#Pro sasuke

[please-read-the-manga]

I know this is an older post (and I agree with all of it), but I wanted to share something I read a while back that really changed my perception on this topic/the way I personally go about rationalizing/understanding why so much of what occurs with the Uchiha feels unsatisfying.

Here's a link to the thread (lots of cool opinions/thoughts are expressed on it), but I'll try to crudely summarize what resonated the most with me. "Kishimoto's Writing On the Uchiha is Unironically A Good Example of Real Life Pro-Genocide Propaganda" by u/LivingwithStupidity.

To save space, thoughts under the cut:

Outside of our major characters (who all, to some degree, largely play antagonistic roles ie. Madara, Obito, Itachi, Sasuke, even Fugaku), the Uchiha rarely exist outside of the context of the massacre and even then, they are largely voiceless and nameless. This dehumanizes them in the narrative and robs them of individuality, especially as time progresses within the series. We naturally forget, for example, about the sweet old Uchiha aunty that runs a clan store in Sasuke's memories because she's never shown or brought up again. Outside of some hints in Sasuke's initial memories of the event that do not get repeated, we're not shown different generations of characters remembering their fallen Uchiha comrades/school friends, during later flashbacks to past wars we're not shown different Uchiha clan members fighting in the background (even though they were major participants who gave their lives in battle/on behalf of the village and operated as a founding clan - the only exception to this is Kagami and he is notably used as an exception to 'typical' Uchiha), we're not shown academy teachers having to redo their class rosters because all of their young Uchiha students were murdered, we're not shown any characters looking at empty shop stalls that used to be manned by noncombatant Uchiha characters and commenting on that loss of life/what it means to the village, etc. The rest of the in-universe world moves on and none of our major characters really call back into focus the humanity that was indiscriminately annihilated through the massacre - it laps at the surface through Sasuke's character/actions, but outside of its first introduction, it's never (imo) that explicit again. The closest we get to a proper callback to callous loss of life is Sasuke's reaction to Danzo's arm where it's revealed he violated and mutilated Uchiha bodies... but even this, I fear, is a bit too subtle for some people and it gets overlooked. Later, when Sasuke goes on to rightfully call out Konoha's crimes he specifically mentions his mother, father, and brother - and, again, I don't think this is enough to remind some readers of the sheer gravity of the tragedy at play here. Maybe even just one more line here, that reminded the reader innocent children, the infirmed, and noncombatants were murdered in their beds too, would have gone a long way... but the narrative (pointedly, in my opinion) doesn't take that necessary step. The loss of life isn't felt as vividly as it should be and I think it gives many readers license to dismiss Sasuke's grief and mission as 'unwarranted' (and it inspires the braindead 'well so-and-so suffered too/lost xyz and they didn't react like that' arguments when this tragedy, if you're capable of deeper analysis, is on a completely different scale/underscores an extremely unique injustice that is personal to Sasuke). There is a weight applied to Itachi's crimes when they're being discussed, but the critical human piece seems to be missing (imo) - hundreds of families massacred in one night is replaced all too simply with 'the clan' and I think the impact of the former gets handwaved by the phrasing of the latter.

The faulty eugenics arguments also serve as a simplistic 'see-I-told-you-so' that satisfies far too many and seems to justify, in their eyes, the complete destruction of the Uchiha bloodline and culture. Personally, if I can get a little 'real-world' here, I wonder if this is partially a symptom of poor education on genocide/the history of genocide. To me, Tobirama's unproven, disingenuous presentation on 'Uchiha genes' just reeks of 'Der Untermensch' propaganda and I think some people are far too generous in granting allowances for his very obviously pointed hatred and bias against this clan of people, especially when his direct actions as a person in power helped give rise to the eventual elimination of the Uchiha. For many people, this is all they need to know to now wipe their hands of this 'debate', call Sasuke 'crazy' and an 'edgy emo worked up over nothing' and point to this hateful, whacko eugenicist character that claims the sharingan makes 'these people' crazy so, of course, they 'self-destructed' (even if that was not the truth), of course, they're 'all bad and not worthy of Sasuke's efforts to preserve their memory/bring them justice', etc. Again, this works hand-in-hand with the previous point where we are pointedly not reminded that babies, children and everyday people without the sharingan, the elderly/infirmed, anyone who maybe had a dissenting opinion on this alleged coup - all of them - were lumped together on the basis of their 'genetic disposition and biological deficiencies' and thereby slaughtered without remorse. Now certain people can comfortably read pages upon pages of Itachi wank and be content with the knowledge that what Itachi did was justified/for the best because, well, the Uchiha are all nut-jobs. Yep, every single one. It's in their blood... just round 'em up and kill 'em. Right? These takes are so disgusting and continue to persistent in this fandom.

