#am i gonna maintag this. i think im gonna maintag this. it took so fucking long ;-;

[irrealisms]

so THREE DAYS AGO i told @simplepotatofarmer​​​ that i would write up my opinions on the bedrock bros teamup “later today”

this was derailed in part because i’m bad at things but in PART because i wanted to make sure that my memory was right and rewatch VODs and get transcripts and so on. this, uh, got long. 

cw for both c!techno crit and c!tommy crit, as well as both c!tommy and c!techno apologetics; that said, i tend to be significantly more critical of techno and less critical of tommy, which is why i haven’t tagged the c!tommy crit.

tl;dr my viewpoint is that they both behaved quite badly, their communication was Shit, and they both treated each other in ways that were cruel, given each other’s existing issues. the way they acted was understandable and sympathetic to me, and in some cases they genuinely didn’t have better options, but it was still a wildly unhealthy situation. i think that you can argue either way on whether tommy betrayed techno, and i think it is inarguable that he hurt techno, but i still think that his decision to leave was correct. i also defend my decision to hold techno to a higher standard than tommy due to age, circumstances, etc. 

yes, i realize this is all a rehash of things that have been debated to death. in my defense, i’m relatively new to the fandom, and also the lore drought is slowly killing us all.

so the first thing i want to address is that the teamup began because tommy broke into techno’s house, started living there, and stole his stuff. this was right before the butcher army, which techno only survived due to dream’s help; if tommy living with techno had caused dream to rescind that help in the future, that puts techno in an extremely vulnerable position. not only that, but techno did not know what had happened in exile. it would be (and was) kind of techno to shelter him, but it was not a moral obligation. this is especially true when you keep in mind that--unlike irl--it is normal in minecraft to start your life with nothing in the wilderness. tommy having to be in that position months after joining the server sucks, but it’s not something that might be life-threatening the way it would be irl.

the second thing i want to address is that... yeah, it can be argued that tommy wanted to just use technoblade. in the video where he moves in, he reacts to the idea of asking technoblade to stay by saying “Are you insane? Why would I want to do that? I hate him. I could just stay, and then, every now and then I go up.” While obviously this changed, it’s important to note that he originally wanted to stay with technoblade, not because of his affection for technoblade as a person, but because staying with technoblade makes him less vulnerable.

but i don’t think this was wrong of him. from tommy’s perspective, he can’t return to l’manberg without being returned to his abuser. he can’t return to the greater dream smp without being returned to his abuser. as far as the broader wilderness goes-- dream is good at pvp and has a specialty (cf his skill at parkour tag in mcc, as well as broadly transferrable skills from his manhunts) of finding, chasing down, and defeating another player; i know i called the wilderness not life-threatening earlier, and that’s true to the extent that tommy’s not going to get hypothermia from a snow biome, but it’s not true to the extent that dream very much wants him back. not only that, but in the wilderness he would be totally alone, and the dream smp has not shied away from the effects of isolation, either in exile or during the current prison arc. sure, he’s “using” technoblade--but not as a weapon, as a shield from his abuser. does this suck from technoblade’s perspective and exacerbate his issues around people only wanting him around for his items and pvp abilities? sure. but was it wrong of tommy? i don’t think so.

okay. now it is time for TRANSCRIPTS and ADDRESSING THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, which is “who betrayed who”. the first transcript is from “Nothing goes wrong”, and concerns how they first teamed up:

Techno: You see, Tommy, I know a lot about putting trust in other people, and having them, having them betray that trust, using me, as a weapon, and then casting me aside when it's most convenient for them. "Oh, just a little threat from Dream, and oh we gotta exile TommyInnit, oh, 'cause Dream will get mad at us," what's the point? What's the point of a government if it sells out its own citizens? It doesn't even work! ...That's why we have to take down the government, Tommy. You wanna be friends with Tubbo? You wanna know what's driven you apart? Why you don't have your discs? It's because of the government! If there was no government, you and Tubbo could be friends, you could have your discs back, there'd be nothing to threaten! ...Join me. Let's destroy L'Manberg. [long pause while Tommy thinks and Techno has an unrelated whisper conversation with Ghostbur] Tommy: You promise if I... if I join you, we don't have to be pals-- Techno: We don't have to be pals. Believe me! Tommy (overlapping): You, you-- hey, listen, listen, you'll help with-- Techno (overlapping): In fact, we, it's not even an option! Alright, just give up on that. Tommy: You-- you'll help me get back my discs. Techno: I'll help you get back your discs, Tommy. Tommy: I won't help you but you'll help me. Techno: You'll help me just destroy the government. Tommy (overlapping): I will not destroy L'Manberg. I won't help you destroy the government. But you'll-- you'll let me-- Techno: Well, tell you what, we'll do some minor terrorism, from which the government can-- eh, you know what, Tommy? We'll get the details on the way. We'll get the details on the way, Tommy, alright? Tommy: Technoblade, I am a huge fan of minor terrorism. Techno: That's just what I wanna hear. Tommy, truthfully-- Tommy: Not major terrorism though-- Techno: Yeah, just, just-- Tommy (overlapping): I don't wanna take down no governments, I'm just, all I'm saying is just-- Techno (overlapping): Just follow me, follow me, Tommy. Tommy (overlapping): Listen, listen! I don't wanna be pals with you. I-- if you promise, promise me, hey, pinkie promise, eh? Techno: Yes, yes, pinkie promise. Tommy: To get me my discs back. If you help me to get my discs back, 'cause, uh, my options are looking real slim, I'll be honest-- Techno: Yeah, your options are pretty terrible now, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie, it's not looking great for you.

