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renegadewangs · 3 years ago

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Van Zieks - the Examination, part 4

Warnings: SPOILERS for The Great Ace Attorney: Chronicles. Additional warning for racist sentiments uttered by fictional characters (and screencaps to show these sentiments).

Disclaimer: (see Part 1 for the more detailed disclaimer.) - These posts are not meant to be taken as fact. Everything I’m outlining stems from my own views and experiences. If you believe that I’ve missed or misinterpreted something, please let me know so I can edit the post accordingly. -The purpose of these posts is an analysis, nothing more. Please do not come into these posts expecting me to either defend Barok van Zieks from haters, nor expecting me to encourage the hatred. - I’m using the Western release of The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles for these posts, but may refer to the original Japanese dialogue of Dai Gyakuten Saiban if needed to compare what’s said. This also means I’m using the localized names and localized romanization of the names to stay consistent. -It doesn’t matter one bit to me whether you like Barok van Zieks or dislike him. However, I will ask that everyone who comments refrains from attacking real, actual people.

Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

It’s time to take a close look at Episode 2 of the second game, The Memoirs of the Clouded Kokoro!

Episode 2-2: The Memoirs of the Clouded Kokoro

Remember how in the last episode we vaguely got Barok on our side near the end of the trial by proving Mrs. Garrideb was actually involved in the crime? … Yeah. Forget that progress. It's being undone. Case 2-2 is the first case of the second game which features Barok, which unfortunately means he needs to be 'reintroduced' to the audience and it takes him back several steps in his growth. It makes sense, I suppose, it would've been weird starting a new game with him already being lightly on Ryu's side. Even so, it's a bit insulting how this case acts as if the chronologically previous one accomplished nothing.

So anyway, this case flashbacks to something which supposedly happened right after the first game's fourth case. The day after Soseki's acquittal, even. Turns out, Soseki awoke to find one of the other tenants in his building dead and asked Ryu for help, but (S)Holmes tagged along. Gregson is at the crime scene, keeping an eye on the place and on Soseki in particular since he's suspicious. (Sure, Gregson. Sure. Has nothing to do with the Reaper's curse, probably.) After some investigation with (S)Holmes, Gregson has enough evidence to actually arrest Soseki, which definitely feels like a step backwards. A bit later, it turns out the victim is Not Actually Dead Yet. Again! The Great Ace Attorney really enjoys throwing us for a loop by pretending we're in for another murder case.

Anyway, during the course of the investigation, I found two mentions of Van Zieks. The first is when you investigate the broken glasses and bottles in the victim's room. Susato is immediately reminded of Lord van Zieks.

And when examining Garrideb's old army uniform, Susato points out it might suit Lord van Zieks.

Haha, as if his usual outfit isn't ostentatious enough already. So we learn that Susato doesn't have a very high opinion of him at all, and I should hope it's not still related to that time he called detective novels pathetic. It's fun of them to refer to him in an investigation that he's not involved in in any way, especially when they don't know yet that he's the prosecution again.

Speaking to Soseki in the gaol, we're once again told that he's had a dreadful time in England so far. He sees foreigners everywhere and he's sure they're all laughing at him. He's been so on edge the past year that he's moved 'more times than he can remember'. So once again, we're reminded that racial prejudice in 1900s England is a focal point of this game's story. Once the conversation is over, Gregson appears to let the gang know that the victim has regained consciousness and is accusing Soseki of poisoning him. We're going to trial for an attempted murder charge, y'all!

The next day, in the defendant's lobby, Susato comes bursting in with the dreadful news that Barok van Zieks has once again taken on the prosecution. It's definitely safe to assume now that either Ryu or Soseki is the reason he's taking on these not-really-murder trials when he normally wouldn't. As I mentioned before, this is his reintroduction in the second game and so the game feels compelled to remind the player of what went down in case 1-4:

He sure did! The game also once again reminds us what the Reaper's Curse entails, and that perhaps that's the reason why Soseki is on trial yet again. He's doomed, perhaps. Susato also informs us that (S)Holmes is running late, just as he was two days ago, and Ryu thinks that's a good thing because if the Great Detective were there, Ryu might come to rely on his help.

… I suppose? He already relies on Susato for help and I feel like that would warrant far more 'preying' from Van Zieks than relying on a male, adult British detective for help. Though knowing (S)Holmes, he'd end up stealing the show and taking the words from Ryu's mouth, but that doesn't seem to be what Ryu's worried about here. I suppose the main point to take away from this remark is that Ryu wants to do as much as he can by himself. He wants to appear strong in front of Van Zieks to avoid presenting an easy target, and I think this might actually be the first time we see a sentiment like that from him. Is he afraid of Van Zieks? Does he actually care about the man's opinion? Anyway, he swears to show Van Zieks what a Japanese lawyer can do.

Inside the courtroom, Van Zieks does the usual prosecutor spiel about how the defense needs to be ready for defeat. Ryu thinks to himself that Van Zieks has a particular animosity towards Japanese people for some reason.

Good thing we got a second game in the series, eh? So because the defendant was on trial only two days ago, the same jurors were chosen where possible. The only juror not returning is Mrs. Garrideb, who's too busy being in prison. Her spot is now taken by a very fancy lady we later learn to be the wife of the Altamont Gas Company's owner. She may as well be the CEO herself with how she's acting, though. Anyway, Van Zieks addresses the jurors directly.

“However, the innocent verdict afforded to this eccentric Nipponese before... has had dire consequences. Did the accused repent for his wrongdoing in that affair? Far from it. Instead, he used his freedom to perpetrate a most blood-curdling crime!”

Van Zieks makes record time by taking off his cloak immediately after this line. He's gone straight into overdrive. The witnesses summoned this time are Inspector Gregson and... Soseki? It's very irregular for the defendant to be testifying, especially this early in the trial and especially by the prosecution's request. I can't really make much of it. It feels like the only reason Soseki is testifying is for this joke:

Also found when examining the testimony is a remark from Van Zieks that I honestly found shocking in how ferocious and scummy it is.

Unnecessary, that remark. It didn't need to exist at all in my opinion. So after Ryu shatters the testimony and scatters Gregson's fish 'n chips, Van Zieks calmly pours himself a glass of wine. I have to be honest, by now whenever he does this I'm left wondering what he'll do next. Will he crush the chalice? Will he throw it? Will he actually take a sip? The versatility of the action and unpredictable nature of Van Zieks add a bit of suspense. Turns out, his mind wandered during the testimony.

