#Sylva Santagar

[ivashkovadrian]

dornish characters posters › spotted sylva santagar

For my freckles, Your Grace, though they all pretend it is because I am the heir to Spottswood.

[elaena]

Cousins

[goodqueenaly]

Hello, I've got a question about an old old post of yours (https://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/123345670592/hello-we-know-that-ariannes-plan-to-crown-mb) about the queenmaker plot.

Well mostly about the punishment of Sylva Santagar. I think I got really confused because while reading for the first time somewhere along the way I assumed that Sylva marrying lord Estermont was equal to her being disinherited? Like Arianne would be passed over if she married Viserys or the Ynys Yronwood situation. So i got really confused about her punishment being considered light. Is that a thing in Dorne that if an heiress goes to live with her husband, instead of him coming to her, she sort of forfeits her rights or did i extrapolate complete nonsense from these examples? And if she's still an heiress to Spottswood and her father died before lord Estermont would she be able to leave her husband and go back home and rule?

I'm sorry if you've answered something like this before and I hope the link works

It’s important to remember that Arianne’s fear of being disinherited by her father was not only based on the relatively dynastically (not to mention personally) unimpressive marriages Doran was (ostensibly) trying to arrange for her. As Arianne herself admits to Arys Oakheart, at fourteen Arianne had discovered Doran’s infamous letter to Quentyn, promising that “one day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne”. Nor did Arianne believe she lacked proof of Doran’s unwillingness to recognize her as his true heir: her main responsibility in Sunspear, as she complains, was “feasts and frolics, and the entertainment of distinguished guests”, and she was only “summoned twice a year” to the Water Gardens (compared to the oft-visiting Oberyn). So in Arianne’s mind, all the evidence in front of her suggested clearly that Doran did not want her to succeed him as Princess of Dorne: he had explicitly promised the inheritance to her brother, he gave her no actual power to act in his name (the way any other lord or prince might with his heir), and the only husbands he appeared to consider for her were old, often relatively politically weak non-Dornish men - in other words, husbands who would not have the power, the influence, or the local interest to fight for her rights in Dorne following Doran’s death.

Moreover, while GRRM noted that “[t]he vast majority” of Dornish noble families follow the absolute primogeniture established by Nymeria, the author specifically noted that there “[m]ay be a few stony Dornishmen in the mountains who go their own way, those least touched by the Rhoynar”. The Yronwoods, I think, would fit perfectly within that exception: perhaps the foremost family among those “stony” Dornish who according to Yandel “have the most in common with those north of the mountains and are the least touched by Rhoynish custom”, and the family which defiantly styles itself as “the Bloodroyal”, clinging (in the fashion of so many-real world monarchies) to an obsolete, specifically pre-Rhoynish royal title. Therefore, I am not remotely surprised if Ynys Yronwood was never (so long as brother Cletus was alive, anyway) considered the heiress to Yronwood (though it’s unclear whom Anders Yronwood believes is his heir now, or would if he (likely) has not yet learned that his son is dead).

By contrast, there is no evidence that merely by marrying a lord, even a non-Dornish lord, Sylva Santagar has automatically forfeited her inheritance rights. Indeed, even in non-Dornish Westeros, where inheritance is far more universally (and often more strictly) male-preference, women do not as an absolute rule lose the ability to inherit; after all, dynastic marriages with heiresses would be rather pointless if that were the case. Arianne herself acknowledges this standard, informing Ser Arys that “Casterly Rock will pass to the boy [i.e. Tommen] as well, through his lady mother”. Given that we see Dornish ladies who have legitimate children (and therefore were or are presumably married), I doubt Dornish law, generally more favorable to female inheritance anyway compared to the rest of Westeros, views marriage of heiresses as a bar to those heiresses becoming ladies in their own right. Nor do we have any evidence that Ser Symon changed his will to designate another successor, or specifically pass over Sylva (as we see with, say, the late Lord Wyman Webber in “The Sworn Sword”).

