#a jedi as an antagonist

[allegoryofthebeast]

I am obsessed that Jedi: Survivor explores Cal more or less slipping into the dark side/dark behaviors and patterns and how leaning into emotion as a Jedi can make you significantly more powerful though also extremely reckless and aggressive - however a balance could perhaps be reached by Jedi with the patience and support to understand their darker emotions and how it could be beneficial or harmful given the situation. But they fr don’t. Every time something within that vein happens to Cal everyone is like damn… crazy. Anyway

[bereft-of-frogs]

underrated thing I love that I do not think about, use, or appreciate often enough: when a character is doing the objectively right thing, an objectively good thing....but so vindictively. like with just the bitchiest attitude. like they're for sure being kind and right but with the bitchiest, snarky attitude. I love that.

[kissingwookiees]

my headcanon for swtor from knights onward is actually that all my pcs are in fact still alive simultaneously and they all have a little bit of valkorion in their head (like a horcrux) and they all work with the alliance depending on their class actually

[voidendron]

wip i guess?

"I dont think you understand the severity of what's going on here."

When the Cathar merely shrugged as he chewed on that stupid toothpick, Varrich had to resist the urge to reach out and smack it out of his mouth.

"I don't think you get that I know what I'm doin'. I was hired for a job, I'm doin' that job, yeah?"

For an underworld boss, this guy was so stupid Varrich wanted to pull out his hair just from talking to him.

"Sept. Darok gave us a task, you're making it difficult for the rest of us. Just--"

"Major." Master Vetiko's voice was gentle even as the end of her tail twitched with irritation with the situation. "You two at each others' throats is what's making this difficult, not Jen being a little lippy."

Varrich's lip twisted as his scowl deepened. Despite his helmet covering the upper half of his face, Vetiko still gave him a look - she could probably just sense his irritation without seeing the look in his eyes.

"Where's V'ehsz?" he asked, to change the subject. The Barsen'thor had snuck off in a Force shroud to disable the guns that were making getting anywhere close to the taxi pad nearly impossible. That left the rest of the team to take cover as they waited.

Vetiko hummed as she closed her eyes, then gestured toward the second nearest to their location. "First is down, he's currently at the second. I think we're good to start heading toward the third; he should have it disabled by the time we get there."

"Then let's hurry it up," he muttered as he readied his rifle; Vetiko tightened her grip on her lightsaber, while Jen hoisted up both of his somewhat-outdated-looking blasters.

He couldn't say he was pleased to be working with two Jedi and a smuggler while his usual team held back to aid the rest of the ranks in defending the landing position, but it is what is, he supposed. The colonel knew what he was doing, this plan had worked so far, they just had to get to the Jedi temple to drive the enemy forces out of it.

...He also couldn't say he was too pleased when Sept cast a look over his shoulder, a cheeky grin stretching his mouth. Why did he have to work with this guy...

[sunderwight]

SV Star Wars AU where Shen Yuan transmigrates into a proxy for Padme.

I know the Obikin vibes are really strong with Bingqiu, but hear me out:

Shen Qingqiu is the fourteen-year-old(?!?!) King Elect (?!?!?!) of Qing Jing, a planet from the Cang Qiong sector that has been facing issues with the Trade Federation and has petitioned the Jedi Order for help.

"Shen Qingqiu" is also a role played by several similar-looking fourteen-year-old boys, except where Padme and her handmaids were all from more or less the same background, most of the servants conscripted for the Shen Qingqiu role are downtrodden slaves basically cast as expendable bodyguards, whose main advantage in this deal is that after Shen Qingqiu finishes his term as King then they get to go free.

Meaning, Shen Yuan and Shen Jiu are both expendable body doubles for the "real" Shen Qingqiu (in this case, Qiu Jianluo going by his royal name, with the "qiu" being deliberate rather than accidental).

Additional fun possibility: Qiu Jianluo has actually been dead since the trouble with the Trade Federation first escalated, and Shen Yuan and Shen Jiu have basically been Weekend At Bernie's-ing him because there's no time to elect a new king and if the Trade Federation's blockade isn't broken, everyone's immediate prospects are extremely bleak (and the odds of the Shens being sent to some prison camp instead of granted their freedom is very high).

Another additional fun possibility: the Trade Federation didn't actually kill Qiu Jianluo, Shen Jiu did, so not only do they have to maintain the charade, they also have to look for opportunities to drop Qiu Jianluo's corpse down a reactor core or something and make it look like he's died during the conflict in order to prevent any investigations that will look into pesky things like "time of death" or "how many stab wounds there are".