Their original agreement was clear: Tommy has a hard limit around helping to destroy L’Manberg, and does not want it taken down; he is, however, willing to do minor terrorism. In return for the minor terrorism, he wants Technoblade’s help in getting his discs back. (That said, Technoblade is not exactly quiet about his preferred goal being to destroy L’Manberg.) They also both acknowledge that Tommy’s in a bad situation and doesn’t have many choices.

The second transcript is from “Tommy Is Betraying Tubbo”, and it covers their conversation in the community house, which includes their renegotiation. I’ll be splitting it into parts, because there are a few things I want to address with it, and it’s really long.

Techno: Tommy, let's take things one at a time, let's destroy L'Manberg, and then we can worry about the other discs, alright? Tommy: Why would we destroy L'Man-- L'Manberg's where I-- why, no no no no no, I'm just getting back my discs, we're not destroying it-- Techno: Right, right, I, uh. [pause] Y'know, Tommy, I think it-- I think it's time I came clean to you, Tommy. You know, when I first found you in my house, you were, uh, you were just like living in the floorboards like a raccoon, and I'm gonna be honest, Tommy, I didn't really respect you back then. You were kinda useless, loud, annoying, British, you know, it's like the worst combination. [laughs] I just thought of that, I thought, "that's gonna be funny, wow." [digression about viewership. PSA: subscribe to technoblade] Tommy: What were you saying though? Techno: Anyway, so, I'm gonna be real-- y'know, I'm thinking, at first I thought you were kinda useless, Tommy, I was just kinda, just kinda bringing you along to achieve my own ends. But, uh... now that we've committed all this terrorism together, I'm starting to think you might not be completely useless! I mean not-- maybe not like above average, but at least average, you know, on the usefulness scale? What I'm saying is, Tommy, I think it's about time I told you that my real plan, Tommy. I am going to destroy L'Manberg, alright? I am going to leave it a chunk error. That country is gone. I am not going to rest until that entire country has been completely obliterated for what it did to me and Phil, Tommy, alright? [pause, Tommy looks out at L'Manberg] And I think you should join me, Tommy. I'm telling you this because I actually- I actually have the slightest trace of respect for you, alright? Maybe not as equals, but, y'know, I think you're worth being honest with, Tommy, because L'Manberg? They've screwed you over as well, Tommy, alright? They exiled you, they abandoned you, L'Manberg is the source of all of your problems. And that's why we need to get rid of it, Tommy.

some of the relevant things I want to highlight here is that Technoblade admits that he has been hiding (...again, not very well) his plans to destroy L’Manberg from Tommy because he did not respect Tommy and was just using him to achieve his own ends. He notes that he does not see Tommy as an equal. they converse more (I have a transcript of the rest of it as well but this is already wayyyyy too long), and then:

Tommy: I don't really... why, why-- Techno (overlapping): You don't have to decide now, Tommy. Tommy: Why have you only just gained respect for me now? Techno: Oh, because y'know, you've actually stood up to Dream, you've actually like done some terrorism, I'm gonna be honest, Tommy, you were kinda useless and annoying when I first met you. But now, you've actually been doing things. The violence, the terrorism, you might go a little bit too far sometimes, Tommy, but you could actually be useful. Tommy: Techno? Techno: You could actually be... dare I say it? ... A friend. Tommy: You know that's all I've ever wanted from you. Techno (overlapping): The choice. The choice is yours, Tommy. Tommy (overlapping): I mean, you remember Hypixel Skyblock, when I'd stand, trying to-- Techno (overlapping): Hypixel Skyblock is now canon-- Tommy: I mean this is-- Techno: It's now canon! Tommy: You remember how that's all I've ever want-- [cuts himself off abruptly] [pause] Techno: The choice is yours, Tommy. But I'm just being upfront with you, that I'm going to destroy L'Manberg, all right? No lies, no deception. Tommy (quietly): ... 'kay. Techno: And I'll understand, if you don't wanna join me. But I'll do it myself. Alright? Tommy: I-- Techno: That country is going to be gone. Techno: You don't have to help me, but I'm telling you it's in your best interest, but it's up to you. Alright? Tommy: Techno, okay-- Techno: That country, it cast you aside, it's made your own friends turn against you... that country caused all your problems. [pause] Tommy (very quietly): Technoblade, I will join you. Techno: Aw, yes! Aw, yes, it's gonna be a red Christmas, weeks after Christmas, actually-- Tommy (overlapping): I, uh, listen to me, listen to me, I'm not-- I, you didn't hear me out, I'm, you didn't hear me out. You didn't hear me out! Techno: Oh. Sorry, was there like a conditional statement? Tommy (overlapping): I'm getting back the discs. Techno: Ooh, discs, yeah. Tommy (overlapping): I'm getting back the discs, yeah, that's, you know that's my thing, but then. It's Tubbo's home, it's my home, it's not finished, it's not ready-- Techno (overlapping): This seems like the opposite of destroying. Tommy (overlapping): It's not ready to go. Well I'll- you said "do you wanna join me?", I'll join you, but I can't-- I mean, you know I need my discs. Techno: Well yeah, we can get you your discs, but that country's blowing up is kind of a separate, a separate condition here. Tommy: But the discs first, alright? Promise me that. Techno: Um. No. Tommy (overlapping): Please. Techno: I mean, I can help you get back your discs, but that country, that country's going, it's going up in smoke, first opportunity. But I will help you get back your discs. So, who has it? Like, Dream, Tubbo... Tommy (overlapping): Just Dream, just Dream, I knew, I was saying it to Fundy, I already knew, I just wanted to know-- Techno (overlapping): Doesn't Tubbo have discs? Tommy: Tubbo? Oh, yeah, Tubbo, and Dre... Tubbo. and Dream. Techno: Yeah, so, Tubbo. Tommy: Yeah, but we don't have to -- as soon as we get the one off Dream, then the one from Tubbo is fine, I'll-- we just need to take away Dream's power-- Techno (overlapping): Nah, I'm not-- I'm taking the first opportunity I get of blowing up L’Manberg, man-- Tommy (overlapping): We need to take away Dream's power. Technoblade! We should totally, dude, we, dude listen to me, we should totally blow up the community house! Like, that would take away his power, that would be the thing that makes him unstable, we get the fucking-- Techno (overlapping): I, I really-- are you saying that the community house is Dream's home, so if we blow it up, he'll be homeless. He'll be homeless for real. Tommy (overlapping): Yeah, he built that, he built that! We blow it up, well, we can't blow it up, oh we could just literally do it off stream, man, that would be so-- would just record it, make a highlight-- Techno (overlapping): I-- I don't know if that's a great idea, Tommy, I'm mostly-- Tommy (overlapping): Five million views, let's do it, let's do it! Techno: I'm mostly just trying to blow up L’Manberg, here, I'm not-- Tommy: Well-- Techno: That's a separate issue-- Tommy: Okay. ... We didn't check on our dogs. [conversation ends.]

In this, Tommy does agree to join Technoblade, who is making it clear that his goal is to blow up L’Manberg. However, this is conditional on Technoblade promising to get the discs first, which Technoblade flatly refuses. Throughout the conversation, Technoblade emphasizes what he is going to do no matter what, which is “destroy L’Manberg ASAP”. He is willing to help Tommy get his discs back, but not to prioritize this over destroying L’Manberg, and focuses on Tubbo and Tubbo’s power over Dream and Dream’s power. Tommy says he is willing to join Technoblade in response to Tecnoblade talking about destroying L’Manberg, but Tommy’s very unclear throughout the rest of the conversation what he thinks he is agreeing to--he talks about L’Manberg being his home, asks for a promise to get the discs first, and focuses on Dream and Dream’s power over Tubbo and Tubbo’s power. The conversation ends without them resolving this.

Also of note is Tommy’s outro to the video:

Tommy: Between us, chat, I really don't the whole, you know, him being all like, "We should just obliterate L'Manberg."  Uh, I actually know that I don't want that at all. Shit, boys. Shit. Well!!! Thank you all SO much for watching[...]