Now certainly, what is true in law does not always translate to practical application, and that could be the case here as well. By being married to a “foreign” lord, and becoming by that marriage the lady of an island somewhat remote from mainland Dorne, Sylva has been physically, politically, and culturally separated from her Dornish homeland. Would the rest of the Santagars, and whatever local aristocratic powers are in the area of Spottswood, see Sylva at the time of her father’s death as still the obvious heir to Spottswood, or would she appear as a “foreigner”, an Estermont, compared to say another potential Santagar heir? There’s no evidence suggesting that would necessarily happen, of course, but I’ve speculated on a similar potential with the marriage of Jocelyn Stark, and I think this consideration could come into play as various Stark restoration factions debate Sansa’s claim. Likewise, the sheer physical distance between Estermont and mainland Dorne generally, not to mention wherever Spottswood is specifically, could mean that, if there were a scenario where an unscrupulous Santagar relation decided to seize Spottswood himself on Ser Symon’s death, he could install himself as the Knight of Spottswood potentially even before Sylva was aware her father had died, and consequently potentially putting her on the back foot in asserting her claim (compare, say, Rhaenyra at the outset of the Dance, or the real-world Empress Matilda).

As far as what Sylva would do in the event of Lord Estermont’s death (probably sooner rather than later) … I think that would depend heavily on Sylvia’s personal and political connections with both Estermont and Spottswood at that moment. Assuming the Widow’s Law is still extant and more or less unchanged in modern Westeros (though assuming anything about the Widow’s Law is uncertain at best), Sylva would at least have the right to live at Estermont for the remainder of her days, with her marital household and income intact. However, whether or not she would want to is far from certain. Would Sylva have had a child or children with Lord Eldon, and would she (and/or the new powers that be at Estermont) have wanted this child or these children to be raised as Estermonts of Estermont or as Santagars of Spottswood? Would she herself have felt at home on Estermont, or would she have wanted to return to her birthplace? Would she have wanted to inherit and rule at Spottswood at that time, or would she have been content to spend the rest of her life at Estermont? All of this is a matter for speculation (though maybe we’ll hear a bit more, if only indirectly, about Sylva’s current mood at Estermont, in TWOW, given that our Aegon’s forces appear to have landed and made some headway on the island).

[dornedaily]

Sylva cleared her throat, till Arianne said, “Might I present Lady Sylva Santagar, my queen? My dearest Spotted Sylva.”

"Lady Sylva received no punishment from me, but she was of an age to marry. Her father has shipped her to Greenstone to wed Lord Estermont."

[coldraindropsss]

Sylva Santagar, Spotted Sylva, Arianne Martell

[sayruq]

What do you think of Erin Kellyman as “spotted” Sylva Santagar? After re-reading Arianne’s chapters and watching the new Willow, I can’t stop seeing her as Sylva. Lol

she's perfect.

[rosaluxembae]

I recently read Arianne III, where she's imprisoned atop the Spear Tower and it's interesting that her thoughts about who told are similar but also quite different to mine directly after I read Arianne II.

Gerold Dayne is a prime suspect, he wanted to kill Myrcella as the surest way to start a war. He could have betrayed them to give himself an excuse and opportunity to murder her in the confusion. On the other hand, the biggest piece of evidence against it being him imo is Doran's reaction. I feel like he would have had a bigger reaction to being played by Dayne, I also think he's too smart and too cautious to be tricked in that situation. He also considers Darkstar to be too dangerous to allow to be involved in a plot so if he knew he was involved, he might not have let them make off with Myrcella.

Then there's Arys Oakheart, maybe his shame tore him apart too much. He regretted agreeing to use Myrcella to start a war so he made sure it didn't happen, while giving him an opportunity to redeem himself with an honourable death.

Although someone else I want to mention is Spotted Sylva, most because Doran doesn't punish her. Sure she gets shipped off to marry Estermont but he claims that was her father without his involvement.

There's also boring options like Myrcella's decoy handmaid but they're boring and the author wouldn't write that.

