#also “The reason” is Baldur's Gate for Wyll

[lucrezianoin]

(The song is "Just a man" by EPIC Ensemble and Jorge Rivera-Herrans)

Imagine tho that this is what they are thinking of themselves (as monsters). But they truly are not.

alternative version because i could not decide

[artist-rat]

decided to turn this main party + durge reveal pic into a series of how they're doing as i proceed in the game :} part two<3

[lesbianwyllravengard]

I love how whenever I see people discuss wyllstarion, in the context of "justifying" why one ships it, there's always that of why Astarion would love Wyll, extensively; bringing up that Astarion said he used to dream of marrying men like Wyll, or that Astarion said wants to feed off of Wyll, or that Astarion would want someone chivalrous and kind who would put his needs first and who would respect his boundaries and his past. Astarion is the fave white boy and so he's shipped with many different people, and this is how people who ship wyllstarion express why he'd choose Wyll. But I almost never see extensive explanation of why Wyll would love Astarion, because of course he would. Of course he'd love Astarion.

[matchapancaekes]

I think about a Wyll-Durge-Karlach polycule every day.

It’s two golden retrievers and a scrungily black cat they found in the sewers.

It’s three people who are trapped in impossible situations, telling each other that they deserve to be free, that they deserve to live.

It’s Karlach teaching Wyll how to care for his horns, and Durge helping him style his hair as they talk and laugh, telling him how beautiful he is until one day he begins to believe it himself.

It’s Wyll telling them bedtime stories as they lay awake, Durge’s head aching and Karlach’s engine hissing, gently rubbing their backs as they all fall asleep in each other’s arms, safe and loved.

It’s Durge protecting them, in the big and small ways. A hand holding theirs before a big fight, a gentle forehead touch to remind them how precious they are, and, of course, offering the heads of their enemies on a silver platter if they but ask. No one will ever make their lovers cry again, not while they’re around.

It’s the three of them, on the tail of some of the worst battles of their lives, diving straight into Hell together without a moment’s hesitation.

If any group of origin characters should have been allowed to have a polycule, Wyll-Durge-Karlach are the only answer and I will accept no others.

[pro-evil-henchman8222222]

Wyll and Vervaine carrying each other: a series of diagrams

[constantvariations]

I get why people say Wyll/Karlach is enemies-to-lovers but it's missing too many of its signatures for me to agree

By nature, E-t-L's are slow burn. A good chunk of the story waits for one party to discover they're on the wrong side/both parties to realize they have more in common with each other than their factions, then a whole other chunk is dedicated to them learning how to trust each other. The higher the stakes in the story, the slower the burn

Yet everything between Wyll and Karlach is revealed and resolved in a single conversation. There are no lasting consequences of that initial animosity. Both are too good to hold grudges and all the fault lies firmly in hands not their own. Karlach trusts Wyll instantly and he her. Their friendship is so immediate that it's easy to forget that we met Karlach with the intent to kill her

And then there's the source of their quarrel. Wyll was led to believe Karlach's a devil seeking destruction and Karlach was just trying to go home. The thing that sets them against each other isn't their own beliefs or loyalties or anything deep seated and personal, it's the chain of command, something they're both eager to be rid of by the time we meet them. While it gives them something in common, it leaves them with nothing to unpack or overcome together

Compare that to the king of E-t-L's, Zutara of Avatar the Last Airbender. Zuko spent most of the show's runtime trying to capture the Avatar to guarantee the Fire Nation's total conquest, something Katara wants to prevent at all costs. When the two are stuck together by happenstance, they lash out at each other only to bond over their lost mothers. Then Zuko betrays her, something Katara does not forget and does not forgive until he proves himself much, much later. Afterwards, they support each other, watch over the others together, and make a damn good team against Azula. Perfect, should have been canon, fuck Bryke

Honestly, I think Wyllach is just Faerûn's version of a meet-cute

[wizardsix]

astarion stans who refuse to try befriending or even romancing anyone else are the most annoying mfs. "I only romance astarion I just can't relate to the other stories" really? you can't relate to gales deep self loathing? his deep love and loyalty for those he cares about? you can't relate to wylls kind heart and desire to always do good, even if it means he's miserable? can't relate to shadowheart blindly following a god, only to learn the truth and reinvent herself? you can't relate to lae'zel or karlach who were lied to and used as weapons their whole lives, but continue to push on even when they're scared? you can't relate to the overarching theme of authority vs autonomy???

