#Superman/Batman: Public Enemies but with my comfort characters

[1mm4d13]

These two need a solo movie together

+ matching pfps

[davidmann95]

I read your post about why Batman is great and I love how thoughtful that is. Can you do one for Superman? Thanks ^_^

Unsurprisingly, I’ve touched on a lot of the basic aspects of it before, so for a couple parts of this I’ll keep it restrained (speaking entirely relatively), but given I think about Superman more than most people think about their best friends, I feel qualified to state that yes: Superman is great. As I said with Batman, the reasons why on a mass cultural basis are much broader than ‘he’s a really well-written character’ - hell, too often that isn’t even the case, even if plenty *have* stepped up over the years - so I’ll start with the lizard hindbrain stuff and work my way down to the finer details.

Superman has iconic power by default

What it really comes down to, at least in terms of keeping him afloat in the public eye when actual public opinion on him has been shot completely to hell over the last couple decades, is that Superman is a Big Deal. He’s the founder of his own genre: literally every surface-level aspect of his mythology is shorthand for the concept he created as well as for plenty beyond superheroes, from the suit (trunks included) to Lois Lane to Lex Luthor to Clark Kent to flying to Kryptonite to Bizarro and Brainiac to super-pets and x-ray vision. A red cape fluttering in the breeze is itself an evocative image entirely sans context, because people know that means him, by which it really means all superheroes. That means he takes the hits of getting all the complaints other characters duck even as others write thinkpieces on his place in culture and how he represents everything from America to Jesus to conservative values to the immigrant experience, all from people who may well have never picked up a comic or watched a cartoon of his in their lives. Even when most people don’t know much about him as a character, he as a symbolic figure is too massive to not grapple with one way or another, even via shorthand such as ‘he’s dumb’ or ‘he stands for us at our best’; while many of his recent woes can be traced back to people telling stories solely about or defined by that iconography, it still has power. Kids on the other side of the world from wherever you’re sitting right now know he can leap a tall building in a single bound. There’s maybe two or three other fictional characters in the world with that level of exposure and impact, and the unconscious emotional connection that comes baked right into it.

Superman is a protector

When kids talk about loving him because he can do anything, and adults talk about how he brings back those memories of joy and comfort, I think this is what it really comes down to a lot of the time. Superman’s the one who looks out for us, the guy who cares about you. Yeah, there’s gotta be the odd story about how NOT EVEN SUPERMAN CAN SAVE EVERYONE! to keep him honest, but by and large, yes he can. He wears a fun flashy uniform and he can wrap you up in his cape and fly you away from whatever bad’s happening, and even if something can catch up, no bullet or bomb in the world is going to get through him to you, or even hurt him enough to at least be scary. Nothing’s so hard or so big or so scary he can’t help, not really; he naps on clouds and swims in the sun. He’s polite, and never aggressive towards the innocent (not even that often towards the guilty), and he doesn’t talk down to people even though he’s stronger and knows better. He’s as confident as a cool big brother, as supportive and sturdy as a good dad, as vaguely ethereal and perfectly impossible as Santa Claus. It’s not an act, it’s not impersonal - he wants you to be okay, he cares about you and he’ll do whatever he can to make sure you’ll be alright. When that’s done just right? That kind of unreserved, unconditional, powerful demonstration of kindness making a difference, even from a cartoon alien, can knock a lot of typically steely emotional walls down like balsa wood, especially when that can save the day just as much as quick wits or a fist, the way anyone here could too in the right circumstances when they try their best.

