#Water margin

[grand-theft-carbohydrates]

the absurdity of the plot of the Chinese Classic is in inverse proportion to how boring the title is.

-magical monkey takes a monk to india to pick up his library books, fighting demons along the way : Journey to the West - 108 demons reincarnated as bandits find brotherhood and redemption through the power of Extraordinary Violence: The Water Margin

-fanfic author writes a historical RPF that becomes so popular it ruins a politician's reputation for the next 700 years: Romance of the Three Kingdoms

-at this point the fandom is cooler than the actual canon, i need at least two more degrees to explain what the plot is: Dream of the Red Chamber

[lionofchaeronea]

Lei Heng, the "Winged Tiger," Kuniyoshi, between 1845 and 1850

[darkfalcon-z]

by all account Jin Guanyao did some pretty deplorable things, but if you compare him to the heroes from classic Chinese literature, like of Song Jiang (from Water Margin) he comes off as pretty nice, reasonable guy - see Song Jiang's modus operandi is framing people for crimes (he has his guys commit those crimes, including child murder and mass slaughter), often getting the families of whoever he wants wants to join him killed (executed by authorities) or at least losing their homes. And yet everyone is like "yeah, Song Jiang, the Timely Rain, now that I have nowhere to go I'll join you, let me suck your dick" (as opposed to all the time people captured and almost killed him before they learned who he is and went "why didn't you say you are Song Jiang the Timely Rain, we've almost eaten you, let us suck your dick" - drugging people and using their meat as a filling for buns to sell to and drug more people is surprising common business model in Water Margin). So if Song Jiang gets to be a hero, why can't Jin Guangyao fans make him into one (without changing his character).

On the other hand how would Jin Guangyao measure up if Song Jiang was his opponent?

[journeytothewestresearch]

I wanted to ask, is it quite likely that Sun Wukong killed heavenly soldiers or is it more pure speculation? I sent this ask before, but my old account is having problems with the messages and asks I send. If not, then I hope my question doesn't come across as me being impatient.

To my knowledge, the novel doesn't mention Monkey killing any gods, only demons, spirits, animals, and humans. Any divine figures, be they deities-turned-spirits or holy mounts, are usually reintegrated into the celestial hierarchy and not killed. Also, I don't recall the novel describing Wukong fighting the regular rank-and-file soldiers. The 100,000 soldiers mainly man the heavenly nets creating the cordon around Flower-Fruit Mountain. Monkey only fights high-ranking officers. It's like that in a lot of Chinese fiction. A common trope in Romance of the Three Kingdoms (c. 14th-century) and the Water Margin (c. 1400) is that the appearance, scream, and/or fighting ability of a great warrior is enough to hold hundreds or even thousands of foot soldiers at bay while he battles an opposing officer.

But realistically speaking, the Great Sage would have mowed through the regular soldiers like a sith lord through younglings.

[artistmitchy]

THE WATER MARGIN

[killingdoll]

Some Yan Qing trivia I’ve managed to find:

• As a Chinese, Yan Qing’s name is presented as ‘Surname + first name’, so ‘Yan’ (燕), which means ‘swallow’ (a kind of bird) is his surname and ‘Qing’, meaning ‘blue’ or ‘green’ is his first name. Swallows are very fast and Yan Qing is known to be very agile.

• Yan Qing’s tattoos were his master’s idea. His master, Lu Junyi adopted Yan Qing when he was very young and taught him most of his martial arts skills. One day, Lu looked at Yan and thought the young man had such fair and beautiful skin, so he called a tattoo artist to do Yan’s tattoos.

• Yan has the character ‘義’ on his back. While this character means ‘righteous’, it’s also part of his master’s name: 盧俊義 in Traditional Chinese or 卢俊义 in Simplified Chinese.

• Yan shared a deep bond with his master prior to his leave. Not long after that, Lu Junyi got poisoned and died.

