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twdmusicboxmystery · 5 years ago

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Acorn Symbolism: Romance, Promises, and Peter Pan!

Morning Everyone! Sorry it’s taken me so long to get this posted. As I keep saying, cray week. So, I said before that I thought they represented romantic love And I stand by that. For one thing, there are both a male and female component in the germination of acorn seeds. Hence, the romantic love symbol.

But let me mention a few other important acorn references as well.

@frangipanilove pointed out Daryl’s line to Carol last season about Ezekiel being “corny.” A play on the word acorn, perhaps? Now, maybe that’s a silly word play, but given the Serious/Sirius references and “Del Arno Foods,” it’s obvious that the TWD writers don’t mind silly word plays.

Now, @frangipanilove is working on a “nut” theory that will probably be much more comprehensive than this one. She has other “corn” references that are specifically around Ezekiel. I’ll leave that to her. But I suppose you could argue that this is a Carzekiel thing, rather than a Bethyl thing.

Or is it?

I would argue that it might simply be…a romantic love thing. After all, people in love tend to wax a little corny, right?

But there’s something else @wdway thought of that kinda proves the acorn reference is tied to Beth. I’d completely forgotten about this acorn reference in the show, so kudos to her for her awesome memory.

Do you remember there being acorns in the show before? Think about it for a minute. I will say it’s pretty subtle.

Okay, so take a stroll down memory lane to 5x11, The Distance. That’s two episodes after Coda and the one directly after 5x10, where the music box woke up. TF brings Aaron into the barn, Rick knocks him out, and they spend the episode trying to figure out whether he’s trustworthy or not, and also driving to Alexandria for the first time.

At one point, Rick sends everyone out of the barn to hide in various places and keep watch in case Aaron is part of a larger group that might be a threat to them. Then Judith starts crying because she’s hungry, and Aaron offers the applesauce in his bag, right?

But just before that, Rick tries to mash up acorns for her to eat. Voila! Acorn reference!

Why is that important? Because this scene has almost every major TD symbol in it, sitting in that barn. We have the flare gun (fire), a bottle of water with "Greendale springs” written on it, the music box itself, bullets, toilet paper, the applesauce, and even a dog reference (Fido) on top of the applesauce jar.

And this is the barn from 5x10, outside of which the music box has just awakened.

So, the acorns are most definitely a Beth reference.

Where do we take it from there? I’m not sure. I do think it’s significant that we saw acorns around Aaron right after the music box woke up, and we’re seeing them again now, right when something is happening with Aaron and the Whisperers. To me, that says Beth is about to appear.

Also, I won’t go into all the details now, but 5x11, The Distance, is another episode you should go back and watch if you can. There are SO many amazing references in that episode that we had no way of identifying the first time through. Eugene makes a “copulating dogs” reference. Rosita says, “we’re halfway there,” which I can’t help but see as S5 being half way to S10, suggesting the “dog” will return in S10. Tons of stuff like that all through it. Go watch! 😝

If you look up acorn symbolism, they can represent strength, much like the oak tree (which I’ll talk about in a minute). But that could also represent Beth’s strength. They can tell the future, so yes, they definitely portend something Daryl’s future, and are kind of the ultimate foreshadowing symbol. They suggest looking deep within ourselves (Daryl feelings for Beth) and that if something is nurtured in the right way, it can become powerful. Again, Beth nurtured Daryl like no one ever has.

@frangipanilove and I researched the phrase Carol uses, “double capper.” It doesn’t seem to be a real thing. I just figured it was slang, but it’s not coming up in online searches as even that. So I don’t think it means anything by itself. It’s just something mean to draw our attention to the acorn and its symbolism.

Also, the “double” part (2) might represent that we’ve hit the second phase. This hearkens back to retellings and the fact that carrots take two seasons to grow into maturity. It’s something I haven’t mentioned for a while, but we always figured there would be, symbolically, two stages or two times around for Beth and Daryl. The first was S4/S5, and they, as characters, hadn’t matured all the way at that point. We always saw it as Beth returning as stronger, more mature in her character and survival skills, etc. But it’s true of Daryl as well, at least emotionally. This is something I have touched on recently, about how he does understand his own feelings now and will be able to communicate them. So again, the “double” part might represent that we’ve entered phase 2, which is just a fancy way of saying we’re in the part where Beth will return.

