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knightofbalance-13 · 6 years ago

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http://alexlayer.tumblr.com/post/176968058052/how-not-to-ever-ever-defend-jaune-part-3\

Considering this is targeted at one of my friends, consider this PERSONAL.

Today we exterminate @rainbowloliofjustice‘s reply as well as her apparent ingrained misogyny, taking everything into account, following @outcasts-redeemer’s argument’s deconstruction

So no matter what, if someone defends Jaune it’s sexism. Wow, I’ve seen some stupid forms of logic in my time but this is literally the strawman every right winger uses to describe someone like you. So uh, good job on that end just don’t stand near any open flames.

Hello! NB person here.

So you’re not a woman and therefore have no place talking about female issues? Good know! We can just go ahead with the assumption that, even if every single argument I make after this is wrong, you still don’t get to say anything.

It was more than twice, and it’s not the constant asking out that’s the problem, it’s the disregard and disrespect for the girl’s agency that makes him a douche.

Really? Because uh, this is the first I’m hearing of this from you. Before,Jaune asking Weiss out multiple times was the issue.

So the issue you actually have has no corporeal form nor does it have any definition other than ‘negative against Jaune’. Great, how about you take it up with that wall over there?

Jaune actually called out Neptune on not caring about Weiss’ feelings, which is practically giving him a lecture and incredibly hypocritical of him considering his behavior towards him

So apparently a parent can’t lecture their kids on making mistakes they made, ignoring how people who made these mistakes would know the consequences of these mistakes and how to avoid them? Good to know you don’t understand a fundamental aspect of life.

I’m not here to deny that Weiss wasn’t the best of the best during Volume 1, but she’s actually shown development and evidence of moving past this. Yeah, she approached Pyrrha with her own interest in mind, but that was just once and it has never been repeated since. Not to mention Pyrrha was nowhere near as visible uncomfortable about any of this as Weiss was with Jaune shoving himself in between them, and at least Weiss was smart enough to pick up the hint and drop it.

Actually-

Pyrrha was being vsibly uncomfortable by her tone of voice and how she constantly tried getting away from Weiss. And since Weiss, just like Jaune, didn’t outright admit she was being wrong: shouldn’t she be considered just as bad as Jaune?

Or does this actually boil down to “Weiss have vagina so good and Jaune have penis so bad”?

P.S. Pyrrha was more comfortable talking to Jaune than Weiss. Or are women not allowed to choose who they talk to now?

Yes, Miss Chick, I’ve watched the show, and I stand by this statement. Pyrrha was made, from beginning to end, to complement Jaune’s arc, not to be a character of her own. And if you don’t see it, then… girlfriend, sister, gal pal, wake the fuck up! Not that I’m saying that you can’t like Pyrrha on her own right, but what can you even tell me about Pyrrha other than she’s kind, badass, smart, and dependable, mh? What are her hobbies? What are her dreams? What’s her background like? Do we even know anything about her family that might tell us anything about her? About how she grew up? Can you even tell me what’s her relationship like with her teammates and fellow classmates other than Jaune? ‘cause I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed, but outside of Ozpin’s circle during her would-be “arc” in Volume 3, Pyrrha is practically never allowed to interact one-on-one with characters that aren’t Jaune. Her conversation with Weiss in Volume 1? Interrupted by Jaune. Ren and Nora trying to cheer her up before her big fight in Volume 3? Interrupted by Jaune. Her apologizing to Ruby in V3 after killing Penny? Goes about two lines before Jaune steps in again to claim all of Pyrrha’s attention once more.

A. Sexist.

B. Also sexist implying she can’t see it due to her gender.

And C. You know, you mentioned Penny here....

So what is Penny’s hobbies?

What is Penny’s dreams?

What is Penny’s background like?

What is penny’s family like, outside of what she told Ruby?

How did Penny grow up?

Can you even tell me about a relationship Penny has outside of Ruby?

Trick questions:

You CAN’T answer them.

Because Penny is in the same fucking boat as PYRRHA. In fact, Penny has LESS of a character than Pyrrha because, guess what, She HAS no arc! She is entirely connected to Ruby!

So if you have such an issue with characters like this then surely, you would say something about Penny right? Unless, of course, you only have an issue with Jaune because Jaune has a penis and you have outright misandric tendencies.