[goodqueenaly]

Which is not to say there couldn’t be interesting permutations here (even though I doubt there likely would be). We still have really no idea how the Widow’s Law applies against the right of a lord to name his own heir, but there is at least the theoretically possibility that if Lord Eldon and Sylva had a child (especially a son) together, Lord Estermont could name this child the heir to Estermont, notwithstanding that Eldon has (or appears to have) son(s) and grandson(s) from prior marriage(s). (Nevermind the fact that Estermont’s would-be overlord Tommen Baratheon is hardly in a politically stable position himself.) Too, while Sylva would have no right to hold Estermont in her own right or pass it down to any other children she might have outside that marriage, she would as @turtle-paced notes have some widow’s use-rights (to say nothing of what she might attempt to do beyond these, as Barbrey Dustin successfully did in Barrowton and Daemon Targaryen unsuccessfully tried to do at Runestone).

On the Sylva Santagar ask. Since lord Estermont is very old, and likely to die without issue with her, what would happen upon his death? Would is son Aemon inherit directly, or would Sylva remain the lady of Estermont until she (probably) remarries?

The heir inherits, but a widow has use-rights. Of course, as mentioned before, Sylva's an heiress herself and doesn't need the safety net that use-rights provide, but they're there.

[sigilsongs-a]

[sigilsins]

tags pt1.

[jozor-johai]

The Dornish in TWOW

Just looking at a bunch of things we know, thinking about potential future developments.

Maybe this is in part to defend why we need to care about the Dornish plotlines—I don't think GRRM introduced these for no reason, and as I'm trying to point out, those four chapters in FeastDance, plus our two from TWOW, have placed Dornish in a lot of different plotlines. If these start to converge at all, the Sand Snakes are suddenly going to be a very valuable and knowledgeable power bloc.

In fact, let me say: looking at all these moving parts, I don't think there's any way that Doran has a "master plan" ... yet. However, they've got agents in so many places that if they all report back to Doran—and Doran plans in response, say midway through TWOW maybe—then we might see a whole bunch of storylines shift at once.

In the Aegon/Golden Company situation:

Arianne Martell, along with Daemon Sand and Elia Sand have joined up with the Golden Company at Griffin's Roost. Arianne has left for Storm's End, where Connington is waiting, apparently having taken the castle.

Interestingly, we also know that "Spotted" Sylva Estermont (Santagar), another member of the Arianne-Myrcella plot, has been hurriedly shipped off to Greenstone to marry the elderly Lord Eldon Estermont. However, Greenstone has been taken by Marq Mandrake of the Golden Company, and Jon Connington has arranged for Mandrake to bring any noble captives from Greenstone to Cape Wrath—and, now that Spotted Sylva is an Estermont, that means her. I suspect that means we see Sylva and Arianne reunited quite soon.

Meanwhile, in King's Landing (which the Golden Company are undoubtedly heading towards)

Nymeria Sand has been sent to King's Landing to officially take the vacant Dornish seat on the Small Council.

Tyene Sand has been sent to act as a septa and gain the trust of the High Sparrow, meaning the Dornish are also trying to have an agent within that power bloc as well. Since we last see Cersei accompanied at all times by a septa, we might see Tyene and Cersei interact in TWOW.

If Arianne is still with the Golden Company by the time Aegon reaches King's Landing, it's possible that we might see Nymeria and Tyene reunited with their cousin within the city walls.

Meanwhile, in Oldtown

"Alleras" aka Sarella Sand is in Oldtown, working with Sam and formerly Archmaester Marwyn "the Mage." They will probably be witness to whatever Euron pulls down there so would also be a useful source of information.

Meanwhile, across the Narrow Sea—

In the Dany plot arc:

Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater are in Meereen, down one frog. To get the Tattered Prince's help with the dragons, Quentyn Martell promised to give Pentos to the Tattered Prince once it was taken (and in the process, promising it would be taken). Barristan utilizes these two Dornish to transfer the terms of that deal to the Barristan-"Dany"-Shavepate coalition, which they agree to in exchange for a ship to Dorne to return Quentyn's bones.

