#also they include much more obvious homoerotic scenes which is surprising considering this is a very. catholic town.

[irritablepoe]

every time i go to the theatre to watch/listen to (?) sherlock holmes, i realise how watered down the version of bbc is in comparison to the original, like i don't hate the series but there is a distinct difference yk

[fourangers]

Hi Fourangers,

First of all, I love your blog so much. It's like going through a history back when Naruto Manga chapters were released weekly and your reviews were so Golden, Hilarious and spot-on. Am a new fan though (especially an SNS fan), I just got into this fandom only this year. I don't know if you'll answer my ask, but I just wanted to try and ask you few questions and I pray that you might answer me....

1. Since you've written in a post that you were active in the eastern part of the fandom, How was chapter 698 received in Japan? Because this is the chapter I inherently realized they both love each other. Yeah, I was too late but somehow whenever they interact with each other in previous chapters I always find them to be 'Weird' for just to be friends. Chapter 698 is just blatantly obvious that they love each other. Considering Homophobia and Shounen genre, I have no idea how it was perceived over there back then in 2014.

2. Which scene made you to ship SNS?

3. As an SNS'er how do you feel about the ending, where everyone was married off when they were just 19 just to make some shitty sequel??? As a new fan, I felt betrayed and It would've been perfect if they had stopped at chapter 699, leaving an open ending.

4. How do you face with the accusation about Naruto and Sasuke as brothers and we, SNS'ers are Incest shippers??? I don't care about that Indra and Ashura thing. But Naruto himself told he considers Sasuke as his Brother couple of times. And in Chapter 699, Sasuke acknowledged, 'He finally understood what it meant'.... It's the only thing that confuses me and I don't even have an answer!!! Plus, Kishi himself gave an interview that he based Sasuke on his Brother... I really wonder how he gave such an interview when he literally made them wear necklaces with each other's faces.

5. How was Naruto and Sasuke's sexuality perceived in the fandom back then??? Man!! Kishimoto just made lot of comic reliefs on their sexuality by making Sasuke on Sai jutsu, Naruto not interested in Icha Icha but making Reverse Harem no Jutsu, Naruto was angry when Konohamaru made Boy on Boy jutsu whereas he had no problem with him doing it. LOL. And all those homoerotic posters. What do you think about their sexuality, personally??

6. Why did Kishi had to develop their bond as Soulmates with some unintentional or intentional romantic undertones, if he was eventually going to pair them up with girls??? He easily could've gave many such romantic tropes to other girls and keep the bond between N and S as purely friendship or brothers. It still would've made sense.

7. Final one, Was Naruto really Nosebleeding when Kurama made a joke about Sasuke's kiss in Chapter 572???? We had a lot of heated discussion with other shippers where they claim that it was just a splotch of snot.

Sorry for the lengthy ask....... I am so eager to know your answers and I don't want to spam your ask box by sending multiple asks.

Thanks 😊😊😊

Hey yo! Welcome new SNS fan! I'm so glad that you joined us and I'll try to answer as best as I can. I'm not very active here on tumblr (except browsing lol) but your ask was such a delight to read.

1. I honestly don't remember. I think I didn't follow the japanese boards until the eventual 699-700 disaster. People were craving for reactions and I was curious about it too lol. And well...it's been years, I doubt I'll be able to find the reactions from that time. Imo, most readers don't care much about pairings, they just wanted to read about power-ups and abilities and the basic Naruto Vs Sasuke. Though there are some backhanded jokes about how gay Naruto is for Sasuke.

2. Hah. It's going to be very anti-climatic but it was when Naruto and Sakura were eating in Ichiraku Ramen. Naruto just used Rasenshuriken against Kakuzu and he busted his arm. Sakura was healing his arm and her attention was focused on Naruto. I used to be a NaruSaku shipper so I thought "Oh hey! This is the moment that Naruto would have a candid romantic moment!" But nope. He talked about Sasuke. And I was already getting suspicious about Sasuke's feelings towards Naruto ya know? And the whole "SASUKE IS MIINEEEEEE" in Orochimaru's lair. It was that moment I thought "you only have Sasuke in your head don't you, Naruto?" and started shipping SNS.

3. Hooo boy was I surprised when it was suddenly revealed that they had the basic heteronormative, boring marriage with bunch of clones of themselves. Everyone thought that it was almost like a bad fanfiction come true and some thought that it was fake. It was a pandemonium lolololol. I also thought that it was too lame to be true and lo and behold, when it came true I was floored. And then whenever Kishimoto threw new material, I got insanely pissed off because S*arada and B*ruto becoming pairing material is ok because they are a girl and a boy, and then they paralleled with Naruto and Sasuke which are only FRIENDS because they are both men. ARGH. Open ending was what Kishimoto planned from the very beginning but wrote a sequel to earn more money.

