#Write whatever you want I appreciate you remembering cass exists and acknowledging her as a family member
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aingeal98 ¡ 1 year ago
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If you're going to write a fic that's twenty thousand or forty thousand words long, tag it Cassandra Cain, and then have her referenced four times in the entire story, have you considered not doing that. Have you considered that some people might like to find fics in the Cass tag that don't have her off in Hong Kong for the whole story or have her in one scene where the whole family is being introduced to Marinette or Danny Phantom or whoever the fuck and then never appear after that. Have you thought about why you feel the need to tag her in these fics when you barely even mention her.
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bigskydreaming ¡ 4 years ago
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Also its important to remember that canon has context too, and like....I refer back to canon as often as I do because IT is the context for fics and fanon.....but in the case of canon itself, the context is often the knowledge and perspective and even biases of the writer writing a piece of canon.
And that example from Batman and the Outsiders that @nightwingmyboi included for Dick’s conversation with Cass about his behavior towards her is a significant example of this because like......it has an extremely narrow context, with no sign in the narration there of any context OUTSIDE of what the writer is referencing.
What I mean by that is.....Dick actually was originally quite welcoming of Cass. He got along great with her, taught her all sorts of things, did his best to help her adjust.
The time when he wasn’t welcoming specifically, and seemed to take her adoption badly, is like.....directly about the time when Cass’ adoption first came up at all....in a story called Redemption Road.
Make no mistake, Dick very much acted like an ass to Cass there. Oh, even then not without reason, like, his behavior was characterized as him being suspicious due to the fact that Cass had recently been brainwashed into working for Deathstroke and killed again due to his control, and nowhere did Dick express that his issues were with Cass herself but rather that he was worried about taking it for granted that the brainwashing was gone and dealt with. With this particularly juxtaposed against the fact that Good Dad Bruce Wayne was very much on display throughout this story and Bruce was consistently characterized as being fully in Cass’ corner and showing none of his usual paranoia or concerns about something like whether they could trust someone who was recently brainwashed. Thus Dick kinda stepped into that role in the absence of Bruce assuming it as he normally would.
Now, personally, as much as I don’t LIKE how Dick acted towards Cass in that story, I’ve never considered it OOC....as I’ve always headcanoned it as being a bit of a prodigal son situation. In my mind, Dick was either consciously or unconsciously paralleling these circumstances with things like the time when he was brainwashed by the Church of Blood for a year....and he very much did NOT get a free pass on anything he did during that time (despite people promising they did understand it), with ‘decisions he’d made’ during that time frequently being brought up and thrown in his face afterward. 
So my read of that story was always in light of that, and the fact that Bruce was very much removed from Dick’s life at that specific time and was a non-entity in helping Dick recover from all of that......and so I headcanoned that Dick’s attitude towards Cass was at least a little bit influenced by him being resentful of seeing her get the unconditional support and understanding from Bruce that Dick got none of in an EXTREMELY similar situation, and very much could have used at the time. 
(Especially of relevance here IMO is the fact that Dick was very much in Limbo when it came to Bruce at that time, with the Church of Blood storyline happening when he was nineteen and thus no longer Bruce’s ward or legally bound to him in any way, estranged from him in every other way, and it would be years more until he was actually adopted....whereas in Redemption Road, Bruce’s actions were consistently geared towards getting Cass to accept that he didn’t blame her for what she’d done while brainwashed, that he did still very much want her to be part of his family, and here was his offer of adoption if she wanted it, as a result. Like....it was beat for beat EXACTLY what I imagined Dick wanted to happen in his own parallel circumstances back then, dreamed of happening, but very much DIDN’T happen...and here he was watching it happen with no acknowledgment whatsoever of when he experienced no similar drive from Bruce to show that he was understood, forgiven and wanted, at a time when he desperately wanted and needed all of that).
And thus Dick was acting and behaving towards Cass here in much the same manner as everyone had treated him when it was him in that position....with this not being hypocritical so much as him internalizing the idea that SOMEONE had to express this skepticism/judgment towards Cass here, in order for Dick to not raise long-dead and buried resentments of how all his friends and loved ones expressed that very same attitude towards him when it was him in this place. In order to be okay with that, he had to kinda internalize the idea that their behavior was valid and necessary and earned....which in turn made him internalize that it was valid and necessary and earned that someone express that behavior here and now.