Even her death has served nothing but Jaune’s development. We’ve never seen any characters mourn Pyrrha other than him. Not Ren and Nora, who were her teammates, not even Ruby, who saw her die first hand. Nobody outside of Jaune seems to even remember her most of the time (and yes, I know Ruby mentions her in one scene in Volume 5, but that’s about it), and even her remnants were melted down to improve Jaune’s equipment rather than being brought to Pyrrha’s family to be placed on her grave or something.

A. Ruby outright shows development because of Pyrrha at leats three times in the series.

But B.

Even her death has served nothing but Ruby’s development. We’ve never seen any characters mourn Penny other than him. Not Ironwood and Dr. Pollendina, who were her father figures, not even Pyrrha, who saw her die first hand. Nobody outside of Ruby seems to even remember her most of the time, and even her remnants were forgotten about because they couldn’t be used for Ruby instead of seeing her buried or something.

Notice how my paragraph is almost exactly like yours? That’s because no matter what argument you make for Pyrrha, I can make the EXACT same argument for Penny (or even better.) So unless you show an issue with Penny’s death 9which you don’t): Why should I take this as anything other than the ravening of an insane, biased asshole?

Again, I’m not saying you can’t like Pyrrha for what we’ve seen of her. I myself liked her as well, but in the sense that I really wish she had been her own character, that we could have actually gotten to know her and see what she was really like, rather than have her near entire screen-time revolve around Jaune. Stop for just a moment to think of what Pyrrha’s character would be like if Jaune wasn’t in the show, and you either come to the realization that she’d have no purpose, or realize about the endless possibilities there is to her character that the show never bothered to explore because the writers never saw her as anything but a complement to Jaune’s character. From day one, she was meant to die. She was made by design to be little but the Disposable Woman, and it shows.

Do I need to do the paragraph thing again?

Because here it[’s even more effective considering A. Pyrrha would be the exact same character whereas we’d never even SEE Penny wthout Ruby and B. Pyrrha died for her own reasons whereas Penny died basically to give RUby development.

So uh, once more:

Either stick your standards or showcase how your standards is just sexism.

Honestly, no, not really. I mean, I didn’t really meant to blame Jaune for those things. You’re right. Cinder is the one to blame here, for everyone that got hurt. I do believe, however, that Jaune’s behavior during that fight did more harm than good during the earlier half of the fight, and made so many mistakes that it makes you wonder if he’s really learned anything throughout the series, though really, the whole part here is not so much about issues with characters as it is with the writing. I mean, why would Cinder even target Weiss instead of Ruby, whom she holds a personal grudge against and was even more vulnerable than Weiss? This is what worries me, that it feels like the writers chose Weiss because, since Jaune used to crush on her, that would hurt him the most. It’s a writing decision placed solemnly with Jaune’s character in mind and no one else’s, which is a serious problem because it shows the writers keep prioritizing Jaune above most other characters, even the titular characters.

Or you know:

She’s also Ruby’s partner and her and Yang have been getting very close this season and thus choosing her would affect the most people?

And because hurting Ruby wouldn’t give her the same satisfaction as hurting Weiss.

And finally: bullshit. Ruby, Weiss, Blake, Yang, Oscar, Qrow, Raven, Hazel, Lionheart, Illa and Cinder all had more focus this entire Volume than Jaune. He Is literally one of the least focused on characters this entire Volume.

That’s fair, but even then, there’s been zero interaction between Jaune and Weiss since the reunion in Volume 5 (they practically didn’t acknowledge each other). In other words, there hasn’t yet been a development to their relationship, which I wouldn’t be exactly against. What I’m against is the writers using the whole “Jaune saving Weiss” as a shortcut to show a development in their relationship and thus completely avoiding having Jaune own up to what he did wrong in the past, as if suggesting Weiss was in the wrong (and no, she wasn’t. It’s completely within her right to reject someone she’s not interested in) and Jaune never did anything bad, which just isn’t true, despite what they want the viewer to believe. They themselves (the writers) need to own up to their shortcomings just like Jaune needs to.

A. WHAT DEVELOPMENT? Their relationship is EXACTLY THE SAME as before. Weiss doesn’t even ACKNOWLEDGE that Jaune saved her life. Your bitching about nothing!

