#and Batjokes is not an easy ship period
Explore tagged Tumblr posts
Text
Moral Complexity Extreme Sports: Platinum Edition. elaborating on the second point Fractualized made, not only do you have incessant lifelong obsession, the narratives around these two have grown roots and branches so long, in every direction, that for every "why?" you ask of their story you get 99 different answers that bring up 99 completely different questions that cause 99 completely unexpected and distinct answers. The longevity and the variety of interpretations on their dynamic introduces a level of kaleidoscopic intricate storytelling that i have seen in very few other ships, and it provides a vibrant intellectual and emotional playground to play in. It's an intellectual and emotional excercise to try and figure out the whys and how of Batjokes.
They're a pretty darn good collection of deep-rooted common sentiments and values around the nature of sexuality, particularly among people into alternative sexual expressions and/or LGBTQ+ folk. There's a lot to go off here, but violence as a colorful facet of eroticism, the inherent interconnectedness of love and hate, the transformative and transcending nature of desire, the cognitive dissonance of itā the list goes on and on. And people see themselves mirrored and reflected in these internal experiences, in these values and mental preoccupations. So exploring Batjokes as a concept becomes an effective venue for exploring these ideas and approaches in a safe and engaging space. We're making discoveries in the advanced "what exactly is the nature of attraction and desirability? what are its boundaries and thresholds?" labs.
Batman and Joker look pretty when they cry and Batman looks stellar with knives stuck in his neck!
and rb for sample size & all that
#ngl the ''and then implode'' legit took me out#but anyway yeah; everything mentioned is super true and right#but also never let it be forgotten that the batjokes space is positively infested with hyper-intellectuals#that need Fucking Problems To Solve Or They'll Die#much like someone else i knowā the name was Bamfman or sth anyway can't rememberā#and Batjokes is not an easy ship period#i mean have you seen the mental gymanistics Bruce does every morning at 5.30AM just to go around his own moral loopholes#and create 99 new ones??#that shit is EXCITING. HE'S GOT A FUCKING PROBLEM. JOKER'S GOT A FUCKING PROBLEM. goddd i love problems#they're a challenge. and even though right now i'm exclusively reading fluff batjokes the challenges very well stay#and they're delicious to navigate#batjokes
887 notes
Ā·
View notes
Note
Hi there! Annoying anon that loves rambling about the Valeska twins is here again š¤£ Let the discussion continue! š Yeah, I totally get your point of writing such stories as a means of fulfilling wishes. I guess it makes sense from the writer's pov that they want to give these characters a different (better) treatment. Valid point, but still, they don't feel real to me.
(Below this is the rest of the messages, put together. Farther down, below the line, are my responses)
It's like I'm reading a story with a character that's called Jerome/Jeremiah Valeska and looks exactly like him, but it's not truly him (just like you said, at their cores they are bad guys). But it's perfectly understandable and all right that people want to give them a rest from their chaotic lives haha š everybodyās got their cup of tea ā
Damn, yes, these stories are so hard to find! I imagine that writing something of the sort and investing so much in such complex characters can be draining and daunting, so yeah I get the reason why there are not so many fics out there... and OCs are so difficult to write haha you are right. They take too much time and effort š¤£
Yeah, I guess Ecco was not the best example. It's very true what you say about Jeremiah's and Ecco's relationship. In the show it was portrayed as a professional one. So we don't really know if there's anything else beyond that, save for some level of concern. So I guess I should have gone with Bruce instead because, just like you said, Jeremiah went totally bonkers when he realized that Bruce was the only one who saw past his resemblance to Jerome.
Basically, what I was trying to say is that in these fics there's not really that same vibe of evil obsession and lunacy from the twin's side. Maybe just some sort of heightened jealousy when their partner is addressed by other characters, but not in a really "Valeska" way. In fact, it is also strange when Bruce is completely absent in these stories when the twins' obsession revolves around him.