I include these conversations mostly because I want to be clear that this teamup was always doomed. In both conversations, both parties are relatively upfront about their goals and desires. Tommy does not and has never wanted to blow up L’Manberg; he is, in fact, consistently opposed to this. Technoblade does want to blow up L’Manberg; he’s willing to help Tommy only insofar as it aids him in this goal. These are incompatible goals. Both characters were upfront about this from the beginning and teamed up anyway out of convenience to achieve their own ends. Both characters have moments of being unclear or even lying--Technoblade in the first conversation when he emphasizes minor terrorism and says that they can work out the details later, Tommy in the second conversation when he agrees to join Technoblade while Techno is discussing destroying L’Manberg. They also both tend to talk over each other constantly. This is not a situation where I would consider either “Technoblade wants to destroy L’Manberg” or “Tommy does not want to destroy L’Manberg” a betrayal; again, they have both been very clear about this from the beginning. Admittedly, Tommy has not been clear about what he will do if Technoblade destroys it anyway, which is (in my opinion) largely because... he cannot do anything about it. Again, Technoblade’s house and in the presence of Technoblade is quite plausibly the only place on the SMP where he will not be returned to his abuser. It does not surprise me, reading these conversations, that he would help Tubbo try to stop Technoblade from destroying L’Manberg as soon as this was a thing he could safely do without being returned to exile with Dream, because he does not and has never wanted L’Manberg to be destroyed. is it a betrayal? well, maybe. if the situation is that Tommy and Technoblade are on a team together against L’Manberg, then yes, it’s a betrayal, the same way that defecting to an opposing army during a war is defecting. if the situation is that Tommy and Technoblade have an agreement where [Tommy helps with terrorism against L’Manberg] in exchange for [Technoblade helps Tommy get the discs], then--given that Techno was not, as far as I can tell, particularly prioritizing the discs, and certainly did not actually get any--it’s not particularly a betrayal for Tommy to call the deal off entirely. (If he did take actions specifically towards getting the discs back, let me know--I know he says a couple times that the L’Manberg terrorism will help Tommy get his discs back, but this was before he was being particularly honest with Tommy, and most of the terrorism was leveraged into getting Techno items or information in order to destroy L’Manberg. That said, it’s definitely possible I missed something, there are a lot of VODs, and it would definitely be a betrayal to try and get out of an agreement without doing your part after you’ve benefited from it!) Personally, I do see it more as a team-up situation, especially given how much their friendship grew during this time period, so I do think Tommy betrayed Techno, but.. mostly I think that they suffered from extremely poor communication. 

speaking of their friendship: it’s also a betrayal of their friendship, which I think hurts them both worse by the end of it, but... that was inevitable from the start. they were both clear on what they wanted; neither of them compromised or had any real willingness to compromise. they had incompatible goals and values. this is broadly fine in the first conversation, when them being ‘pals’ is out of the question! but by the time of the second conversation? when they’re friends? it hurts a lot worse. this sucks! but… neither of them are particularly at fault in that situation.

and here’s where i put my tommy apologist hat on: while i’m putting aside the question of whose values are right (...because this post is already Too Goddamn Long), I do think that it was the right choice to betray their friendship. their relationship was unhealthy and unsustainable. they didn’t see each other as equals. they used each other. they didn’t listen to each other. I’m very unclear about the canonicity of the streams and the morality of torturing someone if it’s for a bit and played for laughs--obviously, say, taking Antfrost as a “slav” in pogtopia doesn’t say much about anyone’s principles--but most of the “minor terrorism” involved hurting, non-canonically killing, or torturing people. and i think tommy realized this. at the green festival, when tommy said:

