a mental health nurse?

Rachel Star Withers: Hospitals. Psychiatric style hospitals, different doctor’s offices across the board, home health care organizations. One that I hadn’t thought about till we were researching, prisons. There are a lot of psychiatric nurses that work in the prison system. Whoo! Wow.

Gabe Howard: And that’s one to really consider, because prisons have sort of become the new asylums. There’s a lot of people with schizophrenia that unfortunately, because of the mental health safety net being so holy, they find themselves in prison. So, thankfully, these nurses are in there because they may well be the only people looking out for the mental health and the well-being of people with schizophrenia who find themselves in prison.

Rachel Star Withers: Another area I wasn’t thinking about would be schools. Schools employ a lot of different nurses. And I do remember my college. You could, like, have free basic checkups and things like that. And then they also had free counseling that I would go to. And looking back, I don’t remember who it was I was talking to. I just assumed it was a psychologist. So looking back, I’m like, oh, well, I’m seeing how many nurses are employed. And I was probably talking to a specialized nurse back those many years ago. And understand like to become one of these people, it’s not just about my two year degree. You have to get multiple licenses. You have to have all these different certifications and so many different hours practicing at different areas. You know, and then you’re looking at some have their masters, some have their doctorate in nursing, which is kind of weird to think. So you’re a doctor of nursing? That concept was a little odd to me because we don’t understand nursing correctly. Like, honestly.

Gabe Howard: Well, yeah. Yeah. At the top of the show, we thought that nurses were doctor assistants, so yeah, I’ve been shocked at the amount of training and again, it just shows you the base misunderstanding that we have about the profession.

Rachel Star Withers: Let’s swing over. What are the other nurses? So we know we’re gonna run into some psychiatric nurses. It’s common with schizophrenia, we’re probably going to, at some point, interact with some E.R. nurses. E.R. nurses are like, incredible. They’re gonna be the ones who have to spot the crisis situation first on what’s happening, especially if you are in the middle of psychosis and you can’t really tell them what’s going on. Your reality is all messed up. I know a lot of times when I kind of I call it being mentally off. But a lot of times when I am in the middle of a psychotic episode, I have really bad headaches. If you were to ask me, Rachel, what’s going on? I’m probably not going to tell you I have a headache. You’re gonna see me trying to find a hammer to pull the nails out because it hurts so bad, it feels like a nail. So I need to get a hammer to pull the nails out. That would be what I would be telling you. And you’re like, what? But I’m trying to tell you, that’s how bad my headache is. Psychotically, though, in my mind, my head literally has nails in it. So imagine being a nurse and you have someone coming in there trying to explain symptoms in those ways. And you have to be smart enough to figure out what is this person saying in a very intense time. Very kind of, I would say, scary. You have family members who might have brought the person in. It’s just amazing, though, that what E.R. nurses have to be able to do and remain calm doing that.

Gabe Howard: Switching gears, just ever so slightly, Rachel, you know, the demand for mental health services has increased significantly in recent years, primarily because more Americans have health insurance because of the Affordable Care Act. From 2014 to 2015, there was a 58% increase in mental health nursing jobs, which required an R.N. and a 17% increase in demand for psychiatric nurse practitioner jobs because of the increased demand for mental health services and the diminishing stigma surrounding mental health conditions. A major void in psychiatric care still exists, and nurses are in great demand to fill these mental health jobs. So nurses are out on the front lines trying to solve a lot of these problems that we have been advocating about for years. They’re also doing large amounts of stuff outside of the E.R. with home health care. And this is amazing to me because we’re sort of back to like America in the 1800’s where people are making house calls.

Rachel Star Withers: Yes, when I hear home health care, I think the nurse is having to come to your house because you’re old or you have like a physical disability, not mental. So I didn’t even know that could be an option for some people. Unfortunately, a lot of us with schizophrenia and other very severe mental disorders, we can be really bad at taking your medication. In fact, as many as 60% of patients with schizophrenia do not take their medication as prescribed, which means they take less, they take more. This is me. I’ve had this happen too. They feel like they’re better. So, OK, I’m going to go off my meds and then they’re not better. And having like a home psychiatric nurse who like travels and checks on different people, they’re able to notice if that person isn’t taking their medication a lot quicker than if I just go to the psychiatrist once a month. This person is the one who is coming regularly and checking on me. And that is just like a really awesome thing. If you’re out there, you’re listening or you’re a loved one of someone with schizophrenia, you might want to look into those different programs, especially if, you know the medication situation is one that you struggle with. Even looking into people who, if you are out of a hospital and having a hard time transitioning into the world, they have different organizations that can help you with that. And part of that is the nurses who can come and check on you.

Gabe Howard: I think it’s also very interesting and probably important to consider the role of home health care during the pandemic. It probably saved a lot of lives and we won’t know the full extent of everything for probably another year or so. But I got to tell you, you know, during times like quarantines, things being closed, people not being able to leave their house, people with schizophrenia, having access to home health care, it did a lot of good for both those folks and no doubt their caregivers. Another nod to just how important this overlooked occupation is.

Rachel Star Withers: And we’ll be right back after this message from our sponsor.

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Rachel Star Withers: And we’re back talking about the roles nurses play in our mental health care.

Gabe Howard: As promised, everybody, I would like to introduce Dr. Tari Dilks. She is a nurse practitioner with a PhD and she’s the president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association. And honestly, this was probably one of the most illuminating and enlightening interviews that we’ve ever done on Inside Schizophrenia. She just makes so many incredible points. And Rachel, I’m jealous that you got to talk to her, and I didn’t. She is very, very cool. And I think all of you are gonna get a lot out of this. Here we go. Here is that interview.

Rachel Star Withers: Today, we are excited to be talking with Dr. Tari Dilks, who is the current president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association (APNA). Thank you so much for talking with us today.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, I so appreciate the invitation, Rachel.

Rachel Star Withers: Now you have a really, really extensive background.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Oh god.

Rachel Star Withers: Let our listeners know a little bit about yourself.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Okey-doke. I am, first of all, a registered nurse. And then I got a little bored with floor nursing and got a master’s degree in counseling psychology. And I’m also a licensed professional counselor. So I began to get a little burned out. So my husband said, go back to school and become a nurse practitioner. And I said, you’re out of your mind. But I did. And I have another master’s degree in nursing. And I went back and got a doctorate in psychiatric nursing practice. And now I teach and have a consulting type business.

Rachel Star Withers: And that’s really awesome to me. What we’ve been talking about on this episode is to like the lay person we hear nurse and honestly, you know, you think assistant to a doctor

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right.

Rachel Star Withers: And you don’t realize like how much goes into nursing and the different levels. It’s incredible. So it’s I love your background is just it’s a lot. It’s way more than most people think. You know, unfortunately, most of us kind of think of Scrubs or E.R. or one of those type

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right.

Rachel Star Withers: Of shows when they think of a nurse.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right. There’s not very many people like me out there, but all of us have a different journey, though. And it you know, my sister’s journey went to the emergency department. My mother’s went to the operating room. I ended up in psych almost by accident and have loved it ever since I found it.

Rachel Star Withers: [00:01:48] So what made you decide exactly to switch over to psychiatric?

