#SELFCEST IS NOT INHERENTLY PROSHIP

[movie-plush-baby]

i put them in the lobby and they immediately did this. gay ass time travelers. are you trying to kiss her. what r u doing.

[kumidark]

just wanna share my croisstime headcanons here since they get a lot of hate for no reason:

timekeeper knows everything about croissant initially, but as croissant diverges from the croissant(s) timekeeper knows, she starts to be surprised by croissant. like croissant mentions how she likes her coffee and timekeeper's like??? that's not how i remember liking my coffee. and as croissant starts to change, timekeeper feels parts of her change too. and it scares her, because she's never felt uncertain like this. but it also excites her, because she's finally found something she can't predict.

as croissant grows more confident in herself and loves herself, timekeeper also feels more loved and at peace. but also, it's a double-sided sword, because some days she wakes up and can't tell if she's still herself. i can imagine her looking down at her hands and seeing croissant's gloves instead of her own for a second. she'd blink and they'd be gone, but she could never be sure they were actually there in the first place.||

not really croisstime but i wanted to include it anyways:

timekeeper keeps her line that holds her timeline in her left eye. she removed it from the place that holds all the other lines (from the story with string gummy) in order to keep it safe, and ensure nobody could cut it. it causes lots of pain to her body, and it was hard to place it into her eye, but she made it work because she used to be/still is?? a mechanic. she also has other parts of her body removed to contain mechanisms to help with time travel and stuff, so if youre close enough to her you can hear ticking and whirring. 

croissant is the only one who can get close enough to really hear the extent of the ticking, and she likes to lean her head against timekeeper's chest and listen to it. it comforts her, since she's so used to the sound of machinery.

(SELFCEST ISN'T INHERENTLY PROSHIP. PROSHIPPERS DNI)

[scoliosisgoblin]

I mean on technical level, yes selfship is inherently proship. Since you are pro on shipping yourself/oc/etc. with fictional characters.

My memory is foggy at the moment but I think the first selfshipper was a proshipper, so that's also that!

People who put 'proship dni' but also selfship are mostly people who think that proshippers only ship really bad stuff, and not someone who doesn't care what you ship. So they put that to keep their blog safe I guess? I'm proship so I'm sorry I don't know much about the anti side of view.

Hope this was, somewhat, helpful ^^;;

MY BAD, I MEANT SELFCEST BAHAHAHHAA

also, with proship, it's mainly associated with incest and pedophilia (problematic ship), not really whether or not you're cool with people shipping characters together, etc.

I DIDN'T MEAN SELFSHIP MY BAD, I'LL GO CORRECT MY PREVIOUS POST BAHSNDKDJDKDMDMDMD

[ollyou]

(Probably doesn’t need much of a warning but I wouldn’t suggest reading this if selfcest makes you uncomfortable)

Honestly being on Twitter longer and not confining myself to consuming one fandom’s content has surprisingly made me feel a lot better about me and my fp’s ship. Like I lived a life thinking “haha yeah, selfcest is funny”, then having my fp decide “haha yeah, selfcest is funny so I’m making a comic of our ollys kissing”, which was such a silly joke 😭 Obviously this became a source of comfort for both of us because it’s something that’s almost been a thing for three whole years(!!) and the joke suddenly had lore.

Then of course… those people came along. People I’ve mentioned in the past; people who have tried to ruin my life and make me out to be disgusting simply because I ship a non-canon King Olly interpretation with an alternate universe version of himself. People who lied about the ship to make it seem bad, pretending it was between a 21 and 17 year old (haha, it’s not and never has been— they’re both around 17-18 in range). It made me question, “Is it really that bad to like something harmless and impossible in real life simply because some jerks online are purposefully interpreting it as harmful?”.