In the midst of all this, of course, there is the main plot of PIDW/SW, wherein Shen Qingqiu was originally one of several antagonists to excessively bully and dismay Jedi prodigy and future Chosen One Luo Binghe, a poor slave boy living on an ice planet and trying to win enough money via dangerous pod races to buy medicine for his dying mother. Featuring also young Jedi knights Liu Qingge and Yue Qi (the latter of whom seems to have some history with Shen Jiu...?), admittedly kickass Sith apprentice Mobei Jun, a certain future Chancellor from the Huan Hua sector, and sentient Sith holocron Meng Mo. And Airplane, probably as an up-and-coming member of the Jedi AgriCorps who basically has Count Dooku's plot duties (turn traitor and get killed) but is somehow also thoroughly entangled with Mobei Jun.

[david-talks-sw]

Debunking more myths in the GFFA: the Jedi and the clones.

I wrote a post debunking the various myths about how "the Jedi condone slavery", a while ago. Something I had omitted (because it's such a big topic) was the following two statements that concern the clone troopers' relations with the Jedi:

"The clones were genetically bred to have accelerated growth, so they're technically child soldiers."

"The clones were slaves of the Jedi."

Both the above statements are inaccurate, let's explore why. 

"The clones were child soldiers"

Let's get the easy one out of the way first, because it's a logic that cuts both ways. If age is our only determination of the maturity of a Star Wars character, then Grogu is not a baby. He is aged 50, and is thus a middle-aged man.

Who cruelly eats the babies of a woman...

... and knowingly tortures animals for his own sadistic pleasure.

Of course, I'm kidding. Grogu's none of the above things.

The narrative frames him as a cute baby who does innocent baby stuff. Him eating the eggs is played off as comedic, as is him lifting with the frog. To this day, some fans still call him "Baby Yoda".

Conversely, despite the clones being 10/14-years-old, their actions, behaviors, way of thinking, sense of humor, morals etc, are all those of an adult.

Like, Ahsoka is technically older than Rex in this scene.

The scene doesn't portray them as peers, though. This isn't written as "a teen and a tween talking". No, Rex looks, acts and behaves like a grown-up and is thus framed as such by the narrative.

You can make the argument "they're child soldiers", but (unless you're doing so in bad faith) you'd also have to argue that "Grogu's an adult".

"The clones were the Jedi's slaves"

Nope. For all intents and purposes, they're in the same boat as the Jedi, who George Lucas stated multiple times had been drafted to fight in the war.

Again: both the Jedi (monk/diplomats untrained for fighting on a battlefield) and clones (literally bred en masse only to fight) are being forced to fight by Palpatine and the Senate.

Though, on paper, the clones were commissioned by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, it was actually done by the Sith (who either manipulated or assassinated Sifo-Dyas then stole his identity, depending on the continuity you choose to adhere to). The rest of the Jedi had no idea these clones were being created.

So while the clones are slaves... they're not owned by the Jedi.

They're the army of the Republic, they belong to the Senate. This isn't exactly a scoop, they refer to the clones as something to purchase...

... and manufacture.

As far as the Senate’s concerned, clones are property, like droids. 

Like there's a whole subplot in The Bad Batch about this very point: after the war, the clones are decommissioned and left out to dry because they literally have no rights, they served their purpose.

The only trooper to ever canonically blame the Jedi for the clones' enslavement is Slick, who the narrative frames as having been bribed and manipulated by Asajj Ventress into betraying his comrades.

Also, the only canonical Jedi shown to ever be mean, dismissive or mistreating the clones in any way, is Pong Krell.

And it's eventually revealed he’s in fact a full-on traitor, hence why the story frames him as an antagonistic dick from the moment he's introduced. He doesn’t represent the Jedi in any way.

We know this because the other Jedi we’ve been shown are always prioritizing their clones’ lives over theirs, if given the chance.

Finally, if we wanna get even more specific... as Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic (GAR), the clones belong to Palpatine. 

Palpatine who is a Sith Lord. 

Palpatine who arranged for the creation of the clones and had them all injected with a chip that would activate upon hearing a code-word...

... and forced them to murder their Jedi without hesitation or remorse.

When you bear all that  ⬆️  in mind and when you read this quote by George Lucas...

"The Jedi won't lead droids. Their whole basis is connecting with the life force. They'd just say, 'That's not the way we operate. We don't function with non-life-forms.” So if there is to be a Republic army, it would have to be an army of humans."    - The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005, 2020  

... narratively-speaking, everything falls into place.

Sidious knows that:

If he orchestrates a war designed to thin the Jedi's numbers, corrupt their values and plunge the galaxy into chaos...