This is quite interesting, because it places these Dornishmen as the hinge to a number of moving parts. For one, it means Barristan is relying on them to confirm the terms of the Pentos agreement with Team Dany. In addition, it means that they will become a potential source of information for Doran Martell as to the situation in Meereen (chaos as of now) and Quentyn's fate. I suspect that Doran will not be pleased with Quentyn's fate in Meereen.

I also suspect that a report of the current situation in Meereen will look like this: Dany is missing, the dragons are out of control, and the remaining forces on Dany's side are in chaos fighting a losing siege. Depending on when Arch and Drink leave Meereen to return Quentyn's bones, Doran might get a pretty unflattering picture of Dany's situation—which he may then use to calculate his next moves.

However, as Arch and Drink return home, they may cross paths with a few other Dornishmen:

Andrey Dalt, who we last saw with Arianne in The Queenmaker**,** is currently en route to Norvos to stay with Lady Mellario, estranged wife of Doran Martell and mother to Arianne, Quentyn, and Trystane, is in Norvos. This is also where Areo Hotah is from, and I sometimes wonder if we've heard so much about it because we'll see it at some point. If we don't see Andrey on his way to Norvos, we may see Andrey in Norvos if Dany stops there on her way out of the Dothraki Sea.

Garin of the Greenblood, who was also with Arianne and Drey, is en route to Tyrosh. I'm personally quite convinced we'll see Garin again because he's been identified with a jade earring and a single gold tooth—which will make him very easily recognizable from another POV. Dorne under Prince Doran Martell appears to have a very close relationship with Tyrosh: as a girl, Arianne played in the Water Gardens with the green-haired daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh, and might have been sent to Tyrosh herself if not for Mellario's objections. If that had happened, she might have been betrothed to Viserys Targaryen there, in secret. If the current leaders of Tyrosh are at all like that Archon, Garin may be headed for a very cushy placement in Tyrosh, perhaps under the Archon.

Meanwhile, in Dorne:

Last we heard, Trystane Martell was meant to accompany Myrcella Baratheon back to King's Landing by land, led by Ser Balon Swann. However, Doran intends to waylay this plan by getting Myrcella to request that Balon to hunt down Darkstar...

Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne has fled, apparently to his home in High Hermitage, following the disaster of the Myrcella expedition.

If Doran's plan goes off as intended, then Areo Hotah, Obara Sand, and Ser Balon Swann will be traveling together to High Hermitage "to beard Darkstar in his den." It's hard to say what exactly is going to happen here, but that's another moving part to keep track of—and one that will potentially, finally, introduce Dawn to the story.

Besides that, the youngest three Sand Snakes are all over Dorne—one each in Hellholt, Sunspear, and the Water Gardens. Ellaria Sand is with her youngest in Hellholt. I don't think they're major players but it's good to keep track of them.

Final Thoughts

After compiling all this, I’m realizing I’m much more interested (and convinced by) a unified Dornish effort yet to be created. There’s no way that Doran is able to see the future perfectly enough to plan ahead of all of these variables, but one power player having all these points of access is going to be pretty rare and valuable moving forward.

And, as I’ve suggested in the post here, I think it’s likely that the information they get about Dany might be biased and outdated by the time it reaches Doran, which could lead to a miscalculation.

[atopvisenyashill]

no starklings bc that’s incredibly complicated lmao.

i almost didn’t include lollys since falyse is technically the heiress when the series starts but falyse also doesn’t have a single child before she dies, so the inheritance of the stokeworth holdings has Been up in the air. also it’s my poll i do what i want & i want good things for lollys.

wynafryd is also kind of an odd case bc her father wylis may still have a son after her, but like catelyn as a child, wynafryd is heir presumptive of white harbor and seems to be acting in the same capacity as the heir to an heir would (for example, being in on her grandfather’s schemes).

maege mormont is not dead but dacey is so that makes alysanne her heir, and one day the future lady of bear island.