Superman is a romantic figure

Something overlooked or deliberately sidelined by many is that a huge, huge part of Superman’s appeal in lots of circles is that he can be a romantic ideal rather than (or as well as) a protective one. He’s a sweet, funny, confident, smart guy who’s built like Adonis and doesn’t think he’s better than everybody else even though he’s literally the best. He holds down a socially valuable job he’s successful and happy at, he’s gentle and considerate, and he’s entirely comfortable being second in his household to a commanding career woman who he’s instinctively protective of, but also willing to back off of when she feels smothered because he acknowledges her independence. He can fly her to the moon, he never lets her forget how happy he is that when he was left lost and alone on the other side of the universe he fell to the one place he could find her, and he wears tights. The comics may forget that, but Lois & Clark knew it. Smallville sure as hell knew it. So have the last couple movies, and Supergirl. Even Christopher Reeve, America’s Dad, got it on with Margot Kidder in that weird shiny Fortress hammock. You wanna talk about the aspects of Superman that go for…ahem…primal instincts, that he’s the member of the Justice League historically most likely to go shirtless* is worth bringing up. 

* Aside from maybe Batman, who’s usually beat to hell and too miserable to leverage any of that playboy charm, and Aquaman, who’s Aquaman.

Superman is an easy power fantasy

Obviously, superheroes are often power fantasies in general; they do stuff we can’t do but wish we could. And Superman’s near the top of that list not just because he’s iconic, and not even because of the scope of his power - Green Lantern and Thor are comparable in terms of raw ability, GL even has an honest-to-goodness wishing ring, but they don’t measure up in that regard. What is is, I think, is that Superman’s powers are rooted in physicality, and therefore easy to imagine yourself doing. Everything most people can do, he does best, from lifting to running to looking to hearing to punching. Even his non-physical powers have a connection to actual physical acts: to see through objects he focuses as if peering through a fog, he doesn’t shoot power blasts from his fists to light things on fire but instead burns them with a furious glare, he doesn’t dispassionately levitate through the air as a standard but takes off and holds his arms forward as if in a mighty never-ending leap. Batman may be ‘real’, but if you imagined suddenly being him, you wouldn’t be Batman, you’d be a rich dude with a weaponized theme park in his basement, because you have no training and no tangible point of reference for thinking of how anything works beyond “punch and throw things”. But it’s easy to imagine being Superman in a visceral, physical sense - just imagine everything you did worked optimally, even the way it only could in a dream.

Superman is fun

All of the above makes him grand and likable, but that’s not the same as being able to support decades of monthly adventure stories. The basis of that is that he lives in a universe-sized, Earth-shaped toybox. He doesn’t just have superpowers and a nifty suit, he’s got a cave at the North Pole right near Santa with a time machine, statues of all his friends, a space zoo, a gun that turns people into ghosts, and a bottle city full of real people, plus robots to keep it all tidy, and only he can get in because the key was forged in the heart of a star. His cousin, kid, dog, and a few of his best friends wear capes too, and his ‘brother’ with reverse-superpowers lives on a cube planet where it’s perpetually opposite day. His friends and wife often go on their own adventures and get temporary superpowers just by being in his vicinity, he dated a mermaid in college, his after-school club was in the future and he commutes to the moon for work, and his deadliest enemies include a crazed mad scientist, an evil robot with a death-heart, a mischievous imp in a derby hat, and brilliant alien computer literally named Brainiac. Superman lives in a sci-fi fantasy dreamland of childish archetypes that can exist on any scale from the microscopic to the galactic to the other-dimensional, and as a result of that he can go on any adventure imaginable, to any time and place, and as a super-man who doesn’t often have to worry for his own safety, he can survive and appreciate and care for it all.

Superman mythologizes the mundane

And it’s where the fun and the big, mythic aura Superman carries meet that the magic happens that makes him as versatile and effective a character as there is in fiction: everything he does is rooted in something incredibly normal and human. His wild super-suit of circus royalty is made to reconnect with his heritage the only way he has, and to try and make himself colorful and unthreatening to a world he needs to accept him. When he travels through time, it’s never just to save reality, it’s to go see family and friends. He walks his dog around the rings of Saturn, he looks at his city in a bottle and wonders if he’ll ever be able to get around to taking care of that, he walks on the bottom of the ocean to think things through privately, and spends an entire day saving the world to get away from a conversation he doesn’t want to have. Every mad, cosmic aspect of his world is something totally normal blown up to be as big as it feels, and even when he does interact with the truly ‘mundane’, his presence alone elevates it to myth in a way no other superhero can. That’s the true source of his ability to adapt, rarely tapped but always potent: he can do anything, because he’s us.