BUT its not remotely in Dick’s nature to make excuses for his own behavior, or to cut himself slack....so its perfectly in character in my opinion for him to express the sentiments he’s expressing to Cass in that example. To focus SOLELY on his poor behavior and make the time when he wasn’t welcoming to her stand as if it was the entirety of their history together...when it wasn’t. At all. It was one small slice of their history, with a very specific context, that Dick certainly wasn’t about to bring up.....and that no one else brought up either, and thus it might as well not have existed.
So if I were writing that story, personally, I wouldn’t necessarily have done anything differently in characterizing Dick. I might have even had him say those exact same things to her about how he hadn’t been welcoming to her and had an issue with her adoption at that specific time.
BUT.....I would have contextualized this as being unreliable narration on his part, and used OTHERS, or even just him having other conversations elsewhere, to provide the context that I felt was necessary to explain WHY he’d acted the way he had, even without Dick himself offering that mindset up as an excuse.
Like, and there’s so many ways to contextualize that scene. You could have Cass herself push back against the idea that he was just wholly unwelcoming to her, and express that he had been really great at first and she’d really appreciated that, or even frame it as her expressing confusion as to WHY he’d acted that way towards her later, when he’d been so much more open with her before.
Or you could have Dick have conversations about that with others in his life, even in the form of making further self-recriminations against his behavior, like, getting down on himself for being such an ass to her there.....BUT using friends who knew him well to push back against the idea that this is just who he is rather than it being born of specific circumstances and his own issues....like maybe him talking about this with Roy or Kori and them raising the possibility “hey, I know this is a sore spot, but do you think that maybe the reason you reacted so badly to Cass there was because it brought up a lot of old stuff about that time you were brainwashed for a year?” Dick wouldn’t even have to agree with their assessment in the end, but it being raised as a possibility at ALL would at least allow readers to enter that context into their own interpretation of his actions and behavior and decide for themselves whether it played a role.
Or you could have Dick have a conversation with Bruce about it, with maybe even Bruce being the one to say, I’m a little surprised how harsh you were with Cass, as it doesn’t seem like you....and with this opening the door to Dick finally airing some long pent-up grievances in the form of him maybe only then just realizing himself that y’know what, it ISN’T like me, and now that I think about it its because it had nothing to do with Cass really, and it was more about me reacting off of how you were acting with her....and dealing/not dealing with the reality that it was exactly what I’d always wanted to see and hear from you back then, but you were nowhere to be found, and you certainly weren’t stepping in to protect me from people giving me crap for my brainwashed actions or expressing doubt about my trustworthiness/capabilities the way you were stepping into protect Cass from me expressing doubt about her trustworthiness, etc.
See what I mean? SO many possibilities there, all of which provide so much more meat and context to that particular story than Dick just being a douche to Cass because generic daddy issues or whatever.
But you gotta actually DRAW those connections in a story you’re writing, to go alongside the unreliable narration you’re having color Dick’s view of his own actions or behavior.....or else, those connections just flat out aren’t going to exist for most readers to be aware of or factor in to provide CONTEXT to Dick’s unreliable narration.
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teentitanimals ¡ 5 years ago
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Carrie Kelley in the Batfam
I freaking love Carrie Kelley, she’s so awesome. I desperately wish to see more content of her (I say, never even having read the comics she’s in- so sue me, I’ll get to it eventually). So, I’m taking it upon myself to write how I think she’d function with the rest of the Batfam! In ‘my’ version/understanding of the Batfam, she becomes Robin when Damian is AWOL. She quickly assumes the identity of Catgirl after Damian returns (angry, of course), and then eventually becomes Batgirl when no one else takes that mantle.