I’ve seen a lot on Twitter. I don’t really like using the term “selfcest” regularly unless in a joking context, and I do think it needs a name change to not cause confusion, but I’ve actually seen… a majority of people don’t think it’s problematic. I’ve seen a lot of tweets with lots of likes from people who vehemently hate proshippers telling the world that selfcest isn’t proship and it’s not bad at all. Lots of people being educated on the meaning of the word and how it’s not problematic because it’s only self love and impossible in real life. Hell, even with the release of Fionna and Cake, the Adventure Time spinoff series, a whole new popular ship that counts as selfcest rose up, and with it, a lot of people who defend the trope with their life.

I wouldn’t say I’m into selfcest. I have a ship with my fp that’s by definition selfcest, but one ship doesn’t mean you have a fetish or anything. I just think it’s otherwise funny. It’s probably one of the most harmless shipping tropes out there, as bold of a statement that may be (exceptions being the usual bad stuff, like minor x adult age gap, or sexual content between minors). In fact, did you know autosexuality is a thing? It’s a sexual/romantic orientation on the asexual spectrum that refers to an attraction to oneself, and is a very real and valid thing. Sometimes I wonder how these people would feel if they knew about that identity— would they reject it because they think attraction to yourself is somehow inherently incestuous, or would they accept it, but reject the fantasies autosexual folks may project onto fictional characters that cannot be harmed like real people?

I’ve actually identified as autosexual in the past. I saw quite a lot of people making fun of it online back then, so I kind of silently took back that label, but all I’ve seen super recently almost makes me a bit more comfortable publicly identifying with it. It’s nothing that hurts anyone, because what you do with yourself alone, provided you’re in the right state of mind, will always be consensual, and brings no one else into the equation. Maybe someone will feel rejected if one were to say “Sorry, I like myself more”, but is that really our biggest issue? Is that anything truly “problematic”?

It’s not— it’s harmless, and always will be. And it makes me happy to see the majority of people agree.

What would I do without my 450+ image album of my fp alone’s art of our Ollys, anyway?

[gangles-toybox]

Just a little sidenote

If ur wondering what happened to my reblog of the stimboard of onecest I just now realized the account name had proshipper in it so yknow. gross. Plus I would assume selfcest like onecest and such wouldn't be proshipping on paper, and onecest itself is not inherently toxic or abusive as far as I'm aware so I'm confused why they would post onecest on a proship account but whatevs just wanted to let ya'll know.

[painonthebrain]

I’m gonna be honest watching everything with @/emmettworld go down is just kinda sad and also makes me. Conflicted?

Idk proship vs anti shit below cut im just . I probably shouldnt be writing anything rn bc my brain isn’t functioning for. Some fucking reason but whatever i do what i want

Like I don’t define myself as proship bc I think the whole pro vs anti thing is like. Ugh I can’t find the words. Idk it’s like.

Like I don’t want to call myself proship because. I have so many friends who will tear me apart for that and itll ruin our relationships and I love them and also I hate like. Having to attribute myself to a “side” but like. I’m completely fine with everything fictional. Yes. I don’t care, as long as it’s properly tagged, warned, etc.

Also I ship stuff like selfcest and clonecest so. Idk I don’t think antis do that.

And anti culture reeks of ew ew ew this (fiction) is gross! It shouldn’t exist AT ALL! And proship culture reeks of oh my god these stupid baby minors this is FICTION. DUH. Youre all beneath me

Anyway I know theres at least one moot i i can think of who has proship dni in their intro and like... if ur reading this. hi. I dont call myself proship but i certainly have some of the beliefs which is why i interact but if you’re uncomfortable u can totally block me like. Im not doing this to be some shady imposter who lurks in the dark i just dont label myself as any of this shit!!

im like. Lowkey terrified of how people are going to react to this post bc im HORRIBLE at using my words rn but like.