Superman’s an actual good, interesting character

I place this at the bottom because it’s the aspect that’s most rarely captured, especially in the public eye (though the handful of times it has been are why he’s my favorite). But when he’s handled properly, then even divorced from everything else, Superman is fascinating as a *person*. Raised knowing there’s something different about him even as his weird alienness lets him understand people and the world around them in ways no others can, he learned one day he was born of the most mind-shattering act of cosmic horror imaginable, with a place greater than Earth in every way destroyed by coincidence, a signpost by any measure that the universe is a chaotic, meaningless, cruel place that destroys the innocent with indifference…and he became a good man who treasures life over anything. He has power that lets him do literally anything he pleases, and he spends half his life among us at a desk job because he thinks we’re just swell and he wants to keep being part of it all. Even though he can never entirely, not really, divvying his life up into discrete, manageable chunks that let him interact with the world on his own terms and try to see through what he sees as his responsibility, until a woman sees through the deception and self-deception and gets the real him to tentatively come out. 

He has fun little hobbies, and unusual friendships, and a complex rivalry with the one man in the world who could’ve been his equal. He’s seen the best and worst of the world, and he accepts it all, but he still radiates a decency and innocence that can be mistaken for naivete by those who don’t know him. He’s clever but easy to catch off-guard in the right circumstances, always struggling to be the god people expect him to be rather than the inadequate fake his humility can make him look at himself as, he likes football and pretzels and pulp novels and Metallica, he gets a kick out of writing because it’s one of the few things he can do on an even playing field, he’s not sure how best to raise his kid, he worries that that one alien dictator is going to pop by again soon and he might not be ready to deal with it, he has to coordinate dates with his wife precisely because they both have such busy schedules, he counts dust particles in the air when he gets bored, and he believes in everybody. There’s so much going on with this guy, this identity-case, this brute, this pacifist, this establishment-man, this rebel and idealist and weirdo and a dozen other conflicting things. He’s been and done just about everything with charm and style over the decades, and it works, because it all adds up into one nice guy’s unusual, well-rounded life. And because it’s always anchored by an understanding: for all that he’s a unique freak of creation, he knows that in all the madness and uncertainty and horror, the one thing we have to rely on is each other. So he’ll put on his suit and throw himself out there against the only things in the universe that could kill him when he could be doing anything else, because he’s found a home with us little people when he lost his, and he knows we’re worth the fight; everyone is, aliens just like him in their own ways, waiting to be saved the way they saved him when he landed in a field. That’s why Superman’s great.

[alwayscryingoverdannyb]

Movies I Can Watch Over (and over and over)

I was tagged by @ma-sulevin! I really enjoyed your answers so I thought I’d do it. You might have thought I fogot but oh no. I’m just a soggy noodle who literally takes over a month but I do not forget. I liked how you used gifs so I’m stealing that :3

10 movies I could watch (and have watched) over and over:

1. The Mask of Zorro (1997)

I’ve seen this cinematic masterpiece more times than any other movie. It has all my favorite tropes and is so well done in every regard. It’s funny but also very touching and come on… there’s no Zorro like Antonio’s Zorro :))

2. Asterix in Britain (1986)

This is great for kids but there’s so many cultural easter eggs it’s very entertaining for adults as well. It’s my childhood comfort movie, alright?? (pictured: a british person threatening roman soldiers who trampled his lawn)

3. Clash of the Titans (2010)

I feel like this movie is underappreciated :((( it has good cast and a fucking hilarious, parody-like sequel! x)) I watch it when I’m sad or sick or both. (I also really like Sam Worthington)

4. Superman/Batman: Public enemies (2009)

It’s good for the soul to see these two working together :3 This is also one of my go-to movies when I’m down with a cold or sth. All DC animated movies are.