I personally view Carrie as someone who’s really, really eager to have a true family, and if she gets to kick criminals’ asses to have that family, then that’s just a big bonus. In basic, I see her as someone who’s very outwardly bubbly, energetic, eager to please, full of determination, enthusiastic, and somewhat stubborn, but has layers of doubt and anxiety expertly pushed down (as is the Bats’ way). In more depth, I see her as someone who knows what she has to do, and will do it no matter what. When she’s given an order, she will go through with it. When she needs to lead, she will. When she needs to follow, she will. Still though, she is inexperienced and untrained compared to the others, both on the physical side and emotional side. While she can put on that facade of coldness, strictness, when she no longer needs that mask, she can break down. For example, when she unhesitatingly punished that Batboy (Mutant guy) for killing some one, but later cried about it. She does what she believes needs to be done in the moment, but can often doubt or regret afterwards, when it’s safer to do so.
Anyway, here’s how I view her relationships with the Batfam! I might do this with some of the other Batfam as well, like Duke :)
Bruce - Carrie instantly views Batman as a parental figure. Her parental figures barely even remember she exists, so when Batman finally accepted her temporarily as Robin, she immediately started to view him as a positive adult role model in her life. She’s always very eager to impress him and relishes in every moment she’s near him, but she can get super anxious when he’s silent, often interrupting it as him ignoring her, just like her real parents do.
Alfred - Carrie loves Alfred, no surprise there. Who doesn’t, after all? She’s only seen her grandparents a few times, so it’s much like what she did with Bruce, instantly viewing him as a grandfather figure. She loves getting him little gifts and enjoys helping him with the work he does around the manor. She would spend every moment telling him how much she appreciates him, if she could.
Selina - She’s a bit hesitant with Selina, because she doesn’t really know much about the woman past her sort of being Batman’s “lover” and also a criminal dressed in a catsuit sometimes. She wants to view Selina as a mother figure, but she gets nervous and shy around her. The two do bond over a love of cats and dogs, though. (I actually have an idea/AU where Carrie becomes Catgirl but as Catwoman’s ‘sidekick’.)
Commissioner Gordon - She has a good amount of respect towards the Commissioner, along with a certain amount of pity. Sometimes, when she’s able to, she’ll prompt him to tell stories to her, and just sit down and listen. She wants to know him better, maybe become like uncle and niece, but she doesn’t really know how to do that.
Kate - Carrie takes well to Batwoman, admiring and respecting her a great deed. She adapts easily to viewing Kate as an aunt. She isn’t as eager to impress Kate like she is with Bruce, but she does value her opinion a lot. Carrie really enjoys hanging out with Kate outside of their masks too, and finds her to be really fun and cool, especially compared to Bruce- although, she would never tell Bruce that to his face.
Dick - Carrie was really, really anxious for Dick’s approval. No, not for being Robin, but rather for being accepted into the family. He was the eldest sibling. The first sibling. Needless to say, getting his immediate acceptance was so relieving it was almost addicting. And, not to mention, Dick was the first person to really hug her in a long while. A full on, arms wrapped around, tight squeeze, warm, loving kind of hug. She about cried on the spot. An unfortunate side effect is that having Dick hug her and seeing him hug everyone else made her Dick’s rival as the most touchy-feely of the Batfam. At least the fam has better luck escaping Carrie’s hugs than they do Dick’s.
Barbara - Carrie also was really anxious for Babs’s approval as well, this time more focused on being a Batgirl than with being accepted into the family. The two aren’t super close, or super chatty, but Carrie always appreciates Babs’s easy and quiet acceptance of her. Even when Carrie feels ignored and forgotten by the rest of the family, she can always count on having Babs simply just greeting her, or sending her out on a mission, just a casual acknowledgement of her existence. In return, Carrie also enjoys giving her small gifts from time to time like she does with Alfred.
Jason - She was a bit nervous initially meeting the infamous Red Hood, but she covered it well with guts and confidence. After she overcame her wariness of him, she definitely tried a bit harder to impress him, viewing him as the ‘cool older brother’. Jason isn’t all that touchy-feely with her like Dick, but every pat on the head, shoulder or back feels like ‘He Accepts Me as His Little Sister’ heaven to her. The two don’t always mesh well together, but they don’t have any animosity or history between them, so it’s easy for them to get along well.