Dr. Tari Dilks: So what made me decide to become a psychiatric nurse was an accident in a large part. My mother was an operating room nurse. Then I thought that just doesn’t sound exciting to me. And I ended up going to nursing school up near Amarillo, Texas, at West Texas State. And while I was there, I got a job at a children’s psychiatric hospital and I thought I have died and gone to heaven. This is what nursing ought to be. I was able to do so many things that appealed to me at that time. I played guitar and I could bring my guitar and sing with the kids. I did art and I could bring that playing cards. It was amazing to me how much information you can get from playing cards with people. What sort of selections they make, what their hand-eye coordination is. And so when I came back to Lake Charles, they had a job on a med surg unit, which I kept one day. And then a job opening came up on psych and I had never looked back. That has been such a powerful journey for me and to be able to help people in a very creative way. There’s no algorithm that tells you, say this. Say this. This. It is what’s going on in the moment. It’s a collaboration between you and that particular person.

Rachel Star Withers: You’ve spoken a little bit, but how exactly would you say psychiatric nursing really differs from general nursing?

Dr. Tari Dilks: General nursing, there are skills and certainly psychiatric nurses have skills as well. Starting an IV. Putting down an NG tube, the things that you were talking about earlier, that nursing, you know, on E.R. or Scrubs or one of those shows, they show nurses as very proficient at doing different types of skills. And for me, psychiatric nursing is while it engages the science of nursing. It is all about the art of nursing. It is about the relationship. It’s about the whole person, not just a particular disease or just a particular procedure. It’s about trying to see a person in a very holistic type of context so we can navigate these interpersonal relationships and we can engage with people on a very deep level. And that’s really, to me, the essence of psychiatric nursing. And I think it’s the essence of it for all of us.

Rachel Star Withers: What are the biggest challenges that come along with your profession?

Dr. Tari Dilks: You know, I’ve been in this field a very long time. And when I was started out in it, there was stigma and there is still stigma today, not only against the patients, but also the nurses had a stigma about becoming a psychiatric nurse for some reason. It’s not perceived, at least by the students, as being real nurses. So I talked to an undergraduate nursing class pretty much every semester. And the first question I ask is how many of you are gonna be in psychiatric nurses? And two might out of 60 raise their hands. And then I look at them and I say, all of you are gonna be psychiatric nurses, because what you learn in this class and what you learn about psychiatric nursing permeates throughout the entire profession of nursing. Everybody takes the skills that they learn in undergraduate training as a psychiatric nurse. And you apply it to every patient you see, every family you see. A lot of people are afraid of going into psychiatric nursing because they’ve seen things that show psychiatric patients as being very violent and being out of control and out of touch with reality. And while that is a part of the patient population that we see, it is such a small part of the patient population we see all of us could be psychiatric patients at different times in our lives. All of us get overwhelmed. All of us get depressed. All of us get anxious. And at some point in time, for some people, it just becomes too much. And really, about close to 50 percent of people over the course of their lifetime are going to be affected by a psychiatric illness on either a mild or a major level. And so what I do really, really matters in a very different way. We’ve got a really severe workforce shortage and a lot of that is is how people perceive us.

Rachel Star Withers: How do most patients respond to you?

Dr. Tari Dilks: You know, I have worked a lot over the years on how I talk to people and recognizing that I can’t fix them. And, you know, I think that was something that I came out of nursing school with, was I was here to save the world. Right. Because nurses are great caregivers. They take care of other people. And it took me a while to realize that’s not what my job was. My job is to sit with that person and to help them figure out what they’re going to do, what works in their life, what works for me may not work for them. And I think and that’s what frustrates I get some family nurse practitioners that come in for a post, masters in Psych, and they want algorithms, you know, because they’ve got that for blood pressure. Somebody comes in and they have high blood pressure. This is what I do. Boom, boom, boom. Well, somebody comes in and they’re crying and they’re depressed and they’re in an unhealthy relationship. There is no boom, boom, boom. It’s not a one, two, three. It’s let’s get in there and dig around. And unfortunately, part of our digging involves pain. Oftentimes a lot of psychological pain. And that’s hard for people. And you’ve got to lay the groundwork before you get there. That’s very frustrating for other nurses because like I said, some of them have these algorithms. You do A B C and things get better. Well, this is you might do A and Z and maybe W and then get back to B and C before the patient really begins to respond. So I find that with experience has also come a lot of empathy. People respond well to me. I’ve worked really hard on vocal modulation because that makes a difference when you’re talking to somebody. If they’re getting more and more upset, the lower you talk, the slower you talk, the more you look like you know what you’re talking about, the greater the chance that they’re going to respond to you and begin to calm down.

Rachel Star Withers: What would you like to say to people who are in a crisis when they come in contact with you?

Dr. Tari Dilks: There’s always hope. You know, I had have had patients who’ve come in who’ve been fired by every provider they’ve ever had. And that was part of what led to some of my burnout early on, was that I really felt like they needed to have hope. And it required that I have hope. And sometimes when they didn’t, I needed to have it for them. And I had a patient who really, really, really wanted me to give them permission to commit suicide and asked me, you know, Tari, why do you want me to stay in this kind of pain? And it took me aback. I thought, oh, my goodness, is that what I’m doing? Am I making people stay in pain? And then I realized my job was to have the hope for them, for them to always be able to see that that there was an option, that there was another chance. And that person is alive today. And it’s a wonderful thing.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s amazing. What helped you kind of come out of your burnout?

Dr. Tari Dilks: That requires self-care. And that was another thing that they really did not teach me in nursing school, was that I needed to figure out how to take care of myself. So to do that, I’ve been in therapy a couple of times and I play very hard. I scuba dove. I do art. I try to take time out to enjoy my 10 grandchildren. You know, I try to make sure that I carve out time for me. I love to read. So I always make sure every day I had the opportunity to read and I read junk fiction, you know? But it’s escapist. And I a lot of ways. I love music. So I listen to all the corny music shows that are out there, you know, journaling and all of that gets together with helping me relax. I’m sitting here looking out my window on a lake and I’m watching the wind play on the water. All of those things contribute to self-care. There’s all different types of things that that I try to do to take care of myself. When I do those things, I don’t burn out.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s great advice for anyone. That’s awesome.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Absolutely, absolutely.

Rachel Star Withers: Now, what advice do you have for anyone who is thinking of becoming a psychiatric nurse?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Just do it. It is a wonderfully rewarding profession we’re nurses at heart; we understand how to assess people. We understand the interplay between different disease processes and psychiatric manifestations. Like I said, it’s the most rewarding thing in the world for me. And people that are attracted to this profession should just go into it and learn everything they can, absorb everything they can and develop mentors and find people that they can emulate and learn from. And always keeping in mind that their job again is not to fix the person, it’s to walk with the person on their journey. And I’m not walking in front of them and I’m not walking behind them. I’m walking side by side. Let me help you get through this. Let’s figure it out.

Rachel Star Withers: What resources does the American Psychiatric Nurses Association have for those who are interested in becoming a psychiatric nurse?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, we have several things. We have a student membership that’s only twenty five dollars. There’s the opportunity with that membership to network on a platform we call Member Bridge. There are free education and resources there. There also is a mentoring program there. There is a tip sheet for new nurses and we have a program for people who are becoming new nurses where they can do an educational process that helps them understand the basics of psychiatric nursing. We offer an educational scholarship to students every year for our annual conference. There are 10 undergraduate and 10 graduate scholarships and we’re working on beginning to expand that to where we can offer more. But that was one reason I got very involved with a Pinay several years ago. I got one of those scholarships and was able to go to an annual conference at where was at Long Beach, California. And it was like I was home. Everybody there spoke my language. Everybody there understood. When I talked about a patient issue, what I was talking about, they understood when I talked about somebody having a really manic episode that got out of control, they knew what that was without me having to explain to them. So the resources with a PMA are incredibly deep. There are very many different ways to be a psychiatric nurse.

