#The Murderbot Diaries Fandom amisia

[rjalker]

People are really acting like whitewashing in live action just happens in a vacuum and doesn't contribute to or stem from white supremacy at all.

What do you think is happening to all the people of color whose roles are instead being given to white people? you think more jobs just appear out of thin air? you think those jobs won't also be stolen by white people? You think whitewashing is just a silly little thing that only people on the internet care about?

doubly fucking so when the character cannonically has dark skin. Colorism is absolutely a factor. And it gets even worse when the character is explicitly nonbinary and aroace.

Real actors exist who could fill this role, but instead of letting them have the job, it's getting tossed to rich cisallohet white men once again.

And everyone's fine with this because they refuse to grasp the concept that every job designed for Queer people of color that gets snatched up by a cisallohet white man is one more Queer person of color who's out of a fucking job.

[murderbotwritingprompts]

Yes, yes, you love Murderbot. You think Murderbot is so funny and relatable. You'd die for Murderbot. We know.

But do you actually use Murderbot's it/its pronouns? Do you actually respect the fact that it's an everything-repulsed aroace and is solitaremit touch-averse, and the fact that it represents real people who are these things?

Or do you just "love" the "relatable" version of Murderbot that exists in your head, where you've cut out and replaced everything that makes it who it is as a character with things you can personally relate to, even though the whole theme of the series is that you need to respect people even when you can't relate to them?

Do you think "representation matters" only when you're the one being represented?

Do you think it magically becomes okay to erase canon Queer identities and disabilities as long as you're not the one being represented?

Do you actually love the character of Murderbot, who is explicitly everything-repulsed aroace, nonbinary and uses it/its pronouns exclusively, and is soltaremit touch-averse?

Or do you just love the OC you've slapped its name onto that exists in your head?

[rjalker]

I fucking hate it when people go "oh Progressive™ art gets so much more scrutiny than things Blatantly Made By Conservatives™~! How come my favorite Queer movie gets criticized for being racist so much? How come my favorite author gets criticized for being transmisic so much? It's such a double standard!"

Are you sure it's a double standard? Are you sure it's not just that you think any criticism is too much criticism? Do you understand the purpose behind pointing out criticism and telling people they've done something hurtful? Do you think it would be even remotely constructive to explain to conservatives that they're being racist? Do you understand why people are more willing to educate self-styled Progressives™ about the ways they're being bigoted?

Are "progressive" stories and creators actually "held to a higher standard" or do you just think they should be immune to criticism because the author appeals to people like you in particular?

Someone taking the time to explain in detail why XYZ "progressive" author is racist but not bothering to explain why ABC bigoted authors is racist is not "holding progressive creators to higher standards".

It's assuming that people who call themselves progressive actually care about learning from their mistakes and genuinely want to do good in the world, including unlearning bigotry they didn't notice.

If you're supposed to a be a good person, the thing you do when someone points out bigotry is apologize and do better in the future. Not bemoan the fact that no one sits down and writes a five thousand word educational essay telling the MAGA Don't Tread On Me Republicans where they've gone wrong and how it could be fixed.

I think you people are just insecure bigots who don't like seeing your favorite creators called out for bigotry, so now you have to pretend that they're being uniquely oppressed because other oppressed people are taking the time to educate people about the ways they're being bigoted and hurting people.

And again. You people need to aknowledge the fact that criticizing bigotry from people who say they want to be good people is a hell of a lot more likely to be productive than criticizing the bigotry of people who've openly and happily dedicated their entire personality to being racist and bigoted "to own the libs".

It's not a double standard. It's literally just people trusting that people who call themselves progressive actually want to be progressive.