Like i just want people to make whatever tf they want to make! It shouldn’t be a person’s problem to “sanitize” themselves! And also fictional characters are quite literally made up people we create to do whatever the fuck we want to them! But also it’s important (in my opinion) to be at least a little critical of what you make. But also you shouldn’t have to file down your expression. But alsO-

Like there are so many factors to well. Factor in when it comes to fiction! And i try so hard to develop my media literacy (even with my underdeveloped baby frontal lobe) every day but even so these topics can be hard to navigate

Anyway yeah no conclusion paragraph because as you can probably tell from my writing. I have no idea what im saying i just feel the need to say something

Idk i just feel like a neurotic prey animal right now like im like.

Ok ok time to get personal guys

I have like MAJOR irrational fears that i am a horrible person like. Almost constantly and pro vs anti discourse makes that shit go fucking WILD. anyway. Yeah i have like this almost fanatic paranoid fear that no matter how hard i try i am a Bad Person and that im like. Metaphorically rotting from the inside and eventually i will expose it to everyone that i am Bad and Awful and Nasty and that even then when everything goes bad ill be completely unaware of my own inherent corruptness and that i will eventually hurt people or whoever i have the capacity to hurt and that things are doomed to fail for me because im such an abhorrent person

Anyway yeah those thoughts are obviously NONSENSICAL because… what??? The fuck????

But then my brain is like ooh yeah lets introduce some fucked up thoughts in here. Intrusive thoughts, if you will. Which all span many nasty awful things that are usually highly morally corrupt and wow I wonder if that ties into all that i said before? Yep it probably does!

Which makes me anxious as hell because then im also convincing myself that those thoughts are real and are my own thoughts and wants. Which FUCKS ME UPPP

So anyway that’s why I don’t label myself as pro or anti because proship makes me feel like im a horrible person who will hurt people and is disgusting and awful (also the intrusive thoughts) and the anti label goes against my very strong beliefs of freedom of creation and expression etc.

Yay rant vent brain barf over!!!!

[schroedingers-faggot]

based on this post I have a further question (especially for those who do consider selfcest/clonefucking an incest/proship variant)

[freshinksans]

sorry, this response is a week late, if you don't want to continue this conversation i apologize, feel free to ignore me !! im just very passionate about selfcest (and sanscest specifically) and would like to give the prospective of myself and other folks i either know or have seen.

sorry for the rambley disclaimers incoming, im paranoid and reading comprehension has gone to shit on tumblr. i'd rather try to make my intentions as clear as possible so no bystanders can try and start shit.

mentioning this because i think it's important context, not because i intend to spark discourse: i dont like to label myself as "antiship" due to how broad of an umbrella term of beliefs that covers, and also certain associations with the term, but my views in the whole anti/proship thing lean antiship.

also important context: ive also been a sanscest shipper since 2016-2017 (cant remember specifically when, sorry !!) and have been fairly active as a lurker in the community for a long time.

im putting this under a read-more due to the fact this response is

1. long and rambley (again, sorry !! really into this topic.)

2. gets more into aspects of the whole proship vs antiship debate, specifically discussing antishipper's prospective on selfcest and why some may not label it as incest & proship, and also the reasonings of why they are uncomfortable with incest (and when selfcest doesn't have specific qualities, they dont label it as incest or proship.)

again, this response & any explanations is not meant to cause arguments surrounding shipping discourse, i will simply be explaining an antiship perspective because it's relevant to the topic. this is not meant to be any sort of attack on anybody. i intend to keep the conversation as mature as possible :] im sooo passionate about selfcest as a topic because i find it really interesting, so lets keep it nice in here ^_^ i dont like to argue shipping discourse. peace & love on the planet earth

i do think the vibe you're getting is generally correct, that is the case for alot of people and why they're comfortable with sanscest despite being antiship and being uncomfortable with other selfcest ships.

but i also would like to bring up that alot of people who are antiship or uncomfortable with proship content, both within the utmv community and outside it, dont actually view selfcest itself as inherently proship depending on how you treat it.

i've been seeing this conversation/reasoning alot in the past 2 years.