If he wants to draft the Jedi - peace-keeping diplomats who’d never willingly join the fray - to fight in his war...

... then the only way they won't resist the draft and abstain from fighting is if they think joining the conflict will save lives.

So he creates a set of cruel, sadistic villains for them to face, opponents who will target innocent civilians at every turn...

... and instead of lifeless droids, he prepares for the Jedi an army of men... living, mortal people who, despite being well-trained, will be completely out of their league when facing the likes of Dooku...

... Ventress...

... Grievous...

... Savage Opress...

... or the defoliator, a tank that annihilates organic matter.

Thus, in order to save as many clone and civilian lives, the Jedi join the fray despite knowing that doing so will corrupt their values. 

And as the war rages on, a bond of respect is formed between the two groups.

Clearly, the Jedi don't like the fact that the Republic is using the clones to fight a war, but for that matter, they don't like being in a war, in fact they advocated against it.

However, it's happening regardless of their issues with the idea or personal philosophies. Said The Clone Wars writer Henry Gilroy:

"I’d rather not get into the Jedi’s philosophical issues about an army of living beings created to fight, but the Jedi are in a tough spot themselves, being peacekeepers turned warriors trying to save the Republic."

And bear in mind, the Jedi are basically space psychics, the clones are living beings that they can individually feel in the Force... 

... so the Jedi feel every death but need to move on, regardless, only being able to mourn the troopers at the end of every battle.

We see this in the Legends continuity too, by the way.

(that is, when the writers actually try to engage with the narrative)

Also, if you ask the clones, they’re grateful the Jedi have their backs.

When Depa Billaba voices her concerns about how the war is impacting the Jedi's principles, troopers Grey and Styles are quick to make it clear how grateful they all are for the Jedi's involvement:

So the clones aren't the Jedi's slaves. If anything, they're both slaves of the Republic (considering how low the Jedi's status actually is in the hierarchy).

Only I'd argue the clones have it much, much worse. 

The Senate sees the Jedi as "ugh, the holier-than-thou space-monk lapdogs who work for us"... but a Jedi has the option to give up that responsibility. They can leave the Order, no fuss or stigma. 

A clone trooper cannot leave the GAR! If they do, they’re marked for treason and execution. Again, they’re not perceived as “people”.

And it doesn’t help that the Kaminoans, the clones’ very creators, see the troopers as products/units/merchandise. A notion that the Jedi are quick to correct whenever they get the chance.

How The Clone Wars writers describe the clones' relationship with the Jedi.

George Lucas hasn’t spoken much about this subject aside from the quote from further up. But to be fair... the Prequels aren’t about the clones’ dynamic with the Jedi, so it makes sense that he wouldn’t talk on that subject so much.

He did mention that part of The Clone Wars’ perks is that he could:

“Do stories about some of the individual clones and get to know them.”

But that’s as far as it gets. 

So for this part, I'm just gonna let Dave Filoni, showrunner of The Clone Wars and the upcoming series Ahsoka, and TCW writer Henry Gilroy - both of whom worked closely with Lucas - take the wheel. They make themselves pretty clear on how the clone/Jedi dynamic is meant to be viewed. 

Here’s Henry Gilroy:

"In my mind, the Jedi see the clones as individuals, living beings that have the same right to life as any other being, but understand that they have a job to do."

"The clones see the Jedi as their commanding officers on one hand, but also, at least subconsciously, they look to them for clues to social/moral behavior."    

"Some clones may find themselves getting philosophical leadership from the Jedi that helps them answer some of the deeper questions of life."    

"We thought this was a great opportunity to show how the Jedi interact with clones. Specifically, Yoda in a teaching role of the clones, who were socially new, who kind of grew up— who were created to fight, and he really broadened their horizons and helped them realize there was a great big universe out there that was bigger than just fighting and killing."    

And here’s Dave Filoni’s comments:

"I truly believe that the Jedi try to humanize their clones and make them more individual, as Henry says."    

"I think we saw that in Revenge of the Sith, when the Clones were colorful and named under the Jedi Generals, and then in the final shots of the film with Palpatine and Vader near the new Death Star, the ships are grey, the color and life is sucked out. The Stormtroopers are only numbers and identified by black and white armor or uniforms in A New Hope." 

"The soldiers have become disposable to the Emperor."    

"That is something the Jedi would never do."    

"Yoda teaching the clones much like he taught Luke. ‘Cause that was kind of natural for [the Jedi], a natural instinct to take to these clones like they’re students."    

