#Pandora Hades 2

[frosteee]

"Benevolent Lord Uncle Zeus" my arse - On Prometheus and Epimetheus and Pandora

I've been following the development of Hades 2's story and, like everyone, become absolutely infatuated by Prometheus (my GOD). It also got me thinking about his myth, and that of his brother Epimetheus and Pandora.

And, very VERY happily, it reunited me with a retelling of Pandora's Box that I haven't listened to since the early 2000s - a tape of several stories by Storyteller, of which Pandora's Box is one. It's wonderfully told, very immersive and emotional. I highly recommend a listen!

Anyway, in anticipation of Epimetheus's debut in the Hades series, I've been hyperfixating obsessing thinking about how his character might be interpreted.

[Mythology splurge ahead]

Epimetheus's name means "hindsight".

THE CREATION OF MANKIND

One version of the story goes that Zeus gave he and Prometheus the task of creating life on earth. Prometheus created mankind from clay, in the image of the gods, and Epimetheus created the animals. Epimetheus was also tasked with bestowing traits of the gods upon earth's creatures, to help them survive. So Epimetheus gave claws to one creature, scales another, and so on. But when he came to give a gift to mankind, he had no traits left to give them.

This was exactly as Zeus planned. Epimetheus did not have his brother's foresight, so he did not think to prepare for such an outcome. Zeus was satisfied with mankind's eternal dependence on the gods, weak despite being moulded in their divine image.

It was in this same spirit that he gave Prometheus the task of showing mortals how to properly sacrifice to the gods - in short, reserve the best parts for the gods and leave the offal for themselves - Prometheus defied him so that mankind would not suffer for the gods to stroke their egos.

After this incident, Zeus hid fire from humanity, so that they would be cold and hungry. And because Epimetheus had not given any traits from the gods, mankind was doomed to extinction. So Prometheus took it upon himself to steal fire back, as well as teach them on all kinds of subjects (mathematics, architecture, etc.) so they could advance and build civilisations.

And we all know how well Zeus took that.

TL;DR: Zeus sentenced Prometheus to daily, eternal torture because he did not let all humanity die like Zeus had condemned them to do, out of pure spite and ego.

Now back to Epimetheus. Many tellings of the myth of creation say it was his foolishness that caused everything to go wrong for mankind, as well as dooming his elder brother to his agonising fate.

But I don't personally see stupidity in his actions. Naivete, perhaps, in trusting Zeus to give him enough godly traits to bestow on all creatures, but then, what reason did he have at that point to think otherwise? He and Prometheus had sided with the gods in the war against the Titans. The Titan brothers did not live on Olympus, choosing to live on earth, but they visited and were on friendly terms. Should Epimetheus bear the blame for everything because he did not have the power to see the future? Again, Zeus chose Epimetheus specifically because he did not have that ability.

PANDORA

Then comes Pandora. Some time prior to her creation, before his final punishment, Prometheus had warned Epimetheus not to accept any gifts from the gods. He knew that Zeus was not yet done punishing humanity for his actions. After he was chained to the rock to be tortured for eternity, Epimetheus continued to live on earth among people.

Zeus ordered Haphaestus to create a woman from the earth, a "beautiful evil" whose descendents would punish humanity forever. After she was made, Athena and various other gods dressed her and gave her speech and other attributes before placing her on earth. She charmed any man she came upon. She took with her a jar containing "countless plagues" and evils. Her target was Epimetheus, and he accepted her and took her as his wife.

What could Epimetheus do? He knew what his brother had warned, but his brother was also the prime example of what happened to those who defied the gods. If Epimetheus rejected her, the gods could take the oppornity to make Prometheus's punishment even worse. And even if they chose to punish Epimetheus directly, the people his brother had made and loved would have no-one to champion them, and would likely be punished in his absence. He had stayed among men to help them like his brother had.

Epimetheus knew from hindsight - defiance meant suffering.