[rjalker]

Allos in this year, 2023, still don't see aspec orientations as genuine orientations. they see it as an empty space where the orientation is inexplicably missing, so they see a character who is cannonically aroace and viscerally repulsed by all forms of relationships and touch, and think that, because this is a "lack of orientation" rather than an orientation directed at, explicitly, no one, they think it's perfectly fine and not bigoted at all for them to shove their orientations onto the explicitly Queer character, erasing the aroace representation in favor of turning it into another Cis Gay Man who uses he/him...even though the character is literally nonbinary, and uses it/its pronouns.

Because they also see being nonbinary as a "fill in the missing parts" puzzle. They think the character describing its gender as "not applicable" and "indeterminate" means that, really, it's a guy! it's a man! Because it's funny and relatable and only Men™ are relatable! Only Male Characters™ can be funny and well-written!

In 2023!

Fully grown adults are fucking pulling this shit in 2023 and think they're the perfect Queer Allies™

Because they don't see aroace or nonbinary people as actually existing, and actually having meaningful identities. They think we're walking fucking ad-libs and they can fill in the "blanks" with whatever's most palatable to their tastes.

And that means misgendering the canonnically nonbinary character who uses it/its pronouns, erasing literally every single aspect of its identity that gets in the way of shipping it (removing its aceness, its aroness, or just straight up pretending it's not aroace to begin with, and erasing its solitaremit touch averseion), and then pretending their actions are completely harmless when they're called out for it.

Because according to them, it's not bigotry if the canon Queer identities they're erasing are the ones they think don't exist in the first place. Being aroace isn't an orientation for them, it just means you're broken and need to be fixed. Being nonbinary and using it/its with them isn't a real gender identity and presentation, it means they're something wrong with you and you need to be fixed. Being touch averse isn't a real disability, it just means there's something wrong with you, and you need to be fixed.

They don't fucking see Murderbot as representation for real Queer disabled trans people. They see it as something broken that needs to be fixed, by taking away everything that makes it who it is, so that they can fill in all the now gaping wounds with their own much less stigmatized identities instead.

Even though the literal entire theme of The Murderbot Diaries is that you should treat people with respect even if you don't understand their experiences.

[rjalker]

anyways. here's a fucking thread pointing out the blatant racism. At least there's one other person besides me who has a problem with this shit.

actually since Reddit fucking sucks for archival purposes I'll just copy and paste the entire thing here:

April 3rd 2024 for posterity.

____

Title:

So you understand that AI voice acting steals jobs from real voice actors, now can you understand that giving roles designed for Queer people of color to cishet white men is also stealing jobs from real Queer people of color?

Post:

Whitewashing does not exist in a vacuum.

Cis people giving roles designed for trans characters does not exist in a vacuum.

For every cisallohet white man who gets a role that was designed for a nonbinary person of color, there is now one more nonbinary person of color who's out of a job.

Rich successful white men do not need any more roles in Hollywood, especially not roles that should be going to Queer people of color. In the official art, Murderbot has dark skin. It has the darkest skin out of everyone in the Preservation Aux team.

[ID: A black and white digital drawing, showing a scene from The Murderbot Diaries book series. Murderbot, an androgynoid with very dark skin, wearing a white shirt and light pants, is leaping sideways over the chairs the other characters are sitting on, using one arm on the armrest to swing itself over, with its face hidden, and only the back of its head visible. The other characters are staring up at it in shock, confusion, and amazement: Ratthi, who has dark skin that is slightly lighter than Murderbot’s, is below it, throwing one hand out in shock, sending his mug of a dark liquid flying. He is wearing a light, long sleeved shirt and skinny jeans. Pin-Lee, who has light brown skin, is standing at a short table in the background, wearing a long sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled up, and a short skirt. Bharadwaj, who has brown skin, leaning forward over the table to stare, with only her long sleeved shirt visible above the table. Overse, who is white, is sitting in a chair next to Ratthi on the left side of the screen, looking up, with Arada’s light brown, bare legs and feet in her lap, with a beaded ankle bracelet. Overse is wearing a long sleeved shirt and leggings, and her own shoes are kicked off on the floor in front of her. End ID.]