None of the above quotes from two different writers of The Clone Wars, who had many interactions with George Lucas, frame the Jedi and the clones’ relationship in a negative way. 

How much more proof do we need that "the clones were slaves of the Jedi” isn’t the intended narrative?

My point being that while the clones' ordeal is indeed horrible, the Jedi have nothing to do with it. The narrative of The Clone Wars always frames it as the fault of the Sith, the Senate and the Kaminoans.

If you go by the intended narrative, the Jedi were the clones' teachers and brothers-in-arms. The clones and the Jedi were not just comrades.

They were friends.

[shootingstarpilot]

Do you have any advice for writing Mace Windu?

Hello friend! I've been sitting on this for a while, because everyone's got their own interpretations, but mine is based on an idea I was struggling to put words to.

(Caveat that I have not read Legends material, that people can write what they like, etc. etc.)

The way I see it, Lucas specializes in writing stories in terms of themes and archetypes. This is why certain dialogue choices or the development of certain relationships can be... clunky, let's go with that. Characters (Obi-Wan and Anakin fall into their own category, sure) are written primarily as archetypes. You have Yoda as the wise old sage, Sidious as the ultimate evil-

And Mace Windu as the ultimate good.

We see this in the Chancellor's office, right? During the final showdown. This is the moment where Anakin makes his choice- stay in the Light or Fall- and the characters visually representing that choice are Palpatine and Mace. He's the Master of the Order. He's raised a Padawan who sits on the Council with him. He's an incredibly skilled swordsman- hell, his fighting style of choice (Vaapad) epitomizes how clearly he's mastered the art of internal balance!

All of that to say- his whole character is built around the idea that he is the Good Guy. That would be the one piece of writing advice I would give. If you're wondering how to write him, start with that idea- that he is written to represent the absolute opposite of Sidious. He's the ultimate good. He is the illuminating Light to Sidious' corrupting Dark. This is why antagonistic portrayals of him never ring true to me- they're coming from a foundational understanding that I simply do not subscribe to. It reeks of a fundamental misunderstanding of his character and of the whole saga's themes.

(And also racism. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the racism that too often plays a significant role.)

All of that being said, what might it look like to write from the foundation of Mace being the representation of ultimate good? The good thing about characters being written as archetypes is that it gives us fans a significant amount of freedom in determining what those characters look like when they're written as characters. Different people will have different takes, but for me:

Well, first off- he's the epitome of a Jedi. So all of what that entails- he is fundamentally kind, fundamentally compassionate, and fundamentally in control of himself.

He's funny. I think he has a very dry sense of humor, and that he finds joy in the smallest things.

He loves so much. He loves his Padawan, he loves his friends, he loves his family, he loves the Republic- he loves the galaxy enough to go to war for it, and he loves the men who'll kill his people.

There will never be a situation where he has the capacity to help and chooses not to.

And last but not least, I choose to believe that this man can bake pastries with the best of them. In my heart of hearts, he's a stress baker, and he mends his socks with purple thread.

Hope this helps!

[jackdaw-kraai]

I think there’s something rather strange going on with all the folks who insist that the Jedi Order in the PT was right and didn’t forbid love and Anakin should just have followed their teachings when the whole point of the prequels is that they are prequels. They come before the OT, and the OT proves the Jedi wrong. They literally do not make sense if they don’t do that.

Luke, in the original trilogy, gains his ultimate triumph, his ultimate victory, because he loved in defiance of the teachings of the old Order. He quite literally had the ghosts of the past telling him, explicitly and without ambiguity, that he has to put his love for his father aside and kill him, as is the duty of a Jedi. Luke has the weight of millennia of teachings weighing down on his shoulders, telling him they knew and know better than a young, inexperienced man barely out of his teenager years. That he should follow their teachings or be destroyed. That is an immense weight to carry, and many people would and explicitly have given in to it in-universe. What are your feelings and ideals in the face of such immense legacy, after all?

But Luke doesn’t give in.

He doesn’t bend.

He says “I may be young, and I may be new, but I believe to my heart and soul that love matters more than this legacy. Matters more than your teachings.” And he says this to the ghosts of his mentors. That is such a powerful moment and one I can’t believe George Lucas didn’t create deliberately for even a second. This young man, being told he has to kill or die trying for a system that is dead or dying itself, that couldn’t survive itself, and refusing to do so. He is the living refusing to continue the violence of a dead generation. He is the young man refusing the draft into a war the old generation started, saying “peace and love matters more than you being right.” He is the embodiment of breaking the cycle.

And the movies vindicate him.

The main villain vindicates him with his last dying breath.