• Yan Qing was portrayed by Chinese actor Yan Kuan/Yan Yikuan in the TV show Water Margin (2010).

(Kinda bummed they didn’t keep his wavy hair and went with the traditional topknot)

• In the TV show, Yan had the characters ‘忠义’ (loyal and righteous) tattooed on his back by the famed courtesan Li Sisi.

[digitalagepulao]

Sweeney Todd?? In my Chinese classical novel??

[nemainofthewater]

Best character surnamed: Song

Come and vote for the best characters with the same surname!*

What does best mean? It's up to you! Whether you love them, are intrigued by their characters, love to hate them, or they're your '2 second blorbos whose personality you made up wholesale', these are all reasons for you to vote for your favs!

*note, the surnames are not exactly the same in all the cases, as often there will be a different character. I am, however, grouping them all together otherwise things got more complicated.

Propaganda is very welcome! If I’ve forgotten anyone, let me know in the notes.

This is part of a larger series of ‘best character with X surname’ polls’. The overview with ongoing polls, winners, and future polls can be found here

[quitealotofsodapop]

So... nor to bust the bubble, but the Black Bull Demkn may not be PIF's. There's a small section in the original boon where DBK actually cheats on his wife and leaves her for another woman. It's actually kind of pathetic how PIF spiraled after that since she'd presumably just lost her son, too. I know they definitely are still together in the aus and shoe, but there is one Canon instance that may have resulted in an illegitimate calf

I assume you mean the situation in Journey to the West were DBK and PIF briefly separated cus DBK decided to take Princess Jade Face as a lover for her inheritance? Thats regular Tang-era marriage problems (multiple wives were considered socially ok).

Yeah in the canon book verse its kinda bad timing on the Bull's part.

In the LMK verse however, these two are madly devoted to one another no matter what. I feel like if Jade Face ever appeared, her character would be altered to reflect that - either as a mututal bestie who got mislabled as DBK's lover overtime or as someone in a polycule situation with them.

The Black Whirlwind/Iron Ox is also one of the *human* characters in Water Margin. Those are just nicknames despite the odd concidence.

Black Boy (who've I've named "Huoshan") in "Later Journey to the West" is canonically PIF and DBK's second born son - having taken more after his mom in powers, but his dad in appearance.

[suikomizunosoko]

【読書感想】岩波水滸１７回

（数か月前のメモとメモを頼りに感想絵）

痺れて倒れてる仲間たちにど正論を吐いて去ってゆく楊志

しっかり楊志のせいにする人足執事たち

放浪するも路銀はないし腹は減るしでやさぐれる楊志さん、ついに無銭飲食を働く

無銭飲食奴が有名な殿司制士(?)だとわかったとてそこで許す曹生の察しのよさよ…

こんな立派な人がやさぐれでこんなところにいるなんて、何かのっぴきならない事情があるに違いない！的な？

曹生に二竜山に入るのはどうかと勧められて即「のっとっちまうか！」になる楊志の思考回路がほんとダイナミックすぎる

さすがゲッター乗り

楊志が魯智深の足に引っかかる��写は吉川英治のやつかな…？

全部説明してくれる魯智深さん助かる

この時点で孫二娘と張青名前だけ出てきてたんだな

毎回張青が見つけて蘇生させてるんだな…

曹生の案に乗る二人だけどこの時点で解釈がズレてたら面白いななどと思ったり

最初からとうりゅうを殺す前提で持ちかけたのかどうかとか…

あまりにもとうりゅうが瞬殺すぎて可哀想な気持ちになった

済州府で堂々と「ちゃんとやってるんですけど〜」って言えちゃうかとうすごいな…

入墨入れられても不貞腐れたりしない感じも意外と好感度高い

部下に「少しはかわいそうに思ってくれよ」って言ってるのもなんかかわいい

捜査官だしかとうがだんだんシブめの刑事に見えてきた

兄貴を焦らして弄ぶ弟かわいいな

[ladyzerodark]

Yessssssssssss I cannot wait to start reading.