Oak Trees

Let’s talk about oak trees, which produce acorns. You might even call acorns the offspring of the oak tree.

Sometimes it’s hard to tell what kind of trees we’re seeing, because we don’t get close up shots of the leaves. But we think all the trees in Fear, on which we’ve seen ladders painted, and Alicia is now painting Phoenixes, are oak trees. (Ladder Theory, Phoenix Theory).

We also talked about the tree in the opening credits—the one the plate glass windows hang from—and whether it might be an oak or not. We also looked up biblical symbolism because we all know biblical symbols are big in TWD, and they’re a big deal in the bible as well.

There are several cases of the holy men of the bible (including Abraham, Jacob, and Joshua) making sacred vows under oak trees. Sometimes they bury things in token of these oaths. Jacob’s is very significant, especially as it is entangled with the story of Jacob’s ladder, and remember that in FTWD, we’ve seen ladders painted on oak trees.

One story that stood out to me was that of Joshua. Reading it, I became convinced that the tree we see in the opening credits is, indeed, an oak tree. Let me explain.

In the story, Joshua utters the famous line, “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” He then asks if the people will do the same. They make a solemn oath to always serve the Lord, and they do it under an oak tree. Joshua puts a rock under the tree (which represents Christ, btw) and says if they break their promise, the rock will testify against them in judgement.

So, the oak tree = a solemn promise. It occurred to me that’s pretty much what Rick did under the tree with the plate glass pictures hanging on it at the end of S8. He made an oath to honor Carl’s last wishes and not kill Negan. (“My mercy overcame my wrath.) And if that was an oak, then the one in the opening credits must be as well. (Bc of the plate glass pictures.)

And the more I think about it, the more significant that becomes. I don’t want to go into all the details of this today (because this post is about acorns), but I’ve said before that I think Negan will lead to Beth in some way (hence all the bats we saw around her). And the only reason Negan is still alive is because of Rick’s “oath” to let him live in order to honor Carl’s last wishes.

Remember the Phoenix near Carl at his death? (Alicia is painting phoenixes on trees in FTWD.) Well, if Carl hadn’t died, I absolutely think Rick would have simply executed him at the end of AOW. And if Negan is as instrumental in Beth’s return as I think he’ll be, then that’s super important. You could argue that but for Carl’s death, Beth wouldn’t have ever returned. Which explains the phoenix we saw just before Carl’s death.

Also, these new opening credits that start and kind of center around the oak tree began in S9, after AOW ended. Which says to me that Rick’s oath (keeping Negan alive, etc) is what’s driving this part of the story, now. So, this really is all beautifully and intricately connected.

And how do we go from the oath under the oak tree to an acorn symbol? How should we interpret that?

Well, this may become more specific as we learn more, but for now, here’s how I think of it. Just as the acorn is the offspring—or offshoot, if you will—of the oak tree, so Beth’s return (and Daryl’s happiness) will be a result or offshoot of Carl’s death and Rick’s oath.

Peter Pan:

All right, I’m going to switch gears and talk about one more possibility for this acorn reference that the lovely @weapon13whitefang.

She said between the acorn in this scene with Carol and Daryl, and the “kiss” reference, she was immediately reminded of Peter Pan. In Peter Pan, there are tokens of kisses exchanged. Like thimbles. Peter didn’t know what a kiss was, so Wendy gave him a thimble, which was a token of a kiss.

In return, Peter actually gives Wendy an acorn button. Now, technically, this is not an actual acorn (though many PP interpretations use actual acorns). Rather this was a term for a button made of wood, which in slang, was known as an “acorn button.” (Source) In symbol of their friendship, Peter and Wendy wore their gifts for one another around their necks on necklaces. Wendy’s acorn button even saved her life when the Lost Boys (on Tinkerbell’s angry lie) shot her out of the sky. The button stopped the arrow from piercing her heart and killing her.

This has SO many promising implications.

But first thing’s first. My first thought was about what this meant for the question of romance. You all know I don’t think this signifies romance between Carol and Daryl—I know it doesn’t—but I need to be able to explain why.

So, Wendy and Peter exchanged tokens, much like Carol giving Daryl an acorn in this past episode. The question is, was there ever romance between Wendy and Peter?