Colorism exists in the real world. People with darker skin face more systemic hatred and disenfranchisement than people with lighter skin. Racism is already a systemic inescapable problem. Colorism only makes it worse.

Murderbot in the official art is not just a person of color, it has dark skin, and is the darkest of all the "main characters" we see.

Real dark-skinned, Queer actors deserve the opportunity to shine in roles designed for them. It is blatantly racist for these roles to instead by stolen by white people of any kind, but especially heinous for the roles to go to cisallohet white men who are already incredibly successful.

Because Alexander Skarsgård and Apple TV have made the blatantly racist and exorsexist decision to cast him in the role for Murderbot, this means that real nonbinary people of color have just lost what could have been a breakout job opportunity.

If you understand that using AI for voice acting is depriving real people of jobs, then you also need to grasp that allowing white people to steal roles meant for people of color without any backlash or criticism is directly contributing to and upholding white supremacy.

Every role meant for a person of color that goes to a white person instead is another person of color who's now out of a job.

Whitewashing characters for live action adaptations does not exist in a vacuum. It's not harmless. It's not "chronically online" to have a problem with it. It's a direct result of white supremacy, and literally allows white supremacy to continue being upheld.

AI steals jobs. So does whitewashing. If you care about one, then you need to also care about the other. White supremacy and whitewashing go hand in hand. Apple TV deciding to whitewash Murderbot is not harmless or simply "cringey". It's literally real life racism, colorism, and white supremacy, even before we get into the blatant exorsexism and transmisia of stealing roles from out trans nonbinary people.

____

and yes. If people comment I will also edit all of those comments into this post because Reddit fucking sucks and you can't save it to the Wayback Machine. So this post will keep getting edited and probably get even longer.

Edit: actually no I'm just blocking all these people.

[rjalker]

A lot of people in fandom clearly believe that the only kind of media analysis you should ever be doing is "interpret it solely in an endlessly praising, strictly homosexual sense, with emphasis on the sex part"

No other forms of analysis are welcome. You're not allowed to criticize the media for any of its flaws, or even point out the fact that it's flawed. You are not allowed to talk about the things in the work that are explicitly Queer and not in a strictly homosexual way, especially if the explicit Queer rep is aspec in any way, and especially not explicitly aroace. Because in fandom, everything has to come back to sex one way or another, no matter how many Queer and Disabled identities / traits the fandom has to erase to get there.

You can have an explicitly nonbinary character who's aroace and disgusted by the idea of being in *any* kind of relationship, including queerplatonic, who is touch averse and the narrative does nothing but respect this and show this character getting more comfortable with asserting its boundaries around being touched, and the fandom will still insist on misgendering it and shipping it with a guy they're whitewashing and pretending that it actually enjoys being touched, it's just too socially anxious / self-loathing to admit it.

Even when the author is going out of her way to show that the character hates being touched and as soon as it starts to realize that its boundaries will be respected instead of trampled over, it starts stating and enforcing its boundaries more and more firmly and easily. Until it becomes second nature for it to tell people not to touch it, instead of saying nothing because it's learned helplessness from never being able to say no before.

Even when the entire theme of the series is "respect people even if they're different from you", fandom cannot let any kind of Queer representation exist unless it's the white gay men having sex kind. Even if it means they have to misgender and whitewash the protagonist and whoever it's being shipped with, and erase literally everything that makes it who it is as a character, to do so.

There are literally endless white, gregariable, not explicitly sex repulsed characters people could be writing porn about instead, but fandom always has to whitewash and erase Queer identities they don't like so they can write porn without having to give a single shit about other people or think about the bigotry they're perpetuating by taking nonbinary, touch averse, aroace characters and turning them into misgendering porn fuel.

These people will literally even resort to shipping slaves with their legal fucking owners, despite the author repeating endlessly over and over again not to fucking do this. Literally. The author tells you not to ship slaves with their owners. But fandom will still do it because they are that fucking poisoned by amatanormativity and cannot fathom the idea of just treating aroace people like whole people who aren't missing anything.