In that aspect, I made peace with it because of the whole anime/manga industry. I learned that, as a mangaka, you don't earn a lot of money with selling books, but rather with merchandise and profiting with sales right. And that guy have a family to raise, have two kids (which is hilarious about how B*ruto movie is his self-insert story), he needs a steady income. Also, I read reports about how anime studios are so poor and animators don't receive a decent income not to mention they are overstaffed and tired, and B*ruto is a good money cow for them to earn money so they can invest later on other anime they have more passion about it. So even though I hate this story with a strength of thousands suns, they are putting meal on people's tables and making them pay rents. I'm ok.

4. Lemme roll my eyes because in the Last movie they said that Hinata is related to Kaguya and so is the Uzumaki and Uchiha clan so they are all related woo hoo. But in the aspect of brothers because reincarnations bla bla bla, didn't Naruto himself said that he's no longer that brother, he's himself? Hmm...I gotta re-read it. One day. Maybe. lol. But I'm sure that he said "Sasuke is not my brother but I'm sure we'll understand well as friends" so there. Honestly, there are a lot of interviews out there and a lot of them are fake, so I'd always take the interviews with a grain of salt lololol. I do know from artbooks that Kishimoto wanted to create Sasuke as a rival-esque character and that was it. As he was developing Sasuke and Naruto's relationship, since he liked the whole yin-yang concept, whenever he wrote Naruto's story, Sasuke's was developed at the same time as his shadow.

5. I can tell from Naruto Forums (I used to participate back in that day) MOST of the non-shippers thought it was gay as hell, but you know...it was a relic of that time. While they thought it was gay, they didn't put too much thought about you know? Because it was shounen, and we knew that it was a joke that it couldn't be taken seriously. Of course, in the SNS fandom, we did make more analysis and there were a lot of instance when Naruto and Sasuke's sexuality was questioned. Some other non-shippers also thought that Naruto was totes gay for Sasuke (including a IRL friend).

Imo, Naruto is definitely bisexual in my view. Sasuke I think he's asexual or gay. He's attracted to Naruto, but mostly because of his connection to him, not because of his physical attributes, so yeah...asexual. Or Pansexual. Sasuke is more complicated lmao. Imo, Naruto could be pansexual too, come to think about it. Yeah, I guess both being pansexual can be valid.

6. He developed Naruto and Sasuke being soulmates from the very beginning, that was proven in his comments in artbooks and in the manga. He probably created with the intention of making it purely platonic, going beyond physical ties. Then he shot himself on the foot by drawing Naruto thinking about Sasuke on bed, talking about how Sasuke is cool, meanwhile Sasuke waxing poetic about how Naruto saved him. What gives? Lol. Yeah, I think he got too enamored writing their relationship that he didn't have time to write romantic ones. What I noticed that Sakura's popularity never was really high, so I could see some editors putting their fingers all over it and making her less relevant. Also, Kishimoto didn't know how to handle her, so when she got her time to shine was the whole fake confession disaster. Coupled with Kishimoto sexism and, in his words (Kurenai's flashback), women are useful to spout more babies, women was never really relevant in his story, unfortunately. Even Kaguya who was technically the big bad boss, was never really fleshed out in comparison to Madara. So the null het romantic moments it's not because he wanted to elevate SNS moments, it's more about how he's incompetent about it. It's either Hinata slowly elevating to a relevant status because forced interaction (Pain's sacrifice and Neji's death) or Sakura being obligated to be pining over Sasuke because she's a girl. It's even more painful to see that, if we ignore B*ruto, both girls are shown to be just talking with their kids and dusting shelves, basically being housewives, even though thorough the story (especially Sakura) it was implied that both of them have much more potential than being their husband accessories.

7. It was a splotch of snot. I can confirm myself lol. Whenever the chapter is out and fans would scan it to scanlate it, the editor usually would amp up contrast to max. So usually the lines get much more thicker than usual, when you read the official release which gets straight from the source, you can notice how the lines are more delicate.

Oh lol...but then we also have a lot of controversy about translating style. THAT one is a whole new can of worms to open.

Man I had fun answering your questions! Please send more :P

[janamelie]

LGBT+ Characters

What This Isn’t

A claim of “proof” of the sexuality and / or gender identity of any of these characters.  We don’t need that or anything else to “justify” shipping.

What This Is

A reference post to collate instances in canon which could indicate LGBT+ characters.  In the case of regulars, I won’t include every instance as it would simply take too long.