it's not difficult, it's just people refusing to appreciate and explore the game to its fullest bc their manipulative sexy vampire is all they need(something astarion actually loathes being seen as btw). but ok, you can be boring and do whatever you want, but don't lie and say the other stories are bad, because they're not. it's simply a lack of media literacy and critical thinking. because to you, if a character doesn't tell you point blank that they're aware of their situation, it's bad writing. missing the entire point that victims don't always realize the situation they're in. keep in mind astarion and karlach are the only ones who got away from their abusers, which is why they tell you clearly and confidently about what happened to them, fully aware that it was abuse. whereas the others give only their tunnel visioned perspective and speak highly of their deity(not caring about themselves, wish to appease them for something in return).

don't get me wrong (seriously, if I see one person misunderstand me I'm going to lose it) astarion is a good character, but people who only like him need to stop acting like he's the only complex and well written one. stop crying when people with brains call you out for being weird about his ascended ending. the game isn't about him. at least try and show some respect to those who worked hard on the game. make an oc and try new things, i promise the fictional vampire won't care if you don't romance him one run. have a drink with shadowheart, dance with wyll, go to a restaurant w karlach, maybe then you'll calm down.

[grimbiliah]

I did all the little guys and me

[simaraknows]

to fill the Bg3 filled hole in my heart I started an origin character playthrough as Astarion and the second I had him talk to Shadowheart she just read him to filth. "You seem needy and like you're used to follow orders" girl excuse me I came here to seduce you for protection

[chronurgy]

Ulder Ravenguard be nice to your son challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

[3gremlins]

helped wyll get out of his pact, now mizora's just hanging around my camp and refuses to leave b/c she claims she's still fueling his warlock skills.

jokes on her tho, he multiclassed into sorcerer at level 3 and is now more sorcerer than warlock lol

[cedarw00div]

started my Iru run, look at the baby

She's so perfect

[box-dwelling]

OK so I am like a day past completing the Ansur dungeon and it's been enough time to let my thoughts on it settle. Spoilers ahead.

For context, first playthrough with a basic tav. I'm a good way through act three and have finished a few of the pc quest lines. Minsc, Jaheria and Astarion are done. I have yet to get the hammer or do the house of grief but I have done sorcerers sundries. Also I haven't refused Ulder yet but it like the next thing I'm doing. Other context is that dnd is a huge special interest of mine. I've been playing for about 7 years straight. Both dming and as pcs and I have played under professional dms before. This does affect how I view the game but it's mostly postively.

Disclaimer, I haven't finished the game so there may be some stuff that ends up being done that I just haven't seen but the quest line says it's over and from what I've read online it doesn't seem like that's the case so.

So let's start off with the pros because I honestly have less to say there

As a dm I can and always do look at the dungeon design. Larian is genuinely really really good at this, and this dungeon is no exception. I loved the puzzles though a few could use some tweaking. They arent all great. But there's ideas there that I will probably introduce in my games some time. A chess puzzle especially is such a great idea. That was so cool and the fact bring gale along means you can get the answer free I'd you don't play chess makes perfect sense. Genuinely great.

I also liked the visual design. I had expected the appearance to be what I was starting to dub in my head as the "character development dungeon aesthetic " given that really in terms of design and function cazadors dungeon, the gauntlet of shar and the sorcerers sundries vaults are very very similar. But this one wasn't and I'm very happy about that. Give me some variety.

The Ansur fight itself, AMAZING. Great boss battle. I loved the hell out of it. I'd have to dig into the code to properly tell but it looked like they used a varient of the colossus fighting rules which while I've actually never run but I have been at tables where it has been run to incredible effect. They're good rules. I'm glad to see them used. It honestly makes me consider running them myself.

Last pro, on the face of it, I like the idea. I like the concept of wylls character development dungeon being about learning about the tenants of being a hero from one he looked up to. That tracks. It's a good place to take his charcater at least in theory.