And then he ends up crushing the glass in his hand anyway. Alas, poor chalice. We knew it. So after a bit of debating back and forth about whether Shamspeare drank the supposedly-poisoned-tea after Soseki left the room, Van Zieks suddenly falls silent. We get three different, consecutive frames of him going “......” and when the judge asks what's wrong, he says this:

Supersonic hearing, this one. That is, unless the carriage entered the courthouse and literally pulled up in the hallway outside the room? Haven't we learned our lesson from the last time a carriage was driven into the Old Bailey?! So Shamspeare was apparently subpoenaed by the prosecution and has shown up to testify (with his doctor's permission). Bad news for us, since he's the one accusing Soseki in the first place. There's also a second witness to support Shamspeare's insistence there were no other visitors to the room and therefore only Soseki could have poisoned him. After that testimony is over, Van Zieks gets his wish and all the jurors vote guilty.

Van Zieks really seems to think that Soseki is a terrible person deserving of justice, huh? He was right there during the previous trial, saw Ryu prove without a shadow of a doubt that Soseki was innocent and still insists that justice will be done “this time”. Calm the heck down man, you're the one who sided with us when Mrs. Garrideb needed to testify, remember? And here comes another example of the game pretending the previous trials didn't leave an impact; when the Summation Examination is brought up, it's with disdain and this remark:

Bro, we used the Summation Examination successfully like five times already. Sit your butt down and watch the show. The jurors once again give prejudiced reasons for their decisions:

And unfortunately, instead of changing their minds by proving Soseki is a morally upstanding, innocent citizen, Ryu instead gets through this Summation Examination by basically proving Shamspeare is a worse person than Soseki. That's... not the direction you should be taking here, narrative. After convincing four of the jurors that Shamspeare is a fishy liar, Van Zieks flings another chalice of wine in frustration. The judge still thinks he could technically pass a ruling on the trial, since the new information didn't exactly disprove that Soseki is the culprit, but the jurors have been influenced so thoroughly that they can't let this new info go ignored. Testimony from the Altamont Company is allowed! Van Zieks thinks it's a waste of time, of course, and if this were reality it would be. Since it's an Ace Attorney game, we know Shamspeare's gas thievery is bound to somehow be related to the incident. Van Zieks flings yet another chalice after hearing the testimony (how many has it been already? Five?) and very shortly after, he tosses the entire bottle over his shoulder. Susato points out that he seems to be in a violent mood. I feel like someone must've pissed in his oatmeal that morning, because I've got no real explanation for why his character regressed this badly in the course of what chronologically was only two days.

Van Zieks flings two more chalices as the testimony progresses to prove that Shamspeare made fake coins to fool the gas meter. At the end of it all, he supposedly 'throws his hand up in despair and happened to catch his hallowed bottle along the way', flinging yet another one of those into the gallery. I'm starting to feel very bad for the people seated behind him now. Is the game overdoing these quirky animations to compensate for his regressed attitude? Because I'm not sure it's working... Van Zieks continues to insist that the situation hasn't changed and only Soseki could have poisoned the victim, so he calls for immediate adjucation. The game gives Ryu the option to either object or wait and see, and I have to be honest, this gave me pause. After what happened with the penalties in case 1-4, I was sure Van Zieks might dish out more punishment for waiting and seeing. Turns out, he doesn't. Ryu points out that Shamspeare likely used the tea to make these fake frozen coins of his, meaning there's still tea left at the scene of the crime which can be tested for poison.

Head in my hands right now. Again, I get it, they basically had to reintroduce Van Zieks to newcomers of the game (however few there might've been) so they had to regress him a bit, but I really don't like this. He honestly felt like he'd grown at the end of 1-4 and the game's not only undone it, it feels like they've made him even more of a scumbag. This line and this gesture honestly doesn’t quite correspond with the character established in the previous game. Anyway, court adjourned till the next day so the police can test the tea for poison.

During the investigation segment, we get a conversation that I'd quite honestly forgotten even exists. Turns out, (S)Holmes and Van Zieks are acquainted! ...or are they? (S)Holmes says he 'must pass the time of day with Mr. Reaper again, as it's been too long' and when asked whether they're acquainted, (S)Holmes replies that there isn't a person in the world who doesn't know his name, expertly dodging the question. Naturally, a new conversation topic opens up about it, so we can still attempt to needle more details out of him.

He explains the history of the Reaper's curse a bit more. Previous defendants found not-guilty would 'disappear from the capital' by falling under a passing carriage, drowning in the Thames, succumbing to a sudden fever... Etc. Susato points out that if those rumors are true, then surely the obvious conclusion would be that they were killed by Van Zieks's own hand. (S)Holmes points out that's impossible, since Van Zieks was already investigated on the matter before and for every single incident, he had a solid alibi. (This... doesn't disprove Van Zieks had anything to do with it, but okay (S)Holmes. Sure.) (S)Holmes also rubs it in yet again that Van Zieks retired from the courts five years ago and didn't return until the day Naruhodo arrived. I honestly don't know why they keep bringing that 5 year hiatus up in every single case, because as far as I can recall it was never fully explained or relevant.

I love how “foul smell” is wedged in-between those two topics as if it's also related. Anyway the conversation continues when Ryu brings up that Van Zieks seems to have a particular disdain for Japanese people. Susato demands to know whether (S)Holmes knows a bit more about it and while he's silent at first, he relents and tells us a tale (which will apparently be forgotten by Ryu and Susato in case 1-5). Van Zieks “chose to enter the legal profession ten years ago, but before that time, the man's closest companion hailed from the empire of Japan”. Which is a wording that baffles me, because it implies that Van Zieks chose to enter the legal profession at the same moment that Japanese person betrayed him, which we know is not the case. He was already in training to be a prosecutor before that, otherwise how could he possibly have prosecuted the Professor trial? Ryu is shocked and asks to know more, but (S)Holmes says the veil on the events from the past will be lifted soon enough. I'll get back to the implications of what this means for Van Zieks's backstory when we hit this exact same reveal in case 1-5.