Meh…a little bit. Wendy was definitely crushing on Peter when she first met him, though it was as much the prospect of adventure as anything else. (Which might have also been true of Carol early on, especially as Daryl helped her search for Sophia.)

But think about it in the long term. Things don’t work out romantically between Wendy and Peter. Wendy leaves Neverland, grows up, gets married and has kids, where Peter doesn’t. They always have a deep and abiding friendship—and even love—for one another. They wear their token necklaces for decades after their adventures together. But romance? No, it’s not really part of the story.

In fact, if you want to get REALLY detailed, why did Wendy first become disillusioned with Neverland? Because she came to understand that Peter brought her there, not as a girlfriend or companion, but to be a MOTHER to the Lost Boys. (Daryl and Carol have a mother/son relationship, as confirmed by Norman in S7.)

You could also argue that Carol finally putting the tragedy of Sophia behind her and marrying Ezekiel and finding happiness represents Wendy moving on from Neverland and getting married and having kids. Daryl is still Peter Pan in Neverland who’s never sustained a real relationship before. Of course, we think he will, when Beth returns. But for now, the Peter and Wendy analogy is very apt.

And it opens up a lot of possibilities for me. I’m super intrigued as to what will happen with this acorn. He put it in the pocket of his vest. Will it save his life? Deflect a bullet or something? Or is this less literal than that? If it represents Beth or his relationship with her, maybe it foreshadows that she’ll save his life in some way. (Something we’ve all theorized about for a LONG time.)

I also think it’s interesting that Wendy was flying when she was shot out of the sky and the acorn button saved her. They even called her the Wendy-Bird. Now, granted, in this analogy, Carol, more than Beth is Wendy. But still.

1) We saw a plane crash this past season on FTWD, and we’ve seen several helicopter crashes, including one on the roof of Big Spot in 4x01 (Beth) and one when Merle returned in 3x01 (resurrection of character).

These are representations of birds falling out of the sky. You MIGHT even be able to lump the satellite in with that. I don’t know if satellites are ever referred to as birds, but it did fall out of the sky, after all.

2) How many birds have been used around Beth as symbolism? Blue Heron. Yellow Wagtail. Phoenix. Songbird.

3) And of course there’s a major precedent for the writers using children’s stories as symbolic templates in the show. The Wizard of Oz. Little Red Riding Hood. The Little Prince (FTWD). Why not Peter Pan?

So yeah. I gotta stop now, but let’s just say I’m still loving the acorn symbol and the acorn scene. They portend great things for TD and Bethyl. 🎉

Which acorn interpretation is your favorite and why?

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #beth is almost here #bethyl

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vahanians · 2 years ago

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1 2 4 and 17 for the book ask

swag thank u for asking 😭😭

1) book i’ve reread the most times: probably order of the phoenix but by now middlegame HAS to be close

2) top 5 books of all time: SCREAMS this is so difficult um okay. this isn’t in any particular order but i would say middlegame, the welcome to bordertown anthology, order of the phoenix, uhhhh the thief lord by cornelia funke and its a tie between dragon wing and fire sea from the death gate cycle

4) bookstore browsing sections: fantasy/scifi and i’ll usually hit up the history section to see if there’s a copy of byzantium by judith herrin

17) top 5 kids books: i know this says books not series but just bear with me lol chronicles of narnia obviously, the inkheart trilogy by cornelia funke, the rowan of rin series by emily rodda, the harry potter series of course, and the looking glass wars trilogy by frank beddor

the erec rex series by kaza kingsley is a close 6th btw <3

#answers #as you can see i love fantasy and fantasy only

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twdmusicboxmystery · 7 years ago

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Carl/Beth Entanglement Details: S4 Vs. S8

Okay, so here’s what I want to talk about today. In the past few days, I’ve posted both of these memes, and I’ve been promising a Carl/Beth post. (Btw, the Carl one has already gotten more than double the likes on IG that my pics usually get. I know that’s because of Carl’s bite, but still. People are obviously connecting with this.