Dr. Tari Dilks: You don’t have to go into advanced practice nursing. You might go into administration. You might choose to stay and be the front-line R.N. and that be what you want and that be the kind of service that you can offer to others. And that’s perfectly OK. When I was a young nurse, that was a great thing because I didn’t have to worry about additional responsibility when I had young kids. But then as my kids grew, I wanted to grow as well. And so then I started looking for more and more education. And I think APNA just is an incredibly rich resource. And I don’t say that just as the president of the organization, I say it because I came up through the ranks. I met the executive director at that meeting in Long Beach, and he and I developed this incredible relationship over the years. Of just I could call him and ask him any question he could guide me on. I was involved with the state nurse practitioner organization. He helped me figure out the type of executive director that we needed to do. And every single person that’s on staff at APNA is like that. They are there to help you. And it’s a wonderful thing.

Rachel Star Withers: And what does APNA do to support people with mental illness?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, we’re very big into wellness promotion and prevention of mental health problems into what’s called the recovery type attitude, which, you know, a lot of times some people hear the word recovery. They think only addiction. Well, there is a recovery from mental illness as well. And when we start employing those principles, like involving the family, involving the community, then we get better responses. We work with people who are in crisis. We have a psychopharmacology thing every year that assists our nurse practitioners and clinical nurse specialists to prescribe to keep up with the latest information that’s out there on psychopharmacology. We look at a recovery focused person centered. We talk about cultural awareness, trauma informed care. I’m doing some consulting work in an addictions area now and it amazes me, and it shouldn’t, but it amazes me the number of people with addictive issues who have significant childhood trauma and how that has contributed to how they’ve gotten into their addiction. We have consumers that give us input in our education and our conferences. We try to provide the resources and support the members to advocate for their patients. You know, I was at a meeting where they talked about that all school shooters were mentally ill.

Dr. Tari Dilks: And I had to stand up and say, that’s not true. People with mental illness are much more likely to be shot than they are to shoot people. But a lot of times the press picks up on, well, they got treated for depression way back when. Or they should have been treated for depression or whatever. And it has nothing to do with why they chose to shoot up the school or whatever area they’re in. We do everything we can to build up the psychiatric nursing workforce and we need more. We need to make this type of nursing profession important to young nurses and get them to see the incredible growth that can happen with you, with your patients, with the families, with everybody that’s involved with that particular patient. We provide education to all nurses. We’ve opened up some of our courses, especially during the pandemic. To anybody, any nurse that wants to get on there and take it, there is a technique called motivational interviewing that is a way to talk to and partner with a patient in their road to hell. And any nurse can take that now for free.

Rachel Star Withers: Oh, wow.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Yeah. Those are the types of things that a APNA tries to do. They try to be nimble, they try to be responsive and provide resources that all nurses need, really.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s absolutely awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Dilks. Was there anything that you wanted to promote?

Dr. Tari Dilks: I want to promote getting rid of stigma. That’s what I would like to promote. Is that the people who are mentally ill are you and me. They are just exactly like you and me. They are just at a point in their life where their survival skills, their ability to handle things are down low. And so treat folks, everybody with kindness, treat them with compassion. And please, if you’re a nurse listening to this and psych appeals to you at all, please come into the profession. We need everybody.

Rachel Star Withers: Awesome. Thank you so much for speaking with us today, Dr. Dilks. I absolutely love this interview. And I personally learned so much.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Oh, great.

Rachel Star Withers: This has been very wonderful speaking with you today.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, Rachel, I so appreciate the opportunity to do this. Like I said, it’s a passion of mine. I really enjoy trying to get people to see things a little bit differently.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, Tari was very, very cool. Thank you, Tari, for taking time away from your duties as the president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association. You were there, Rachel, what were your initial thoughts going into the interview vs. your thoughts when the interview was over?

Rachel Star Withers: Going in, I thought it was gonna be pretty boring, just that, you know,

Gabe Howard: It’s honest, I understand. I understand.

Rachel Star Withers: I mean, you know, not going to be that exciting and it for me was the opposite. I think what stands out most about her is her passion. She loves what she does. And she is incredibly passionate about it. And that was just the coolest thing to me. Like, she got me passionate about psychiatric nursing. She just sounded so excited about what she does and what she’s been doing for many, many years and has went to so much schooling in. And obviously, she’s very knowledgeable.

Gabe Howard: She said so many things that I didn’t think about, Rachel, what was the thing that just really blew your mind? That you thought, wow?

Rachel Star Withers: The coolest thing I think overall for me is how much schooling, how much work goes in to being that person. To being that person that you come in contact with. I’ve never in the past, really, I don’t want to say I don’t respect those people because I did. But I respect them on a much deeper level now. And that is like so cool. When Dr. Dilks was talking, I was thinking like, oh, my gosh, I want to be your patient so bad because I was blown away. Like, you are so knowledgeable, like I want you treating me. You probably know so much. And that’s just really cool to think. The people you are coming in contact with have put in so much work to get to come in contact with you. That’s just amazing to me.

Gabe Howard: The most shocking thing to me was just how much on the frontlines the nurses are. And I want to give a big, big thank you to Dr. Dilks for really just explaining that every nurse is a psychiatric nurse because they come into contact with people first. And that was a big aha moment for me, because she’s right. People with severe and persistent mental illness, people with schizophrenia, we do often talk to nurses before we get to doctors. So if they’re on their game and they notice that something’s off, they can really point us in the right direction. Because, again, we often think of the nurses as the people standing between us and the medical care that we need, rather than the nurses assisting in us getting the medical care that they need. They really can be a great patient advocate.

Rachel Star Withers: I totally agree, Gabe. An absolute thank you to all of those who work in nursing, who come in contact with anyone who has a mental disorder, who comes in contact with the family, the friends of people who have a mental disorder, because yeah, it takes a village.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, any encouraging words for people living with schizophrenia?

Rachel Star Withers: Yes. To my people with schizophrenia and the loved ones and whatnot, educate yourself on the people who are treating you. For one, it’s going to really help to build trust between you and that person. When you’re sitting in that office and there’s all these like certificates and degrees on the wall, you might want to read a few of them. I’ll be honest, I usually don’t read them. Because that’s going to help, you know. Who is this person who’s talking to me? They’re not just some random person. And to all of my nurses out there and mental health care workers, I encourage you to tell your patients your basic credentials, kind of give them some reassurance, you know, oh, I’m this type of nurse. I’ve studied blah, blah, blah for so many years. I just think that’s going to build that trust between you two.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, that is excellent advice and along the lines of excellent advice, wherever you download his podcast, please subscribe. Please leave us a review. Rank us, say nice things about us. Rachel and I like hearing nice things. When you share us on social media, use your words and tell people why they should listen. If you’re involved in any sort of schizophrenic support group, please share this podcast with them. We want to go as far and wide as humanly possible. We will see everybody next time on Inside Schizophrenia.

Announcer: Inside Schizophrenia is presented by PsychCentral.com, America’s largest and longest operating independent mental health website. Your host, Rachel Star Withers, can be found online at RachelStarLive.com. Co-host Gabe Howard can be found online at gabehoward.com. For questions, or to provide feedback, please e-mail talkback@PsychCentral.com. The official website for Inside Schizophrenia is PsychCentral.com/IS. Thank you for listening, and please, share widely.

from https://ift.tt/2TnfOiS Check out https://peterlegyel.wordpress.com/

[ashley-unicorn]

Inside Schizophrenia: The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment

Some of the professionals that work most with helping people with schizophrenia are nurses. There are so many types with different skill sets. Host Rachel Star Withers and Co-host Gabe Howards learn who these often overlooked healthcare workers are.

Dr. Tari Dilks, Professor and President of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association, joins with insight on what goes into being a psychiatric nurse. 