Finally, as mentioned in this thread already, Itachi never comes full circle to acknowledge his own victimhood at the hands of the village nor does he express any direct regret of his actions against his kin. He does regret, partially, how he handled Sasuke (and imo even that gets less focus than I frankly feel it deserves within these discussions - not only did Itachi repeatedly torture and try to force his brother onto a path that suited Itachi/Itachi's whims he was also prepared to BRAINWASH his younger brother and, again, force him to serve the state regardless of Sasuke's own freewill/agency), but Itachi never outright states that he regrets the massacre specifically (just that things could have been different) nor does he draw his own conclusions about the village's failures and how he was absolutely groomed and victimized by Konoha's violent rhetoric + the greater shinobi system (particularly when Sasuke is trying to wrap his own head around this mess of contradictions). I mean, the weight of that is enormous and I think it's a disservice to both Sasuke and Itachi to not explore the implications of that. Editing to add (I had it in the tags, but I should probably put it here): I do think Itachi felt guilt, even if it wasn't completely articulated, and that is why he manipulated Sasuke into killing him, but the major problem (for myself and many) remains that to the very end he died proudly 'Itachi of Konoha' even though Konoha inexcusably harmed him, his beloved younger brother, and his entire family. Itachi acknowledging, in some way, that the village is harmful but there should be some way of fixing that (ie. inspiring Sasuke to contemplate how that could be/what that looks like) would have added some needed complexity to discourse centering on the harm of the shinobi world/what happens going forward. I'm aware there are different interpretations on Itachi's regret, I go back and forth on these interpretations.

All this to say, I would have loved to see more flashbacks with Sasuke exploring his relationship to his mother/father/other Uchiha clan members. I would have loved to see more Uchiha merchants/laborers (or general noncombatants), cousins that Sasuke played with and met up with after his classes, elders that would sneak him treats, etc.

Their clan-specific jutsu and symbols have meaning, there is cultural significance to them that Sasuke may or may not be familiar with and, in either case, that matters. When Sasuke realizes he'll never be able to ask his father or elders what 'xyz' means in relation to their clan and his heritage, that such knowledge is gone forever, that matters. When Sasuke starts to forget certain faces, or can't bring himself to recall those times without being reminded of their bloody slaughter (as Itachi designed), that matters. Anyone who thinks about what Sasuke has endured for more than 5 minutes likely understands that these conflicting feelings/questions constantly loom around his character - how does someone who has been through something so awful, who has completely lost everything, how do they continue to endure? But the issue, I think, is that the narrative fails to adequately highlight these ideas in a way that would not only be 1.) satisfying to those of us who resonate with/appreciate the character but 2.) be capable of inspiring empathy in readers who maybe don't have the background/knowledge/experience to grapple with the weight of Sasuke's reality (again, without more explicit focus from the narrative itself).

Naruto gets to see his father and mother in two extremely meaningful moments - they're story highlights for a reason. Naruto's experience with neglect, isolation, and lack of identity have been hallmarks informing his character since the beginning. That he is given the opportunity to directly reconcile with these feelings, is great, it's satisfying - we see how this character has hurt and how they've grown and we're happy to see them receive some semblance of closure after the difficult journey they've undergone. So, I'll always lament that the same was never extended to Sasuke. To have an alternative viewpoint to Itachi's, could have greatly influenced Sasuke's calculus as he tried to parse his thoughts/feelings regarding insurmountable grief, isolation, and loss. I mean, imagine if Fugaku and Mikoto were edo tensei'd... What would they have said to their youngest son who had been tasked with this impossible mission of bringing justice to their clan in the face of the pure evil injustice that the Leaf did to them? Would he have been given peace? Would they have relieved him of his quest so that he no longer needed to suffer? Would he listen? Idk, man, we were able to waste so many chapters on random fodder characters during the war arc, we couldn't be bothered to interact with any other Uchiha?

But... if we did present other Uchiha for the purpose of exploring what closure looks like for Sasuke (even outside of Fugaku and Mikoto, though I think they could have worked too), then we would be humanizing them in a way that conflicts with what the narrative seems to want us to take away from the village's (and Itachi's) actions. We can't humanize the Uchiha without calling out this horrifying wrong the Leaf has exercised... especially if there will not be any retribution (and that could be a fascinating story to explore, a really realistic one too lol - but I don't personally think that was the narrative's intention).

It really does just feel like a missed opportunity/mishandling of 'what could have been' at the end of the day. We have hints to this greater, underexplored Uchiha lore that are fascinating - like the Uchiha relationship to the Nekobaa, the Nakano shrine the Uchiha faithfully tended for generations, and Sasuke and Itachi having their fight in what was notably an impressive clan structure far from the village.

This was a group of people connected through a deep, rich culture. They weren't 'nobodies', they weren't 'crazy and irredeemable' - they were people and the narrative would love for you to forget that.