i wasn’t gonna include people whose entire male lines had been killed during the wo5k bc that’s like, a real special case but i also didn’t want to leave out alys aksjs (altho harrion is still alive 😭😭) so i justified it by using alysanne here instead of dacey. altho i do wonder - was dacey, as heir, just acting the way male heirs do by waiting so long to marry, or did she never intend to marry and perhaps intended for alysanne’s first born to be her own heir??? idk just a thought i had about how dacey doesn’t have kids despite being nearly thirty.

if i forgot anyone no i didn’t

[beyondmistland]

What do you think Arianne and Quentyn Martell’s respective friend groups (Sylva Santagar, Garin and Andrey Dalt for Arianne; Gerris Drinkwater, Archibald and Cletus Yronwood for Quentyn) would think of each other and what would their hypothetical interactions look like, in your opinion?

I think Arianne's antagonistic relationship with Quentyn, coupled with Quentyn's negative past experiences with the Sand Snakes (whom Arianne is noticeably close to) would color any interaction between their individual social circles and not in a good way.

Thanks for the question, anon

[vis3rys]

@bruiisedpetals asked: You're royalty, aren't you? Spent years talking down to men. / from Sylva Santagar

"Clearly   you   lack   a   history   lesson   on   the   last   twenty   years,   then."   The   anger   that   boils   inside   Viserys   is   noticeable   in   purple   eyes   but   he   refrains   from   doing   anything   else.   He   can   see   his   entire   life   in   flashes.   He   is   royalty.   "The   last   time   I   spoke   to   any   man   as   a   royal,   I   was   eight   years   old   and   I   was   drifting   in   a   boat   away   from   my   mother's   dead   body   after   childbirth.   So   don't   presume   you   know   how   I   talk   or   not   to   men."   They   do   not   know   what   he   had   to   do.   They   only   know   the   latest   part   of   his   story.  

Not   the   ones   he   is   fond   of   but   the   ones   people   are   aware.   Sold   his   sister   to   a   Khal   for   an   army   that   never   came   to   his   aid,   lost   in   the   Dothraki   Sea,   spend   days   in   the   desert,   to   die,   only   to   find   himself   on   his   way   back   to   Essos   and   now   to   Dorne.   "I   am   royal,   yes.   I   am   the   blood   of   the   dragon.   But   do   not   talk   to   me   as   if   you   are   aware   of   what   I   had   done   the   last   twenty   years.   Or   what   I   been   thinking   of.   Dorne   never   lifted   a   finger   to   help   me   and   my   sister,   despite   the   alliance."  

No   Dornish   ships   came   to   take   them   to   safety   there.   Instead,   he   had   to   roam   the   streets   selling   his   clothes   and   books   and   any   possession   he   had.   And   when   the   Targaryen   name   meant   nothing   no   more   and   the   last   of   their   protection   passed   away,   they   were   tossed   to   the   street.   They   call   him   the   beggar   king,   and   he   is   fueled   at   that   fire.

[isefyres-archive]

𝖓𝖊𝖜 𝖒𝖚𝖘𝖊𝖘 𝖆𝖉𝖉𝖊𝖉:

Lady Elinda Massey. as a noblewoman of House Massey and a lady-in-waiting to Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen during the Dance of the Dragons. The youngest and gentlest of the Queen's attendants, Elinda's loyalty to her queen was noteworthy by her dedication and her death. Supposedly she gouged out her own eyes at the sight of her queen being devoured by the dragon Sunfyre. Dance Era.

Ser Garlan Tyrell. known as Garlan the Gallant, is a knight of House Tyrell and the second son of Lord Mace Tyrell and Lady Alerie Hightower. His personal coat of arms is two golden roses on green, to denote his status as second son. He is known as one of the better swordsman on the realm. He takes charge of the guards in Highgarden and plans to bring his sister back home.

Lady Wynafryd "Wyna" Manderly. the eldest daughter of Ser Wylis Manderly and Leona Woolfield and heir to White Harbor. As part of the terms of White Harbor being pardoned and returning to the king's peace of Tommen I Baratheon, Wynafryd is betrothed to the widowed Rhaegar Frey. Wynafryd's betrothal ends with the suspected death of Rhaegar on his way to Winterfell. Like her sister, Wyna is a Stark loyalist and pledges the independence of the North.