Yeah, there is sooo much to explore, so that is why I am very curious to see how people construe their backgrounds, but usually it's just the repetition of the show with some added scenes and dialogues here and there š
I would love to see something a bit different, but well, I guess I am being very demanding š¤£ Don't worry about it and thanks so much for replying! š I am now doing some research in different sites š¤£
It's a bit weird because even though I enjoyed the show, I have to say I merely watched it to see ma broski boys in action š¤£ so If I wasn't so lazy (and didn't have other unfinished projects) I would try to write something (my mind is already full of vague ideas OMGGG šš¤š), but I don't really know much about other characters or subplots, so I would not be sure how to tackle it š¤ Thanks again for the lovely discussion! š
Ā - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Ā
Hi anon! Donāt you worry about your rambles, theyāre not at all annoying! I find it rather fun to discuss the twins.Ā
Iām sorry youāve not been able to find the content youāre looking for; usually, I always run into comments on Tumblr or Pinterest about how you look for certain fics and when you canāt find them, then itās time to try a hand at writing it yourself. Iāve done that and, even though I enjoy writing, itās still pretty hard, especially to find a drive to do it when I really am not feeling it.Ā With the twins not feeling real, I understand,Ā ācourse I now think Iām at the point where I might read anything if Iām gifted with more content lol (though there are some tags that, if I see them, I donāt touch if I can help it).Ā
I think, usually, with most writers, itās easier to take a character like Jerome/Jeremiah and, instead of doing the tremendous work that comes with trying (emphasis trying) to change them, they do a few things and thatās enough for a road to recovery. Because, most of the time, theyāre not writing to change the character, or even to make it realistic; sometimes theyāre just writing, or they wanted to try a different aspect. There can be so many reasons and sometimes digging deep and getting a character 100% correct isnāt at the top of the list of what you want in that story. Personally, Iāve learned to broaden my sense of disbelief with characters and just enjoy what I manage to find, especially since the Gotham fic-oriented content is sooooo small š¢
After reading your last message, I actually went onto Ao3 and searchedĀ ācharacter studiesā under the characters and yeah, thereās not much, I read a few and I honestly wasnāt sure what to think (not to call anyone out). It reminded me a lot of my years reading batjokes on fanfiction or, again, Ao3 where, if you search long enough, thereās a fic for almost all your needs. There have been some good gems in there that delve into character studies and helping these characters try and become better. Comparing that to Gothamās arrangement of fics is sad, to say the least, but batjokes in all media have a lottttt of years to have such a collection of wonderful content. (Even if youāre only a Gotham fan, stretching out into the actual Batman fandom can be very rewarding, even if your next step is into the Nolan movies or even Batman in general cause you can replace the characters in your head if you really want too)Ā I think one big problem with Ocās is that, in a way, theyāre easy to make, but in the worst way. You can create a character to put in the place you want, a blank space and theyāre just nothing. This comes up a lot in anime type works, where the main character is so blah for the purpose of the audience (reader in our other case) to put themselves in the place of the main character. This also happens in a lot of movies as well, instead of fleshing the character out and allowing them to move and breathe the way THEY would and not how the audience thinks they themselves would. Because of this, ocās can be very flat. There are the exception, of course although I have no examples since I donāt remember the last Oc story I read . . .Ā *wracks brain* yeah no idea. Though Iām sure itās somewhere in my saves.
Even if one doesnāt ship Jeremiah with Bruce, itās very difficult to ignore/brush under the rug that there was definitely an obsession and that originally, during their weeks of spending time together, building the generator, there started a friendship. The first is very obvious, show-wise (and friendship kinda came with the territory) and the gay subtext can be there if you look at it that way. As much as an interesting character Ecco is, sheās both not important enough in the show (sorry Ecco lovers) or to Jeremiah or to anyone for that matter. While with Bruce and Jeremiah, with how their first meeting goās and all the meetings that follow after (very willingly on Jeremiahās part even though Iām sure before this NO ONE was allowed in the inner parts of his bunker for long periods. Probably not even Ecco) the relationship is much more pronounced than anything weāre given prior.Ā I like to think that even though Bruce was manipulating Jeremiah when they first met, he actually did see him as his own person. Even though he, like Jim and Harvey, have personally bore witness to Jeromeās tyranny. (And that only twists the knife harder when Jeremiah eventually loses his mind because both him and Jeremiah saw him as his own person and in a way Jeremiah doesnāt become like Jerome, he becomes worse)