I was actually going to do this post before the MSF aired, and I just didn’t get around to it. Now I’m kind of glad I didn’t. Now with confirmation of Carl’s bite, it’ll just be a little more concrete. I want to remind everyone of some early intersections between Carl and Beth symbolism, so it’s a little more obvious that Gimple always planned it that way, and that Beth has to come on the heels of Carl’s death. Here we go:

I originally wanted to talk about the parallels between the train tracks sites from the second edit. I’m going to change it a bit and talk more about Carl than Daryl. By the way, if you haven’t read my “Beth Greene was Never Gimple’s Sheriff” post, I’d advise you to do so. This will make a lot more sense if you have that as background.

So let’s talk about the structure of S4. I’ve already talked a lot about how the structure of various episodes in S4 foreshadowed future events but I’m going to talk about the overall structure of episodes. In 4x08, the prison went down, right? Remember that there were a ton of callbacks in 8x08 to the loss of the prison in 4x08. So if the two seasons are being paralleled, the two MSFs line up pretty well. S4 = loss of prison. It’s burned down. S5 = loss of Alexandria. It’s burnt down/blown up.

Then everyone was separated into small groups. Rick and Carl, later joined by Michonne were one. Beth and Daryl another. Tyreese and the girls, which Carl joins fairly quickly. And then Maggie/Sasha/Tyreese. Things are a little different here, but I would like to point out that that is the start of @thegloriouscollectorlady’s 4 Arcs for 4 Communities theory. She theorized that the groups would = living situations/leadership in the future, and she was right. (Mostly. Not all of it, especially Daryl’s, has been confirmed yet, but I believe it will be.) So Rick/Carl/Michonne = Alexandria. Carol = Kingdom. Maggie = Hilltop. We had a forth group in Glenn/Tara who were joined by Abe/Rosita and Eugene. We have a 4th group now in Aaron and Eugene, though neither of them were in S4 to be paralleled with. The odd one out is really Beth and Daryl, who obviously aren’t running a community on their own, but may at one point.

So then we have episode 4x09, from which the top picture, this one,

was taken. (Ignore the arrows; they’re from a different meta and I was too lazy to retake the screenshot. ;D) Now, the reason I’m bringing this up is that the bottom picture was something they focused on in 8x06. In fact, Daryl rode past it on his bike, and I felt like it was a callback to S4.

So Rick and Carl leave the prison, and there is some interesting symbolism in the first place they go (pickles) but I want to focus on the house they stay in, because we have two major sequences that both foreshadow Beth’s arc.

The first is Rick. He lies down to sleep and falls into a semi-comatose state. Really, his body is just exhausted from the fight with the Gov, and he sleeps for more than 24 hours. But it’s kinda like he’s in a coma for a time, and Carl really can’t wake him up. Then we even have a scene at night where Carl things Rick has died and turned because his breathing is so ragged. Carl tries to shoot him, but doesn’t. (And thank goodness, because Rick isn’t really dead.) But the point is that Rick is in a coma and no one can wake him. At one point, TF (just Carl in this case) thinks he’s turned, even though he hasn’t. And specifically does NOT shoot him. All things we believe happened with Beth.

Oh, and Rick has a Beth-ish wound:

Then there’s Carl himself. He goes out on his own and leads walkers away from the house. This is where we get the visual parallel above to where he was bitten. So that sequence where he falls down and the walkers pile on him in S4 was a foreshadow of that happening in S8, only then he was actually bitten, where in S4 he obviously was not.

Then he goes into the pudding house. The first room he goes into, he sees a bird cage, much like the ones we saw in Beth’s cell in 4x01. It’s open, though, and there’s a dead bird on the floor beside it.

I have no doubt at all that that represents Beth, the song bird, being “killed” when she tries to escape her cage (Grady). And that by itself doesn’t suggest resurrection so much as just death.

However, as we go along, some interesting things start to happen. Carl opens a door and walker lunges at him. Carl falls onto his back but gets his gun and shoots the walker in the head. He shoots it in the EXACT same place Beth is shot: left side of the forehead. The walker face plants in front of him. For about a second and a half. Then it jumps back up again. Carl looks shocked that it didn’t die.

I mean, that alone should tell everyone that Beth’s wound wasn’t fatal. Or at the very least that it didn’t transect her brain stem to keep her from turning. If it was possible for that particular wound to do so, this walker wouldn’t have jumped back up. So it’s both proof that her injury was survivable AND a foreshadow of her living. Because right after Carl sees the dead bird and the cage, he sees a walker jump back up after sustaining the exact injury that Beth did.