Van Zieks is mentioned very little in the rest of the investigation segments. We only learn that he tasked Gregson with finding new clues, much to Gregson's dismay, as there isn't much to be found. The Inspector does immediately leap at new information when we uncover it, which implies he's eager to either please Van Zieks or avoid being scolded by him. I'm assuming the latter, but it's also possible Gregson feels guilty over the whole Reaper thing and Klint's autopsy, and is now compensating by working his hardest to fulfill Van Zieks's requests.

At the very end of the investigation, when evening falls, (S)Holmes reminds us that “it'll be hard to escape the grip of our friend, Mr. Reaper”. The next day, in the defendant's lobby just before the trial begins, Ryu thinks to himself that he doesn't believe in the legend of the Reaper any more than he believes in the convict's curse Soseki keeps mentioning. What's interesting here is that Ryu isn't dreading the confrontation anymore. After the McGilded trial he seemed genuinely intimidated by the concept of going up against Van Zieks (not because of the racism but because of what happened to his first defendant), but now he's not so hesitant anymore. He's beginning to see that Van Zieks can be defeated, that the Reaper thing is nonsense and that protecting his client is a fight worth fighting.

Into the courtroom we go for day 2 of the trial! When the judge asks about the results of the tea test, Van Zieks is silent for a moment. He pours himself a glass of wine, asking for a moment to “savour a liquid of a more sanguine hue”, then refers to Gregson for the full report. Gregson confirms no poison was found in the tea remains, but the prosecution wouldn't be the prosecution (and the game would be pretty boring) if they didn't have a backup plan. When Ryu proclaims Soseki is innocent, Van Zieks accuses him of jumping to conclusions, “a typical Nipponese reaction”. It's also a typical prosecution reaction to be hypocritical, no surprises here. He throws his chalice (first one of the day) and summons Shamspeare back to the stand to testify about how Soseki's unpoisoned and undrank cup of tea had been used to make the ice coins.

There's some lines here that I thought I might as well include:

“Yet on occasion, tedium distracts me and I pour more times than I intended until the bottle is dry.”

You know, it occurs to me that this drink is pretty much confirmed to be wine. He's very extra when talking about it himself, but he had his silly little wine analogies in the previous case and Susato referred to his glasses as “wine glasses”. And you would think it's obvious that it's wine, but we know Ace Attorney's long history with 'grape juice'. Either way, this dialogue leaves a pretty harsh implication that Van Zieks drinks alcohol simply to distract himself from troublesome moods. Sure, he says “tedium”, but this is a stoic prosecutor in the year 1900. They referred to depression as “melancholia” back then, and since he doesn't appear to have any friends, I expect he experiences “tedium” quite often outside the courtroom. He apparently set a rule for himself not to fill his glass more than seven times during a trial which, in turn, implies he's aware any more would cause problems. All of this is moot, of course, since 80% of the wine he pours for himself ends up on the floor between shards of glass. Still, though... Zieks, are you okay?

I don't think he is, because he pulls a very dirty trick here. Ryu proves Soseki drank all his tea and therefore it couldn't possibly have been used, so Van Zieks insinuates to Shamspeare that perhaps he misremembered using the tea from Soseki's cup and instead used tea still left in the teapot. An excuse Shamspeare happily takes, of course. Not gonna lie, I got angry, not because it's a dirty trick but because it's inconsistent. This is the very same character who all but dragged Mrs. Garrideb down from the juror bench to testify when it became clear she likely threw a knife out the window. And now he's feeding slippery excuses to a man who's very clearly lying about all sorts of things? What??? And remember this incident, because I'm going to be referring back to it later.

He crushes another chalice, removes his cloak and continues to insist that we should believe this thieving liar at the witness stand. The jurors for some reason buy the baloney served to them on a tinfoil platter and even twist Ryu's sentiments around, with some bloke going as far as to interpret the situation as 'the lawyer lad believes anyone who steals gas deserves to be poisoned'. Summation Examination gets very funky this time around, with the outcome being that Shamspeare probably blew the gas pipes (s-snerk) and the poison was laced on the pipe.

Van Zieks pours himself a glass of wine and pretty much immediately flings it, saying these are all empty assertions without a shred of proof. When Ryu presents the picture with the skin prints, Van Zieks once again breaks the rule of the prosecution staying silent during Summation Examination to point out that skin prints cannot be used as evidence, since that method is not recognized by the court (yet). Aaand he crushes yet another chalice in his hand.

Susato claims it was never meant to be used as official evidence, it was only a tool to demonstrate a new possibility to the jury. Jumping through some loopholes here, we are, since the picture is clearly in our Court Record as evidence. But, well, the prosecution cheats too so what's the harm? Some jurors vote not-guilty, but there's still one more that needs convincing on order to keep the trial going. Ryu says he has a witness who's already testified that the pipe-blowing incident did indeed occur that night, as Soseki stated the other day before the court that his stove went out in the dead of night. (Hang on, is this why the narrative made him testify alongside Gregson?) With that the majority of the jury votes not-guilty and the trial has to continue, but Van Zieks is extra rattled now. (Another bottle goes soaring.)

He once again reminds the court that skin prints aren't admissible evidence and therefore, there is no real proof Shamspeare put his mouth to the pipes (ghghhh I'm sorry this is such a silly thing to have to type out). Ryu asks for an investigative team to test the mouth of the gas pipe for poison, but since it would've evaporated by now, that's a no-go. Also, Van Zieks says that “what appears to be simple is my Nipponese friend's mind” and that's a scumbag point. Ryu attempts to turn the trial around by claiming that Shamspeare attempted to kill Soseki, making the defendant the victim, but Van Zieks ain't having it. The aggrieved being the accused is an interesting notion, but doesn't change what actually happened. In fact, if anything, it establishes a motive for Soseki to lay a trap for Shamspeare. Because who else could have known about the gas pipe trickery and put the poison there, right? Why, the true culprit, of course.

Our man Van Zieks really doesn't like (S)Holmes, huh? A tidbit which the games will never bother to explain! Either way, Ryu raises the name of Olive Green, the victim of the previous case. And I gotta say, I do genuinely like the way they integrated these two Clouded Kokoro cases together. The chronology of everything that went down is very fun to decipher, but long story short, Olive Green was at Briar Road the day she was stabbed for a reason and knows more about the 'convict curse' Soseki and Garrideb kept mentioning, so let's drag her into court! Van Zieks agrees to subpoena Miss Green in order to 'see his Nipponese friend's farce through to its conclusion'.