Darth Vader, dying, says “You were right.” and admits he and his were wrong. The main antagonist, Luke’s nemesis, in the face of his son’s immense, defiant love, gives way and does the impossible: he comes back to the light and dies a Jedi. The very thing the old Order says was impossible.

They were wrong. They have to be. The narrative demands it, the movies don’t make sense without it.

The solution was never to continue the cycle of the old Order, or Luke would have failed there, would have failed when he said “I am a Jedi, like my father before me.” And claimed that defiant, deviant, condemned definition of being a Jedi over the one presented to him by the Grandmaster of the old Order. If the old Order was right, Luke would have to be wrong. Be wrong about love, be wrong about laying down the sword, be wrong about refusing to fight. He would have to be wrong.

But the old Order is dead, explicitly killed by a monster, in some part, of their own making. It’s members only existing as bones in the ground or ghosts speaking from beyond the grave. They did not deserve it, it should not have been inflicted on them, but the narrative is clear on this: “The old way is dead, and was dying for a long time before that. Long live the new.”

Luke is that new. Luke is the breaking of the cycle, the reforging of swords into ploughs, the extended hand. Luke says “I don’t care how much I was hurt, I refuse to hurt you back, and you don’t need to hurt me either.”

“We can end this together and choose love instead.”

And Darth Vader, killer of the Jedi, End of the Order, lays down his arms as well, and reaches back as Anakin, saying “You were right.”

It wasn’t Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, or even Ahsoka who achieved the ultimate victory in the end, following the tenants of the old Order. It was Luke. Young, inexperienced Luke, who saw that the age of legacy handed to him was only history, that the sword handed to him as his life was only a tool, and that the decrees of the dead were only advice. And he took it all, said “thank you for your experience, but I’ve got it from here,” and laid it all down to instead extend an open hand towards his enemy.

And his victory, his ultimate triumph, his vindication, was that he was proven right when his enemy reached back and became just another person. Just another person, just like him.

The Jedi did not deserve what happened to them, and they did not deserve to die. But the story is clear on this: the Jedi of old were wrong, and the Jedi of new, the Last Jedi, was right. No sword or death will ever end the rule of the sword or end the bloodshed. But love?

Love can ignite the stars.

[intermundia]

grrahhhh attachment doesn't mean what disney star wars says it means and at this point i feel like i'm going fully insane about it. you can make the jedi the narrative antagonists for your edgy dark-side acolyte story without mischaracterizing the entire order and their philosophy. it's possible for the jedi to be the narrative antagonists and not be villainous or cruel or stupidly wrong and inhumanly demanding about how emotions work. the jedi can just be working at cross purposes to the hero while still advocating a normal amount of mindfulness and compassionate love. i'm losing my mind. can the producers and writers like. talk to a buddhist maybe even once before getting the privilege to write the jedi order. please. god.

[mylastmoleculeofserotonin]

Can we take a moment to appreciate how well written and complex of a character Mae is? For the first 4 episodes, she just seems like a regular Sith/Dark Sider who hates the Jedi and wants to kill them, with hints that the Jedi may have wronged her in the past. However, in episodes 5 and 7, it becomes clear that her loyalty and motivations revolve around her family. When she thought her entire family had died, she set off to avenge their deaths, but when she saw that Osha was alive, she immediately abandoned that quest and betrays her master to try to reunite with her sister who she tried to shoot her on sight. But then, she gets trapped in the forest with Qimir and all she wants is to escape with Osha. However, when she realizes that the Jedi have outright lied to Osha about their family's death, she swaps places with her in an extremely desperate and risky attempt to get Qimir to un-brainwash her and tell her the truth so they have a chance at reconcilliation. Then, when they meet back on Brendok, Mae tries to tell Osha what happened, but when she sees that Osha is still brainwashed, she sets an elaborate trap to get Sol to confess to his crimes so that Osha will finally believe her. And when she does, she snaps and kills Sol and Mae is right by her side to help her accept what happens and to comfort her when she feels guilty about killing Sol. Then, when they realize that they can't escape together, Mae sacrifices her memories of everything, including her sister, the person who she loves the most and around whom her life revolves, in order to spare her from the Jedi. And if that isn't amazingly deep and complex characterization for a secondary antagonist, let alone a Star Wars character, I don't know what is.

[crowhoonter]

KotOR's Sith vs SWtOR's Empire

It's rather interesting to look at the "True Sith" as described by Kreia in KotOR 2 vs the Sith Empire we got in SWtOR. Back in KotOR, the True Sith were implied to be something near cosmic horror. Beings that had been changed by the Dark Side beyond any convention of human understanding, things that could no longer be reasoned or compromised with in any fashion, and would very possibly pose a threat to all life when they returned. Granted, what we know of them from KotOR is part conjecture and most of it comes from Kreia, who is an untrustworthy source at the best of times.