5. Texas Killing Fields (2010)

I can’t explain this one. It has good, dark atmosphere, tension and the brilliant Chloe Moretz. (Did I mention I really like Sam Worthington?)

6. Calamity Jane (1953)

I don’t like musicals but this is just so damn entertaining; there’s no bad guy in the story. It’s just about love and friendship and coming to terms with your own self. 5*, 10/10 would watch again.

7. The Boondock Saints (1999)

It seems pretty weird at first but the retrospective storytelling, the irishness of the entire movie and Willem Defoe a brilliant, gay, cross-dressing detective make for an irresistible combination.

8. The Replacements (2000)

A rom-com from sports enviroment, your classic stencil about putting together a bunch of weird dumbasses and performing a miracle :D but the supporting characters are hilarious and there’s excellent music. I love it so much :’))

9. The Mummy (1999)

I will never get tired of watching this movie.

10. The Magnificent Seven (1960)

I’m a huge fan of westerns and cowboys so this classic is a must on this list. :)))

Thank you so much for the tag - it’s been a lot of fun putting this together! I’m tagging @tedkordisanasshole @jul-likes-magpies @two-dames @fishylife and whoever else feels like it!

[mithen]

Hello, I'm kinda new to the Superbat fandom and I was wondering if there's a guide or something for the comics. I don't know if such thing exists but it never hurts to ask! I've never read a comic in my life, so sorry about that but I wanna start in someway. Your fic got me interest in Superbat

Ah, what a wonderful question to get!  DC Comics are daunting af, I know, so here are a few recommendations for where to start--I recommend getting trade paperbacks of these, I think most of them are still available?  Some of these are cut and pasted from an earlier post...

For a pretty full list that runs up to the reboot, you can check out my guide on LJ which covers a LOT of stuff.

Jeph Loeb remains the go-to writer for Superbat emotions on the old Superman/Batman title:  Public Enemies and Absolute Power especially.   His run on Batman, Hush, also has some really good Clark/Bruce moments.  He cannot plot worth a damn but he delivers the emotional goods. His Superman for All Seasons has no Bruce in it but remains one of my favorite Superman stories.

Frank Miller’s Dark Knight Returns is not a favorite of mine, but it’s an important read because it set the tone for a lot of the modern versions of the two.  It’s also extremely slashy in a bitter, hatesexy sort of way.

  World’s Finest #282-300.  1982-1986 was a tumultuous time for comic books, and Superman and Batman briefly got very, very close before The Dark Knight came out and shifted the paradigm on their friendship.  This run of the World’s Finest title is…well, it’s… it’s got Superman and Batman crying together as they witness the great love of mating space worms. It’s got Superman almost murdering Barry Allen for implying Bruce might be dead, and saving him from mind control through the power of hugs.  It’s got Clark crying a single manly tear because Bruce won’t talk to him anymore, and Bruce sadly caressing a picture of the two of them.  Seriously, it’s…it’s worth a read if you can get it.

Kingdom Come by Mark Waid has its flaws, and over the years I’ve come to disagree with his characterization of Superman a bit, but it’s got a LOT of very good interactions between an older, sadder Clark and Bruce.  It’s kind of Waid’s answer to The Dark Knight, and features a different kind of rift between them, but one that turns out to be mendable.  I had to read it with Wikipedia open, though, because it’s got a HUGE cast.

Waid and Morrison’s runs on the JLA title, especially the “Tower of Babel,” “Divided We Fall,” and “World War III,” storylines, have a lot of good interactions between Superman and Batman.

Emperor Joker by Jeph Loeb is a hot mess of a comic book–tons of random characters and an even more random plot–but oh, the hurt/comfort, angst, and suffering for each other!  Yes, worth a read.

If you can ever get your hands on Shogun of Steel–an Elseworld AU in which Bruce is a gender-swapped ninja, with canonical romance between “Bruce” and Clark–please do so.