Then he goes into the nautical-themed bedroom. This is where we get all kinds of crazy S7/S8 symbolism. Carl uses a lamp from the front yard to fight the walker (Lamp Theory). The nautical theme is ALL over the bedroom (Oceanside). There’s a yellow bat in the background (Negan). And of course in fighting the walker, he loses a shoe. (Lost shoes/feet theory). Oh, and after he gets out, we see a pair of yellow-handled scissors by his foot. (Yellow = escape/Beth’s yellow polo/opening credits flash; scissors = what she stabbed Dawn with.)

So all these crazy symbols come together in this scene. Then Carl eats his pudding and returns to Rick. The next day, Rick wakes up from his coma alive and well and everything is okay.

So here’s what I’m taking away from all this symbolism. First off, Carl could = Beth here, because he heads out on his own and has to save himself/take care of himself, which he does.

But as far as Carl’s arc is concerned, I feel like this represents him being the sheriff, being an adult, and making his own decisions. Remember they said twice that this was “his show.” This sequence in S4 represented his show. And only after the sequence that foreshadowed him being bitten did we see the dead song bird coupled with resurrection. (Meanwhile in 8x08, we saw a burning phoenix.)

On top of that, it wasn’t until after he escaped from the walker in the nautical room that Rick (also a parallel of Beth) awakened. (Of course in terms of the plot, we think she awakened a long time ago, but TF and the GA don’t know that. So I guess maybe it’s better to say that she’ll appear.)

So this foreshadows that sometime after Carl was bitten, at a time in the story when both Oceanside and Negan are in play, Beth will appear. And even more than that… remember yesterday I talked about the last stand at Hilltop, and most of us have thought for several weeks that Aaron and Enid will run into her at Oceanside. So I said maybe she would come with the Oceansiders to save TF’s bacon from Negan during the last stand. I almost feel like we have that foreshadowed here. The details, of course, could be very different than I’m thinking (they usually are) but think of it this way.

Carl (Beth proxy) defeats the walker inside the nautical/Oceanside room, suggesting victory will come from Oceanside. The bat in the room (Negan) is yellow, as are the scissors outside the door. Beth used scissors to stab Dawn, which ultimately led to her defeat, and Negan has lots of parallels to Dawn. At the very least, Negan is Daryl’s Dawn. (Is everyone following? I know this is a lot. Sorrynotsorry.) So I feel like the message here is that help will come from Oceanside specifically to defeat Negan, in the same way Dawn was defeated.

In fact, since Beth was kind of sacrificed to defeat Dawn and the system at Grady, and since Carl is the one in this scene, I think it shows that Carl in a way was sacrificed to defeat Negan. Gimple was super weird about what will happen next, but he keeps saying that Carl’s death will play into the story in 8b and people will understand why it was necessary.

So maybe it’s something about Siddiq? Such that if Carl hadn’t made that sacrifice and brought him into Alexandria, TF wouldn’t have won against Negan? (And keep in mind that in the books, Siddiq has ties to Oceanside, so it really could all work together.) I don’t know. Just spit balling here.

But are we all seeing how this was foreshadowed in S4? And this sequence was many episodes before 4x16 where the hat was actually placed on Beth’s head. As I said many weeks ago now, Carl was never Gimple’s sheriff. Beth was always going to be the future.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that the shot in 5x16 of Carl and Judith looking at the music box in front of the Morse Code poster makes a lot more sense now. We always just thought that was about Beth and the music box, but it was more than that. They could have shown anyone with the music box. Someone closer to Beth, like Maggie or Daryl, might have made more sense anyway. But they went with Carl, and that was obviously purposeful.

In the season where Beth disappeared, and TF found a new home, they showed the music box singing, I think, to symbolize that she was still out there. But once the “new home,” including the Morse Code poster, which we saw being destroyed as Rick and Negan fought, was gone, then Carl would die. He’s even wearing his hat in this scene. And the new sheriff (symbolized by the music box) would appear.

In a way, it makes more sense than ever that the music box disappeared after S5. The last time we saw it was during the last season Beth appeared in. That’s because this arc that’s been running ever since wasn’t about her and wasn’t something she would ever be a part of. This was TF at Alexandria. We probably won’t see the music box again until she reappears, and her time as sheriff begins.