On one level I feel like Sasuke’s idealization of Itachi towards the end is mostly a product of Kishimoto’s desire to have all the characters glorify Itachi and treat him like a saint so he can have his tragic plot twist hero character and no one questions how fucked up it is and so he can erase the rest of Sasuke’s clan and connections to his family but on the other I do think elements of it are realistic given how Obito kept telling Sasuke how much Itachi sacrificed for him and how his own sense of purpose and ideals and sense of self had already been tied to Itachi (antagonistically) for so long through trying to kill him, and how desperate he was to be loved in a way that connected him to his family. And he didn’t actually really believe that what Itachi did was right—if he had he wouldn’t have yelled at him for answers when he came back and he wouldn’t have chosen to oppose Konoha and the kages and essentially gone directly against everything Itachi stood for. I think the fact that on a very fundamental level he opposes the ideology that Itachi upheld but still feels a certain empathy for him and responsibility to him and contextualizes his worldview in reference to him does sort of make sense in a very sad way even if he would be completely justified in feeling nothing but hatred for him forever. I don’t think it was a good choice to have him refer to him in such heroic/valorizing terms though, and if that was going to be the case I wish we had seen a progression that didn’t result in concession to Konoha wherein he could accept that seeing Itachi in any kind of heroic light was deeply inaccurate and unhealthy

[sasukeuchiha-24]

🐍💜✨️

[sasuke-naruto]

70 ideias de Narusasu em 2024 | sasunaru, naruto, naruto e sasuke desenho

[motheryoon]

he’s eepy >_<

[justsasuke]

No offense to Itachi (jk full offense) but if Danzo had told Sasuke to kill his whole clan Sasuke would just have killed Danzo right there and ended the entire storyline prematurely.

[comradefleur]

ppl are literally just mad that sasuke had the gall to be a reactive genocide survivor, but y'all will never say it. he wasn't a perfect victim and that's the problem. y'all simply wanted him to be down with the fuckshit and that's it. y'all expected him to roll over and kiss ass. y'all wanted his trauma to affect him as minimally as possible. he could only be traumatised in an acceptable way. everytime i see someone saying he treated ppl badly or whatever the fuck y'all perceive his behaviour as im like...you're shocked the child who survived a literal massacre at the hands of his BROTHER is cold, untrusting, flighty and destructive? wowww 😭 like free my king all he ever did was yearn for a revolution & be a lil moody & bitchy (if that's what you wanna call it)

[sasucaty]

i am not a sasuke uchiha apologist because he has nothing to apologise for.

[moon-trees]

thinking about how sasuke and itachi both abandoned the village when they were 13. how sasuke was unintentionally following in his older brother's footsteps - how he was turning into what he perceived itachi to be. how he believed itachi betrayed, abandoned his family, and left the village to test his strength; to get stronger. how sasuke did the same by seeking power. how before they both left, itachi hurt his brother and sasuke hurt naruto, the ones they loved most. how neither of them could kill the other because they loved them too much. how they both acted and pretended that they hated the other. how they both actually loved each other endlessly. how-

[flowerobin]

friendly reminder that sasuke was the one to push teamwork with team 7, he is the one who risked his entire career just to feed naruto. he is so empathic and loving. ppl want to believe that he is selfish when his whole character is built from his love for his family and clan and like i’m not saying that everybody should love him because everyone has their own personal taste but? don’t lie?

[shyflowerhologram]

what actually happened: Sasuke defeated Orochimaru, released his prisoners and put end to his horrible experiments and torture, and is on his way to kill a dangerous criminal

how konoha paraphrased it:

ffs tsunade

[valleysofdolls]

istg i’ve never seen a valid reason used by someone explained why they hate sasuke.

90% of the time it’s basically them saying he didn’t react to trauma the way they wanted him to (or doing trauma olympics using naruto, gaara, kakashi, etc as examples of “thEIr TrAUmA DiDN’t TUrN thEm iNtO aSSHOLes”)

5% is again, using very valid trauma from a 7 year old witnessing the death of their entire clan by their brother and being forced to relive it for 3 days, as a way to say he’s “too edgy and emo”

and the other 5% is used by shippers (mainly SS), shaming him for not reciprocating feelings he never felt for the other character

[madaras-tits]

Listen, I really love characters like Obito and Madara as they are, but can we please talk about how Kishimoto has been consistently incapable of writing a character that doesn't like the leaf village without instantly making them irredeemable or wrong in some way, shape or form?

It feels like Kishimoto is trying to make Konoha seem like the good guys, by making everyone who criticizes konoha an absolute nut case. This doesn't only apply to Obito and Madara, this also applies to characters like Pain and Sasuke. It's not like any of these character's criticisms of Konoha are invalid; it's more that people don't look at that stuff when it's followed by a myriad of war crimes, and I will not pretend like this wasn't intentional on Kishimoto's part.

(by the way, I think the reason why Kishimoto tries to defend konoha and the shinobi system so much towards the end of shippuden, is because Kishimoto set himself up for failure by writing a heroic protagonist that wants to become the leader of a village that is revealed to be more and more corrupt as the series goes on, but doesn't want to betray the original story line of naruto wanting to become the hokage and soforth starts backtracking to make naruto wanting to become hokage justifiable again) this is a story for a another post))

[sasukeuchiha-24]

Sasuke | Itachi | Madara | Kakash

[sasuke-naruto]

[motheryoon]

two bad bitches