One could argue that since we didnāt see aĀ ātrueā way the Valeskaās love that any type of them showing affection might never seem very Valeska. Unless one looks at their reactions and interactions with Bruce as something more than justĀ āwanting to kill himā orĀ āobsessionā. This would be another reason Iām donāt read much in the oc-area or out of the romanticās lol mainly because the moment they take Bruce out of the picture, everything seems off. Jerome, while willing to divide his attention, only does it with specific people, who are: Jim, Bruce, Jeremiah, and, on occasion, Oswald (though heās much less in comparison to theĀ ābig threeā). Other then them, we donāt see him hyper-focus on anyone else in the show, and if he does, itās for a second and to simply kill them after. If these three arenāt integral to his behavior and actions then things feel flat and out-right ignoring his obsession with Bruce and his inner darkness can be unrealistic. With Jeremiah, this is much worse because in canon, once No Manās Land starts, all he can think about is Bruce. Everything he does in that setting and before this even started was for Bruce. This type of obsession is . . . well, something that canāt simply be ignored, itās a big part of his character and also very integral to just who he is after the spray. It may not be as bad at the start of the spray (because heās too busy rebuilding Gotham in his image) but literally second to that desire is his connection with Bruce. If there were a summary of Jeremiah as a character it would be IMPOSSIBLE to write it without Bruce (same with Jerome though his might be a footnote, depending). So him suddenly focusing on someone else is . . . odd (even with Jim he doesnāt give his full attention too and, in the finale, Jeremiah only starts moving around and doing shit when he realizes that Bruce has come home early and that itās time to finally come back to the spotlight). Especially since heās supposed to be theĀ āJokerā in the Gotham world, which, technically speaking, means this obsession with the Bat (a.k.a Bruce) will only ever get worse from here (not to mention the fact he knows Batman is Bruce because he remembers the prophecy Raās told him, which weāre shown in the finale when he first sees the Bat and commentāsĀ āyouā in a knowing way; this can be argued heās just recognizing that this is what the prophecy was talking about or that itās Bruce but personally I think both cause the prophecy was about both of them.).
Itās hard not to repeat things in canon though, believe me, I know and if you ever try writing a time travel story, itās much worse cause then you have to change literally everything if youāre doing it that way.Ā Nah, you know what you like; the only problem with that is itāll be hard to find it most of the time. I wish you luck in searching! Hopefully, youāll find something.
Same. My older brother introduced me to the show and his way of doing so was first telling me it was a batman show, that I would LOVE Oswaldās aesthetic and that there was a Joker-type character just introduced. I was sold lol. Thereās been a lot of drama with the show though, concerning the twins and I honestly wish theyād just stuck with Jerome or if they did still use Jeremiah that he wasn'tĀ just . . . a backup plan for killing Jerome off. And, if theyād been allowed to go on for a few more seasons, I wouldnāt have been surprised if they would have also killed Jeremiah and a third (never heard of) Valeska twin (triplet) would show up, playing into the overall Joker lore about there having been three.Ā šš¤Øš Which I find humorous because they did so well with Jerome, he was a well-rounded, fleshed out character and, as much as I love Jeremiah, itās hard not to consider what we could have gotten if Jerome had lived *wistful sigh* I wonāt lie that the drama hasnāt affected how I watch it too these days, or at least left me with a lasting impression.Ā I was very invested in the first few seasons, it was a good show, minus the plot-holes and annoying characters (yes, some annoy me and there are some I canāt stand) but when the twins were on screen, it was probably the show at its best. If they had implicated them more so into the main story I probably would have watched all the way to the end (I can admit, Iāve never seen season five, but I saw many clips, have been completely spoiled and DID watch the finale lol and . . . I think I saw some of season four? Maybe, not sure anymore.) because when theyāre also interacting with Bruce, perfection. I could watch that shit for days.Ā
Also, if you did write it, it wouldnāt have to be about other characters if you donāt want it to be. Youāre talking to me, who has never seen the last few seasons and when I wrote my first ficĀ āBlindly Evidentā literally all my scenes I had to LOOK UP because I only knew the base of what the scene was even about lol. So sometimes, you can totally bullshit your way lol and somehow it turns out to be really good and you like it. Or itās just snippets of small scenes with your characters (Iāve been writing a fic like that for awhile because itās fun and easy and yet you can make it so thought provoking because these snippets are so smallll.) I would implore you to give it a go. Even if you have no idea what the other characters are doing or even what their names are.Ā
I feel like this has just become me rambling about Gotham and writing tips at this point lol but youāre welcome~ I am here to try and help and always willing to listen about Gotham and talk (or rant, Iām not picky lol). Thanks again for your ask, anon! Hope you find that content youāre looking for š„°š§”š
#anon ask#asks#Jinx rambles#again lol#Gotham#Jerome Valeska#Jeremiah Valeska#Valeska twins#Bruce Wayne#writers#fics#fanfiction#Archive of our own#Ao3#Jinx goes on tangents and makes comparisons and tries to dig deeper lol#Wayleska#Valeyne#oc's and stuff#Oc's#write what you want guys#make it happen#like i am still trying to do and failing lolol
7 notes
Ā·
View notes