So what does that mean for 8b? I’ll give you a few possibilities I’ve thought of. Keep in mind, this is all just conjecture and could very well turn out to be wrong.

Aside from the Oceansiders showing up with Beth to save the day, which I think may not happen until the season finale, I’m still hoping that we, the audience, will see her earlier than that.

I think 8x09 is a possibility, but I’m really on the fence over whether they’d have her return in the same episode in which Carl actually dies. That might get some hate from the audience if they feel like one character is being exchanged for another and Carl’s death isn’t getting the respect it deserves. So on the one hand, I would think they’d stay away from that. But on the other hand, some of the stuff Gimple has said suggests that maybe something about Carl’s death might actually usher in the change in the story in a way that the audience will like and connect with. So maybe we will see her in 8x09? I can see it going either way and honestly don’t know which is more likely.

Returning to what I said at the beginning about 4x08 and 8x08 lining up, the parallels with Carl and Rick happened right after, in 4x09, so that suggests maybe we will see her very soon. But on the other hand, predicting things like that has never worked out especially well for us. I don’t think Gimple always lines up episodes exactly. I think he purposely shies away from that so things aren’t predictable. 4x10 was Inmates, where we had Beth’s diary voice over, and a backward progression that definitely foreshadowed some things. (Details here)And then Bethyl happened in 4x12/13. So you see what I mean? It really could fall anywhere and almost every episode is a possibility.

One scenario that occurred to me is that perhaps they’ll parallel season 5. I would actually really love it if this scenario happened, but again, it’s just conjecture on my part. So in 5x08, Beth seemed to have died, but actually didn’t, right? So in that MSF, much like this one, we didn’t have any major character deaths. The death came in 509, with Tyreese. Similarly, Carl will die in 8x09. The thing about 5x09 is that Beth was in that episode as a part of Tyreese’s death hallucination. And that episode was so bizarre and abstract, with a ridiculous amount of foreshadowing and Beth symbolism in it. (Details here.)

So I was thinking that maybe in a similar fashion, all of 8x09 will be Carl in the throes of death, just as 5x09 was for Tyreese. But maybe instead of a hallucination, we’ll see flashbacks from the missing 17 days after Grady, and Beth will be in them? It would be an awesome parallel. And again, no idea if it will be this way. It might work out completely different, but I’m kind of hoping. If that WERE the case, Beth would be there, but we might not necessarily find out she’s alive. They would just be flashbacks.

(And I did draw a parallel between the slide show in 5x09 and Michonne’s line about it being Carl’s show. Just saying.)

So that made me consider that in 5x10, the music box woke up. If they were to parallel S5, maybe we’ll finally see her in ep 10. I’d never seriously considered ep 10 as a possibility. A finale or MSF just seemed more likely. But that would be super-interesting as far as the music box is concerned, wouldn’t it?

In short, I have no idea when she’ll appear, but I wanted to point out/reiterate some of these entanglements. As I’ve said many times now, these are things we noticed years ago, but just didn’t understand the full extent of what they meant. As the seasons pass and the foreshadowing is fulfilled, we can see that it was planned and foreshadowed this way from the beginning. Now all we have to do is sit back and wait.

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #beth is almost here

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twdmusicboxmystery · 7 years ago

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Daryl = Fire, Beth = Water

Morning Everybody! So with only a couple of days to go before the S8 Premiere (I'm totally staying cool over here.)

So the amazing @wdway has done it again. She came up with such an amazing insight this last week. In many ways, it's super-obvious and I don't know why no one has realized it before. But she's just a genius that way.

So we were talking about some of the S8 promo pics. They're the ones that have many of the characters in side profile and there are embers blowing around them.

I'm sure many people have tried to relate these to Beth both because we saw fire around her and Daryl in Still and because of Norman's famous analogy about her being Daryl's flame that burnt out.

I thought the same. Then @wdway said something really profound. She said, "I think Beth's symbol is actually more water than fire."

That makes so much sense! We've always equated Beth with fire because of Still. I think it was a fairly good assumption given…everything. But it was also kind of wrong.

Think of it this way. While both Beth and Daryl were working through emotional issues at the moonshine shack, and it WAS her idea to burn it down (another reason we equated her with the fire), the burning down of the shack was more about Daryl than it was about Beth. HE was the one who grew up in a place like that, not her. And they started the fire right after they talked about him staying who he is, not who he was. Getting away from his horrible past.