B. Jaune kind of SAVED HER LIFE. N doubt she’s gonna act differently! that tends to change one’s view of a person!/

C. Jaune WAS suppose to be in the wrong! You just don’t want to see it because that would tear away one of your beating sticks.

And D. Why SHOULD the writers acknowledge jackshit when you adamantly REFUSE to? You bitch at my friend for being seixsdt then display almost as much sexism as Dudeblade and act like hypocrisy is so bad when you have done nothing BUT spout hypocrisy!

Like I said before, this much is right. Mind you, though, I only brought up Jaune failing to stop Cinder as Ozpin told him not because I really want to blame him there, but because @outcasts-redeemer actually dared blame Pyrrha’s death on Weiss for failing to save Pyrrha after Jaune asked her and Ruby to do just as much, which… I don’t need to tell you just how ridiculous that is, now do I?

... bullshit, you did want to blame him. Hell, your excuse here has no evidence to back it up so I’,m just gonna assume you willfully misinterpreted something.

If you wanna ignore the obvious fact that there’s clear issues with the way Jaune’s written, and the way near everyone gets written to accommodate things for his sake (the battle of Haven being by far the worst offender), then you do you, but I’m not. We were promised a show about four badass action girls, not about a boring, generic and stereotypical dude who’s just the most unoriginal archetype ever but has the world bend to his whim because the writing says so, and so long as they keep making these blunders, criticism will continue to show up.

Thing is:

Not only do only ONE issue here actually apply, but that issue applies to THE MAIN CHARACTER and you never say a word then.

Not just that, you act like Jaune took up the entire battle of haven when at most, he took up half an episode. In a Volume where he made NO other significant appearances while the rets of the Volume focused on the main girls while you STILL bitch about Jaune having too much focus then say, the other TEN characters that had more focus than him.

And then to top it all off, you call this shit ‘criticism.’ Bull fucking shit. You blatantly IGNORED facts here and showed a clear double standard in regards to what is good and what is bad. You don’t want the show to get better, you want the show to cater to you ALONE. This is even EXCLUDING your hypocrisy as you call misgyony while being misogynist AND misandrist or how you bitch about the show so called bending to Jaune’s will while you demand everyone around bend to YOUR will.

Guess what? So long as this shit still happens with you, your criticism will never go away either. So long as RWDE spews bullshit, people will shovle that bullshit right back in.

#alexlayer

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knightofbalance-13 · 6 years ago

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http://alexlayer.tumblr.com/post/176844267252/how-not-to-ever-ever-defend-jaune-part-2

*clicks tounge* Yeah, you should probably stop demanding people not defend Jaune.

You will lose that battle.

Thanks @saltwukong for the title idea, and yet again, here’s another argument deconstruction, courtesy of @outcasts-redeemer‘s stubbornness. (Full thread here.)

Yes because listening to the guy known for lying is such a great idea...

Yes, yes he DID hypocritically lecture Neptune about it, because nothing in that scene truly shows that he learned anything other than to finally get the hint that Pyrrha likes him. He disregarded Weiss’ feelings – multiple times – and then tries to lecture Neptune on doing exactly that. That’s hypocrisy in a nutshell.

You know, he did learn he should have taught about PYRRHA’S feelings as well. And THAT was what he learned. And that beyond this scene, we see him never asking Weiss out again. So evidently he did learn something.

For him to not be a hypocrite in that scene, it’d require that he’d actually own up to his mistake, and apologize to Weiss for how he acted. Even if it was as much as telling Pyrrha that he realized he acted improperly towards Weiss (and maybe leave the apologize for later) would suffice to let the audience know that he has actually learned, but no such thing happen, and at no point Jaune actually recognizes that he did anything wrong. Thus, he’s in absolutely no position to call out Neptune for anything.

Not really, what Neptune did was actually worse. He kind of lead Weiss on and then basically broke her heart. I think anyone not named ‘Adam’ has the right to call Neptune out on that one.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Weiss having been a bitch does not in any way justify Jaune being a douche and keeping on hitting on a girl who’s clearly got no interest in him whatsoever.