Joy Hill, the bastard daughter of Gerion Lannister, according to her cousin Jaime, she is a sweet but lonely child since her father was lost at sea. After the siege of Riverrun, Lady Sybell Spicer mentions to Ser Jaime Lannister that his late father, Tywin, had promised a bride from Casterly Rock for her eldest son, Ser Raynald Westerling. Joy was send to her cousin Princess Myrcella to avoid the girl being wed to a Frey or Westerling.

Lady Sylva Santagar, known as Spotted Sylva, is a member of House Santagar. She is the heir of Ser Symon Santagar, the Knight of Spottswood. A childhood friend of Princess Arianne Martell. Though Doran Martell, the Prince of Dorne, deigns not to punish Sylva for her role in the conspiracy, she is sent home to her father. Her father quickly betroths Sylva to the aged Lord Eldon Estermont. Sylva is sent to Greenstone, and married soon after. Her role as heir is now disputed by her youngest sister.

Emperor Bu Gai. seventeenth of the azure emperors, is the current God-Emperor of the Golden Empire of Yi Ti. His seat is located at the city of Yin, in a palace said to be larger than all of King's Landing. His rule is challenged by imperial general Pol Qo in Trader Town, who claims to be the first of the orange emperors. Bu Gai pledges to help Daenerys Targaryen if she helps him regain control of his city.

Lady Myla Toyne. The last known member of the family was Ser Myles Toyne, a captain-general of the exiled Golden Company in Essos. Myla was born in exile and got her father's trading business, due to her connections with the Golden Company, Myla is a supporter of Young Griff/Aegon and set sale back to Westeros.

Lady Alys Karstark is a noblewoman of House Karstark and is the only daughter of Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold. When she was six, Alys and her father, Lord Rickard, visited Winterfell. Despite Alys's young age, Rickard wanted her to charm Robb Stark in hopes of arranging a betrothal. Alyn has converted to a mixture of the Old Gods and the Red God of R'hllor.

Marei Hill is a pleasure worker at Chataya's brothel in King's Landing. Marei has green eyes and porcelain skin. Tyrion Lannister describes her long straight hair as being silvery on one occasion and pale white-gold on another. She is one of the few literate women in the brothel. Merei is based on teh theory of her being a bastard daughter of Tywin Lannister, fathered during his tenure as Hand of the King after the death of his wife. Her mother is said to resemble the late Joanna.

Alyn Velaryon born Alyn of Hull and later called Alyn Oakenfist, was Lord of the Tides, Master of Driftmark, and head of House Velaryon. Alyn was a legitimised bastard of dragonseed descent, coming from Hull on the island of Driftmark. His brother was Ser Addam Velaryon, a dragonrider. Alyn would later marry Baela Targaryen and rumored to have Princess Aliandra as a lover during his stay in Dorne. Dance Era.

[writingsofwesteros]

Lady Sylva Santagar was Stevonna's aunt. Newly wed to her uncle Eldon Estermont. And apparently Lady Santagar had not gotten the idea of what married life entailed.

"so lord Tywin, is it true you resemble the Great Lions as they speak. Patient with their prey, the Kings of their lands, lounging surrounded by their pride of lionesses?" sylva purrs with no shame.

Stev grinds her teeth, one brow subtly raising towards her new "aunt". Tywin seems to be just as bored as he replies. "Words of ones character often get unnecessarily high of praise when they are sung by the person whose character is of question", he says simply. His hand wandering to stev's thigh under the table.

"oh but doesn't a man like you for once deserve to be praised and pampered?", sylva's tone got even more suggestive.

Stev sighs now turning to Sylva. "Some praises and pampers are more genuine when only two people are there to share them", she says simply lifting from the table, making eye contact with Lady Santagar as she kisses Tywin's head. "if a tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound even if no one hears it. Passion is still wild even if no one sees the height of it. And lords and ladies cease to exist even if no one is there to witness their end"

!!!!!!!