Unfortunately, compliance also meant suffering. Pandora had been made by the gods for the express purpose of punishing all mankind and ensuring their subservience. Despite Epimetheus's warnings, Pandora opens the box and releases the evil, while also allowing Hope to escape as well. Hesiod closes the tale with the moral "there is no way to escape the will of Zeus".

It's clear to me that Epimetheus was damned no matter what he did. The gods were set on punishing Prometheus's beloved people either way. It was more fitting to use his brother to do it, so they gave him Pandora, knowing he would refuse at his peril. Pandora opened the box because that is what she was made to do.

Hesiod may paint her as a wicked temptress, the woman who infected mankind to cause misery for generations, but she had just been born. She could only do what she was meant to do. She likely did not know what the box contained more than Epimetheus did, she was only compelled to open it. I'm sure Supergiant would agree that she was as much a pawn and victim of the gods machinations as her husband and brother-in-law.

That's another thing about this. Pre-Pandora, humans were composed entirely of men. There was no illness or hunger, everyone got along well, there was prosperity and wisdom, all thanks to Prometheus. It was a paradise because of Prometheus. Zeus made a woman specifically to destroy all of that, and ensure successive generations would be born into a corrupted world.

I somehow very much doubt Supergiant will integrate this part of the myth in their story, but regardless of the makeup of humanity at the time, it was paradise on earth, and the evils Pandora released upon them brought misery, pain and a death.

TORMENT

Epimetheus was set up to fail no matter what he did. His feelings on all that transpired can only be seen in some accounts, where he has another daughter named Metameleia, whose name means "regret of what has occurred".

The fact that he only had hindsight to work with only makes his tragedy worse. Looking back at what you could have done better is good if managed properly. But the human mind likes to ruminate on the past, and people are so often their own worst critics. Oftentimes hindsight distorts the past and we learn the wrong lessons, if any at all.

But how can one do better against the gods? No matter what Epimetheus learned, the gods were determined to get their way. His brother had paid a terrible price for tricking them to benefit humanity. Epimetheus tried to avoid disaster by appeasing them, but there is no way to escape the will of Zeus.

But despite being placed in an impossible position, made to lose no matter what, Epimetheus still feels regret. He believes it was his own choices, lacking the traits his brother had, that led to things turning out as they did. He blames himself for everything - his brother's fate, humanity's fate. Mankind was his brother's legacy, and it was their prosperity that made Prometheus's sacrifice meaningful, bearable. And under Epimetheus's watch, all of that was taken away.

In Epimetheus's mind, he took it away. His hindsight paints him as the ultimate fool, and he cannot forget it. If he had only done this...if he had only done that...

Wracked with guilt, Epimetheus is faced with the decay of humanity, Pandora's death. Whether he blames her at all or not, ultimately he blame himself most of all.

EPIMETHEUS IN HADES 2 (THE SPECULATION BEGINS)

So what next? Well, Heracles released Prometheus from his torture, allowing him to align with Chronos. Epimetheus would return to his brother's side carrying the weight of humanity's woes, a failure in every way. He failed his brother, he failed humanity.

Perhaps, in his younger years, Epimetheus was able to be carefree and forgetful because Prometheus was there to cover for him. Perhaps because his brother was wise, it was OK to be a fool once in a while, until it wasn't. But even if it had been forgetfulness and lack of preparation that made him neglect humanity, why was the price to pay so heavy?

Did humanity deserve to DIE because he forgot to check the number of gifts he had, did they deserve to DIE because his brother would not let them give their valuables to the gods, did they deserve to SUFFER AND DIE because Epimetheus, knowing how the gods punish defiance, accept the gift they gave him?

When Epimetheus does appear, I have little doubt he will be as handsome as his brother. They are, after all, twins, Epimetheus being the younger of the two. However, I imagine the psychological toll of everything he has endured, and continues to endure, would show upon him as well, as well as in his behaviour. Broken and desperate to make up for his past "failures".