Rimmer

As I was saying… :p

Honestly, Rimmer is so obviously LGBT+ to me that I don’t know where to start.  How about his reaction to Ace in “Dimension Jump”?

RIMMER: "Commander Rimmer!" I ask you.  "Ace!" Barf city.  I bet you anything he wears women's underwear.  They're all the same, this type, you know, Hurly-burly, rough-n-tumble macho marines in public, and behind closed doors he'll be parading up and down in taffeta ballgowns, drinking mint juleps, whipping the houseboy.

KRYTEN: Sir, he's you!  It's just that your lives diverged at a certain point in time.

RIMMER: Yes, I went into the gents and he went the other way.

KRYTEN: I assume, sir, you are making fatuous references to his sexuality.  If I may point out, if --

Or how about Low Rimmer?  Surely Rob and Doug could have got their point across a little less graphically?

Or if you prefer something less rapey, this passage from “IWCD”.  Unlike the show, Rob and Doug had more time and leeway to explore the characters and this is what they chose to include for Rimmer:

“Rimmer began to regret his outburst. He didn’t like to see his other self upset, and he even contemplated briefly going up to him and giving him a manly embrace. But in a brief moment of homosexual panic, he thought his double might get the wrong idea. Not that he would, of course, because he was him and he knew for a fact he wasn’t that way sexually tilted; so obviously his double wasn’t and obviously his double would know that he wasn’t either, and it was simply a manly embrace meant in a sort of mano a mano kind of way…Perhaps he was tired…Two or three days in bed and he’d be his old self again…Who cared if his copy saw it as a sign of weakness? He’d suggest it anyway.” Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers, Grant/Naylor, pg 233.

And this from the end of the “Better Than Life” novel, when Holly - whose IQ has been restored - comes up with a way to bring Lister back from the dead (no, not as a hologram):

“Rimmer stood in the hatchway and his face yielded to a grin, which in turn gave way to laughter.  Not his normal hollow braying empty laughter, this was an altogether different noise.  This was a noise his vocal cords had never been called on to make before.

It was the laughter of joy.”

Better Than Life, Grant/Naylor, pg 218.

I know some fans read Rimmer as asexual and you can certainly make an argument for that, most obviously in “Marooned” where he describes his younger self as not “particularly highly sexed”.  Of course, that wouldn’t preclude him also being homoromantic or biromantic.

Lister

No-one’s denying Lister’s obvious attraction to and affection for women, but that doesn’t mean that he can’t be bisexual or pansexual.  In fact, his “I’m not gay!” protestations in “Duct Soup” is a fairly common way for people attracted to more than one gender to describe themselves if they don’t feel comfortable using labels.  Given that he was talking to Chloe!Kochanski to whom he’s attracted, it makes sense that he’d prevaricate like this.

And then of course, in the very next episode “Blue”, he dreams about kissing Rimmer.  It’s not only the fact of this, it’s the subsequent scene drawing a direct comparison between him missing Rimmer and Kochanski missing her Dave - her boyfriend.  And despite the ending of this episode, when Lister actually meets Rimmer again, he’s delighted.  Until he realises it’s not HIS Rimmer and even so, he gets used to nano-Rimmer and they eventually become quite chummy.

Not forgetting the chemistry between him and Ace, of course.

Kryten

I know he's a mechanoid, but no-one has any problem reading his relationship with Mechanoid - and later Blob - Camille as romantic and Camille literally says herself that both she and her husband Hector are actually androgynous, which makes Kryten - at the very least - panromantic.

And that’s before we get to his very obvious love for Lister which he states himself in “Back In The Red”.

Holly

Holly was actually conceived as a female character and became male due to Norman Lovett’s original casting.  Sources: “Stasis Leaked” by Smegazine writer Jane Killick and “The Unofficial Red Dwarf Programme Guide” by Smegazine writers Chris Howarth and Steve Lyons.

With Hattie’s replacement casting and later Norman’s return, Rob and Doug may not have intended to create a trans or genderfluid character, but that’s what they ended up doing.

Holly is also bisexual - male Holly was attracted to Hilly and female Holly to Ace.

George McIntyre

It was actually Rob and Doug’s audio commentary on the pilot version of “The End” on “The Bodysnatcher Collection” which alerted me to this possibility.  I know it’s a stretch but I’m including it precisely because I’m indifferent to George as a character and it makes no difference to me whether someone believes this one or not.

During George’s speech at his “Welcome back” party, he says “I don’t want you to think of me as someone who’s dead, more as someone who’s no longer a threat to your marriages - I think Joe knows what I’m talking about!”

