#Rhaegar bro you fucked up badly

[springs-hurts]

I can't believe Rhaegar decided to wear an armor decorated with Rubies of all thing... Bro you're going there to fight in battle or take part in some fashion show😭😭

[janiedean]

Reading the JB + stump meta, I felt there could be so much to unpack also about gender/roles in Westeros, there. J not being (a) "whole" (man) bc he thinks he can't *fight* or *have sex with a woman* without his right hand, C thinking he could only "fumble at" her and downgrading him from ideal lover/"me as man" to "undesirable servant I'll let fill my cup", B still seeing him as fighter *and* attractive + wondering if he'd like her to be soft and helpless even while playing knight to his DID..

man you’re opening the hoover damn here if you want to talk to me about jaime and brienne’s gender roles reversal X°DDDDDDD ANYWAY SINCE YOU SO NICELY ASKED

first, as my bro @ofwickedlight​ has pointed out here and here jaime is actually pretty.... not toxic-masculine for westeros standards actually all the contrary, and he already doesn’t have the notions about women being supposedly inferior that most other people have (I’m referring you to those metas because they explain it better than I could here), so we’re already discussing someone who technically is starting from a better vantage point when it comes to deal with that notion

now, going on each specific point you said...

jaime:

as far as jaime is concerned his problem isn’t specifically tied to his lack of masculinity attached to the hand but the hand itself in the sense that if he was born to be a warrior taking it from him is basically taking his main source of pride/joy from him and it makes him useless on his job since it’s being in the *kingsguard*, and given that he can’t be with cersei in public of course he makes up for it with his chivalric prowess... which he doesn’t have anymore. like, that is a self-esteem blow of epic proportions because if he doesn’t have that then he has nothing else going for his supposed usefulness (and mind how he keeps himself alive also thinking he’ll see cersei again because that makes him feel like he can survive another day - if he doesn’t have his skills he’ll have the woman he loves/who loves him, right?) and he has to command the kingsguard without what makes him a knight and so on. now, the thing is that he has to eventually find out that he can fight and have sex and so on also without the right hand and that doesn’t define him whatsoever, but that doesn’t matter because the way he processes things as I said in that other post, he equates feeling good with both sex and sword fights, so taking his ability from one also might mean taking away the other and guess what, if you don’t count the sept sex, he and cersei haven’t really... DONE ANYTHING that’s not her trying to have sex with him and him refusing her when he realizes she’s disgusted since then, which could cement it. but it’s not that it makes him feel like a woman in a derogatory sense, it’s mostly about him feeling like he doesn’t have anymore what makes him good at his job or makes him cersei’s mirror, and mind that until he meets her again and it goes like shit he’s subconsciously aware that she wouldn’t like it if he looked different from her:

The reflection in the water was a man he did not know. Not only was he bald, but he looked as though he had aged five years in that dungeon; his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don't look as much like Cersei this way. She'll hate that.

now, if she loves him that much, should she give a damn? yeah, my point exactly. and while he tells himself that he has to go back to her, he knows subconsciously that she would hate for him to be back changed enough that she can’t recognize herself in him, which should already suggest a lot. but we also have another thing on the other side of the barricade, ie when he asks after brienne when qyburn’s treating him:

"I will ask after her. What is this woman to you?""My protector." Jaime had to laugh, no matter how it hurt.

and okay, he finds it hilarious for obvious reasons, but he doesn’t go and think it’s ridiculous. actually, he is the first one who says she’s his protector. AND, in the tub:

"Does the sight of my stump distress you so?" Jaime asked. "You ought to be pleased. I've lost the hand I killed the king with. The hand that flung the Stark boy from that tower. The hand I'd slide between my sister's thighs to make her wet." He thrust his stump at her face. "No wonder Renly died, with you guarding him.”She jerked to her feet as if he'd struck her, sending a wash of hot water across the tub. Jaime caught a glimpse of the thick blonde bush at the juncture of her thighs as she climbed out. She was much hairier than his sister. Absurdly, he felt his cock stir beneath the bathwater. Now I know I have been too long away from Cersei. He averted his eyes, troubled by his body's response."That was unworthy," he mumbled. "I'm a maimed man, and bitter. Forgive me, wench. You protected me as well as any man could have, and better than most."

now, I think people wrote novels of meta on here but for my purposes, note that first he thinks the sight of the stump distresses her when instead she’s most likely skittish because she’s bathing naked with another naked guy and from someone who thinks she’s ugly/undesirable, bathing naked with someone else is exactly the kind of thing that’d make you skittish, so it wasn’t the stump, then he tells her everything he did with it and she doesn’t care, and she only jerks up when he mentions renly and her failure to protect him, not before. THEN he gets hard looking at her and he’s... I mean, you can see that he has a pretty fucked up conception of sexuality if he thinks ‘okay I’ve been too long away from c.’ then ‘oh fuck she’s making me hot’ when she gets him hard, but never mind that. also, he’s troubled by his own body’s response which is what a fifteen year-old guy would even think and he feels halfway guilty for having felt attracted to someone else which again, he has a fucked up conception of sexuality, but never mind that, what does he say to apologize? ‘I’m bitter and you did a better job than most would have,’ ie: men, and he’s aware that she basically kept him alive throughout that entire thing and doesn’t think she’s lesser for it, all the contrary.

