#an extremely female dominated text with a lot to say about masculinity as an opressive force
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lucabyte Ā· 3 days ago
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#@ comment directed to me in a tag. i have not talked abt them anywhere publicly but if u were deep enough in the paint in 2020ish theyre#like not super surprising. i think i wanna get back around to the trolls in my reread (so itll b a while) before i say anthing solid#just so i can go in w intent to pay closer attention again but like#overall have a low opinion on most the troll boys insofar as i see that the narrative seems to also not care for them. they seem to exist#to serve narrative purposes & end up discarded when no longer relevant. ie they dont end up very interesting and thus i view#many fans with suspicion when they have 'boys disease' ie having an outsized focus on the boys of the story despite hs being by the end#an extremely female dominated text with a lot to say about masculinity as an opressive force#tavros and gamzee are the biggest bugbears here (only really beaten out in eyebrow raising by cronus and the male dancestors)#on account of fans of them often downplaying gamzee's misogyny that is core to his role as a charismatic cult leader (or worse#sending trans women death threats when they made the factual assesment that gamzee was written to be a weird misogynist calling it#character assassination etc. man 2020 was wild.) tavros mostly just ends up being an accessory to this crime tbh. though his genuinely#complicated relationship w vriska oft being flattened to villify vriska + an inability to actually read what tavros Says...#like. if you get rid of tavros' quirk. stammering and all. and read his lines. he's kind of fucking rude? and yeah its alternia they all ar#but i have my hesitancies wrt how people seem to infantilise him (a disabled character) to the point of ignoring his dialogue and flaws#when one of tavros' core conceits (u can argue if this is . like. something hussie should have stayed out of. like its not their lane) is#that shitty ppl online will be assholes but will be allowed to get away with it due to unrelated disability. which like. it was 2010 ig#but this is hit upon again with mituna being distinctly a 4 channer with real brain damage and speech issues & all his friends letting him#get away with shit he still clearly has the cognitive capacity to know is wrong. its very messily handled but. i dont rlly like tavros ig.#will b amazed if tumblr doesnt eat these tags i went on wayy too long. but im not putting this in plaintext for obvi reasons#lucabytereads
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idreamtofmanderleyagain Ā· 4 years ago
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Morality-Focused Frameworks Of Discussion As Acts of Control
This is a post in response to a larger conversation Iā€™ve been having with @eshusplayground. I have a perspective that I think would be really relevant to the conversation but I also donā€™t want to derail the specific focus of the following posts sheā€™s been making recently.
(Trigger Warning For Abuse Discussion and Brief Mentions of Rape)
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So Iā€™m in the Hellraiser fandom. More specifically, Iā€™m a Pinhead/Kirsty shipper.
For those of you that donā€™t know, Pinhead is a demonic torturer from hell whoā€™s design is inspired by the BDSM community. Characters who open a magical puzzle box have unknowingly given themselves away to his violent underworld community of eternal torment and depravity. Hellraiser is a film about romantic and sexual horror, and thereā€™s quite a lot in there about abuse and trauma. Kirsty is a traumatized person, and in my personal opinion, very likely a CSA victim.
And I ship these two characters together.
So the subject matter of my particular fandom is extremely intense and niche and complicated to navigate, although YMMV (I have no trouble with this franchise, but I cannot really handle GOT or American Horror Story, for example). After I grew interested in Hellraiser and integrated into itā€™s fandom, my perspectives about the way we have conversations about villainous characters started to have a major shift.
I often see people have these intense conversations (and arguments) about where a particular character exists on a moral scale, with the subtext (or outright text) that if they tip too far one way or another, they can be rendered unworthy of their own subgroup of fans within their own fandom. People who love those characters or find them shippable are then subject to moral judgements.
So how does one apply such logic to a psychosexual torture demon?
The answer is you canā€™t.
The frameworks people online use to have these discussions do not make any sense when talking about my fandom. Hellraiser is a dark horror fairytale presenting disturbing, surreal images and behaviors in order to discuss complex and difficult experiences and perspectives. The monsters within it, like Pinhead, are more metaphor than anything.
Now, my follower count is too low and my fandom is too niche for me to really be on the receiving end of a lot of the cruelty that manifests online about the moral validity of the fiction I enjoy. That said, between the anti-kink TERFS and the younger folks involved in purity culture on this site, I can imagine exactly what it would look like. You know what they would look like.
ā€œYouā€™re an Abuse Apologist!ā€
ā€œYouā€™re an Abuse Fetishist!ā€
ā€œYouā€™re reinforcing sexism!ā€
ā€œheā€™s an irredeemable torturer, youā€™re probably okay with literal real world rape lmao uwuā€
ā€œThis is bad kink representation and youā€™re complicit in the abuse real men do to women because you like this!ā€
Now, setting aside the fact that the canon lore context of Pinhead involves him having a human soul brainwashed by a monster god to become what he is, and is also in a roundabout sense ā€œredeemedā€ in canon, I think most people utilizing this kind of framework would assume that I believe Pinhead can be redeemed in the way online Discourse (tm) means it, because thatā€™s how we talk in fandom about the villains we really like.
I do not want to redeem Pinhead. I donā€™t think he even needs redeeming. I donā€™t even see value in that conversation at all. Redemption is not a concept that makes sense for what he is, or what he could become as a character. The framework of Pinhead as a Real-World-Equivalent Human Male Abuser who Cannot Be Redeemed From His Actions would inevitably dominate all conversation, regardless of the fact that it is inherently incorrect and detrimental to real, robust literary analysis of the narrative he exists within and how brilliantly it actually interacts with male on female abuse as a subject. By nature of itā€™s gross oversimplification and misrepresentation, It ruins the potential for greater, more nuanced and complex conversations.