So during intermission some more evidence is handed to Ryu and when trial resumes, Van Zieks continues to be his usual self.

“The prosecution has tried to extend every courtesy to this amateur newcomer from dubious Eastern shores.”

Ryu sweats bullets as he meekly thanks Van Zieks “(for his backhanded consideration)”, but once again the judge is the one to call Van Zieks out on his attitude.

Amazing. It's so refreshing to see a judge who actually disagrees with the prosecution's haughty attitude problems and acknowledges it has no place in a courtroom. Nothing against Udgey, because we all love Udgey (and his Canadian brother), but this man actually grows and learns. So Olive Green takes the stand alongside Shamspeare (maybe not the best idea since Ryu just accused her of trying to murder this man) for dual testimony. When Green brings up what a dreadful ordeal the knife to her back was, Van Zieks says this:

Hang on, empathy? He's giving her advice? This reeks of humanization! Green seems taken aback and thanks him for his words, so the sentiment was genuinely accepted. This in itself is a very nice scene to see in action, similar to Van Zieks allowing Roly Beate to keep his job. Unfortunately, Van Zieks's character is in a wild rollercoaster of moral inconsistency during this particular case which sours the experience somewhat. Case in point:

YOOOU hypocrite! This actively angered me, because at the very start of this same trial day he was personally feeding lies to Shamspeare. Now he's warning Green not to lie? It gets even worse a bit later on when Green gets cornered about stealing the note, she asks him whether it could all be some sort of misunderstanding, and he says:

ACTIVELY FEEDING SHAMSPEARE A LIE. THE VERY SAME DAY. I'm all for prosecutors using dirty tactics. It helps to juxtapose them further to the honest defense attorney we play as. However, it needs to be consistent. Either a prosecutor condones a witness's lies to help their case, or they feel that they're above it. The third, most used option is for them to start off condoning it, only to learn that truth takes priority over victory. This sloppy back-and-forth morality that Van Zieks has going on here is insanely frustrating, so it's no wonder some players end up disliking him. It honestly feels as if they rewrote this case so many times, they screwed up the exact growth trajectory Van Zieks has.

Anyway, it seems Van Zieks is suddenly fully on our side now to help Ryu prove that Green was in Shamspeare's room and laced the gas pipe with poison. And I mean help help. When the judge points out that if Green had laced the pipe the very same day she was stabbed, the attempted murder would have happened six days ago. Van Zieks is the one to say “Perhaps not, My Lord” and explain Briar Road was full of police at that time. At this point, Van Zieks and Ryu (and also Susato) actively start to take turns to explain the proper chronology of events. So the defense and the prosecution are in perfect sync right now, working together to explain the whodunnit. This is the ideal outcome to any trial, usually not seen until the last case of the game, so it's curious that this dynamic abruptly shows itself in a case like this. Van Zieks does still have one moment of gaslighting when he claims Ryu may have inhaled some dubious gas, causing his judgment to be clouded, since there's no motive behind Shamspeare's attempts on his fellow lodgers. A matter that's very easily resolved, of course. Once the name of Selden is brought up, Van Zieks continues our little game of back-and-forth-truth-reveal until (S)Holmes shows his face.

“Your usual haunts are the filthy backstreets of the capital, are they not?”

To which (S)Holmes replies that it's been too long, and Van Zieks's complexion has worsened since last they met. Alright, so Van Zieks and (S)Holmes definitely have met in person before, some undetermined amount of time ago. You'd think that going by (S)Holmes's friendly attitude they might've even been friends once, but our great detective is like that towards everyone. This is evidenced by an earlier encounter with Gregson where (S)Holmes insists they're friends and Gregson says that they're not friends, to which (S)Holmes quietly agrees. So really, this little exchange tells us nothing about the history between the great detective and the Reaper.

Some shenaniganry, a breakdown and admittance to guilt later, the court is finally ready to deem Soseki innocent. Van Zieks once again has some interesting lines here:

“And one I certainly didn't envisage walking... with you.”

Considering he attempted to trip us up for most of this walk up until the very last stretch, I don't like this remark very much. It feels very unearned. This is another one of those things that would've been more suitable in the last case of the game, but instead it's being crammed into a messy mid-game moment with the pretense that Van Zieks learned a lesson about being our ally.

In the defendant's lobby, the game basically gives the exact same dialogue as at the end of the original Clouded Kokoro case; that Soseki is returning to Japan and hopes to pen his own literature there, with the rest of the cast pointing out that the Reaper's Curse must factor into his decision to some degree. So we're still holding onto that question of whether Soseki will escape an untimely death or not. Anyone who's already played the last case of the first game will know the answer, of course.

So to summarize... I genuinely didn't enjoy Van Zieks's portrayal in this case. It really feels as if something went horribly wrong and they got some notes mixed up about where his character was already headed in the previous game. It's a crying shame. There was a lot of potential for a case set between 1-4 and 1-5, but they really dropped the ball when it comes to consistency and I've no doubt that it reflected badly on people's opinions of him. Though I think when we return to the first game for The Unspeakable Story, everything will right itself out again to some degree. Stay tuned!

#dgs #dgs spoilers #tgaa #tgaa spoilers #barok van zieks #MAN I got frustrated with this one #what happened here???

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redrascal1 · 3 years ago

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Why being permabanned from the JCF was one of the best things that could have happened to me

Ever since TFA I’ve been contributing to SW forums, because it’s interesting to see other’s opinions and also a source of information. Naturally not everyone agrees with you, so I’ve often crossed verbal swords. I quit one forum after being ‘warned’ for defending myself against a Kylo hater rather than reporting him; largely because I’ve never liked the idea of reporting anyone...it just isn’t me. I’d rather stand up to them instead.

Everyone is entitled to like or dislike a fictional character or ship, and entitled to argue the point. But I do not think I have ever come across such toxic hatred for a fictional character and those who like him as I have on the Jedi Council Forums.