Prometheus likely forsaw everything that was to happen. It seems he can see multiple versions of the future. But he himself states that while he does not know the "why" of his many premonitions.

He may bear resentment towards Epimetheus because of this, or perhaps, knowing his brother's good heart, and knowing the mercilessness of the gods, he would know why Epimetheus did what he did, without his little brother needing to say a word. Their relationship in present time may mirror Moros's feelings about the Fates: "Maybe they knew always that I would fail them, and loved me anyway".

This may only make Epimetheus feel worse rather than better. Perhaps he would want his brother to hate him as much as he hates himself. This could be a subplot between the two of them as the story progresses.

All he would want now is to atone, to help his brother in any way he can. All he has left is Hope, which Pandora released into the world to temper the evils. He has no belief in himself, only a desperate, obsessive desire to make up for his past passivity by fighting the gods head on, for his brother. Perhaps even by his brother's side. He has given himself entirely to his brother, and trusts his foresight. Perhaps he is the only one Prometheus entrusts his premonitions with, and whatever goals he has, Epimetheus knows.

Epimetheus created the animals, and gave them their special traits, so it would make sense for him to be dressed accordingly, and maybe have some animal friends to help him. Honestly, just thinking about that gives me all the fuzzy feelings.

I hope to see him soon, though I'll try not to get too caught up with my own imaginings. I'm sure whatever Supergiant do will be awesome, as always. Prometheus is already delivering.

Oh, and Zeus is a bastard.

[RAMBLE OVER, HAVE A GREAT DAY!]

[your-local-granny]

i feel physically ill i care abt her sm..

[cutesilyo]

you know how there was a running theme with the NPC encounters in hades? that sisyphus, eurydice, and patroclus were all involved in stories about being unable to escape death?

and its something thats explicitly discussed within hades itself, at least for sisyphus and eurydice. sisyphus had attempted to cheat death three times, one of the most notable being when he bound thanatos in chains. orpheus had found a way to bring eurydice back to life, but couldn't follow through with completing hades' challenge. achilles had a prophecy hanging over him during the war; die in glory at troy or live long unremembered. he chose the war and patroclus followed. they didn't survive. they are all different manifestations of the axiom zagreus is fighting against: that in hades, there is no escape.

so i was thinking. in the hades 2 playtest, we get dialogue from nemesis about how mortals had it better during kronos' time. we get dialogue from arachne too, about being distrustful toward the gods because of her curse.

i wonder if the running theme for the npcs in hades 2 will be people maligned by the gods in some shape or form.

arachne is already confirmed as the npc encounter for erebus. proud athena cursed her into being a spider. will we see victims of a love gone wrong in the next biome, like daphne perhaps? will we see those offered up for sacrifice just to appease the gods, such as andromeda or iphigenia? maybe those who were killed, perhaps unjustly so, because they dared fly too close to the heavens, like bellerophon or icarus? demigods that were cursed because of their birth, ala heracles? its long been a joke that the greek myths are just full of people suffering because of the incomprehensible acts of the gods. if hades 2 goes down this route, theres a lot of material to draw inspiration from.

and its an especially interesting direction because we know that its kronos waiting for us down the line. kronos, who ruled the golden age. when it comes to those wronged by the gods, you cant get much worse than being waged war against, your mountain stronghold so damaged from the attack that it loses height, and then being cut up into tiny pieces.

kronos, the crooked one. i bet he'd have a hell of a time trying to convince melinoe that the gods cant be trusted. and melinoe would be surrounded by all these narratives that would just prove his point.

just like how zagreus was in hades, who was surrounded by all these narratives about how death had no escape. and yet, his story is about how life and love bloom despite it. i cant wait to see what melinoe is fighting against now.

[therivercocytus]

“they arent gonna make her pandora yk how dusa turned out—“ but. but. but. the evidence

[jennabeevbe3]

This is actually a design of what I thought Pandora would look like in Hades before the Hades 2 test stream and we met Dora

Thought I’d share it

[babyrdie]

Dora!