We see a man and a woman laughing and the woman playfully pokes the man in the arm.  He stops laughing and looks a bit sheepish.

Rob and Doug comment confusedly to the effect of “Shouldn’t it be the other way round?  This is one of the things we had no control over at this stage.”

Come on, Rob and Doug.  Not only does this scene appear intact in the final televised version of “The End”, you also included extra background on George in “Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers”, showing the events leading up to his death.  Unlike the hologram he replaces, Frank Saunders, there is no mention of George having a wife or indeed any partner, so as far I’m concerned, we shippers can read whatever we choose into this scene.  We would regardless, but the way canon leaves it is particularly open-ended.

Deb Lister and Arlene Rimmer (“Parallel Universe”)

See previous entries.  If their male counterparts are LGBT+ then so are they, plus I always got that vibe from the performances anyway.

Camille

Yes, everyone uses female pronouns for her as that’s how she presents to the crew, but she says herself: “We’re androgynous, but I suppose you could call [Hector] my husband.”

Noel Coward Waxdroid (“Meltdown”)

Mr Coward was gay in real life and his fictional incarnation here greets Rimmer with “Delighted to meet you, dear boy!”  I rest my case.

Nirvanah Crane

And arguably the entire crew of the Holoship according to her speech: “It's a ship regulation that we all have sexual congress at least twice a day.  It's a health rule … Here it is considered the height of bad manners to refuse an offer of sexual coupling … We are holograms.  There is no risk of disease or pregnancy.  That is why in our society we only believe in sex -- constant, guilt-free sex.”

Does that sound as though they’re fussy about the genders of their partners?  It certainly doesn’t to me.  So:

Captain Hercule Platini

Commander Randy Navarro

Commander Natalina Pushkin

Commander Binks

Sam Murray

From the Series V DVD booklet:

“Briefly revived in “Holoship”, it came as a surprise that Sam was male.  In the original pilot script - and Series 1′s deleted funeral scene - deceased crew member “Sam Murray” is said to be dating “Rick Thesen”.  Possibly Red Dwarf’s first gay couple?”

Cop (“Back To Reality”)

I’m sure it wasn’t written as such and maybe he didn’t intend to, but the way Lenny Von Dohlen plays his character’s reaction to the Voter Colonel just pings my gaydar.

Frank Todhunter (“The End”)

I know the conversation in “Duct Soup” (which also includes a reference to a gay crew member nicknamed “Bent Bob” *cringe*) where Kochanski tells Lister that the Todhunter in her dimension was gay is played off as something she made up to take Lister’s mind off his claustrophobia, but she never actually says as much.  There’s nothing to say that at least part of what she was saying wasn’t true.

Ackerman (Series VIII)

In the Series VIII DVD documentary, actor Graham McTavish says he was playing Ackerman as someone who enjoys sex with women “or at a pinch, men dressed as women”.  So onto this list he goes.

Big Meat (“Only The Good”)

I don’t blame you if you’ve blocked this one out as I find the scene almost unwatchable, but he’s the big prisoner who takes to the idea of being Cat’s “bitch” unexpectedly quickly.

Katerina Bartikovsky (“Back To Earth”)

Credit to @clueingforbeggs for noticing that in “Pete Part 1” Ackerman claims to have been “having jiggy-jiggy with the Science Officer’s wife” and connecting that with Katerina being a Science Officer.  There’s nothing to say that the Joy Squid didn’t conjure up the image of an actual crew member.

But maybe the ship has more than one Science Officer?  Well, the way it’s said makes it sound as though there is only one but in “Holoship” Kryten gives Rimmer a mind patch from two officers, one of whom is Science Officer Buchan.  There is no mention of Buchan’s gender so who’s to say they aren’t also female?

Begg Chief (“Entangled”)

“We prefer the ship of green.  And the sexy light man with the lady legs so long and luscious!”

Chancellor Wednesday (“The Beginning”)

Actor Alex Hardy says in Series X DVD doc “We’re Smegged” that he was playing the relationship between his character and Dominator Zlurth with a homoerotic undercurrent and you can see it subtly in his performance.

Dolphy (“Cured”)

All I’ll say about this one is that if Messalina had behaved towards Lister as Dolphy does in this episode, nobody would have doubted that she was into him.

Ziggy (“Timewave”)

Proof that LGBT+ characters in this show work a lot better when Doug isn’t intentionally writing them as such.  Sorry.

Feel free to add any examples I may have missed.

@lord-valery-mimes  @aziraphale-lesbian   @notalwaysweak  @feline-ranger  @downonthepharm-red-dwarf  @hologrammette  @rosecathy  @cazflibs​