As for the cons, it's mostly one but it's also a big one that has majorly pissed me off. Because Wyll is in my joint top 3 for favourite characters and they did him so fucking dirty.

I really really hated how they handled the twist with the Emperor. I don't dislike him as a charcater but I think it's at least to me pretty unambiguous that he's a pretty shady and morally grey charcater. Which is fine. In fact, it's actually a pretty interesting way to take Wyll's arc. That he looked up to this hero, internalised his mindset through the chambers and then learns that he was actually a pretty shady morally complex figure that doesn't live up to wylls expectation, that is a GOLD mine of character development. That is absolutely fascinating. Except, it doesn't do that. He barely even comments on it. Just says he's forged into a new hero by the trials while ignoring the person who set them is the very shady figure who has honestly fucked us over a lot.

You know who's another hero wyll probably looked up to? Minsc! And the Emperor is a real fucking bitch about letting him join the party.

This is compounded by the fact his good/bad ending choice rather than being a slow build up like everyone else where they get tempted by power and then have to turn it away, he instead just says "hey I could become grand duke" out of no where and then doesn't even need a persuasion check to get talked out of it like everyone else does.

So, I would be remiss without giving a way I'd fix it. So here is that.

Th ansur dungeon isn't given to us by florrick in the lower city. It's given somewhere else before you get there.

I'd recommend like, it being in a book or something in Wyrms crossing. The location is tied to wyll anyway. Maybe add in his childhood bedroom that he asks to go visit. You can put in some environmental storytelling telling that can expand on his complicated relationship ulder. Maybe the room is bordered up and untouched but when you get inside there evidence of genuine love.

When you get there you get the story of ansurs legend and wyll becomes obsessed with using this as a way to help save the city.

The ansur dungeon then gets basically left untouched. Twist and all.

But at the end of it, rather than just deciding he's going to become grand duke, it becomes a question. He can't become grand duke while Ulder is alive. And Bauldrian the great adventurer became a politician after wards. Give the Emperor a reason to not want ulder alive. Maybe Ulder risks not being able to defeat the elder brain in some way, and tie it into his reaction to Wyll taking a deal with Mizora.

Wyll is now conflicted. If his father dies he can carry on in both his and Bauldrans footsteps. Ulder left his child in command of an army before he was an adult. Can he really be trusted to take care of the city? Of course wyll loves him and of course wyll wants to save him but there's that doubt there. I have been reforged in to bauldarns heir. I could do a better job. I could save more people. He abandoned me. Why should I save him? If he breaks his pact this is also fed into by the fact it puts him at very active threat from mizora. It's not that prevelant. Wyll is wyll he's not that susceptible to corruption but a little bit of doubt, coaxed on by the Emperor is all he needs.

Then the lower city.

Make sure you have to get minsc before continuing his quest line. Have wyll have a reaction to the Emperor 's distrust of minsc. These are two of his childhood hero's fighting. Play that up for some drama.

Then saving ulder becomes the thing that either makes him the blade of avernus or the grand duke. He can either choose to not save his father, take on the title of grand duke and rule the city following in baulderans footsteps or, he can kill mizora and swear his life to killing demons as a the blade of avernus. . Later becoming a ranger just like minsc. Even give minsc a few lines giving him a pep talk about it. Maybe even having him explain that wyll need to be his own kind of hero taking the infulances he has from the past and learning from them to become a better one. If the pact stays he just remains the blade of the frontiers if he saves ulder but can become grand duke if he doesnt.

Then, have ulder apologise and then reconcile. Have wyll learn to actually recognise his father as a flawed man who hurt him but who is also complex. Maybe even have an option for if he chooses to fully reconnect their relationship or not.

The bones of a really really really good story are here. Please, for the love of God, larian actually tell it.

[echthr0s]

Wyll's canonical lines for the Urge resistance cutscene are great but battle-oriented metaphors don't work for Ioannu. so I think he just... sings to her. he's not exactly what you'd call a performance-ready singer but his voice is sweet and earnest, a lingering remnant of the boy he used to be coupled with the steadfast warmth of the man he's become, and it's like aloe on a burn for a little while

[rivilu]

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