Then SWtOR roles around with the Sith Empire and they are... very much not that. They are a functioning, if dystopian, society with actual values and culture. They have wants and desires, goals outside just blind slaughter and killing. Y'know, like real people. Granted, I suppose the threat to all life did carry over with Vitiate and his whole deal, but he hardly is representative of everyone in the Empire. He is just a freak like that.

This drastic change in portrayal does make sense when you look at the writing teams goals with the faction. Obsidian and Chris Avellone in particular wanted to make a major big bad for what they thought would be the upcoming KotOR 3 (may it rest in peace), and wanted that threat to be something different than the typical Star Wars fanfare. As we know however, KotOR 3 never got made and instead became SWtOR, and Bioware wanted to make it palatable to more general audiences so they copy-pasted the Galactic Empire over into the past with some minor changes.

Of course, in doing this, they could no longer follow with the original idea of the True Sith. Making an entire society innately evil and desiring to wipe out all life has some... icky implications. So instead we got the Sith Empire, a still terrible and evil state, but one that is an actual society. The True Sith of KotOR were just made into one man, Vitiate, and everyone else in the empire is a mostly normal person, or as close as they can be to being normal.

While I would have loved to see the original vision of the True Sith, I can't help but believe the Sith Empire is the better than what we would've gotten. Vitiate, being honest, sucks as an antagonist. He's boring, uninspired, and lacks the charisma that made Palpatine fun. He got a bit better in Knights of the Fallen Empire, but still was overall underwhelming. I can't imagine something where legions of people like him are the main antagonist. The conflict would probably be reminiscent of the Fate of the Jedi books once Abeloth got introduced. Boring, impersonal, and just tedious to get through.

Granted, a villain like that can be done well, as exemplified by KotOR 2's own Darth Nihilus. He works because he is completely void. Nihilus' discerning feature is his lack of personality, being subsumed into his own hunger. Power has destroyed and reduced him, but even in such a state, you can make out the faint outline of the man he once was. His last shred of humanity showing through when he spared Visas Marr. A twisted sense of compassion, but compassion nonetheless. He is tragic, but still thoroughly inhuman and evil. The problem would arise in trying to make legions of characters like this. It would wear thin fast.

Side tangent aside, I really love the Sith Empire we got. It is, as of now, maybe the most complex view we have gotten of the Sith outside of books. They are still thoroughly evil, but it gives some insight into what made them into that. Whether it be trauma, ambition, grief, or even a sense of duty, the Sith have actual motivations besides kill and rule. It demonstrates that at their core, they are still people, not just evil caricatures.

This got longer than I expected, sorry about that. Just have a lot of thoughts about these fellas.

[chevelleneech]

Leslye’s latest interview kinda makes me seem like a writer or something, idk🧐

J/k! But on a serious note, I do think my interest in screenwriting informs a lot of how I interpret the things I watch. I’m not pretending to be exceptional or better than anyone else, but I am going to pat myself on the back the tiniest bit, because I said something similar to what she said about Qimir knowing Osha wasn’t Mae in the apothecary. He knew, and her power drew him in almost instantly.

As well, in this post about Sol confusing Mae and Osha when they were younger, I said I was pretty sure it was done to highlight just how little Sol understood his emotions and his supposed connection to Osha. He felt one, yes, but that doesn’t mean he knew enough about the twins to decide he had a right to act on it.

Anyway, this was fun to read and kind of learn what I (and many other people surely) were right in our interpretations of. Sol meant well, yet acted wrong. And although Qimir was painted as the antagonist this season (even though I think the secret of what happened on Brendok is the true villain) he still sees Osha for who she is, no matter the fact that he wants her to tap into her power for personal gain, to an extent.

This understanding also informs why and almost how Leslye foresees Oshamir coming about. Because in other parts, she speaks about how Qimir still doesn’t say directly he is a Sith, and above she mentions how he feels the pull of her power and wants to train her same as Sol, and how that points to who her true Master will be.

If her words are to be taken at face value, Oshamir will happen, I think, because their Master and Pupil relationship won’t work. Sol was a Jedi raised on honor, peace, loyalty, control, and authority. Yet he struggled well into adulthood with most of those things, which caused mass murder. Qimir, based on what he’s said, was also raised on those things yet realized the latter three were unsustainable. Which Osha has felt since she was a child that unquestioned loyalty to authority figures whom only give you a semblance of control wasn’t what she wanted forever.