You can read most of “The Trust” at the link–it’s a short story about their relationship, short and (very) sweet (if you find sweet “I would totally use a gun to murder you rather than let you hurt people, Clark.”  Which I do).

In current comic books, the recently-ended Batman/Superman title had some really good moments in it and also had beautiful, very abstract art.

Max Landis’s American Alien had some very good Clark/Bruce content.

The Supersons title that’s currently ongoing is probably your best bet for Clark/Bruce content in an ongoing title.  The focus is on Jon and Damian, but their fathers’ solid friendship is always presented as a contrast to their pricklier alliance.

Feel free to drop me an ask if you want any more details!  I’m always happy to talk about Clark and Bruce!

[davidmann95]

The Nightwing Problem

I mentioned this the other day in passing, but I’ve got more thoughts on the subject: I’m no longer convinced Dick Grayson as Nightwing is a good idea, damn cool as that costume may be.

I was convinced. Tim Seeley, Javier Fernandez and their collaborators really knocked it out of the park with the introductory volume of the new Nightwing book spinning out of Grayson; it combined the best of the world-trotting vibe from that with the acid-tinged death trap gimmicks of Morrison’s time with Dick as Fun Batman, and while I don’t think that’s incompatible with just making him Batman again, it’s still different enough from the regular model that it’s reasonable to distinguish it with a whole other identity. If you were able to entirely divorce him from what Nightwing has meant up to this point, and really grab by the horns what Grayson and that first arc of the new book set up for him - the dashing globetrotting super-adventurer who can journey into morally murikier territory than Batman himself, because he’s not vulnerable in the same ways Bruce is vulnerable - I think it could’ve worked. It might’ve still had some issues that I’ll get into, but it could’ve worked in spite of them.

But you can’t really do that; Nightwing had over a hundred and fifty issues to himself in that name before this came along. And as we were just reminded when Seeley journeyed into more familiar territory (I’m pretty convinced the first arc of Nightwing was at least in part really a reconfigured version of what would have been an arc of Grayson), the name doesn’t actually come with much other than baggage at this point.

To be clear: the recent Blüdhaven story by Seeley, Marcus To and company was by no means a bad set of comics. Nightwing is still one of the most underrated, purely entertaining superhero books out there right now, and I’m tremendously looking forward to the upcoming Nightwing Must Die pitting him against an army of his greatest enemies, from the Talon to Pyg to fucking Deathwing. I also know bringing him back to his iconic city was Geoff Johns’ idea that Seeley had to implement, as I expect was bringing back his old ‘rogues gallery’. But it’s still an arc - hot on the heels of an opening titled Better Than Batman - built almost entirely around reaffirming his status as a third-tier offshoot of the actual brand of importance. It’s literally him teaming up with the villains who couldn’t hack it in Gotham, and it draws a clear line between him and them as being in similar positions. I dig setting up his new haunt as the Vegas to Gotham’s New York/Chicago, but even that can’t erase the vague feeling that the characters’ had the keys to his nice shiny new car snatched out of his hands, and now he has to go back to the busted-ass old model his dad loaned him.

I get the impulse to hand him his own city - it gives a stable environment, obvious opportunities for building up a supporting cast, and a base to head back to even if he regularly goes globe-trotting - but as presented, Blüdhaven has always been Gotham-lite. Even now that it’s more pointedly distinguishing itself, it’s still a shadowy city of corrupt cops where Gotham crooks wander around. All elements that could work, but again, it’s straight-up established that the ex-villains here, the people it’s leaning into the nostalgia of Dick having once counted as arch-enemies...were the no-hopers who weren’t cool enough to be worth Batman’s time. Complete with Dick solving a stock Batman-style Whodunnit? hinging on one of the most iconically awful Batman villains in Orca the Whale Woman, and flirting with a morally ambiguous acrobatic lady supervillain. If Batman and Robin established Dick can work as an A-list superhero, and the last few years of Grayson and the beginning of Nightwing demonstrated a valid and fascinating new direction for him to be spun off into, this arc felt like it was reestablishing that whoa there son, don’t be getting too big for your britches now, you’re still Officially Worse Batman. Whatever you think of the stories themselves, that’s how Nightwing has been known for over 20 years, and that’s a narrative gravity I’m not sure he can escape as long as he has that name.