And the most Weiss did was try to get Pyrrha to be her partner for as much as a single scene, not constantly push her into anything, through multiple occasions, while she clearly expresses disinterest, like Jaune did for Weiss.

Not the point here. The point here is to point hypocrisy, like how you bash Jaune for doing something you forgive Weiss for doing.

Not to mention that Jaune only asked Weiss out three times. DID constantly push her in that sceen while showing disinterest by trying to get away. That’s how shy people show disinterest: trying to get away.

Again, that doesn’t justify anything.

And again, that’s not his point, which is actually trying to EXPLAIN it.

Yeah, it’s in the show, and it makes no freaking sense at all. Pyrrha said she liked Jaune because he treated her like a normal person and didn’t put her on a pedestal to, you know, the guy who went nuts over discovering she was that celebrity in the cereal box and laughed at the idea that the Pyrrha Nikos would be without a date to the dance. The show tells you one thing and then it shows you another, and that has hardly ever been as blatant as with this scene.

That isn’t putting her on a pedestal. That’s just being in awe for a few seconds. And Pyrrha was clearly hurt by what Jaune said. And even then, you miss all the times Jaune treats her as an equal or doesn’t seem to care about her being some huge celebrity.

This is just you trying to justify irrational hatred.

And Jaune was infatuated with Weiss, but there’s a big difference between that and actually caring for someone, especially when it’s clear that Jaune doesn’t even know Weiss that well.

*sighs* And the purpose of dating is suppose to be GETTING TO KNOW SOMEONE. That’s like saying ‘You’re a racist!’ while slapping down any attempts at them trying to not be racist.

Neptune is a douche, there’s no denying that, but you know what’s good about it? That the show doesn’t pretend he’s anything else, which is why he’s so often the punch of nearly every joke.

... No, that’s Jaune. Jaune is the punch of nearly every joke. Neptune is the punch of THREE jokes, one of which is just about his fear of water.

But it’s really telling that you wanna demonize him, yet seem to ignore everything wrong the boy you’re trying to defend did. You know, like cheating into a school he was not fit in, putting his friends and classmates in danger, lying to his teammates, disregarding the feelings of a girl he’s crushing in, ignoring his partner, being a hypocrite, getting mad when your partner shows better leadership than you do.

A. You do the exact with Weiss here.

B. Jaune probably never got the chance.

C. name one time

D. name one time and no, the cheating doesn’t count because they know about that.

E. Not only does he fix that but both Neptune AND Weiss do the same shit

F. Glass houses

And G. Source.

What input? No, seriously, what fucking input? Nobody, NOBODY called him out on he was doing because despite everything, the narrative was bent over backwards with trying to make us sympathize with him. Pyrrha just told him to go for it first, then just told him why she liked him later on, and he and Ruby just talked about practically nothing.

Pyrrha and himself.

You do know the narrative made Jaune drop this right? You outright admit it so you KNOW this.

Jaune learned absolutely nothing of value here.

You misspelled “I”.

The only thing he learned is that “hey, maybe I should turn my eyes on the girl that’s clearly pinning for me rather than the one I’ve obviously got no chances with” and went with it, and then for some reason felt entitled and/or emboldened to call out Neptune for disregarding Weiss’ feelings despite having done just the same himself and never apologizing or even recognizing he did wrong before.

Which is why we NEVER SEE HIM HIT ON PYRRHA EVER or even show faint interest in her as a romantic partner and only did what he promised. Doesn't really work if you think for more than 2 seconds.

You mean, the fall they still both had to endure? The only thing really saving them there was cartoon physics.

And don’t you even dare box Ruby with Jaune. Ruby went to fight the Death Stalker because that’s just her thing and she honestly thought she could beat it. At no point there’s any suggestion that she did it to impress Weiss.

You strike me as the type of person who would scream at a firefighter who got his face burned off for not saving your TV.

And while that is partially correct: Jaune didn’t do it to impress Weiss. He did it because altruism.

So what’s he even protecting her from if not from Neptune then, mh?

Broken feelings.