So Qimir is going to be training someone who is almost too much like him in beliefs, yet someone who likely isn’t as non-discriminate in her killing. Meaning they’re going to butt heads over what is right and wrong, and end up having to talk more to understand each other’s side better. And getting to know each other’s moral lines and triggers to avoid, inevitably grows them closer together. Therefore, their Master/Pupil dynamic is thrown out the window, because there’s already sexual tension between them and they haven’t even fought for real yet, lol.

[eelfuneral]

I think that a core frustration that I have with the Jedi Discourse is the fact that a lot of us criticizing the Jedi are doing so on a meta-textual level, and we are being met with pushback that is totally reliant on authorial intent.

Yes, I understand that the Jedi were written to be aspirational and good and that the Sith are card-carrying villains, and I think that’s a given. My issues with the Jedi stem from where the writing produces something that has tension with this “these are the good guys” authorial intent. I have a hard time, for example, seeing the Jedi as perfectly heroic when the story gives them a slave army and acts like the writers were being held at gunpoint and instructed not to explore the really concerning implications of that.

I understand what a protagonist is and I grasp the concept of antagonist, and I understand who is who in the context of Star Wars. I just don’t feel like the Jedi as written by Lucas and co always live up to my personal standards of goodness and heroism. The intention is there, but the execution falls flat.

[not-that-n]

I think Kotor 2 is a really funny game when it comes to the average analysis of it's themes, because it managed to create such a compelling antagonist that most people just kinda get lost into trying to analyze her words and actions through her apparent philosophical stand when she is just written to be a great hypocrite, something that they almost always fail to mention in the average analysis of Kreya's character.

Like she makes some points, that sometimes helping others without thinking about your actions can hurt them more than you could imagine and says some other things that are almost true but she frames them as a philosophy of might, you shouldn't help others because you are depriving them of their strength, because through suffering there's growth, through struggle you reach enlightenment, through individual freedom you reach apotheosis. She then reaches the conclusion that God, aka the Force, is the biggest chain of all and to be truly free is to kill the force, to reject fate completely.

She acts like she has some sort of moral high ground over the sith and the Jedi when in reality she is not much different. In a way, she does have some beliefs she follows without question, she still uses the force and if you ask her about it she admits the hypocritical nature of her argument, first comparing to a poison and then saying that that's just an argument of an old woman trying to justify it. She always talks about how there are no chains, how you must be completely free of fate because there's no determinate outcome, whatever happens being a result of your strength, yet she still betrays you by the end because there must always be a Darth Treya, there must always be someone that directly betrays the order in it's moment of need. That's fate, that should, and will, always happen.

I always read her admiration for the player originating from our achievement of her goals without becoming hypocrites like she is, something I'm sure she is aware of as hinted by her dialogue in her last fight. The player rejected the force, reject fate, through strenght of will alone, using it more alike a weapon than a dogma, but the player, in a way, still uses the force mostly as a way of unknowingly influence others, their strength is not in self isolation in pursue of the strength of an individual through the death of morals and complete freedom, but instead in connection with others.

In the dark side ending the player becomes Kreya, a hypocrite that acts on their own desires, on their own impulses, because they can, afterall they had the strength to reject the force once so they are strong enough to do whatever. On the light side ending the exile takes the correct path, not following Kreya but transcending her, becoming better than her, understanding that you can overcome the chains of fate not through individual freedom but through connection, in the light side ending you archive what Kreya never could.

I always read Kotor 2 as a story of abuse and trying to grow out of it, in this case Kreya being the abuser, breaking both Scion and Nihilus causing them to become what she hated the most, and the player character being her new target, the exile being able to either follow the narrative's themes and be able to grow despite the abuse or fail and become the abuser themselves, perpetuating the cycle, the chain, that I always read as what the force is supposed to symbolize in this story.

Kreya is a spiteful person that believes that she can not grow, that she can not change and become better, she accepts herself in her own hypocrite nature because of this belief, she understands that through her own argument, one of complete freedom and transcending any chains that bind us, she is a failure like the rest of her students because she follows her own chain, she believes she most perpetuate the cycle of abuse.

That's the reason why I always disagree witht he concept that Kreya steals the show from both Scion and Nihilus because both of them are different outcomes that the exile could have become, both are victims of abuse that thought they couldn't change.