They'll literally ship slaves with their owners and then act surprised when people think they're absolutely vile people.

[rjalker]

Reposting for 2024. Originally made in 2023. But bigots keep being bigots.

Allos in this year, 2024, still don’t see aspec orientations as genuine orientations. They see it as an empty space where the orientation is inexplicably missing, so they see a character who is cannonically aroace and viscerally repulsed by all forms of relationships and touch, and think that, because this is a “lack of orientation” rather than an orientation directed at, explicitly, no one, they think it’s perfectly fine and not bigoted at all for them to shove their orientations onto the explicitly Queer character, erasing the aroace representation in favor of turning it into another Cis Gay Man who uses he/him…even though the character is literally nonbinary, and uses it/its pronouns.

Because they also see being nonbinary as a “fill in the missing parts” puzzle. They think the character describing its gender as “not applicable” and “indeterminate” means that, really, it’s a guy! it’s a man! Because it’s funny and relatable and only Men™ are relatable! Only Male Characters™ can be  funny and well-written!

In 2024!

Fully grown adults are fucking pulling this shit in 2024 and think they’re the perfect Queer Allies™, and like this isn't the world's most basic misogyny to top off the exorsexism and transmisia. You people are so proud to admit that you think women can't be funny. And think nothing of it. Do you have any idea how bad you look doing this shit, even if you ignore the fact that you're shitting on nonbinary people?

You people don’t see aroace or nonbinary people as actually existing, and actually having meaningful identities. You think we’re walking fucking ad-libs and you can fill in the “blanks” with whatever’s most palatable to your tastes. 

And that means misgendering the canonnically nonbinary character who uses it/its pronouns, erasing literally every single aspect of its identity that gets in the way of shipping it (removing its aceness, its aroness, or just straight up pretending it’s not aroace to begin with, and erasing its solitaremit touch averseion and disgust towards sex and intimacy of any kind), and then pretending their actions are completely harmless when they’re called out for it.

Because according to them, it’s not bigotry if the canon Queer identities they’re erasing are the ones they think don’t exist in the first place. Being aroace isn’t an orientation for them, it just means you’re broken and need to be fixed. Being nonbinary and using it/its with them isn’t a real gender identity and presentation, it means they’re something wrong with you and you need to be fixed. Being touch averse isn’t a real disability, it just means there’s something wrong with you, and you need to be fixed.

They don’t fucking see Murderbot as representation for real Queer disabled trans people. They see it as something broken that needs to be fixed, by taking away everything that makes it who it is, so that they can fill in all the now gaping wounds with their own much less stigmatized identities instead.

Even though the literal entire theme of The Murderbot Diaries is that you should treat people with respect even if you don’t understand their experiences.

[rjalker]

Very funny to see bigots (who pretend they're not being bigoted, because they ~totally~ agree with me, for sure!) call me terminally online because I criticize the rampant bigotry in The Murderbot Diaries fandom for maybe two days every two months when I remember it exists and check the tag only to see dozens of new bigoted posts that no one else is criticizing because the rest of the fandom is filled with either bigots or people who refuse to call it out. Lofl.

"You're so terminally online!"

Bitch I have barely been online for the past two days. Almost like your shitty ableist insult is completely meaningless and literally just insulting on the basis of ableism that you're gonna pretend isn't inherent in it.

[rjalker]

extremely hilarious to me that people really think Murderbot's not going to stay aromantic. it's so clear that none of you people have ever read any other books by Martha Wells. Literally all of her protagonists are aromantic. you poor fucking losers really think Murderbot's gonna magically become allo. Lofl.

[rjalker]

[ID: White impact font against a black background that reads in all caps, "If minorities criticizing fandom bigotry ruins your fun more than the bigotry itself, you're a bigot, and you should feel bad!". End ID.]