At any rate, did you stop for a moment to consider she never needed him to protect her, or her feelings, from anything here? When was Weiss even shown to be hurt by what happened? You know what’s the difference between her and Jaune? It’s that when she gets rejected, she takes it like much more of a man than he’ll ever get to be and just gets over it. Doesn’t push it, doesn’t mope about it, just lets it go. She was fine going to the dance just by herself, and didn’t need some douche who kept disregarding her feelings acting like he had to save her from some injustice that was never there to begin with, because again, no matter what Neptune did, he was never obligated to accept Weiss’ invitation.

The fact that she’s sad about it.

And yet when Neptune disregards Weiss’ feelings: that’s perfectly fine.

Do you even realize how much you’re reaching now, trying to make a moment where these two never even interacted somehow be about them?

... DO you know how much YOU’VE been reaching?

Hell, I can barely see your point since this could be argued as “Jaune is not the same person you’re bitching about.

’m not going to blame Jaune for Cinder’s action. I’m going to blame Jaune for being an idiot who jumped the gun and put his whole team in danger for rushing into a fight, breaking his team’s formation and then allowing their enemies to pick them out one by one at their own leisure. That’s without mentioning that nearly everyone there had reasons to be really pissed at Cinder and her colleges, yet Jaune was the only one who lost his cool, and it’s certainly not helped by the fact that the last trigger was just that Cinder didn’t know who he was.

...

There was no formation, they weren’t going for a fight, that was gonna happen anyway and the narrative AGREES with you.

Not to mention it didn’t occur to that responding to “You’re a cold heartless monster who destroys the lives of everyone around you without as much as ounce of regret” with “who are you?” kind drives home the point Jaune was making: Cinder didn’t even care enough to remember her actions.

This is a BASIC HUMAN REACTION. The fact that this never occurred to you kind of shows how fucked you are in regards to Jaune.

Fuck that. You bet your ass I’m gonna go there, specially if you’re gonna do something as petty as try to blame Weiss for Pyrrha’s death. He had ONE job and he fucking blew it because he couldn’t fucking focus on it. Thirteen seconds is more than enough to spot an opponent and ready your shield for them, anyway.

A. Where he did he do that? I am not gonna find proof FOR you.

B. His best friend was screaming in pain. This is the second time you’ve bashed Jaune for having a human reaction.

C. yeah but guy who can barely kill an Ursa Vs. Woman who punted Ruby rose around like a toy. Jaune was gonna fail no matter what.

Jaune snapping and rushing into a fight was still a stupid thing to do, and it’s something for which others have been called out for doing in canon, so you can bet I’m going to call him out on this, especially since Cinder likely wouldn’t have even thought of targeting others if he kept his mouth shut. You just can’t guarantee things playing out the same even if there had been some changes, especially when the whole scene is set up in such an obvious, contrived way.

Well then, i’m gonna go there as well:

Cinder took joy in causing pain to Amber and gloated over killing Pyrrha. She was gonna target others no matter what. She’s a fucking SADIST. Or would you rather have Ruby be in this situation so we can see your bias?

And yeah, I can. it's this thing called LOGIC.

Yeah, sure, sure, but see, fittingly enough, you’re just like the show you’re trying to defend. It says one thing, it shows another. Sorry to tell you, but I’m not buying into any of this bullshit.

And you’re just like what you accuse this person as: Someone who says one thing and says another while also irrationally defending their points. So by your own rules, no one should buy your bullshit.

And Weiss getting hurt for the sake of Jaune’s manpain and unlocking his Semblance was the cherry on top of the cake, and they fucking better not also try to use this as an excuse for Weiss respecting Jaune from here on, because that’s just gonna be the drop that does it.

... SO where’s the point where Jaune is used to show Ruby’s womanpain in Volume 4? Where’s the point of Blake being used for Yang’s womanpain in Volume 3? Where’s the point of Jaune being used for Pyrrha’s womanpain in Volume 2? Where’s the point of Ozpin being used for Ruby’s womanpain in Volume 1?

You may as well scream “I’M SEXIST!” at the top of your lungs.

You tried to blame Weiss for Pyrrha’s death! You can’t get any more blatant with shitting than that!

And you defended other characters for doing what Jaune did. You’re no better.

Also proof.

It’s called criticism, bucko. If you don’t like it, do yourself a favor and block the RWDE tag.

Jaune h8.

You literally tagged as hate.

Even if this guy is a Jaune stan, you’re no better. You’re just the opposite extreme.

#alexlayer

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