I have been accused of ‘sexism’ for saying I didn’t like the way TROS ended with Rey as a perennial virgin( ironically I personally am, and likely to stay that way as I’m asexual...) because I found it unnatural (including myself in that) as Rey had shown a deep desire for family and children. By having her embrace the tired old ‘space monk’ code of the Jedi she is forever denying herself that. I have had the weary old ‘promoting the sexual abuse of women’ rubbish aimed at me because I was a reylo - until they destroyed Rey and reimagined her as a horrible judgemental prig. All this I’ve experienced before so I’m used to it...but what I really find disturbing is the attitude of Finn fans. And two Finn fans in particular.

I’ll call them A & J. Both are women. One confirmed white, not confirmed by the other. And their behaviour towards anyone who likes Kylo - even those who aren’t reylos - is nothing short of bullying.

A is a huge Leia fan. If you have the audacity to point out that the character was a neglectful mother, which Carrie herself confirmed (’ I never should have sent him away’; Leia’s own words) then immediately A accuses you of rampant sexism, and ‘how DARE you ‘demonise’ Leia like that!’

You are then attacked for saying a mother should not have a career (I never said that) and that Kylo was an ‘overprivileged brat’ who deserved ‘everything he got’ for the way he treated his ‘wonderful, heroic parents.’

A has chosen to ignore the fact that during the promotion for TFA, the cast actually stated that Han and Leia were less than stellar parents. Heroes, unfortunately, often are. Leia was focusing on the rebuilding of the Republic and Han was uncomfortable around his son because he was FS. Neither Harrison or Carrie, both parents themselves, were unhappy with this. It’s stated in several ‘canon’ sources. Which A has chosen to ignore, insisting that Bloodline pointed out Kylo as a ‘happy, normal’ child when that was what Leia believed him to be, despite not being around enough to know what he actually felt.

And not one mention of how it was TROS who truly demonised Leia. Whereas both the previous films showed her failures as well meaning mistakes, TROS showed her as a woman who chose not to train her own son when she was capable of doing it herself. It assassinated her character beyond repair and I often wonder if Carrie would have agreed with Leia being portrayed like that if she was still with us.

What worries me is that A is married and a teacher by profession - and also a mother, in real life. And she made one of the most disturbing comments I’ve read, that it’s a ‘good thing’ for women to put their careers before their children as it shows them ‘they are not the centre of your universe’.

We are entitled to like/dislike fictional characters.....but I’m really spooked because this comment by A has nothing to do with SW but is her personal view on real life. And I don’t think any parent, male or female,should put their careers before their families.

And ..then there is J, a dedicated Finn and JB fan. Again, her own choice. But does she really have the right to accuse anyone who doesn’t like either of being a card carrying, knuckle dragging white supremacist?

She accused me as ‘putting the white character before JB’s role as ‘black male lead’ because I simply said the ST ‘should have been Ben’s story’ in a Finn thread. Later, I was permabanned for mentioning Kylo in the same Finn thread - despite other posters often mentioning Kylo, Rey and Finn in threads devoted to other characters. But it isn’t just me. Anyone - anyone - who says the slightest negative thing about JB, such as calling him out on his horrible SM posts after TROS, is accused of racism. Anyone who criticises the Finn character is seen as racist. And although yes, I agree Finn was poorly handled in TROS, I can’t help but get angry when they accuse Rian Johnson of ‘destroying’ the character’ in TLJ when he gave him his own story arc and love interest and did a damn sight more with him than Abrams, who saw him as a lovesick groupie whose role was to follow Rey around shrieking her name every five minutes.

Most of all, I am heartily sick and tired of them accusing AD and Kylo of ‘taking Finn’s rightful role off him’

Excuse me? Kylo had nothing to do with it, he was established as the villain and it certainly wasn’t AD’s fault. He simply played the part. Finn was on the ‘other side’. If his character was reduced it’s down to the survival of the Poe character (some fans, to their credit, have also said this) who was slated to be killed off but wasn’t. But if anyone ‘stole’ anyone’s thunder it’s Rey - she was meant to be the main protagonist of the ST, not Finn. Kylo was the ‘villain’. Finn had more screen time than Kylo did in all three of the films.

Boyega is simply mad that he wasn’t Rey’s romantic love interest, despite DR herself stating the characters were meant to be ‘just friends’. He wasn’t interested in the fact that Finn had two beautiful ladies interested in him, he wanted to ‘lay the pipe’ with Rey. And this lies at the heart of his dissatisfaction with his character’s direction. but is has nothing to do with AD or the Kylo character. Finn fans refuse to accept that as the blood descendant of the OT characters of course Kylo/Ben had to have a major role in the ST. Finn was never conceived as a ‘lead’ character, and it is both spiteful and unfair for JB and his fans to assume it’s because of his ethnicity.

I’m not the only one who has been targeted by J...she has driven three posters to my knowledge off the JCF, one who isn’t even a Kylo fan, with her endless spurious accusations. Yet she gets away with it....because A is a major supporter. And A is a moderator.

As for me, I tend to have a stubborn streak and although I repeatedly told myself engaging with the toxic fantatics permeating the JCF isn’t good for me, I just couldn’t stop. I just had to repeatedly defend Kylo and AD from the increasingly nasty comments, despite it doing nothing for my mental health and personal happiness. So, when I was finally permabanned for once again mentioning Kylo in a ‘some other character’ thread, I’m actually relieved, because I’m now ‘off’ the site. I still read it just to see how the other posters are getting on, and I’ve noticed most of those who like Kylo and even AD are disappearing.

A and J are bit by bit destroying anyone who doesn’t share their opinions and driving them away, reducing the forum to a tedious one character love fest. In short, anyone who doesn’t agree with them isn’t welcome. So much for freedom of speech.

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appleb18 · 5 years ago

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Star vsThe Forces of Evil Season 4... One Year Later

One year ago, Star vs The Forces of Evil ended its fourth season and it was a disaster. It wasn’t always all that bad, in fact the show was pretty good on it’s first two seasons and bit of season 3 however it's just the final season that ruins it. It didn’t live to people expections and it felt rushed. Now let’s discuss how the show messed up shall we?

Behind the Failure

Before I talk about the dreadful writing of season 4, I want to talk about behind the scenes of the show's downfall. According to Daron Nefcy Twitter, she tweeted that “Just finished the last episode of Star vs The Forces of Evil” a month before the finale.

It’s fine if it was an episodic show like Phineas and Ferb, Batman Brave and the Bold and episodic shows but writing an ending for an ongoing story is something you should NEVER do. Writing the ending without a plan is a terrible decision to make, especially past plot points that were established and most of them were left answered.