[rjalker]

Fandoms will see a cannonically, explicitly Queer character who represents multiple of the most stigmatized groups within the Queer community and will go "okay, but what if I erase all of these traits I dislike to make ~them~ more palatable for me?"

And then act shocked when the minorities who are being purposefully erased are angry about this.

Fandom will see a characters who is canonically nonbinary, uses it/its pronouns, is aroace and viscerally disgusted by the thought of being in any kind of relationship, and hates being touched, and go

"Oooh! But ~they~ would be better if ~they~ didn't use those disgusting pronouns! Nonbinary people all use they/them! If you use it/its pronouns you're disgusting. This character uses they/them pronouns now because they're real pronouns!!!! "Ooh and don't you think ~they'd~ be so much better if ~they~ were horny for this brown man I am whitewashing for the sake of shipping with this aroace character, who I am also whitewashing for the sake of shipping.

"Oooooooooh but noo you know what'd be even better? O: if this character was a binary trans woman!!! Or a binary trans man!!!!! Because nonbinary people are gross and not real anyways :)

"Oh this blatantly autistic character explicitly says it hates being touched and only touches people in life or death situations when the literal only other option is letting them die?

"Well silly billy, don't you know that if you don't want to be touched there's something deeply, deeply wrong with you that you need to fix? I'm not being ableist by saying this, though! Really, when you think about it, you're the one who's ableist because you don't want this character's touch aversion to be healed by the power of friendship/sex/romance!!!!"

Fandom will literally see a character whose traits are demonized by all of society and go "okay but hear me out what if I demonize these Queer and disabled traits and remove everything that makes this character who it is so that it's less repulsive to me as someone whose identities are more socially accepted?"

And then insist that they're totally progressive and Queer friendly and welcoming to minorities and such a fun, safe, great fandom to hang out in.

[rjalker]

the Murderbot Fandom in September 2024, as opposed to when I last checked:

obviously none of this applies to the probably 100+ bigots in the fandom I blocked years ago whose posts I cannot see.

Most people seem to be using the correct pronouns, which is a first.

But people are still happily going along with male-default when they do apply gender to Murderbot or other characters. Calling it "a dude" and "a guy" instead of anything gender neutral.

People are still whitewashing all of the characters

People are still shipping Murderbot with its literal owner

People are still shipping Murderbot at all

People still think Murderbot is human because Martha Wells chose to create brand new words for no good reason and has done nothing but confuse people about what she is trying to say

People are still doing slavery apologism

People are still erasing the fact that Murderbot is touch averse

Stans are mad that people are criticizing bigotry in the series and creating strawmans of the criticism to mock instead of actually providing any evidence for their own argument

[rjalker]

"it's possible to ship aroace characters who explicitly do not want any kind of relationship of any kind, including queerplatonic, who hate sex and hate romance and hate being touched! It's possible to ship these characters and still be respectful--"

No, it quite fucking literally is not!

If you ship this character sexually, you're erasing its asexuality!

If you ship it romantically, you're erasing its aromanticism!

If you ship it queerplatonically, you're erasing its nonplatonicity!

If you ship it sensually, you're erasing its touch aversion!

There is literally no fucking way to ship a character like Murderbot who explicitly does not want to be in any kind of relationship and hates being touched without being a bigot!

Murderbot represents real living people that you are erasing and speaking over!

You would all be flipping your shit if Murderbot were any other Queer identity besides nonbinary and aroace and people were erasing that, but because it's aroace and nonbinary and uses the Icky™ Gross™ pronouns (that you think only fictional characters use) you think that means erasing this single shred of respectful representation is magically okay now.

Literally all you have to do to not be a bigot is not be horny and weird about one (1) fictional character that canonically explicitly would hate the shit you're all writing and drawing about it.

But no, you'd all rather be bigots and erase everything that makes Murderbot who it is because it's not palatable and Relatable™ enough for you. You people are so fucking weak. You literally cannot stand to see one (1) fictional character that's different from you without immediately leaping to erase every thing about it that lets it represent real marginalized people.