tldr: jaime himself doesn’t see his own condition as ending up in the damsel’s position as demeaning nor has any problem seeing brienne as someone who can and will do what most men would, and has no issue whatsoever with the idea of her protecting him, which is why I keep on saying that we’re in full on reverse gender-coded territory here and that jaime can’t give two fucks about it - he doesn’t, but because he’s gone outside gender norms when he was young and has no technical issue with the idea of women not being inferior and so on (and he also gives zero fucks about how you look, see tyrion), but at this point he doesn’t have the scope to see the entire situation and he has no idea of that nor that he might actually be having feelings when it comes to brienne because again, he’s spent all his life 100% convinced that he and c. are a package deal;

and count that we’re talking about a guy who romanticizes everything he touches to insane degrees - knighthood, his sister, his family and so on - and that when seeing that it’s not the case reacts seriously badly, *but* his relationship with brienne is pretty much devoid of it because when they met they didn’t like each other and he didn’t exactly put her on a pedestal, she earned it in his eyes same as he earned his place in her chart of people she actually admires/loves.

the rest is under the cut because this got long bye.

cersei:

I’ll try to keep this short and objective lest people decide I need to chill (*rolleyes*) but as you said, the thing is that again: cersei wants herself in a male body because she wishes she was born a guy so she could be in the position she yearns for ie tywin’s heir. period. jaime’s needs or personality or whatever matter zero to her but until he thinks they want the same thing then it’s all I’M NOT WHOLE WITHOUT HIM. except that (affc quotes):

"Fool. No one who wears a crown is ever safe." She looked about the hall. Mace Tyrell laughed amongst his knights. Lords Redwyne and Rowan were talking furtively. Ser Kevan sat brooding over his wine at the back of the hall, whilst Lancel whispered something to a septon. Senelle was moving down the table, filling the cups of the bride's cousins with wine as red as blood. Grand Maester Pycelle had fallen asleep. There is no one I can rely upon, not even Jaime, she realized grimly. I will need to sweep them all away and surround the king with mine own people.

"You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He's just a boy." She was tired of Jaime balking her. No one had ever balked her lord father. When Tywin Lannister spoke, men obeyed. When Cersei spoke, they felt free to counsel her, to contradict her, even refuse her. It is all because I am a woman. Because I cannot fight them with a sword. They gave Robert more respect than they give me, and Robert was a witless sot. She would not suffer it, especially not from Jaime. I need to rid myself of him, and soon. Once upon a time she had dreamt that the two of them might rule the Seven Kingdoms side by side, but Jaime had become more of a hindrance than a help.

like: the moment he tells her ‘cersei you’re fucking up’ and actually tries to counsel her, after he loses the hand, he becomes.... MORE OF A HINDRANCE THAN A HELP. like. I need to rid myself of him. that’s.... not exactly what you think of someone who’s your other half or should love no matter what. and as you pointed out, the moment he loses the hand she basically downgrades him because he can’t be the man she wants to be and who cares about what he needs or wants, that’s not even taken into consideration. and tbh in that moment cersei is being more pro-reinforcing gender roles than she’d like to think because the moment he loses the hand (which makes him her male counterpart too, and one who can defend her in time of need like no one else could) and shows that he has a personality that’s, surprise!, not hers, she has no use for him anymore. also counting that cersei is the incarnation of internalized misogyny the whole thing certainly doesn’t go in her favor. and she’s actually pissed off he doesn’t fill her cup and throws it at him while full of wine later but never mind that, the thing is that for how much she hates men for holding her down as a woman she does the exact same thing to anyone else she can get away with including jaime, and that’s not loving someone back regardless because they’re your other half which is what jaime desperately wants instead. like jaime’s entire system is built on the idea that he loves her but she loves him back, and when he finds out it’s not the case, well, friendly reminder he did burn that letter and is trying to put himself back on track;

also: count that she dreamed THEY’D RULE THE SEVEN KINGDOMS, but jaime could have ruled the seven kingdoms when he killed aerys and when ned went inside the room he basically went and said OH HEY HELLO YOU’RE JUDGING ME TOO BAD BUT YOU WANT THAT THRONE? YOU CAN 100% HAVE IT BYE. like. it’s her dream. it was never his and she doesn’t even realize that, which says all about how much she’s aware of his emotional needs but nvm that.

brienne:

this one is the most complicated to unpack imo but that’s because brienne is in the sort-of-unique position of being the only one in between the two of them who manages to go past gender roles completely but actually doesn’t necessarily relish it;

as in: a lot of people assume that brienne wants to be a knight because SHE WANTS TO DO MEN THINGS but no, brienne wants to be a knight because a) it’s the job that better suits her built, b) it allows her to not being stuck at home in a role she hates surrounded by people who make her feel inadequate, c) it fits with her ideas about honor and allows her to have a chance at good things. as in, her key quote in acok was:

"Because it will not last," Catelyn answered, sadly. "Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.""Lady Catelyn, you are wrong." Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor. "Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining."Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. She did not have the heart to say it.

now, this is basically telling you black on white that brienne would rather live in a song where the sun is always shining, if you die it’s okay because people will remember you, the knights are never not gallant (like the ones that she had to fight off all her life), the maids are beautiful (like she’s not) and everything is always better than in real life, and in this sense meeting jaime basically strips that from her but not enough. in the sense that he makes her realize that reality and songs don’t go well together, but it doesn’t mean she won’t keep trying to behave the way a proper knight should, which is what she does through all of affc;

but brienne also fell for renly when they danced together (DANCING ie what ladies do) and she was wearing a dress and he was basically nice to her while letting her be feminine for once, brienne admires cat for having a woman’s strength and brienne is entirely down with protecting also women along the road and so on, so like... brienne doesn’t hate feminine things, she just doesn’t partake in them because a) she’s better at being a knight which is sadly a man’s job in westeros, b) everyone made fun of her whenever she tried which then added to her overall self-esteem issues;

now, brienne’s basically going around westeros risking her neck to do knightly things even when as a woman it’s 100% more difficult than it’d be if she were a man and taking on that role, but when she wants to weep on jaime’s shoulder she’s basically saying she wants to be vulnerable with him like the soft helpless maidens she’s not like, and guess what, he did that with her when he told her about aerys pretty much, but again, brienne has no preconceived notion of gender roles blocking her because she doesn’t hate the female-coded ones but has taken on the male-coded ones her entire life because she either had to or felt called to or felt more at ease with them;

so like, jaime gives zero shits that she’s defying them and that makes him look even better/more appealing to her because he’s the only man who took her seriously *for real*/for herself and not for how useful she could be. also, as much as some people would like to say she’s not brienne, being a woman into guys, definitely noticed that he’s attractive (the white cloak becomes you + half a corpse and half a god, HMMM) and like, of course she’s into him, but the thing is that on one side she’s bent on being his knight because he trusted her with it and she swore to protect him (before he sent her off), on the other she sees him as the only male candidate who - having come back for her in the bear pit - she could allow herself to be feminine/vulnerable with because that was the only time in her life she actually was the damsel and not the knight.........and he did it without the hand, so the thing is that to brienne he was the knight in not so shining armor (or armor, period), when he jumped into the bear pit without a weapon or anything else to save her life after coming back for her which no one has ever done before, actually until then she has fought off everyone for herself (ronnet connington/hyle and the other guys). so like.. to brienne, his most heroic moment is when he tries to save her without the hand, so she couldn’t link that loss to his supposed lack of masculinity or skills or heroism because he didn’t need that hand to save her;

also I would like to point out that it’s fairly telling that in affc on one side he punches in the teeth the guy that ruined her self-esteem for good and disrespected her so much that when she has the fever nightmare she sees him and wishes jaime was there and would come back for her, while on the other she kills (and fairly bloodily/not gallantly) both timeon and shagwell (who btw had been especially creepy to jaime in his asos povs) thinking that she’s doing it *for* jaime as well and of course none of them knows what the other is doing in this sense. but like, brienne’s literally going knight in shining armor on him to the point where she’s willing to die for him (and that’s why I’m 100% convinced she kills LS to save him doing also the aerys parallel) and she has no issues with that because that’s what she’s good at.... same as he has no issues with it because he 100% accepted that she can do that job and has done it for him better than most people would have. and at the same time she also sees him as someone who would or might let her be also soft and helpless while he sees her as *gentler* than his sister and trusted her with his most well-guarded secret after she literally kept him alive when he was sure he wouldn’t make it. and the hand, to her, matters absolutely nothing.

like, that is why I think that jb is a case of continuous gender role reversal in which he’s coded as the DID 90% of the time and she’s coded as his knight 90% of the time but switch places for that other 10% of the time to a point where they’re basically well outside gender roles both in westeros terms and modern terms (tbqh that too) but it works perfectly for them. like, the point with cersei is that, for as much as she thinks she’s not, she’s *completely* stuck into the westeros gender roles structure and can’t get out or maneuver around it the way cat did or genna did or other women try to because she wants to have the same power men have without beating around the bush and will stick to it and cares for having power more than anything else and works for that. on the other side brienne has been outside gender roles all her life and can’t give two fucks about it even if she suffers for being denied her feminine side, and jaime has seen enough to know that gender roles are bullshit and women aren’t lesser than he is and also mostly wants to have his emotional needs met which he hasn’t had since forever. which is why jb matches perfectly in that sense, because he wouldn’t mind being with someone outside gender roles who gets him and she needs someone who’ll have her exactly the way she is and be into her regardless of her look or her working outside the norms and who would let her also be soft and helpless if she needed it. and that works for them because they could and would and have been that person already, except that they haven’t quite realized it because they’re two assholes who are shit at understanding their own feelings. and that is also why cersei and jaime post hand-loss can’t work, because she needs someone who’s her and looks like her and wants what she wants and jaime does not and never has.

/peace