You’ll probably be thinking that they were rushed and while I understand that all plot points can’t be answered like Gravity Falls but they wanted to make the romance their top priority over the story, which I’ll talk about later. Daron actually knew she had four seasons to work with and it makes it so frustrating to hear!

So now let’s talk about how it all went wrong.

Character 180

Previously, I used to like most of the cast, they used to be enjoyable characters but in season 4, oh dear they all turned into pricks.

The onlys characters that didn’t get ruined in the fourth season were

Eclipsa and Globgor

River Butterfly

Tom Lucitor

But everyone else, they all became such unbearable picks like The Magic High Commision. They used to act like decent people, trying to defend Mewni from Ludo/Toffee

And they actually have character, especially Rhombulus growth when he befriends Star.

But they get character assassinated and become monster haters with no actual reason just like the Mewnimen and they never atone for what they’ve done to the Butterfly family.

Moon betrayal came out of nowhere and it only lasted like seven minutes then she joins Star and Eclipsa because she didn’t realize Mina and her soldiers are going to commit genocide. Why didn’t she see that coming? They were racist to monsters, did she think they’ll actually spare them?

Her reason behind is so stupid and that is because she doesn’t trust Eclipsa ruling Mewni but why all the sudden? While it’s true she let her get shot by Meteora but that’s an mother instinct to protect her child. Also she tried to kill her own daughter to protect Star and Mewni. So Moon shouldn’t see her irresponsbile. While she isn’t fit to be ruler, she is trustworthy. What’s worse is she admittedly teams up with them to defeat Mina.

Then there’s Star and Marco, the two main characters of the show and they became terrible people. All of the development from the previous seasons get thrown out of the window.

Marco never talked to his parents after he left and barely visits because “he’s too busy” and he didn’t even know he’s gonna get a baby sister. Clearly doesn’t care when Star’s mom goes missing, his ego in the Neverzone and neglecting Nacho’s for a very long time at least 1000 years. Marco breaks up with Kelly for no reason and he knows what’s she going through.

For Star, she acts more of a princess and has responsibilities, having a reason why she can’t go back to Earth but it doesn’t excuse her being a terrible person. She’s irresponsible that she leaves Rhombus and Eclipsa alone despite it’s very clear they want to kill each other, she’s a brat in “Junkin’ Janna”, she’s so rude to Tom when he comes a better person for her, she’s been eyecandy on Marco even though she has a boyfriend and she’s a complete dick in “Cleaved”. I hate the excuse for her acting like a prick because “she’s a teenager, and teenagers are dumb”. What a load of bull

Losing Focus

Season 4 has to be the most unforced in the entire show. They present plot points and they barely explore it. They’ll make a comment about it and the show just moves on from it. Mostly showing shipping episodes and filler

The show introduced that mewmens were originated from Earth but never further explored that.

Mewni hates monsters but never shows why and how. It just makes them complete dicks throughout season

They never had a set goal or what’s trying to be. The only thing that made the plot moving was Moon disappearance but it gets resolved in two episodes.

So the only thing left is Star trying to end racism for season 4. The problem with this is there’s no stakes, if she fails, monsters and mewmens won’t get along and that’s fine because their children on both sides won’t make the same mistake as they did, making it no need to push it.

It would’ve worked better if they showed the Mewni perspective when Eclipsa became ruler. Unfortunately, they display them as unguided children, expecting Moon to do everything for them and complain. Also they hate monsters because they do not like them. Most of them go live with Moon, making them not accept change nor monsters. They don’t deserve any sympathy, they are just a bunch of idiots who are racist.

And the thing that made the season so unfocused is the freaking shipping.

Starco is Terrible

Remember when it was good back the first two seasons but season 3 and mostly season 4 made it so hard to watch and instead of shipping being a subplot like most shows, they turn it into a main plot. I don’t understand why they have to prioritize shipping over the story. It’s inevitable that Starco will become cannon because that’s what people wanted but it cost to establish ships to be torn down in the most frustrating way.

Kelly and Marco break up with no reason why and it’s off screen.

Star is a bad girlfriend to Tom, leaving Star crying

Then in a few hours, Star and Marco become a couple. Only a few hours and the resolution was so dang quick. It makes me wonder why they have to stay so long if she loves Marco more than him?

Star and Marco would rather die together instead of being with their family despite their relationship just starting. It would’ve worked better if Tomstar broke up earlier and Starco become cannon so we can see their relationship more than just a few episodes. There’s really no need to drag it for so long!

Mina Loveberry isn’t Threatening

Mina Loveberry, the main villain for season 4 and yet didn’t do anything. Unlike Toffee scheming behind the scenes for three seasons, Ludo raising an army of rats and gaining better control of the wand and Meteora powers growing, she didn’t play her role for the whole season. All she did is she rebuilt her battle armor and send poison fruits to Eclipsa, that’s it. The show never showed how dangerous she is

While sure she can beat Star and Tom but she got oneshoted by Meteora who got defeated by Eclipsa. So she really isn’t that big of a problem to handle.

In the finale, again she never did anything and she got knocked down by a Corrupted Unicorn, making her not so dangerous like other characters said she was

Seth should’ve been the main villain instead of that crazy lady but unfortunately, they never introduce him even though he’s still alive according to The Book of Spells.

Cleaved

So the series finale and I have to say, my god how the show has fallen. This finale is a disaster, it’s way worse than any other cartoon finale such as Adventure Time and Steven Universe Future.

With no build up, Star has come to a conclusion that she needs to eradicate magic because it’s bad. There weren't any clear signs that magic is truly bad. Star never actually thought about everyone else that is made out of magic or used it for their daily life. The only thing she realized is she won’t be with Marco. Not able to her friends or the many lives she’ll ruin but she won’t see Marco and everyone agrees to destroy the magic.

So Star and Marco go to the World of Magic to destroy it. As they enter and almost forget who they are, the pudding apparently helps them jog their memory and he’s carrying a lot of them.

They realized Tom was still at the realm and he’s riding on the Corrupted Horse so Marco will handle it while Star uses the whispering spell to destroy it.