[rjalker]

Fandom bigotry bingo card. Feel free to download and fill out.

[ID: A black and white bingo card labeled, "Fandom Bigotry Bingo, July 2023" The boxes read, starting from the top and going across from left to right:

Fiction can't hurt anyone! Just let people enjoy things! The fictional characters aren't real! Why don't you care about ~real~ bigotry? You just hate Queer people! Why do you hate women?! It's just people being annoying on the internet! Fandom is supposed to be fun! If it's fandom art, it's inherently progressive! Transformative works are never bigoted!!! Ever!!! You're terminally online if you think this is a problem. Clearly you don't have any real problems. [Free space] You're so triggered. Shipping is never harmful! Lol, calm down. It's not a big deal. Well I've never seen that happen. You're taking things too seriously. I'm an ally, but I think you're making problems out of nothing. I'm not a bigot! My friend is [minority]! Criticizing my bigotry is misogynistic! Criticizing my bigotry is ageist! Criticizing my bigotry is homomisic! Criticizing my bigotry is transmisic! Criticizing my bigotry is ableist!

End ID.]

[rjalker]

[ID: Six versions of the meme from Furutrama of a squid person shouting in a movie theater, now with the original character replaced with a drawing of Murderbot in its grey armour, with the face plate dark so you can't see its face as it shouts:

"If you erase canon Queer and disabled traits you don't like because it's not about you, you're a bad person, and you should feel bad!" "If you erase or cure Murderbot's touch aversion, you're ableist, and you should feel bad!" "If you erase Murderbot's nonbinary identity and it/its pronouns, you're exorsexist, and you should feel bad!" "If you ship Murderbot with anyone in any way, you're aroacemisic, and you should feel bad!" "If you whitewash characters of color in any way, you're racist, and you should feel bad!" "If you can't have fun in fandom without being a bigot, you don't get to have fun!" End ID.]

[rjalker]

Murderbot fandom bigotry bingo round 1!

Don't want to be part of the game? Then simply don't be a bigot :) it's cheap, it's easy, it's free!

deslizada said, July 28th, 2023:

just to be clear I do not ship murderbot/gurathin and I don't ship murderbot/art sexually (????? how?????) or even really romantically, I am just baffled by how seriously a few people are taking this. like I get being annoyed/hurt by erasure but murderbot is not a real person and its autonomy is not being violated by people writing shippy fanfic. seeing a few people being annoying on the internet should not make you spin off the shits

So close!

[ID: A black and white bingo card labeled, "Fandom Bigotry Bingo, July 2023"

The boxes read, starting from the top and going across from left to right:

Fiction can't hurt anyone! Just let people enjoy things! The fictional characters aren't real! Why don't you care about ~real~ bigotry? You just hate Queer people! Why do you hate women?! It's just people being annoying on the internet! Fandom is supposed to be fun! If it's fandom art, it's inherently progressive! Transformative works are never bigoted!!! Ever!!! You're terminally online if you think this is a problem. Clearly you don't have any real problems. [Free space] You're so triggered. Shipping is never harmful! Lol, calm down. It's not a big deal. Well I've never seen that happen. You're taking things too seriously. I'm an ally, but I think you're making problems out of nothing. I'm not a bigot! My friend is [minority]! Criticizing my bigotry is misogynistic! Criticizing my bigotry is ageist! Criticizing my bigotry is homomisic! Criticizing my bigotry is transmisic! Criticizing my bigotry is ableist!

The following boxes are marked with a partially transparent blue circle:

Fiction can't hurt anyone! The fictional characters aren't real! It's just people being annoying on the internet! You're terminally online if you think this is a problem. Lol, calm down. It's not a big deal. Shipping is never harmful! You're taking things too seriously. I'm an ally, but I think you're making problems out of nothing.

End ID.]