It was already predictable that Dora was probably Pandora, but with that line of dialogue…

[greengreekeyes25]

I have a theory that Dora from Hades 2 was Pandora when she was alive, so I made up a design for her 👻

[baejax-the-great]

Been seeing theories for who is running the shop in Hades 2, so I thought I'd put my own out there.

It's Ms. (Pan)Dora and her box of horrors. Coin goes in, more fodder for the Goddess of Nightmares comes out.

[cartoonfanorwhatever]

Okay, I just tought about this and i don't know if anyone else thought of it but i want to put it out there before the game comes out so i can come back to it when/if i'm right.

So in the Hades 2 trailer see this little '2-faced' shade, which get called 'Dora'. And it *seems* like she'll take a skelly-type position in this game, probably not as target practice, but more in the way of being a friend to the protagonist who is more a 'normal' person (read: not an actual god or legendary hero).

And in Hades 1 (: the first), there are some hints that Skelly *was* actually a well known figure, the main theory for as far as i've come across being that he's Odysseus.

So, i started thinking; "what if it's the same for Dora, what if she's secretly a known character?" Then i tried to think of famous female mortal figures from greek myth, while simultaniously thinking (ADHD is weird like that) "Maybe there's a hint in her name."

And both things came together to probably the most famous mortal/non-god woman from greek myth.

PanDORA. Guys she's Pandora.

Okay maybe that's a bit too obvious to be correct. But hey, they had a character named 'Dusa' in the first game who definitely, absolutely was not Medusa wink, wink, nudge, nudge. So who knows?

Also, with this second game being more about the titans probably. It would make sense for Pandora to appear in the game because she's pretty closely related to that side of the mythology.

[nightapproaches]

Hehehehehehhwhheheheheheeheheheheheh

[ninadove]

By the way “Dora” HAS to be Pandora 100%

[prommytheus]

dora dora dora dora dora

[bi-hop]

Speculation for Hades II but Dora the Listless Shade might be Pandora which would be quite funny in a game about killing a Titan because her husband was the Titan of afterthought

[thatlesbiancrow]

lowkey shipping Dora with Moros 🫣

[childofearthandstarryheaven]

My biggest discontent with Hades 1 was that, because of the roguelike mechanic, nothing changes in the end. The Olympians' cruelty towards mankind was hinted, the Chthonic gods' cruelty towards human souls was shown, but nothing was done about it. No one can escape the status quo. The surface was always stuck in Demeter's genocidal winter. Sisyphus would forever be in Tartarus. Eurydice could only stay in Asphodel. etc. etc.

But Hades 2? Then the status quo is already great. Chronos destroyed Olympian authority long before Mel first embarked on her journey. Sisyphus and countless other souls are released. They are FREE. Meanwhile, genocidal rapists like Zeus and Poseidon are trapped on the mountain, unable to do anything to humanity ever again.

Mel can be an annoyance to Chronos and Prometheus, again and again, but she cannot fight the meta structure of the game itself. The siege is here, forever, just like Zeus and Hera's torturous marriage. Since now they are not able to torment the mortals out there, they can only torment each other. And Apollo.

There is nothing Mel can do. Mel cannot make the Olympians happy. Mel can belittle mortals, Prometheus and Chronos all she likes, but she cannot make the Olympians love each other, just like she cannot make Hecate her true mother.

As long as the basic roguelike gaming structure holds, neither Mel nor the Olympians could ever be free.

But Sisyphus is free. Prometheus is with Aetos, and both are happy. Though Chronos is clearly not happy about being beaten by his granddaughter again and again, he is at least no longer in pieces, which is still a tremendous improvement, and a permanent one nonetheless.