Cass - Cass both fills Carrie with anxiety and love. On one hand, Cass is often very silent, and that really activates Carrie’s ‘She’s Ignoring Me, She Doesn’t Care About Me’, but on the other hand, Cass is very warm and comforting, even without words. Carrie would compare her to a ‘blanket’- warm, soft, comforting, always there for you, even without saying anything, but sometimes when it gets too hot (too silent), you need to get rid of the blanket until its colder (too loud) again. It’s an odd simile, but Cass finds it amusing. Cass more than makes up with her silence with many friendly pats and hugs to her new little sister (which Carrie was ecstatic to find out Cass viewed her as such almost as immediately as Carrie viewed her as an older sister).
Luke - Carrie doesn’t see Luke or Batwing all that much, but she kind of enjoys that. It’s like having a distant cousin you see on holidays that you get along well with. It really solidifies the whole ‘family’ thing for her. She likes hanging out with his siblings, too.
Harper - Harper, too, is more like a cousin, but one Carrie is just in awe of. She definitely wants to get to know Harper better, but they haven’t found the time too.
Tim - She often finds it hard to get along with Tim. Not that they clash heads or anything, it’s more like an awkward silence (and you know by now how much she hates silence). Carrie is loud and energetic even without coffee, yet Tim sometimes can barely stay awake even with coffee. She also isn’t as good with tech as the other, having less experience and access to even the more simpler digital devices due to her parents neglect of her and her childhood. She admires his intelligence and skill greatly, and often feels inferior to him because of it. It’s weird, because she also knows and acknowledges that the rest of the Batfam is greater than her in most skills simply due to more experience and training, but for some reason Tim’s skills make her feel worthless and unimportant to the family. Still though, the two find ways to get along, even if it is just something as minor as Carrie offering to get him some coffee and watching him work. Tim has offered to teach her more on tech too, which she’s pretty eager about, even if a lot of it flies over her head.
Steph - Once again, Steph is one of those people Carrie highly admires. Steph was, after all, both a Robin and Batgirl like Carrie too. Plus, Carrie just really loves Steph’s personality, humor, and wit. She’s the older sister Carrie wants to impress the most. The two got along immediately, personalities bouncing well off each other, like an echo chamber but better. Steph greatly enjoys having a little sister to teach ‘girl stuff’ too, and is happy to pull Carrie along on any trips to the mail, or to paint nails with her and Cass. Inviting Carrie to watch reality TV and musicals with her and Damian. Their text messages between each other consist solely of memes and random ramblings done at 2am. Bruce often has to separate them on patrols or missions, because Steph brings out Carrie’s ‘lack of brain cells’ side, making her more eager to just jump head-on into danger without a proper plan or instructions to do so.
Duke - She and Duke are both the ‘new kids’, but Duke knows just a little bit more about the Batfamily than her. He enjoys showing her ‘the ropes’ when getting used to the family’s insanity. She’s more rambunctious and eager to join in on the chaos than he was, but they can still bond over giving each other those little glances of ‘Are you seeing this too? I’m not crazy right?’ and ‘They can’t be serious.’ Carrie enjoys the more calmed down energy she can have with him. Everyone else in the family’s high energy brings out hers, but Duke has that perfect balance that she appreciates. Even someone as eager for familial attention can be overwhelmed at times. Sometimes they just enjoy calmly, casually talking about whatever, relaxing as they eat, or read, or watch TV.
Damian - Damian is by far the one Carrie admires the most. She’s the one she craves the most acceptance from, and Damian being Damian, it’s very hard to get it, especially since she was a ‘copycat’, a ‘temporary replacement’, a ‘little girl scout looking at the big leagues’ to him. Despite Damian’s many, many insults and jabs and overall disrespect to her, she took it as best she could in stride, not wanting to upset him further. Much like Jason was Tim’s Robin, Damian was Carrie’s Robin, the one she looked up to. It’s why she so easily gave up being Robin and became Catgirl when Damian came back. It was his role, and Carrie didn’t mean to ‘steal it’ from him, or to ‘replace him’, just to help Batman when he didn’t have anyone else. It takes awhile, a long while, but Damian begins to warm up to her, slowly, slowly, accepting her as his sister. Eventually, he actually becomes pretty protective of her, after all, Robin and Batgirl are just as iconic a pair as Robin and Batman. Despite Damian being younger than Carrie (in my eyes), Carrie views him as a protective older brother. They enjoy taking care of all their pets and animals together, and complaining about school to one another, and crashing on the couch after a long day, watching random shows until they fall asleep and one of their older siblings has to carry them to their respective beds.