Highlights in “The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment” Episode

[01:14] Doctor sidekicks?

[04:00] The types of nurses

[06:40] Nurse Practitioners

[11:00] Nurses specialties

[13:00] Psychiatric Nursing

[17:00] Where do psychiatric nurses work?

[21:00] Home Health Care

[24:10] Guest Interview with Dr. Tari Dilks

[26:17] How psychiatric nursing is different than other types

[34:00] Be the hope for someone

[45:16] Appreciation for what goes into being a nurse

About Our Guest

Sattaria ‘Tari’ Dilks, DNP, APRN, PMHNP-BC, FAANP

Professor and Co-coordinator of Graduate Nursing, College of Nursing and Health Professions, McNeese State University

Dr. Tari Dilks is a professor of nursing at McNeese State University and co-coordinator of McNeese’s Master of Science in Nursing programs. She is also director of the psychiatric/mental health track for the Intercollegiate Consortium for a Master of Science in Nursing partnership involving McNeese, Nicholls State University, Southeastern Louisiana University and the University of Louisiana at Lafayette.

 Currently the President of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association, she consistently advocates for awareness of psychiatric-mental health issues. She the past chair of the APNA Practice Council and was the 2017 recipient of the APNA Award for Excellence in Education.

Dilks obtained her Doctorate of Nursing Practice in psychiatric mental health advanced practice nursing from the University of Tennessee, her Master of Science in Nursing degree and her Master of Arts degree in psychology both from McNeese and her Bachelor of Science in Nursing degree from West Texas State University. She is a family nurse practitioner, psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner and a licensed professional counselor in Louisiana.

She has also been recognized for her leadership by the American Association of Nurse Practitioners with the Louisiana Award for Nurse Practitioner Excellence and her induction into the academy as a Fellow.

www.apna.org

APNA Report: Expanding Mental Health Care Services in America: The Pivotal Role of Psychiatric-Mental Health Nurses

Computer Generated Transcript of “The Role Nurses Play in Schizophrenia Treatment” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia, a look in to better understanding and living well with schizophrenia. Hosted by renowned advocate and influencer Rachel Star Withers and featuring Gabe Howard.

Sponsor: Listeners, could a change in your schizophrenia treatment plan make a difference?  There are options out there you might not know about. Visit OnceMonthlyDifference.com to find out more about once monthly injections for adults with schizophrenia.

Rachel Star Withers: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia, a Psych Central podcast. I’m Rachel Star Withers here with my co-host, Gabe Howard. And this episode, we’re gonna be talking about the roles nurses play in our mental health care.

Gabe Howard: It’s weird to think that nursing has anything to do with schizophrenia, when you suggested the topic was like what? How are we going to get an hour out of this?

Rachel Star Withers: I agree. It really blew my mind. Learning what nurses do has actually been incredible because there is so much that goes into nursing.

Gabe Howard: Sincerely, before we started this, I thought that nurses were Dr. Sidekick’s. I want to be completely honest. I thought that nurses were doctor assistants. Hard stop. That’s it. There was nothing more that they did. The end. And wow, was I wrong.

Rachel Star Withers: If you look at like different TV shows, Scrubs, ER, like when you’re watching them, it’s very segregated. The nurses and the doctors and you just kind of get that idea that they’re two separate things, you know, and obviously doctors what you want. That’s the vibe you get from TV if you don’t know who these people are.

Gabe Howard: It’s very interesting to me, as much as we talk about how. Don’t learn about schizophrenia and mental illness from pop culture and media representations. We’ve had to have said that at least a dozen times over the course of Inside Schizophrenia. And yet here we are learning about the nursing industry from their portrayal on media and pop culture. And it just goes to show you that it’s easy to fall into this trap, that what we’re seeing on TV is somehow some sort of accurate portrayal when in actuality it’s not, it’s fictitious at best.

Rachel Star Withers: All I’m going to say is thank you to all of our wonderful nurses. Obviously we have the pandemic and stuff going on. So thankfully, a lot of people that don’t get seen have been pushed into the spotlight and all the work they’re doing. So any level of nursing, medical, health care. Thank you so much right now, because all those people are giving more than they should have to.

Gabe Howard: I completely agree. Thank you so much for all that you do, and nurses are as a man with red hair, meaning I grew up as a redhead. I’m allowed to say this. The nurses seem to be the red headed stepchildren of the medical industry. They’re so necessary and they do so much. And yet they’re often ignored. And we want to talk about specifically how nurses are helping people with schizophrenia, because, as it turns out, they’re doing an incredible amount of work and even us. Rachel, before we started this show, we’re like, wow. I mean, what do they do? Like what? They check us in when we get there?

Rachel Star Withers: Take my blood pressure?

Gabe Howard: Yeah. They check our blood pressure before, you know, the real person comes in to help us. And that’s really the crux of this conversation. Coming up later, we have a wonderful guest, a woman who has been a nurse for a long time and has done a lot of work. And she’s a psychiatric nurse. And I am excited to have everybody listen to her because, I mean, frankly, she really set us straight.

Rachel Star Withers: Oh, yeah.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, there are different types of nurses, and I don’t mean like psychiatric nurse versus surgical nurse. I mean, like there’s different educational levels. Who have access to do different things. And I was kind of surprised by that as well, because I, I really sincerely thought it was one size fits all.

Rachel Star Withers: So the three basic types. OK. Three general basic types. We have an RN, a Registered Nurse. That’s kind of what I would say most of us think of in our head when we picture a nurse is what is the traditional registered nurse. A lot of times, you know, you go to the hospital, that’s who you are interacting with. They do like the vitals. So you are talking to that person kind of on that level. They can, as we’ll get into, do diagnoses, different assessments, like they play a major part because a lot of times the doctor will only see you for, like, you know, five minutes. But it’s the nurse who does all the work of, hey, this is what I think’s going on, then pulls the doctor in. Then you have licensed practical nurse or vocational nurse, depending on what country or state you’re in, and they are under the supervision of the nurses. I don’t want to say nursing assistant, but kind of. It’s the next level down. But they do a lot of important stuff also. And then there is the CNA, Certified Nursing Assistant. And that’s I hear the most, I guess, with people. I’ll have people talk about what our jobs are. I hear oh, I’m a CNA. I hear that all the time. And I really didn’t know what that meant. But there are ones who do like routine and daily tasks. CND are usually the ones you get to talk to the most. That kind of interact with you, that kind of help you form, like, I don’t want to say emotional bond, ’cause it sounds a little creepy in the medical sense, but, no, that, like the ones you’re like talking to. You know, more one on one. So these are like the three big ones.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that, of course, was most impressive in all of this is that no matter what kind of a nurse you see there on the front lines, it means they have a lot of patient interaction. So when we talk about how nurses help people with schizophrenia, they might be the first medical person that somebody who is in crisis sees. When you walk into the emergency room, the first person that you see is not a doctor. It’s not a psychiatrist. It’s a nurse of some sort. Nurses often see people with schizophrenia and start the process towards diagnosis long before you reach a doctor. So in that way, nurses are extraordinarily vital to noticing the symptoms of schizophrenia and reporting them back up the chain. And I don’t think many people really realize this and that. And that alone shows you the importance of nurses in the treatment of schizophrenia and other mental health issues. Nurses don’t just change bedpans. They’re really doing a lot to keep people with schizophrenia safe. And I was very surprised by that. Rachel, I understand that you’re not as surprised as me because you see a nurse practitioner for your schizophrenia treatment, which I did not know and blew me away.