And thatā€™s the thing: my engagement with this particular story and itā€™s characters has a lot to do with the potential in the narrative to examine how trauma interacts with love, desire and gender politics. Hellraiser has a very unique way of exploring that kind of subject through a storytelling aesthetic that appeals to me (horror/fairytale, gothic romance, etc).
This is about to get personal, so strap the fuck in.
I am the victim of gendered abuse, in that I had an emotionally abusive step father and sexism was absolutely a factor in why that manifested the way it did. I am also a second hand victim of gendered abuse, in that my biological father was a serial stalker and rapist, and other male abusers (or just self-centered family members) caused severe emotional destabilization in my childhood. I grew up viewing adult men as unstable, selfish children. My family endured a lot, and I came to resent the men in my motherā€™ life for not taking on the role of protector and nurturer when she needed them most. I had discovered the great lie of traditional masculinity: in the face of real crisis, grown men were not protectors. They did not hold together the domestic space. They abused or faltered and abandoned us. This was a repeated pattern among several men in different roles. I was often left picking up all the pieces, taking on roles as a child that these men could not. I had to have strength they did not.
My experience of desire for romantic intimacy with men and men in roles of stable, nurturing authority now inherently involves a jumbled emotional soup of fear, pain, and a deep longing that comes from a place of feminine vulnerability, a desire to be taken care of instead of being the caretaker.
The narrative of Hellraiser pushes a lot of buttons for me. It speaks to my own trauma experiences in a very specific way. In an effort to further that conversation, Iā€™m trying to create a piece of art (a fic) inspired by the deeply personal feelings this film gives me.
For me, Pinhead represents the Jungian shadow masculine, a simultaneous mix of fear and desire, the potential for suffering and pleasure, and everything in between. These experiences are inherently intertwined for me. And Kirstyā€™s experiences mirror many of my own.
In other words, in order for me to get out of Hellraiser what I get out of Hellraiser, Pinhead has to be exactly what he is, and everything that he is. Which includes monstrosity. Which includes the potential for change. His place in the narrative must fully, truly embody this conversation I need to have with masculinity, which inherently involves painful, scary things.
Anybody demanding that I either denounce my interest in him as morally offensive because heā€™s a monster in the full sense of the word (and not just the aesthetic one like what is currently trending in Monster Boyfriend fandom), or force a traditional redemption arc upon him as if he were a real life human person who must repent for his real life sins, are essentially saying that I am not allowed to engage with this work of fiction in a way that is transformative for me. And thatā€™s very unfortunate, because honestly, I think my perspective is so much more dynamic and has so much more to offer.
This is not just about basic catharsis. This is not even a power fantasy about emotionally transforming a powerful (white) dude, or ā€œbad boyā€ fantasies, both standard arguments for villain stanning that feels like it has never truly represented me or the complexity of my experiences and interests. This is a full-on conversation and act of self expression I want to have through art about the experience of fear and trauma when dealing with men as a woman who desires men.
And I donā€™t think a person has to be traumatized in order to want to engage with this type of fiction. I want to be clear that my experience is not a justification for my interest (I do not need to justify myself), it is an example of a perspective that gets erased by the framework of these conversations.
To me, the framework of moral validity for enjoying fictional villains and monsters and whatever you please feels incredibly stifling to the complex, dynamic ideas and analysis that I want to engage in, because I, and many people I know, are consistently pressured to structure their thoughts with this framework as the only acceptable baseline of discussion. This is so ubiquitous that when people Iā€™ve known have tried to engage in ways that diverge from that framework, the responses they get are outright confused or direct the conversation right back to the original framework they tried to avoid. Complex conversation gets steamrolled.
Somewhere in the conversation we were all having about acknowledging and discussing abuse and oppression, and acknowledging troubling patterns in media which reinforce the normalization of abuse and opression, some people decided that there was a very serious moral discussion to be had regarding the mere act of liking things which involve dark subject matter and complex, or even monstrous characters. They now argue that there are very clear cut, simple moral frameworks for A) telling stories and B) enjoying stories, and most importantly, that this moral framework is a valid justification for the social treatment and silencing of certain people.
A framework, by the way, which I think is actually not functionally a framework, because like the toxic American fundamentalist christian groups itā€™s thinking is structured from, it does not account for the vastly diverse moral landscape within itā€™s own space. There is no objectively consistent body of knowledge anybody is working from, because morals are derived from the human experience, which is inherently subjective.
Interestingly, no where does this have more of an impact than with marginalized people, and people like me, who want to express something deeper and more meaningful in the conversation about abuse and oppression than what this framework really offers us. To be honest, The more I see this kind of conversation making the rounds, the clearer it becomes that itā€™s a means of control and power game playing. Itā€™s not about morality, but about how morality can be leveraged in order to silence truly diverse and nuanced perspectives and uphold peopleā€™s sense of self-comfort. It is a means of supplanting more convenient and easily digestible understandings of these highly complex subjects that require more intensive, thoughtful engagement, especially when it gets challenging. This kind of rhetoric absolves people of making room for complex and diverse experiences, and reinforces an (at face-value) easy to follow set of moral rules of how we are all allowed to think and feel.
The implication of all of this is that if we all adhere to the One True (alleged) Moral Framework of Fandom Engagement, then we will somehow come out on the other side with all the Good People having a Great Time having Squeaky Clean Fun. And I donā€™t think I should have to tell you at this point how stifling and disturbing the implications of that kind of mentality really are.
Ā Quite frankly, I think a lot of us are very tired of constantly speaking on other peopleā€™s terms.
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