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onetruesporkbot ¡ 7 years ago
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One or the Other...Preferably the Non-Stupid One
A website I frequent, the Outhouse, has an article pertaining to Detective Comics #980, and the potential effect it (and to a degree, Flash War) has on the lives of Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown. I’ve mentioned my problems with their reinventions before, but...well, I’m doing it again. Sue me. And yeah, this’ll be a long one, so maybe go for a walk around the block to stretch your legs first, make sure you got to the bathroom, and maybe grab a drink before reading on.
I've had my own ideas on how to fix the error of Cass and Steph’s altered histories. Mostly they involve retconning Harper Row into either non-existence or just not being an attention/glory leech on the Bat-Family’s butt-cheek, praised as a paragon of splendor. Even if someone can find evidence that editorial/executive mandates forced the spotlight on that character throughout the Eternal books, the interpretation/execution of that, vis-a-vie how she affected Stephanie's and Cass' lives, is on Tynion (and, granted, the other writers who were working off his ideas), and acts as a basis for his ‘Tec run. As is her lack of development, off-putting but still happily accepted bad attitude and generally not really doing much, but still being treated like royalty by her experienced betters. She’s a bad character, and none of the Bats or Birds, acting in their right mind, would tolerate her like they did. THAT is the core of the problem with those stories and these reinventions, and they aren't solved simply because Harper became the Mr. Wick to 'Tec's Drew Carey Show, and just isn't seen very often later on.
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           Not the most fair comparison, because the depraved, abusive, lying,        cheating, over-privileged misery-mongering manager is by far more likable.
While heavy-handedly-hoisted Harper is a large part of the problem, there are others where these characters are concerned. Steph's reinvention started out well enough, but then Tynion decided to charter her a flight from "beginner" to "accomplished crime-fighter" in a mere few issues. Stephanie lost a big part of what I've seen draw her to readers (like a friend of mine): her tenacity. Instead of a girl that kept doing the hero thing after being frequently told by those around her, including Platinum-Status Crook-Scarer Batman, to quit, and publicly (off-line) actually spoiling her Dad’s schemes, training hard to better herself...she was remade into a girl running around with her mask down half the time, leaving vague hints online that are ignored or hacked away. It’s later discovered didn't really want to catch her Dad, regardless of what that meant for Gotham, a city she’s quick to abandon when the s#&t hits the fan. She could swing across the sky and fight off assassins despite little or no training (excelled in this regard only by...you know blue). So, she’s got a skill-level and bravery on par with vigilantes with years of experience...until she doesn’t.
Cassie's changes are the biggest offense to me. While Steph started somewhat strong and had any thunder thoroughly absorbed by Harper, Cass' entire EXISTENCE became tied to Row. Every movement, every action, every breath was about some unlikable wastrel with delusions of perfection. Remaking a pre-existing character's life all about a newer one’s is even worse when that newer one has all the originality of the comic Diesel (see Linkara's review for context). Their "friendship" had zero basis, other than one party's guilt and the other party needing constant attention and praise heaped upon her. It makes Cassie’s her entire motivation more about appeasing Harper, proving herself to Harper, even asking for death in Harper’s name...as opposed to realizing that, regardless of who the victim was, killing someone was wrong. I don't recall if they ever named the guy Cassie originally killed, but it was better that he didn't have some "important" connection to a character like a bad soap opera desperate for ratings. Now it’s felt more like “killing that person was wrong...because it was Harper’s Mom.” Just like the Wayne Murders, it's better and more poignant if it were left random. But again, the problems go beyond Harper. Having Cass speak so early changes her "neurologically atypical brain", or how, when you think about it, slaughtering children and piling them up (seriously, what the eff, Jimbo?) kind of defeats the whole revelation Cass has when she takes her first life. Even if she feels she has no family, Cass taking the name of a serial killer makes no sense...I would think the body count would outweigh “feeling alone” element to the name (really, Jimmy’s stretching for that one). Then there’s the fact that Tynion’s blithering idiot version of David Cain never loved his daughter, except as a passing reference in his kamikaze strike, which was mostly about Mother not appreciating him enough. And probably just an excuse to kill another characters father because some at DC has Daddy Issues. I mean, they cut Cluemaster’s throat, THEN cut Orphan-Cain’s throat...but he somehow survived...oy, now I’m remembering all the plot holes. So many plot holes. I mean, Cassie turning evil was incompetent, but not only did that give fixed in under two years, Adam Beechen excelled in other respects during Robin, and wasn’t prone to unbearable slog.