Rachel Star Withers: Yes. So what that is, though, if you’re listening at home, you’re thinking, Rachel, didn’t go over nurse practitioners as one of her three things. So there are advanced nurses that they are highly trained. Lots and lots of college and lots of certifications having to constantly keep up on what’s going on. These are the people that they can diagnose you. They could actually prescribe medicine. Where I go twice a month for the past, like eight, 10 years is a center. It’s a mental health center. And I have never met the psychiatrist there. I think there’s one or two on staff. But they are over these nurses. So I’ve always met with, like a different nurse over the years. And I assumed I was meeting with the doctor, really. Just like in the past where I met with psychiatrist. You sit down, we discuss the symptoms, what’s been going on, any changes that I might need to take, where we’re at, checking to make sure nothing else is going on that might be interfering.

Gabe Howard: I remember a long time ago when Gabe Howard was but a young mental health advocate. I really pushed people only to get mental health care from a psychiatrist. I would always say some form of, well, if you had cancer, you would only go to an oncologist. And, listen, in a perfect world, I still stand by that. We don’t live in a perfect world. And I realized in many places there can be a one, two, three, four month wait, if not longer, to see a psychiatrist. And if you’re in crisis, you need somebody. Now, I’ve realized that licensed nurse practitioners, especially psychiatric nurse practitioners, are really pulling a lot of weight. They’re trained, they’re specialized, and they do a really, really great job. And do I wish that there were a million more psychiatrists? Do I wish that you could see a psychiatrist at the drop of a hat in a moment’s notice? Do I wish that the health care system works differently for people living with schizophrenia? Absolutely. But this isn’t the world that we live in. And it’s important to understand that psychiatric nurse practitioners are a very vital stopgap and have saved a lot a lot of lives. And it’s something that I didn’t give enough credit to. And I imagine that when I said things like you should only see a psychiatrist, it’s possible that somebody who listened to my words might have sat at home and gotten zero care because they were waiting on that psychiatrist. And that’s not good. That’s a very bad idea. You should always get any care that you can find before getting no care, whether that’s from a general practitioner, from an emergency room, from a Wal-Mart clinic. All of these things are much, much better options than getting zero care. And the licensed nurse practitioners are, they’re an excellent resource.

Rachel Star Withers: And to be fair, Gabe, I would say most of the time you are having to get a referral. And I don’t think other doctors are so quick to send you to nurse practitioner versus doctor. I know in the past. They’ve always been like, oh, we’ll write a referral. We’ll find a psychiatrist on your insurance. That’s always how it’s been worded to me. So it’s not just you, I would say, like just the people in the offices, doctors’ offices, they word things a certain way that makes you think, oh, I can only see a psychiatrist.

Gabe Howard: It’s understandable that people would believe this, and I think that’s something that we want this particular show to sort of open up the idea that there is a wide variety of care that a person can get. It’s also possible that when you’re in crisis, when you first need diagnosed, that a psychiatrist is where you should go. But I’m going to use you as an example, Rachel. You were diagnosed, what, 15, 20 years ago? It’s certainly possible that now while you’re in recovery and you’re, you know, month to month or even quarterly to quarterly med checks, etc., don’t need to rise to the level of a psychiatrist. You can be checked out by a nurse practitioner or even a general practitioner, etc. It’s all about finding the best care for you and the stage of your disease process. And I think that’s something that we need to be open to. Let’s make sure that people who are seeing licensed nurse practitioner or psychiatric nurses aren’t thinking that they’re getting bad care, they’re just getting different care. And I think that really needs to be the message. It’s not bad care. It’s different care.

Rachel Star Withers: And all of these nurses that you’re coming in contact with, they have a passion and they have found like who they want to help. Like when you specialize in certain things, whether you want to, like, work with kids, adults, older people, ones who want to work with like pregnant women. So pediatric nurse, you have like geriatric nurse. When my grandparents were both suffering very, very badly from Alzheimer’s, we actually had geriatric nurses coming to the house and one of them was so great with my grandfather. He was mentally gone. And she was like, I remember telling me she had been trained to deal with that, to deal with people in their 80s, 90s who were not themselves anymore. And we were just like really impressed with that.

Gabe Howard: This specific part that I want to zero in on is where you said that, where she said this is what I’ve been specifically trained for, and that’s what we want the audience to understand about psychiatric nurses helping people with schizophrenia lead their best lives, get their best care. That is what they’ve been specifically trained for. And, you know, so often let’s go back to the top of the show where we thought that doctors were best and nurses were second best. But wait a minute. What if you have a doctor who’s been specifically trained in geriatric issues and a nurse who’s been specifically trained in psychiatric issues? Well, now, depending on where you are. Well, the doctor is better. The doctor has to be better, they’re a doctor. But they have no specialized training in schizophrenia or mental health issues. They only have the broad training. So in this way, we need to start thinking, well, now, wait a minute, a nurse with specific psychiatric training and in my mind, and the research holds out, a nurse with specific training in psychiatric disorders is going to be better than a doctor with broad training and nonspecific issues. And this is where we need to start being aware that that just because you’re a doctor doesn’t mean that you’re better than a nurse. Every situation is different. And it’s important to understand that we’re different, right? We have specialized needs. People with mental illness have specialized needs. And I always want to be in a room with a practitioner who understands the illness and who understands my specific needs, because that’s going to give me the best path to wellness. Is that how you feel, Rachel?

Rachel Star Withers: Absolutely, Gabe. And with it, these specialized like that’s something they’ve chosen. That’s something that they’re passionate about. Like usually these people, they specialize for a reason. OK, they are interested in helping people with mental disorders or whatever they specialized in. A little bit later, we talked to Dr. Dilks. That becomes so clear how passionate she is and you will see why she chose psychiatric nursing. And it kind of makes me feel better to know that you have somebody who’s like, I can work with anybody, but I’ve chosen to work with people who are in crisis like you. I don’t know, that’s just really cool to me that someone has decided you are specifically what I want to focus on.

Gabe Howard: So let’s break this down a little bit. You know, psychiatric, mental health nurse, it tends to be an umbrella term. There’s a ton of titles. They vary by state. But let’s talk about the roles and duties of a psychiatric mental health nurse. What do they do?

Rachel Star Withers: So they are going to be the ones that assess you when you come in there. I’m having a situation. They’re going to be figuring out what are the symptoms, what’s going on? They can help diagnose and treat patients, depending on what type of nurse they are. They may be actually prescribing your medication. If you are in a actual facility, where you’re staying inpatient, there’s so many different nurses there that are going to be monitoring you, taking your weight, monitoring your food like just so many different levels, just the basics. And then the brain, the mentally. How is this person responding to these medications? You know, where are they mentally? Their jobs are also to educate family members, which is so important. I remember one of my past mental health nurses actually asking, could my parents come in. If I would feel OK about bringing them in so they could all be on the same page of what needs to happen for Rachel. But of course, they had to ask my permission as I am an adult. Just really incredible. They help the patients set your goals short term, long term. Where do I want to be mentally?

Gabe Howard: And they also have subspecialties, so not only are they focusing on, you know, schizophrenia, psychosis and the things that are important to people living with severe and persistent mental illness, living with schizophrenia, but then they come up with a subspecialty which zeroes in their ability to help even more. And those subspecialties, well, there’s a ton of them, Rachel.

Rachel Star Withers: Yep. Wherever you live, you might not have an office that has all of these wonderful subspecialties, but you’re going to people who specialize in children and teens, adolescent kind of ages. Substance abuse is a big difference. Then let’s say schizophrenia. You have others that their main job is to be the go between, that they’re more of an administrative kind of office type person. That is their job to kind of help you outside of this. Like, once you get out, what happens once you’re not inside the office? Who’s helping you? And I think that’s a really cool one. Like, I kind of thought those people, which I know I’ve come in contact with, they actually know. They have a medical background. They have lots of training to be able to make these connections that are best for you.