Tommy: What am I-- what am I doing?  Tubbo: I- I don't-- Tommy (whispered): What am I doing? [frustrated noise?] [Dream laughs?] Techno: Tommy. Tommy. Dream: Thank you, Tubbo. I really appreciate it. Techno (overlapping): Tommy, what are you doing? Tommy (also overlapping): I'm not-- Techno-- I'm so- I'm-- Tommy: This isn't me, this isn't... I mean, I look around, and I'm-- I'm not the person I wanna be. [incomprehensible] Techno: Tommy, what are you saying? Tommy: [Tries to start words a few times] I'm--[sigh] [Tommy turns away from Technoblade to Tubbo] Tommy: I'm so sorry. Techno: Tommy, we could get out of here, we could pearl out, I'd cover your escape, Tommy. We can still get out of here, Tommy, we can regroup! We can plan for another day, Tommy! Tommy: Techno, Techno, if this is what I've become-- Techno (overlapping): (Oh, we're surrounded) Tommy: Then I don't wanna be me anymore. I-- I'm-- Techno: Tommy, what are you saying? Tommy: I'm sorry. Techno: What do you mean, Tommy? Tommy: I'm with Tubbo. Techno: Heh?? Tommy, when I said-- perhaps I wasn't clear yesterday, Tommy, when I said that I'm going to destroy L’Manberg, and that you don't have to help me, when I said you don't have to help me, Tommy, I meant that you could sit it out, not SWITCH SIDES AND FIGHT AGAINST ME! Tommy: I'm not-- Tech-- well, what am I doing? Well what am I-- we've-- Techno: YOU'RE BETRAYING ME IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING, TOMMY! Tommy (overlapping): You wanna know [? hard to hear] but Technoblade, the discs are-- just-- they-- I [distressed noise?] Techno (overlapping): You just told him to give the disc to Dream! Tommy: I'm worse than everyone I didn't wanna be! [pause] Tommy: I-- You know that-- you know, you know-- Techno: Tommy, think hard, think hard about this-- Tommy: I'm-- Techno: Before you make this decision, Tommy, 'cause you can't undo this, you can't undo this decision, Tommy. Tommy: [sigh] Technoblade, I know what I've done, and I hate me for it. I'm sorry.

I support tommy in that conversation. whether or not that is a betrayal, I support that. I support people taking the actions that let them live with themselves, I support people in staying true to their principles and not doing things that make them hate themselves, I support people in going “I hate myself and this is what I need to do to stop”. I am a tommy apologist, but… I try very hard to support this across the board. I think Technoblade made the right decision for himself on November 16th. I think it was wrong of Pogtopia to expect someone to stand aside and let people do something that he thinks is wrong because they’re on the same team. Are Tommy’s values and boundaries less clear than Techno’s were? Probably. Tommy is also 16 and coming directly out of a severely abusive situation. Quite frankly, I think he was remarkably clear about being opposed to destroying L’Manberg, given the situation he was in, where supporting Technoblade’s actions is the primary thing keeping him safe from his abuser. obviously, technoblade is valid to be upset and angry about this! he just got abandoned to a 1v30! he specifically confided in Tommy earlier that he has trauma around being used as a weapon and then discarded when no longer convenient! but… I can’t condemn someone recognizing that a relationship is bad for them and leaving. I just can’t.

this brings up my final and last point, which is that… Tommy is not in a healthy mindspace coming off of exile. Tommy regularly gets confused about what he wants and who his friends are--I didn’t grab transcripts because, again, this post is already too damn long, but I also don’t think there’s substantial debate on this point. While Technoblade also has a lot of trauma, I think this is not immediately obvious to Tommy, especially because Technoblade’s arguments tend to be calm and principled; meanwhile, I think that Tommy’s trauma probably is obvious to Technoblade, given that Technoblade talks him down from at least two panic attacks that I can remember off the top of my head without checking VODs. While Technoblade’s canonical age is unknown, including to Technoblade himself (implying that he’s quite old, although it’s also possible that he’s young and just bad at counting or keeping track), he’s certainly more mature than Tommy, and in a significantly better mental place. There’s also a serious power differential between them: even if he doesn’t use it, Technoblade has the power to give Tommy back to his abuser; if there was a fight between them, Technoblade would almost certainly win, and might even take Tommy’s last canon life. The worst Tommy has the power to do to Technoblade is steal or destroy his chests of items--which would be bad, certainly, but not really... comparable. This dynamic absolutely informs their relationship, especially given that Technoblade makes it clear that he would in some circumstances be willing to return Tommy to Dream (the infamous “Well that’s going to be a bit of a problem, Dream, because this guy’s with me. […] Unless, of course, you want to call in that favor?” conversation). So while, yes, they both used each other and treated each other badly, IMO, Technoblade had more of a responsibility in this position to do right by Tommy than the reverse, and I judge him more for his failures at it. This is especially true because I believe Techno recognizes this differential to some degree, although he may not realize the extent of the power he has over Tommy due to not being aware of the extent of exile: he says things like “your options are pretty terrible now”, and he was dishonest with Tommy because he didn’t respect him as an equal, which changed when Tommy was able to e.g. commit acts of terrorism and stand up to Dream. I believe that if someone is in an extremely vulnerable position, this gives others more responsibility to do right by them, and makes me more inclined to forgive them for behaving poorly.