So, in a sense, Chronos and Prometheus has won already, while Mel is doomed by the game itself. She may have a character arc, she may be slapped in the face by Pandora's truth (mind you, Pandora is not bound by the roguelike mechanic, she is a NPC without encounter, if plot requires Pandora to break with Mel, Pandora can just leave the camp; but the player can only have Mel fights through the underworld or Olympus), she may change her outlook altogether. But her current goals? Death to Chronos, restoring the throne of Hades, and saving Olympus?

She'll never succeed. This is roguelike, not linear RPG.

But this also knits up the narrative beautifully. The answer to the question 'are we the baddies?' is 'yes'. The Olympians are baddies. Mel is a baddie for aiding these genocidal rapists.

Unlike Arachne, who didn't choose to become a spider, or Pandora, who didn't choose the jar, or even Odysseus, who could not choose Athena but could only be chosen, whenever Mel leaves camp to fight, she is knowingly choosing to fight for a bunch of murderous despots out of her own free will.

And her punishment is exactly the gaming mechanic itself, now and always.

[codenamethebird]

Ok here's a little (not really) analysis/theory post about Hades 2, because I'm obsessed. Its consumed all my thoughts. And I need to talk about a theme I think will (hopefully) be addressed as the game progresses.

Here's some examples of dialogue that starts to touch on this conflict between mortals and the gods. What exactly do mortals deserve? We also have literal Icarus "flew too close to the sun" here too (and probably Pandora). Chronos was able to sway many to his side with a promise of a golden age without the gods, which is presented by the narrative as a foolish venture. And not saying it isn't, or that Chronos is the secret good guy here, but I believe Chronos is taking advantage of a very real hurt that exists for mortals.

This line from Nemesis really stood out to me, because it implies that while mortals have a concept of evil, the gods don't. Which sounds ridiculous but the more you think about it makes total sense. The gods in Hades (and just greek myth in general), are kind of the worst. They are petty and selfish, they literally attack you if their boon isn't picked first, and most vitally in this context, often utterly disregard mortals.

For example, one of the things that drove me a little crazy in Hades 1, was how chill everyone was with Demeter's never ending winter. Demeter was killing possibly millions upon millions of mortals and everyone else just sort of let it happen. Maybe complained a bit because it was annoying to them, but just stood by. And that's just one example. Mortal's have a very valid reason to hate the gods.

And considering we have more areas of the surface to explore that aren't out yet, I have a feeling Melinoë is going to be meeting some of these discontent mortals. And my hope is they are going to be nuanced characters, that will challenge Melinoë not just in a fight, but her very ideals.

Because Melinoë is very deferential to the gods, waaaaaay more that Zag ever was. Unlike Zag, who was more like a bro to them and was willing to suck up to them for personal gain, Melinoë seems to genuinely mean all the respect she gives them. She praises them, defends them when they are insulted, and just generally very polite to them.

In a smaller scale, she describes Hypnos as having a wisdom about him and can somehow sense her intensions while asleep. Which as Nem implies, the version in Melinoë's head doesn't exactly line up with reality (though sidebar, I am a believer in Chekov's Hypnos and that he's going to somehow save the day and put Chronos in a never ending sleep or something, but that's beside the point haha).

Melinoë's reverence to the gods makes total sense of course. She was denied her family and a happy childhood, and because of that has glorified them all in her head. The Olympians are sending her vital aid on her holy mission for vengeance and to save her family, even as their own home is being attacked, how honorable of them!

And I think part of Melinoë's arc is that perfect picture of them breaking into pieces. Yes, they are the better of the two options between them and Chronos, but that doesn't mean they aren't also kind of the worst. That mortals deserve better than frivolous gods that can decide on a whim their fates for better or worse (love u Moros but I'm still fucked up over you and your sisters giving mortals horrible doom endings when you were bored. At least he feels bad now but still. Perfect example of gods even when not intending to having horrific consequences for mortals). And maybe like how Zag healed relations with his family, Melinoë can start repairing relations between the Gods and Mortals.