Since then, we've seen Daryl equated with fire a lot. And I think each time, it represents the same thing it represented in Still: him burning down his problems and leaving them behind so he can move forward.

Examples of Why Daryl = Fire:

He blew up the saviors in 6x09

He set the lake afire in Alexandria to get rid of the walker horde. Both of those were physical obstacles rather than emotional, but still. Daryl burnt them down.

We can even trace this to his childhood. As he told Carl in season 3 (just before finding Carol who was presumed dead, I might add) his mother died in a house fire in which she kinda burned herself down. She was consumed in it when Daryl was a small child.

Even the matches Sherry left him to escape the Sanctuary make more sense in light of this. Obviously tptb didn't want him to burn down the Sanctuary at that point in the story. They have other plans for it. But they still symbolically showed him using fire to move forward and work through his problems. (The imprisonment of the Sanctuary, in that case.)

Then there's the ashes. Ashes are what's left after the fire has burnt. Ashes are one of the most pure substances on earth because they've just been purified with fire. They're also the substance the phoenix rises from. Remember Daryl's, "we ain't ashes." That was before he lost Beth. Before he endured his trial-by-fire, as it were.

Now, understand I’m not saying that Beth won't use fire to…you know…escape places. I totally think she will. But thus far, we've seen Daryl equated with fire far more than her.

Let's talk examples of why Beth = water.

We saw water bottles around her in Still.

All the water/boat/Oceanside symbols we've equated with her. I don’t want to list them all. There’s been like a billion. Each time I've seen or pointed one out, I've simply thought it was a foreshadow of Oceanside. And I'm sure they all are. But it's deeper than that. Her SYMBOL is actually water, which is why Oceanside happens to be so fitting.

And it also works REALLY well with Beth and Daryl because they complement each other so well. Beth's water can douse his fire and make him more civil. (Like when he wanted to cover Len’s body with a tarp, for example.) Daryl's fire (him teaching her to survive and his determination to keep people alive, like Judith in S3) stokes her determination to survive.

It's all about balance. Beth is the water that balances Daryl. Without her, he could be consumed (*Consumed*) by his flames. We see him going off the rails without her. Such as when he decided to get revenge for Denise in 6b, which just led to more trouble and heartache. Glenn, Michonne and Rosita couldn't talk him out of that. Beth would have been able to, which is tragic in itself.

Norman has said that Daryl will go rogue in S8. We don't know what that means exactly, but it doesn't sound good. I think Daryl will be in the darkest place we've ever seen in him in S8, close to being consumed by his flames. Which will also mean that Carol's line to him in Consumed about how "everything now just consumes you," was a foreshadow for Daryl's future arc, after losing Beth.

So once @wdway and I started talking about this, we both totally geeked out and couldn't stop coming up with examples. I mean, once you realize this, the evidence just starts coming out of your ears. Check it out:

Christian symbolism has its roots in water. There's baptism, which is symbolic of death and resurrection by water. Several of Christ's miracles included water, such as turning water into wine (*coughs moonshine*), walking on the ocean, and calming the stormy sea.

With that last one, I can't help but think of this from S4:

In this scene, Hershel holds up a mug that says, "Java saves," which is also a (funny) Jesus reference.

@wdway also pointed out that after this, Hershel goes out into the woods to gather berries to make tea for those sick with the virus. Granted, he makes tea, not wine, but still. Berries and grapes are used to make wine. And Beth gathered grapes in Inmates. I've always wondered about the grapes because we really don't see them again. They're not a recurring symbol like strawberries for Beth, or pomegranates for Carol. We just saw them the one time. But grapes were used to make wine, so you can see how that might tie in. A couple episodes after gathering grapes, she and Daryl were drinking moonshine.

(And btw, the scene where Hershel gathers the buries includes a female walker with her leg caught in a bear trap. Just saying.)

We also talked about how this relates to the title of Still. Most people think Still is so named because of the moonshine still, and they're right. But it's more than that. There are three possible uses of the word "still."

It can be a noun, as in, the moonshine still.