Gabe Howard: We’ve heard a lot about what they can do, how they’re trained, how they specialize and why they’re great, but where do they work? Where would we run into or meet up with a psychiatric nurse or a mental health nurse?

Rachel Star Withers: Hospitals. Psychiatric style hospitals, different doctor’s offices across the board, home health care organizations. One that I hadn’t thought about till we were researching, prisons. There are a lot of psychiatric nurses that work in the prison system. Whoo! Wow.

Gabe Howard: And that’s one to really consider, because prisons have sort of become the new asylums. There’s a lot of people with schizophrenia that unfortunately, because of the mental health safety net being so holy, they find themselves in prison. So, thankfully, these nurses are in there because they may well be the only people looking out for the mental health and the well-being of people with schizophrenia who find themselves in prison.

Rachel Star Withers: Another area I wasn’t thinking about would be schools. Schools employ a lot of different nurses. And I do remember my college. You could, like, have free basic checkups and things like that. And then they also had free counseling that I would go to. And looking back, I don’t remember who it was I was talking to. I just assumed it was a psychologist. So looking back, I’m like, oh, well, I’m seeing how many nurses are employed. And I was probably talking to a specialized nurse back those many years ago. And understand like to become one of these people, it’s not just about my two year degree. You have to get multiple licenses. You have to have all these different certifications and so many different hours practicing at different areas. You know, and then you’re looking at some have their masters, some have their doctorate in nursing, which is kind of weird to think. So you’re a doctor of nursing? That concept was a little odd to me because we don’t understand nursing correctly. Like, honestly.

Gabe Howard: Well, yeah. Yeah. At the top of the show, we thought that nurses were doctor assistants, so yeah, I’ve been shocked at the amount of training and again, it just shows you the base misunderstanding that we have about the profession.

Rachel Star Withers: Let’s swing over. What are the other nurses? So we know we’re gonna run into some psychiatric nurses. It’s common with schizophrenia, we’re probably going to, at some point, interact with some E.R. nurses. E.R. nurses are like, incredible. They’re gonna be the ones who have to spot the crisis situation first on what’s happening, especially if you are in the middle of psychosis and you can’t really tell them what’s going on. Your reality is all messed up. I know a lot of times when I kind of I call it being mentally off. But a lot of times when I am in the middle of a psychotic episode, I have really bad headaches. If you were to ask me, Rachel, what’s going on? I’m probably not going to tell you I have a headache. You’re gonna see me trying to find a hammer to pull the nails out because it hurts so bad, it feels like a nail. So I need to get a hammer to pull the nails out. That would be what I would be telling you. And you’re like, what? But I’m trying to tell you, that’s how bad my headache is. Psychotically, though, in my mind, my head literally has nails in it. So imagine being a nurse and you have someone coming in there trying to explain symptoms in those ways. And you have to be smart enough to figure out what is this person saying in a very intense time. Very kind of, I would say, scary. You have family members who might have brought the person in. It’s just amazing, though, that what E.R. nurses have to be able to do and remain calm doing that.

Gabe Howard: Switching gears, just ever so slightly, Rachel, you know, the demand for mental health services has increased significantly in recent years, primarily because more Americans have health insurance because of the Affordable Care Act. From 2014 to 2015, there was a 58% increase in mental health nursing jobs, which required an R.N. and a 17% increase in demand for psychiatric nurse practitioner jobs because of the increased demand for mental health services and the diminishing stigma surrounding mental health conditions. A major void in psychiatric care still exists, and nurses are in great demand to fill these mental health jobs. So nurses are out on the front lines trying to solve a lot of these problems that we have been advocating about for years. They’re also doing large amounts of stuff outside of the E.R. with home health care. And this is amazing to me because we’re sort of back to like America in the 1800’s where people are making house calls.

Rachel Star Withers: Yes, when I hear home health care, I think the nurse is having to come to your house because you’re old or you have like a physical disability, not mental. So I didn’t even know that could be an option for some people. Unfortunately, a lot of us with schizophrenia and other very severe mental disorders, we can be really bad at taking your medication. In fact, as many as 60% of patients with schizophrenia do not take their medication as prescribed, which means they take less, they take more. This is me. I’ve had this happen too. They feel like they’re better. So, OK, I’m going to go off my meds and then they’re not better. And having like a home psychiatric nurse who like travels and checks on different people, they’re able to notice if that person isn’t taking their medication a lot quicker than if I just go to the psychiatrist once a month. This person is the one who is coming regularly and checking on me. And that is just like a really awesome thing. If you’re out there, you’re listening or you’re a loved one of someone with schizophrenia, you might want to look into those different programs, especially if, you know the medication situation is one that you struggle with. Even looking into people who, if you are out of a hospital and having a hard time transitioning into the world, they have different organizations that can help you with that. And part of that is the nurses who can come and check on you.

Gabe Howard: I think it’s also very interesting and probably important to consider the role of home health care during the pandemic. It probably saved a lot of lives and we won’t know the full extent of everything for probably another year or so. But I got to tell you, you know, during times like quarantines, things being closed, people not being able to leave their house, people with schizophrenia, having access to home health care, it did a lot of good for both those folks and no doubt their caregivers. Another nod to just how important this overlooked occupation is.

Rachel Star Withers: And we’ll be right back after this message from our sponsor.

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Rachel Star Withers: And we’re back talking about the roles nurses play in our mental health care.

Gabe Howard: As promised, everybody, I would like to introduce Dr. Tari Dilks. She is a nurse practitioner with a PhD and she’s the president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association. And honestly, this was probably one of the most illuminating and enlightening interviews that we’ve ever done on Inside Schizophrenia. She just makes so many incredible points. And Rachel, I’m jealous that you got to talk to her, and I didn’t. She is very, very cool. And I think all of you are gonna get a lot out of this. Here we go. Here is that interview.

Rachel Star Withers: Today, we are excited to be talking with Dr. Tari Dilks, who is the current president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association (APNA). Thank you so much for talking with us today.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, I so appreciate the invitation, Rachel.

Rachel Star Withers: Now you have a really, really extensive background.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Oh god.

Rachel Star Withers: Let our listeners know a little bit about yourself.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Okey-doke. I am, first of all, a registered nurse. And then I got a little bored with floor nursing and got a master’s degree in counseling psychology. And I’m also a licensed professional counselor. So I began to get a little burned out. So my husband said, go back to school and become a nurse practitioner. And I said, you’re out of your mind. But I did. And I have another master’s degree in nursing. And I went back and got a doctorate in psychiatric nursing practice. And now I teach and have a consulting type business.

Rachel Star Withers: And that’s really awesome to me. What we’ve been talking about on this episode is to like the lay person we hear nurse and honestly, you know, you think assistant to a doctor

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right.

Rachel Star Withers: And you don’t realize like how much goes into nursing and the different levels. It’s incredible. So it’s I love your background is just it’s a lot. It’s way more than most people think. You know, unfortunately, most of us kind of think of Scrubs or E.R. or one of those type

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right.

Rachel Star Withers: Of shows when they think of a nurse.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Right. There’s not very many people like me out there, but all of us have a different journey, though. And it you know, my sister’s journey went to the emergency department. My mother’s went to the operating room. I ended up in psych almost by accident and have loved it ever since I found it.

Rachel Star Withers: [00:01:48] So what made you decide exactly to switch over to psychiatric?