[grand-theft-carbohydrates]

lu zhishen beats a man to death in the first chapter he’s introduced and he is uncontested the kindest, most morally upstanding person in this entire book.

[little-lamb-lyosha]

No hay protagonista más chetado y más protegido por el guión que Luo Bingge

Excepto Song Jiang

YA PERDÍ LA CUENTA DE CUANTAS VECES ESTÁ A PUNTO DE SUFRIR UNA MUERTE ESTÚPIDA SÓLO PARA QUE APAREZCA ALGUIEN MÁGICAMENTE DICIENDO "ay de casualidad no han visto a mi bestie mi bro mi hermano del alma song Jiang al que llaman "the timely rain" 🥺" Y TODOS LE EMPIEZAN A MAMAR EL WEBO DIOS MÍO

[hadescavedish]

There was a Chinese version of Black Sails vibe literature if anyone was curious about it (be warned, it had misogynistic elements, it is ancient folklore, it also has a very tragic ending, their leader sold out the rebellion in the end):

There was a monk character called Lu Zhishen often reminded me of Vane in BS interpretation.

[giraffemolerats]

Me: Man, Dragon Ball plays pretty fast and loose with its inspiration, but once you know the source material you notice some cool parallels!

Guy from an alternate dimension where Dragon Ball is based off of "Water Margin" instead of "Journey to the West": Hey man I'm gonna be grilling some burgers for us, can I use the cheese you've got in the fridge?

Me: Sure

[cyborg-squid]

I just finished listening to the Water Margin podcast...

... and something that really struck me about the ending, after all the campaigns are said and done, is how similar it feels to the ending of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in tone. Both are these large scale grand stories with tons of characters (WM more than RoT3K) and battles, but their endings are so... sobering and basically end with the 'enemies' winning.

RoT3K, Cao Cao wins, seizing control of the Han while maintaining that he is still a loyal servant of the Han court, while his descendants form the Wei dynasty (which the novel does point out ends similarly to how Cao Cao usurped the Han), while the novel's heroes and main characters die unceremoniously.

Water Margin, fully two thirds of the 108 heroes die on their final campaign (after having lost none in their prior two), and many of those that survive either A) leave of their own volition before shit hits the fan, sometimes following their Buddhist or Daoist tenets or just sensing which way the winds are blowing in court, or B) are killed by the scheming officials in court, who have been against them since the literal beginning of the novel and never receive any sort of comeuppance or even consequences.

And while at first glance, both those final events in the novels might suck, honor and loyalty going unrewarded in life, it also feels very... realistic, especially with RoT3K, which has a stronger historical basis than WM. Sometimes the heroes don't win, sometimes your strongest warrior doesn't go out in battle but is simply executed, sometimes your best thief and infiltrator dies appendicitis, and only if you're lucky and humble are you able to escape the schemes of the court with your skin intact. The 'good' guys, your Guan Yu's and Song Jiang's and Lu Junyi's and Liu Bei's, they are remembered fondly and are vindicated by history, rightfully revered in history and pop culture, but that only happens after their deaths.

And that's just so interesting and is a large part of what makes these novels so appealing to me! Especially all the different ways you can read Song Jiang and the morality of the 108 as a whole, guys who are portrayed as the unambiguous good guys in the novel, but who still do things like kill civilians and go on rampages and cover up their own unjustified murders and, in the case of the multiple black tavern operators Liangshan has on staff, kill and eat people. And you ask, are these really the good guys, and then you step back and look at how else these novels can be read, how Song Jiang's devotion to loyalty and honor and "delivering justice on heaven's behalf" and earning an amnesty for the heroes, how that can also be seen as what ultimately led to their downfall, his devotion to a dynasty that couldn't give two shits about them and is largely responsible for the events that led them to banditry...

They weren't kidding, those Four Great Masterpieces really do be great masterpieces