yes it does have the -cest suffix, it means self incest, but many have said they either don't inherently consider it incest and consider it poorly named OR just don't inherently care about selfcest specifically because 1. selfcest isn't something that can happen in real life the same way sibling incest can and does, and 2. selfcest doesn't inherently have all the qualities that make alot of people uncomfortable with sibling incest (which also ends up tying into number 1.)

what makes alot of people (or atleast myself and some folks i personally know) uncomfortable with incest is a mix of how related they are genetically and also the dynamic that folks who are related are expected to have in society, and how that will impact your view of someone related to you. <- if that makes sense. i mightve explained that poorly OOPS !

if you were to suddenly see a clone or alternate version of yourself, one may not have the same reaction as if you suddenly found out someone standing next to was your sibling or cousin. society tells you how you should act and react to familial relationships like siblings or cousins, but there's not expectation for how to reaction to yourself, even if you are "related."

that removes the whole "dynamic you're expected to have" section, and when it comes to selfcest specifically, i don't like have a good explanation for it but the genetic relatedness just doesn't really inherently bother alot of people when it comes to specifically selfcest? i guess it's more of an exception. like, an attitude of "it's so unrealistic, who cares at this point?" even with ship kids.

anyways, the reason i say "inherently" a lot is because theres still cases where selfcest is considered incest and is considered proship by antishippers, which is why i said earlier "depending on how you treat it."

if one treats selfcest the same way they treat twincest when they ship it, then people will be uncomfortable with that content and consider it proship.

or, if the characters being shipped selfcestuously both happen to be within a canon and in that canon they choose to treat eachother like siblings or similar, then people may consider the shipping of that to be incest, and therefore proship.

i'd also like to bring up another important factor specific to the utmv fandom, and this one is more personal: utmv fandom has normalized selfcest in a way you don't see with many other fandoms that have been around longer. onceler is the only fandom i can think of thats similiar. for me personally, utmv was one of my first ever fandoms, i joined it at a young age and have shipped sanscest since pretty early on.

due to how normalized sanscest is within the fandom, even when i used to be uncomfortable with other selfcest ships (like papcest, for an easy example) ive always been alright with sans x sans content due to how it's always been something normal (to me) in the undertale fandom. i ended up shaping my views about selfcest around the fact that i liked sanscest and was fine with it. i think this is not something im alone with in the utmv fandom; i do think that the explanation of "well sans are kinda like a species" for some people came After people started to shipped them, and then needed some sort of explanation for why they're fine with it. (which, honestly folks do not need an explanation for every little thing but thats an entirely different ramble.)

theres a dozen more explanations i could give you too, such as for some folks selfcest is Just An Exception and/or simply Do Not Care, if you'd be interested, but i think this is getting rather long. SO!

TLDR: Many folks do not inherently consider Selfcest to be inherently proship or incestuous due to how Selfcest isn't something that can happen in real life the same way sibling incest can and does, and due to the lack of expectations about how one is to treat a clone or alternate self. Sanscest is also quite normalized in the UTMV fandom, and many fans who are antiship have shaped their opinions Around shipping it and became okay with it after UTMV fandom, especially folks who joined the fandom younger.

again, i apologize for how messy this is. i'm not very good at organizing my thoughts, but this is a topic im VERY passionate about (i became a huge fan of selfcest Due to UTMV) and i was really excited to respond to this! if you're interested in anything more, i'd love to talk about it more :]

I thought all Sanscest shippers were just. Proship by proxy. But I saw an antishipping account on Discord today that ships AfterDeath and asked people who hate the ship to DNI. So now I'm just confused. Are these just proshippers who don't want to admit they have exceptions/are actually proship or something? Or do some people just ignore the 'cest' written on the tin? Lol.

Please reblog for a larger pool. ^^

Also, note: No shipping discourse anywhere on this post please. Keep that to yourselves. I'm just curious what people think about the SHIPS, not each other. Be nice.