Dr. Tari Dilks: So what made me decide to become a psychiatric nurse was an accident in a large part. My mother was an operating room nurse. Then I thought that just doesn’t sound exciting to me. And I ended up going to nursing school up near Amarillo, Texas, at West Texas State. And while I was there, I got a job at a children’s psychiatric hospital and I thought I have died and gone to heaven. This is what nursing ought to be. I was able to do so many things that appealed to me at that time. I played guitar and I could bring my guitar and sing with the kids. I did art and I could bring that playing cards. It was amazing to me how much information you can get from playing cards with people. What sort of selections they make, what their hand-eye coordination is. And so when I came back to Lake Charles, they had a job on a med surg unit, which I kept one day. And then a job opening came up on psych and I had never looked back. That has been such a powerful journey for me and to be able to help people in a very creative way. There’s no algorithm that tells you, say this. Say this. This. It is what’s going on in the moment. It’s a collaboration between you and that particular person.

Rachel Star Withers: You’ve spoken a little bit, but how exactly would you say psychiatric nursing really differs from general nursing?

Dr. Tari Dilks: General nursing, there are skills and certainly psychiatric nurses have skills as well. Starting an IV. Putting down an NG tube, the things that you were talking about earlier, that nursing, you know, on E.R. or Scrubs or one of those shows, they show nurses as very proficient at doing different types of skills. And for me, psychiatric nursing is while it engages the science of nursing. It is all about the art of nursing. It is about the relationship. It’s about the whole person, not just a particular disease or just a particular procedure. It’s about trying to see a person in a very holistic type of context so we can navigate these interpersonal relationships and we can engage with people on a very deep level. And that’s really, to me, the essence of psychiatric nursing. And I think it’s the essence of it for all of us.

Rachel Star Withers: What are the biggest challenges that come along with your profession?

Dr. Tari Dilks: You know, I’ve been in this field a very long time. And when I was started out in it, there was stigma and there is still stigma today, not only against the patients, but also the nurses had a stigma about becoming a psychiatric nurse for some reason. It’s not perceived, at least by the students, as being real nurses. So I talked to an undergraduate nursing class pretty much every semester. And the first question I ask is how many of you are gonna be in psychiatric nurses? And two might out of 60 raise their hands. And then I look at them and I say, all of you are gonna be psychiatric nurses, because what you learn in this class and what you learn about psychiatric nursing permeates throughout the entire profession of nursing. Everybody takes the skills that they learn in undergraduate training as a psychiatric nurse. And you apply it to every patient you see, every family you see. A lot of people are afraid of going into psychiatric nursing because they’ve seen things that show psychiatric patients as being very violent and being out of control and out of touch with reality. And while that is a part of the patient population that we see, it is such a small part of the patient population we see all of us could be psychiatric patients at different times in our lives. All of us get overwhelmed. All of us get depressed. All of us get anxious. And at some point in time, for some people, it just becomes too much. And really, about close to 50 percent of people over the course of their lifetime are going to be affected by a psychiatric illness on either a mild or a major level. And so what I do really, really matters in a very different way. We’ve got a really severe workforce shortage and a lot of that is is how people perceive us.

Rachel Star Withers: How do most patients respond to you?

Dr. Tari Dilks: You know, I have worked a lot over the years on how I talk to people and recognizing that I can’t fix them. And, you know, I think that was something that I came out of nursing school with, was I was here to save the world. Right. Because nurses are great caregivers. They take care of other people. And it took me a while to realize that’s not what my job was. My job is to sit with that person and to help them figure out what they’re going to do, what works in their life, what works for me may not work for them. And I think and that’s what frustrates I get some family nurse practitioners that come in for a post, masters in Psych, and they want algorithms, you know, because they’ve got that for blood pressure. Somebody comes in and they have high blood pressure. This is what I do. Boom, boom, boom. Well, somebody comes in and they’re crying and they’re depressed and they’re in an unhealthy relationship. There is no boom, boom, boom. It’s not a one, two, three. It’s let’s get in there and dig around. And unfortunately, part of our digging involves pain. Oftentimes a lot of psychological pain. And that’s hard for people. And you’ve got to lay the groundwork before you get there. That’s very frustrating for other nurses because like I said, some of them have these algorithms. You do A B C and things get better. Well, this is you might do A and Z and maybe W and then get back to B and C before the patient really begins to respond. So I find that with experience has also come a lot of empathy. People respond well to me. I’ve worked really hard on vocal modulation because that makes a difference when you’re talking to somebody. If they’re getting more and more upset, the lower you talk, the slower you talk, the more you look like you know what you’re talking about, the greater the chance that they’re going to respond to you and begin to calm down.

Rachel Star Withers: What would you like to say to people who are in a crisis when they come in contact with you?

Dr. Tari Dilks: There’s always hope. You know, I had have had patients who’ve come in who’ve been fired by every provider they’ve ever had. And that was part of what led to some of my burnout early on, was that I really felt like they needed to have hope. And it required that I have hope. And sometimes when they didn’t, I needed to have it for them. And I had a patient who really, really, really wanted me to give them permission to commit suicide and asked me, you know, Tari, why do you want me to stay in this kind of pain? And it took me aback. I thought, oh, my goodness, is that what I’m doing? Am I making people stay in pain? And then I realized my job was to have the hope for them, for them to always be able to see that that there was an option, that there was another chance. And that person is alive today. And it’s a wonderful thing.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s amazing. What helped you kind of come out of your burnout?

Dr. Tari Dilks: That requires self-care. And that was another thing that they really did not teach me in nursing school, was that I needed to figure out how to take care of myself. So to do that, I’ve been in therapy a couple of times and I play very hard. I scuba dove. I do art. I try to take time out to enjoy my 10 grandchildren. You know, I try to make sure that I carve out time for me. I love to read. So I always make sure every day I had the opportunity to read and I read junk fiction, you know? But it’s escapist. And I a lot of ways. I love music. So I listen to all the corny music shows that are out there, you know, journaling and all of that gets together with helping me relax. I’m sitting here looking out my window on a lake and I’m watching the wind play on the water. All of those things contribute to self-care. There’s all different types of things that that I try to do to take care of myself. When I do those things, I don’t burn out.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s great advice for anyone. That’s awesome.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Absolutely, absolutely.

Rachel Star Withers: Now, what advice do you have for anyone who is thinking of becoming a psychiatric nurse?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Just do it. It is a wonderfully rewarding profession we’re nurses at heart; we understand how to assess people. We understand the interplay between different disease processes and psychiatric manifestations. Like I said, it’s the most rewarding thing in the world for me. And people that are attracted to this profession should just go into it and learn everything they can, absorb everything they can and develop mentors and find people that they can emulate and learn from. And always keeping in mind that their job again is not to fix the person, it’s to walk with the person on their journey. And I’m not walking in front of them and I’m not walking behind them. I’m walking side by side. Let me help you get through this. Let’s figure it out.

Rachel Star Withers: What resources does the American Psychiatric Nurses Association have for those who are interested in becoming a psychiatric nurse?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, we have several things. We have a student membership that’s only twenty five dollars. There’s the opportunity with that membership to network on a platform we call Member Bridge. There are free education and resources there. There also is a mentoring program there. There is a tip sheet for new nurses and we have a program for people who are becoming new nurses where they can do an educational process that helps them understand the basics of psychiatric nursing. We offer an educational scholarship to students every year for our annual conference. There are 10 undergraduate and 10 graduate scholarships and we’re working on beginning to expand that to where we can offer more. But that was one reason I got very involved with a Pinay several years ago. I got one of those scholarships and was able to go to an annual conference at where was at Long Beach, California. And it was like I was home. Everybody there spoke my language. Everybody there understood. When I talked about a patient issue, what I was talking about, they understood when I talked about somebody having a really manic episode that got out of control, they knew what that was without me having to explain to them. So the resources with a PMA are incredibly deep. There are very many different ways to be a psychiatric nurse.