Star gets help destroying magic by Eclipsa, Moon and for some odd reason Meteora can do it too with her butterfly form even though she never went through mewberrity. Then the past queens help them out too

As they were destroying magic, Marco feeds Tom the pudding but gets impaled by the unicorn with dramatic music playing but that got completely scrapped when he goes back to Earth.

After they successfully destroyed magic, Star and Marco have to go back their worlds but then she decided she wants to abandon everything and everyone so she can be with Marco and he does the same by staying in the realm. They both hug and something happens through the power of love that links between two worlds and again they were a couple for two episodes.

She goes back to Mewni and sees that she doesn’t have cheek marks anymore. Moon, mewmens and Mina are reformed and no punishments were given.

With magic gone, her and her family just caused the multiverse that relies on magic, face chaos and they will collapse entirely. Although they prevented genocide of the monsters but ultimately cause genocide at a larger scale than Mina’s in the process like all of Star spells, people who are made out of magic and The Magic High Commsions are dead.

Then two portals for each world exploded and both worlds collide. The writers made it out as if it’s a happy ending but it just causes panic between both worlds and racism towards monsters is now worse than ever but Starco can at least be together.

Conclusion

I used to like Star vs The Forces of Evil and I thought it would’ve been great but like most shows that disappointed me such as Steven Universe, and Voltron, this show really frustrated me. If the show actually didn’t focus too much on the shipping or made it as a romantic show, it would've been great but they didn’t and the show suffers for that. It’s a dang shame that it has to that route.

#Star vs The Forces of Evil #svtfoe #Star Butterfly #Marco Diaz #River Butterfly #Eclipsa Butterfly #Moon Butterfly #Rhombulus #Hekapoo #Mina Loveberry #Globgor #Tom Lucitor #Kelly #Starco #Tomstar #Kellco

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weregonnaneedmorewhiskey · 6 years ago

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Why is Nicki Minaj tarnishing her legacy?

Oh this is gonna get some attraction right here. It’s fine, I'm ready for the smoke. First off, I would like to say that I think Nicki Minaj is very talented and she has definitely made an impact on female hip hop and just hip hop in general and has made great music. I, at one point was a barb. I loved Nicki ever since bedrock. I made myself learn all of her verses and watched all her music videos and interviews. It was well known that I loved Nicki with a passion. However within the last three years, Nicki started to rub me the wrong way. She started to come across very bitter and petty.

First example was the 2015 VMAs when the nominations came out and she complained about the VOTY nominations and not being nominated for Anaconda and accused the VMAs for being racist. Bare in mind 3 of the 5 nominees were POC, this is a reach and her body shaming Taylor in the process was not cool. Thankfully Taylor & Nicki made up and performed at the VMAs. Then loads of people including Remy Ma & Lil Kim said that Nicki made been stopping them from getting work. This is completely uncalled for. You do not stop someone from making money. Period.

Now let’s fast forward to the last year, the Queen Era. This could have been a great era for Nicki. She hadn’t released an album since 2014 with The Pinkprint which side note Only & Truffle Butter was my shit at one point. They were a whole bop. Back to the subject, people had been waiting for Nicki’s follow up to The Pinkprint. She released Chun-Li & Barbie Tingz and it created a buzz but not the same buzz as her previous singles. Then the Zane Lowe interview happened where they discussed MotorSport and Cardi. Nicki’s statement of someone of if her (Cardi’s) stature worked with someone with my (Nicki’s) stature, I would be grateful...yeah. This statement for me came across as very arrogant and before any plays the race or gender, I would like to say that I am a black woman. I do not care if it was a man or a woman regardless of their race who said that, that is a conceited thing to say and come across as an asshole. Nicki, who claims that she is about woman empowerment and specifically black woman empowerment seems to never have any support for fellow female rappers. She should have used her platform to support female newcomers and yet she used her platform to support Tekashi 69, a sex offender and public troll. Nicki did receive a heavy amount of backlash for her collab with 69 and claimed that she was being picked on the public for her collaboration despite the fact that Gaga had released Do What You Want with R Kelly in 2013. Now as huge Lady Gaga who at the time loved that song, do I think Gaga should have featured R Kelly? HELL NO! But if I look at the time which was 5 years ago, R Kelly was looked at a musical genius and this was before the Me Too movement whereas FEFE was.

Nicki’s constant statement about Cardi not showing her genuine love is hypocritical because one: Cardi has shown her support for Nicki in the past and two: Nicki has never shown genuine love for those who have paved the way for her to be where she is today. Then Queen debuted at Number 2 on Billboard 200. Travis Scott’s Astroworld is number 1 for a second consecutive week. And she claims that Travis tried to cheat the numbers with having album bundles. And yet Nicki two days after Queen was released added FEFE to the tracklist despite it not originally not being there. Now you tell me who was trying to cheat the numbers here? Then she tries to place the blame on Kylie and Stormi. A baby is the reason for your album not being number 1.Wow. This was damaging for Nicki’s image because she coming across a sore loser and ungrateful which I 100% agree with. If you really wanted to point the finger at why the album wasn't number 1, point it to your barbz that instead of streaming or buying the album are instead sending death threats and trolling on twitter in the hopes of getting a like from you. Heartbreak On A Full Moon only had three days of sales tracking and debuted at number 3 and Chris was grateful for the album going gold in the first week. And then you go on Ellen and saying you want to punch Travis Scott in the face. If Travis Scott had said the same if Queen went to number 1, he would get MAJOR backlash and his album would quickly fall off the Billboard 200.

And Cardi’s numerous Instagram posts, Cardi really came with the receipts. I’m just link the video because I'm not break this down. Cardi has every right to defend herself and her name as it was being defaced especially when Kulture was being brought into this. That is disgusting. Cardi said it best “focus on your craft because you’re out here, fucking up your legacy looking a fucking hater” and that is 100% true. The barbz that don’t buy/stream her music and stay on twitter have fed her ego and have allowed to become this caricature of the “bitter black woman” and if anything Nicki’s words about Lil Kim have come back to haunt her. The rants and the cancellations on her tour in which yes, many artists have cancelled concerts but not when the show should be taking place. You do not have fans waiting for two and a half hours to cancel the gig. From a former fan’s perspective, it’s saddening because she is an incredible artist. The Queen era should have been much more successful but her attitude and her ego is preventing that. I do hope that Nicki will eventually change this but as of late, I don’t see this happening.

youtube

#nicki minaj #music #blogger #blogpost #hiphop #travis scott

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valeriemperez · 6 years ago

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Tati, you’re intelligent, eloquent, gorgeous, I want to be you when I grow (p.s. I’m sure I’m older than you) and what you do for TF fandom is incredible. You’ve had a lot come at you the last two days so I hope you have the BEST weekend ever. Love you ❤️❤️

You’re so sweet, dear! Thank you, I appreciate you very much. But don’t worry, my weekend is very full regardless of IG or fandom shenanigans.