There's this one study I always think about, how kids that came from abusive households were more reluctant to let go of their parents, and Scion reminds me of this, rejecting Kreya at every opportunity but being unable to let go of her, she defined who he became as a person, a failure in both of their eyes. That's why he is so mad when you are going to confront Kreya, he thinks of you as her favorite, as the one that didn't become a failure, as someone who could reject and grow from their abuse when he couldn't. And I always found so interesting that the way you beat him os through words because, well, because you try convincing him that he can change, that he can grow, you beat him not through a fight, through a show of strength, but through showing, arguing, that the abuse he went through is not an unmoving chain, that he has the capabilities of change. And he doesn't believe you, never does, he would rather die than think about that, that admit you are right, he reacts the same way Kreya does, dying rather than admit they were wrong. It feels incredibly tragic that this happens because you know it could end up in another way, you are that other possible outcome.

And Nihilus is a simpler character because most of the content related to him was cut, but I always read him as the complete rejection of Kreya, as doing the exact opposite of whatever she said even when it still ends up hurting him, becoming a shell of what he was once. That said, most of that is just me guessing something that would fit with my reading of the themes and is never actually said in the game, it's kinda hinted but I admit there's not enough information to confidently say that.

Anyways, my point is that I find kotor 2 quite a compelling story and, while I understand why most people only ever discuss Kreya, I feel slightly disappointed that most discussions of the game never really talk about anything else the game presents

[david-talks-sw]

Hey, remember how I've been writing pro-Jedi posts here and on Quora since about 2020 and how there's awesome blogs on this site that have been doing it for even waaaaay longer?

And like, all these pro-Jedi meta accounts and posts were really a minority in a fandom that, for a while, had kept repeating the same "ACSHUALLY, the Jedi are the bad guys if you think about it!" line?

Until The Acolyte began to be marketed as a story seen from the Sith's POV, where the Jedi would be antagonistic... and suddenly a buncha people came out of the woodwork saying "the Jedi were the good guys!"

Remember how I previously said that this all felt to me as if this was all really just a big chunk of Star Wars fans going "ewwww girls"?

I stand by it.

Edit: AND it's really frustrating. Because now the counter-arguments are stuff that I know and can demonstate is factually incorrect...

... but so if I say anything, I'll get thrown into the mix with the "ewww girls" crowd. Fuck's sake.

[ahsoka-in-a-hood]

I don't. The thing is I am a Star Wars Prequels fan first and foremost, here. I like the original trilogy, it's fine, but that's not what keeps me awake at night.

I don't give a shit about the sith. I don't find them interesting. I was always here for the impossible situations the jedi and the protagonist senators and other kinds of heroes were finding themselves in. The ones without an obvious answer. The ones they could get wrong. The ones they would get wrong because it's a tragedy, and sometimes I like to cry my eyes out over made-up people.

And even after several years of fandom, that's still basically what I want. I want the jedi (and other characters) to be put in the situations. I want them be unsure what the right path is. I like watching them make mistakes.

Some call it nuance, some call it flaws. I'm tempted to just call it being people. That's the sweet spot I'm after: not saints, not devils, just people. People fuck up. People are very varied. They have a culture- does every aspect need to be dissected for faults? Can it not exist even in a state of imperfection?

It can get complicated, maybe. I've encountered plenty the attitude that the jedi are evil because they are humans but are meant to be more than that. I have blocked absolutely relentless commenters of this who would show up on every post with this exact philosophy

… But it can become a subtle distinction. For some time I was blissfully unaware of Filoni's views on the simple basis that the jedi in the clone wars were more real and human than the generic antagonists I tended to see in fanfic.

It is a distinction, though. Human (derogatory) and human (empathetically) are different approaches, which does show up here and there.

The thing about star wars, and the prequels, and the jedi, is that no matter how you try to slice it, the story of a genocide is inextricably woven into a story about jedi. Every one of your #shots fired about their eventual downfall is accompanied by…. a systemic extermination campaign by a nazi allegory……….. and even if that's not something you're willing to contemplate, that's just going to make people uncomfortable. Especially if you start adding talk about a shadowy cabal secretly controlling everything who also steal children etc. Listen, I know that the jedi are fictional. That's not what you should be considering when you say these things.

So you end up with these two fundamentally diametrically opposed stories:

Here's this religious minority who are literally in touch with their divine force. This does not make them gods, so they have flaws, weaknesses, and make mistakes. They are murdered. This is the beginning of an imperial age. (compassion is at the centre of their philosophy. anyone can be compassionate, with or without the force.)

Here's this bunch of corrupt overpowered secret police who hold their position by maintaining a mythology of super-humaness, but psyche! Wealthy elites are also degenerate humans, which is of course forgivable in US, but not THEM. They were supposed to be the model minority. KILL THEM