It can mean, "continuing." As in, "we're still here." And even though neither Beth or Daryl say that in Still, it's a very heavy theme afterwards. Carol says it to Daryl. Beth says it to Carol (a variation) at Grady. Carol says a variation of it to Mary at Terminus. And Michonne has said it to Rick several times in S7.

The final definition of still is the opposite of motion. In other words, calm, or peace. I know this doesn't sound like it has anything to with water, but we were talking about Christ calming the sea. ("Peace, be still.") And I sincerely believe part of the reason for that title is that Beth brought Daryl peace. In a lifetime of fire, she calmed his flames.

And, now that I'm thinking about it… This is kinda twisted, but Creepy Wolf Dude said, "be still," to his victims before killing them. It always jumped out at me because of the title of 4x12. Leave it to TWD to give a Christian reference to a murderous villain, but they're still using biblical references. So the wolves are using Christian dialogue that has to do with water. And Beth's symbol = water. See why I think Beth and the wolves are still a thing?

In the show, we see fire extinguishers around Beth in Still especially. Apparently we also see a lot of hydrants around Daryl. (Not something I've ever paid attention to, but if others have seen them, it's definitely a thing.) To see the water around Daryl suggests Beth is always with him.

Then there's the fire truck. I've always known the fire truck was a purposeful symbol. I mean, that's a very conscious choice for the writers. I always figured it was because it's red, and I've related the water in it to Oceanside before. But what do you know? It's more than that. Fire trucks are specifically called to put out fires, aren't they?

It's also interesting that the fire truck ties Maggie, Rosita, and especially EUGENE, who's now at the Sanctuary, to Beth's story. (Remember, it disappeared along with Beth after Coda.)

Let's see, what else? Oh, we talked about the miracles of the bread and fishes, which happened by the sea. Christ blessed the fish and fed the multitude with very little. Tara ate fish by the Ocean.

Some other examples of Bethyl = Fire and Water.

I especially love this in light of Daryl starting the lake on fire at Alexandria. It was fire and water working together to defeat walkers and save TF and their home.

@wdway even points to the trailer for S8. We see a lot of fire and explosions around Daryl in the trailer. And what does he do before starting those fires? Drinks water. Kinda like he needs a little bit of Beth/water protection before he blows shit up.

And this is interesting because of discussion I had after the trailer came out. I can't remember who it was with (probably someone in my FB group) but it was suggested that maybe he's not drinking water. It kind of looks like a flask, so they wondered if he was drinking moonshine.

Even back then, I didn't think that was likely. We saw both Beth and Daryl refuse alcohol from other people when they were apart. I think it's kind of a theme that they only drink together.

So symbolically, I doubt he'd be drinking moonshine here. Plus, Daryl is really responsible about his drinking, as we saw in Still. ("Someone's gotta stand watch.") So I doubt he'd get drunk before getting on a motorcycle and having aim at stuff with a gun to start fires.

But it's just kind of interesting because obviously things are seeing Beth symbols in the trailer.

Another thing that's super interesting in light of this is Arsonist's Lullaby. I love that song. It's so haunting! And it's interesting because when it's played in 6b, we don't see much of Daryl. It focuses on Morgan, Michonne, and Rick. But we do also see Tara and Heath, which is also interesting.

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Anyway, the song says things like, "All you have is your fire." And "Don't you ever tame your demons, but always keep them on a leash." It also talks about the flames of childhood. It personifies Daryl more than just about anyone. Beth helps him keep his demons on a leash. Without her, they kinda run wild.

I could probably go on for hours, but I won't. The last thing I want to mention is Them. Pivotal Beth episode, when the music box woke up, yeah?

Notice how that whole episode was all about TF not having water. We even saw a dry river bed, and Abraham drinking booze rather than water. No water = no Beth. Then, when the storm came (also felling trees, btw), the music box woke up.

@wdway asked me about Aaron. He also brought TF water. The thing is, he's a big proxy for Beth in 5b. He talks about there being "good people," he deals with Daryl's surliness, where others won't. He spends a lot of time one on one with Daryl in the woods. He's the friend Daryl needed after losing Beth. And he brings TF water.

Okay, I'm gonna stop now. I know this is very sprawling. I actually do have more to say, but I’m going to give one other thing we talked about its own post. This is long enough as it is.

As I said, me and @wdway kind went wild with it. We couldn’t help ourselves. Not sorry, tho. ;D

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #bethyl

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