@pruneaux-ananas said:

I’m sorry you have to deal with people twisting your words. Must be exhausting.I and many people appreciate your insightful comments

No worries, and thank you!

@robin1877 said:

I completely agree the cast knowingly or unknowingly created an environment where it’s ok to hate on their co-star. All could have been nipped in the bud the first season if they would have come out as a united front in support of Candice. She would not still be receiving the amount of hate 5 seasons in.

Right, it wouldn’t end the hate, but when people know there are consequences some of them do the thing less.

@smileyscorner04 said:

These anons still don’t get it! Qwhite interesting.

Sometimes I wonder if I’m just getting the same anon 12 different ways.

@trashgaryen said:

Tati, I’m sorry you have to deal with this nonsense. You said what you said and you said was correct and they need to deal with on their own time.

@jomakinmeblush said:

this sounds like one anon sending you multiple ask hmm.

At least they’re making me feel loved lmao.

@vrycurious said:

I completely agree with what you’ve said. I think the anon(s) don’t understand or refuse to understand that just like his post about body shaming him got him all this media attention and sympathy post, a post addressing the hate his leading lady gets would likely do the same. For both of them. To be fair it would be nice if any of her cast mates and producers, exec, writers etc addressed that issue.

We’ve seen everyone change their tune after his response, and now the official photo comes out days after his original upset. There’s no way he didn’t fast track that. Compare that to the weeks Anna Diop has been waiting, dealing with racist backlash over a set pic and then a trailer including that set pic look even though we know it’s unfinished, with no official photo or first look from WB.

What’s your opinion on Grant blocking people who point out to him that he could use his platform to call out racial abuse his costar has faced? This fandom constantly makes excuses for him and silence anyone who dares to point out his flaws

Is that really something that’s happening? Because if so, that’s just further proof that he wants to shut out the conversation surrounding white privilege and racism. He is actively making a choice not to stand against it on his own show.

My issue with Grant is that he never addressed Candice hate that was directed at HIM. Tbh he can’t do much about stuff that’s in her mentions. However, I’ve seen about 3 times that someone had called Candice the N word while he was still on twitter, tagged him, and he did nothing. This is the same guy who will see one negative comment about his dogs in the midst of 600 other positive comments.

Right, it’s just not something he’s comfortable addressing. Which is too bad.

Can I ask if the rest of the cast has stood up for CP like they did with GG the other day? I don’t mean support in general but support when she replies to haters. Because I don’t recall this ever happening but I could be misremembering.

Ironically, the one who has most stood up for her is Hartley, because he went out of his way to argue with racists and idiots on her post about white privilege. But outside of that, I feel like Kate, Violett, Caity… People not strictly in the series regular cast are the ones who cheer her on most in those moments.

I know you like to stay neutral but you have the patience of a saint. To go as far to say his public support would be counter productive - THE AUDACITY. Anna Diop getting public support from her co-star was a beautiful thing and Candice getting public support would be beautiful too. Nobody is saying anyone has to do it but ANY TIME we stand together against racism, misgyony, homophobia or other forms of discrimination - it’s the right move. To suggest otherwise is beyond sad.

Agreed. Standing up to racism, misogyny and hatred will never be a bad thing.

Very unpopular opinion but I’m going to say it. As a diehard west*llen shipper, I kinda wish Grant hadn’t pulled the plug on snowb*rry. Hear me out, I know that sounds crazy, but, I think of SB had been allowed to run its course and we saw them date for a short time then split in s1 or s2, the SB would have died at that point. They'dve seen that SB aren’t right for each other They may still hate Iris and WA but at least they’d chill a lil.

Oh, wow. Well, of course, I wouldn’t have wanted to see SB happen on any level. But I also don’t think it would have quelled the problem any, because delusional people will hold onto to anything they can get from a ship. So if it had actually happened, then we’d still be dealing with people talking about how much more chemistry they had, how the story did them dirty, how Barry loved her more than Iris, etc. They wouldn’t be persuaded that it was wrong, because they already twist the story they have now to prove that Iris is the worst.

Good gracious. I know you’ve said you’re not making another post about the Incident (which I totally get) I just wanted to say that I agree with you, I get what you meant and I’m sorry that some people seem to be purposefully misconstruing what you said.

Oops, I’m kind of making another post. Can’t even stick to my principles! But thank you for your support.

How do all the anons coming to defend Grant explain his blocking fans who simply explain that he can use his publicity for privilege to stand up for Candice?

I’m going to guess they’ll say the fans must have been too rude, or reverse racist, or that Grant shouldn’t have to defend Candice because… they made a secret pact that he wouldn’t and he’s only blocking them to honor her request?

You’re a reasonable person. I’m sorry to pin this rant on you but seeing Grant block fans who are simply alluding to his impact and how he could employ it to defend Candice is something I can no longer excuse. As much as I would like him to, I can die on the hill that he doesn’t have to defend her if he doesn’t want to. But to see him actually block fans over it puts a sour taste in my mouth and indicates to me there’s something more to this than just him being sensitive and prioritizing himself “Sour taste” anon cont. It’s very disheartening to see a lot of this fandom who claims to have Candice’s back refuse to acknowledge this glaring elephant in the room that Grant has a huge problem when people point out his white privilege or anything related to race, particularly in the context of the abuse Candice gets. And if anyone points out that something isn’t right, the fandom is quick to crucify them. No one is alarmed that he is this triggered and uncomfortable at the topic of race?

I’m not alarmed, per se, just because we’ve seen this at work for five years. But I am continually disappointed that he’s not growing or changing on this front. It reminds me of him saying he wanted to do better by the women in his life post-AJK firing, and I think he’s tried in private and behind-the-scenes. But he has a platform for so much more, and he actively refuses to use it.

#the flash for ts #long post for ts #anonymous #tatiana's thoughts #more asks under the cut

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