And even if he could, Nightwing isn’t his main identity anyway. The entirety of pop culture can chime in on that.

Not by a mile am I suggesting he should go back to being Robin (though Arkham Knight presenting an adult Robin working alongside Batman in Tim Drake has some interesting possibilities), but it’s more than just cultural weight that keeps that as his biggest identity, even in the comics. The thing is, Nightwing as a name doesn’t mean anything. Yes, I know Superman came up with it, and that these days there’s a connection with the Court of Owls, but those are purely abstract. There was some recent thing where he said “yeah, people think I call myself Nightwing because I’m like Batman, a flying thing at night, but really it’s because of Superman’s suggestion regarding a Kryptonian fairy tale”, but citing the nerd trivia explanation can’t change that the first explanation is clearly the actual reason he’s named that. That’s all there is to it; it’s a cool-sounding name. Robin on the other hand is an obvious pairing with Batman as a brighter flying creature, and if you think of it in the context of heroism you get the obvious connection to Robin Hood. And if you want to talk about him as an equal-but-opposite contrast to Batman’s Zorro figure, comparing him to a charming hero to the people so upbeat they called his partners his Merry Men goes a long way. Hell, Dick sure knew that, given Robin’s the title he picked as a crimefighter, Nightwing being a years-distant second choice. Robin is just plain a better name and identity, as evidenced by the fact that DC’s made at least 4 others of note to fill the void...Richard left behind. Nightwing again has a cool costume, but it can never be his iconic identity in even a best-case scenario; he’s not even Batman’s partner anymore, he’s just the off-brand. Short of showing up in a massively popular and acclaimed movie with virtually none of the elements that have established him over the years as a lesser Batman figure, I’m sincerely skeptical that any amount of momentum could change that forever. In a popular sense, it’s all he’s got.

What would I do then, unless that theoretical movie comes along? I say make him co-Batman again, and totally not just because my favorite writer did that within a year of me starting to collect comics. You can still do all the fun stuff Nightwing offers with him; he can have his own city if you really want, he can smile and go on fun adventures as Fun Batman now that Bruce doesn’t do that, you could even redesign his costume to be more in line with his sleeker Nightwing look while still being recognizably Batman. He gets A-list talent by default. DC sustained two Batmen for a year as equals, so it’s certainly possible. It’s simpler to explain too - when someone asks “Wait, what happened to the first Robin?”, “Well, now he’s Batman too, and Batman’s son is his Robin” works a lot better than “He calls himself Nightwing now and is his own minor superhero. Do you remember him as an occasional guest-star from the 90s TV show? No, he was Robin for that first part, the second part. Yes, there was a second part. No, he’s not on the Teen Titans anymore either. Anyway, he protects another city that’s basically shittier Gotham where he fights a bunch of crappy villains.”

Most of all though, Dick thrives in situations that threaten to undermine him. With his and Bruce’s relationship threatening to fall apart, wondering if he can cut it as Robin after Two-Face beats him, worrying about whether he can escape the ‘shadow of the bat’, trying to hold onto his morals as an agent of SPYRAL, struggling to reform Damian, even being trapped as Slade’s apprentice. He works when forces threaten his sense of stability, and he as a fundamentally upbeat guy naturally finds having to be Batman - plus all the attendant baggage besides - the ultimate destabilizing force, far more so than basically still comfortably being Robin into adulthood. It’s a perpetual conflict generator that still allows him to do his own thing as a fun character while also positioning him as a major player - the most major player possible. And given Anthony Mackie or Sebastian Stan are probably going to become a new Captain America onscreen in the next few years, I think the public at large is going to be primed to accept the idea of there being multiple Batmen of reasonably equal importance far more easily than they could be swayed to care about the guy whose main popular trait is not being Batman.