Dr. Tari Dilks: You don’t have to go into advanced practice nursing. You might go into administration. You might choose to stay and be the front-line R.N. and that be what you want and that be the kind of service that you can offer to others. And that’s perfectly OK. When I was a young nurse, that was a great thing because I didn’t have to worry about additional responsibility when I had young kids. But then as my kids grew, I wanted to grow as well. And so then I started looking for more and more education. And I think APNA just is an incredibly rich resource. And I don’t say that just as the president of the organization, I say it because I came up through the ranks. I met the executive director at that meeting in Long Beach, and he and I developed this incredible relationship over the years. Of just I could call him and ask him any question he could guide me on. I was involved with the state nurse practitioner organization. He helped me figure out the type of executive director that we needed to do. And every single person that’s on staff at APNA is like that. They are there to help you. And it’s a wonderful thing.

Rachel Star Withers: And what does APNA do to support people with mental illness?

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, we’re very big into wellness promotion and prevention of mental health problems into what’s called the recovery type attitude, which, you know, a lot of times some people hear the word recovery. They think only addiction. Well, there is a recovery from mental illness as well. And when we start employing those principles, like involving the family, involving the community, then we get better responses. We work with people who are in crisis. We have a psychopharmacology thing every year that assists our nurse practitioners and clinical nurse specialists to prescribe to keep up with the latest information that’s out there on psychopharmacology. We look at a recovery focused person centered. We talk about cultural awareness, trauma informed care. I’m doing some consulting work in an addictions area now and it amazes me, and it shouldn’t, but it amazes me the number of people with addictive issues who have significant childhood trauma and how that has contributed to how they’ve gotten into their addiction. We have consumers that give us input in our education and our conferences. We try to provide the resources and support the members to advocate for their patients. You know, I was at a meeting where they talked about that all school shooters were mentally ill.

Dr. Tari Dilks: And I had to stand up and say, that’s not true. People with mental illness are much more likely to be shot than they are to shoot people. But a lot of times the press picks up on, well, they got treated for depression way back when. Or they should have been treated for depression or whatever. And it has nothing to do with why they chose to shoot up the school or whatever area they’re in. We do everything we can to build up the psychiatric nursing workforce and we need more. We need to make this type of nursing profession important to young nurses and get them to see the incredible growth that can happen with you, with your patients, with the families, with everybody that’s involved with that particular patient. We provide education to all nurses. We’ve opened up some of our courses, especially during the pandemic. To anybody, any nurse that wants to get on there and take it, there is a technique called motivational interviewing that is a way to talk to and partner with a patient in their road to hell. And any nurse can take that now for free.

Rachel Star Withers: Oh, wow.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Yeah. Those are the types of things that a APNA tries to do. They try to be nimble, they try to be responsive and provide resources that all nurses need, really.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s absolutely awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Dilks. Was there anything that you wanted to promote?

Dr. Tari Dilks: I want to promote getting rid of stigma. That’s what I would like to promote. Is that the people who are mentally ill are you and me. They are just exactly like you and me. They are just at a point in their life where their survival skills, their ability to handle things are down low. And so treat folks, everybody with kindness, treat them with compassion. And please, if you’re a nurse listening to this and psych appeals to you at all, please come into the profession. We need everybody.

Rachel Star Withers: Awesome. Thank you so much for speaking with us today, Dr. Dilks. I absolutely love this interview. And I personally learned so much.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Oh, great.

Rachel Star Withers: This has been very wonderful speaking with you today.

Dr. Tari Dilks: Well, Rachel, I so appreciate the opportunity to do this. Like I said, it’s a passion of mine. I really enjoy trying to get people to see things a little bit differently.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, Tari was very, very cool. Thank you, Tari, for taking time away from your duties as the president of the American Psychiatric Nurses Association. You were there, Rachel, what were your initial thoughts going into the interview vs. your thoughts when the interview was over?

Rachel Star Withers: Going in, I thought it was gonna be pretty boring, just that, you know,

Gabe Howard: It’s honest, I understand. I understand.

Rachel Star Withers: I mean, you know, not going to be that exciting and it for me was the opposite. I think what stands out most about her is her passion. She loves what she does. And she is incredibly passionate about it. And that was just the coolest thing to me. Like, she got me passionate about psychiatric nursing. She just sounded so excited about what she does and what she’s been doing for many, many years and has went to so much schooling in. And obviously, she’s very knowledgeable.

Gabe Howard: She said so many things that I didn’t think about, Rachel, what was the thing that just really blew your mind? That you thought, wow?

Rachel Star Withers: The coolest thing I think overall for me is how much schooling, how much work goes in to being that person. To being that person that you come in contact with. I’ve never in the past, really, I don’t want to say I don’t respect those people because I did. But I respect them on a much deeper level now. And that is like so cool. When Dr. Dilks was talking, I was thinking like, oh, my gosh, I want to be your patient so bad because I was blown away. Like, you are so knowledgeable, like I want you treating me. You probably know so much. And that’s just really cool to think. The people you are coming in contact with have put in so much work to get to come in contact with you. That’s just amazing to me.

Gabe Howard: The most shocking thing to me was just how much on the frontlines the nurses are. And I want to give a big, big thank you to Dr. Dilks for really just explaining that every nurse is a psychiatric nurse because they come into contact with people first. And that was a big aha moment for me, because she’s right. People with severe and persistent mental illness, people with schizophrenia, we do often talk to nurses before we get to doctors. So if they’re on their game and they notice that something’s off, they can really point us in the right direction. Because, again, we often think of the nurses as the people standing between us and the medical care that we need, rather than the nurses assisting in us getting the medical care that they need. They really can be a great patient advocate.

Rachel Star Withers: I totally agree, Gabe. An absolute thank you to all of those who work in nursing, who come in contact with anyone who has a mental disorder, who comes in contact with the family, the friends of people who have a mental disorder, because yeah, it takes a village.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, any encouraging words for people living with schizophrenia?

Rachel Star Withers: Yes. To my people with schizophrenia and the loved ones and whatnot, educate yourself on the people who are treating you. For one, it’s going to really help to build trust between you and that person. When you’re sitting in that office and there’s all these like certificates and degrees on the wall, you might want to read a few of them. I’ll be honest, I usually don’t read them. Because that’s going to help, you know. Who is this person who’s talking to me? They’re not just some random person. And to all of my nurses out there and mental health care workers, I encourage you to tell your patients your basic credentials, kind of give them some reassurance, you know, oh, I’m this type of nurse. I’ve studied blah, blah, blah for so many years. I just think that’s going to build that trust between you two.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, that is excellent advice and along the lines of excellent advice, wherever you download his podcast, please subscribe. Please leave us a review. Rank us, say nice things about us. Rachel and I like hearing nice things. When you share us on social media, use your words and tell people why they should listen. If you’re involved in any sort of schizophrenic support group, please share this podcast with them. We want to go as far and wide as humanly possible. We will see everybody next time on Inside Schizophrenia.

Announcer: Inside Schizophrenia is presented by PsychCentral.com, America’s largest and longest operating independent mental health website. Your host, Rachel Star Withers, can be found online at RachelStarLive.com. Co-host Gabe Howard can be found online at gabehoward.com. For questions, or to provide feedback, please e-mail talkback@PsychCentral.com. The official website for Inside Schizophrenia is PsychCentral.com/IS. Thank you for listening, and please, share widely.

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