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                                      This is the crap you’re making me miss, DC.
Harper Row was either the standard or the launching pad for Tynion’s versions of these characters, and much to their detriment. This vision OMAC-Tim gives Cass and Steph just proves what I've been saying, that these characters of Orphan and...Not-Quite-Spoiler...aren't "just the same" characters as before Flashpoint, despite some similarities. They haven't earned what they did beforehand, Tynion just tried rebuilding them from the ground-up, then a few issues later just wrote "it's this way now" to closer resemble their pre52 versions, with no build-up or effort put into it. Heck, after hearing 'Tec readers talk about how Steph has been acting insane, these last pages suggest that, perhaps, she was playing Achilles or whatever his name is, which...I could kind of see Batgirl-era Steph doing...not a bumbling idiot who let Gotham burn over her stinkin' parental disputes and took orders from an ego-maniacal brat.
Cassie and Steph can hug all they want when things get emotional, it doesn’t change that the versions under Tynion had one called the other subhuman, and then when they next saw each other, spontaneous group-hug-invite. That is nowhere NEAR the same as the two of them disliking each other, and their rivalry developing into a friendship.
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“Remember when I said you weren’t a person only because you didn’t speak?                                     AHAHAHAHA! Good times, GOOD times...”
And really, I think fans of these characters are just so glad to have ANY version of them, they're more forgiving of Tynion's writing, whether it's error-heavy or just serviceable. They’ll excuse the problems to support the characters. Sure, Jimbo tosses in some emotional moments, hugging, crying, but given his previous work and history with them, I question if it had any real structure to it. He didn’t hesitate to have Tim bone Steph, even though that’s not something pre52 Tim would do, so why should I believe he put any effort into the Clayface/Cassie friendship, or...any character/Cassie friendship? But even if he did...how does it justify what he changed or how he changed it? I’d say it doesn’t; his mistakes aren’t better just because he and/or DC refuse to acknowledge them (hence the absence of Harper). NOTHING justifies these problems.
So, moving forward from Steph and Cass learning they had alternate, better-written lives...we don’t know how that’ll go. ‘Tec 981 could see them decide they (for some unholy reason) prefer to have started out as side-characters in their own origins if it props Harper up further, never having actually ever been the same as before (but “different” and “change”, so that makes it better somehow). Or, in a rare show of intelligence, this will lead to them ACTUALLY getting their lives back, no reinvention, no dead Dads either influencing their sociopathic negligence or wanting them dead, no stupid changes mandated by a bunch of witless baboons in charge...none of it. Because none it was good, none of it improved or equaled what was done before, and none of it is justified by long slogs in between distracting heart-string-tugs. Tynion’s changes, including but certainly not limited to the spotlighting of Bluebird, brought nothing new or good to the table, regardless of circumstances, and I fail to see why they or their effects should continue.
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The characters CANNOT have both histories; they just don’t work together. Steph’s beginnings cannot be both humble AND tied to yet-another city-wide massacre. Cassie’s life cannot be about her AND someone that has no right, rhyme or reason to be associated with her. David Cain cannot be a trained assassin at odds with a daughter he genuinely cares for AND...whatever the Hell Tynion thought he was writing Orphan to be. None of this deserves passive dismissal, not after all the years of crap DC has flung our way. They’re mistakes don’t deserve the validation of continuance for these characters or their world.
We’ll see.
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