#LDS doctrine of premortal life

[mindfulldsliving]

Satan's Punishment: A Thoughtful Latter-day Saint Response to Michelle Grim of Life After Ministries

Understanding Satan’s Punishment: A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Michelle Grim’s Insights When we think about Satan’s punishment, it’s crucial to understand its significance in Latter-day Saint theology. Critics often misunderstand this topic, especially those like Michelle Grim from Life After Ministries, who question the relationship between Jesus and Satan. In Latter-day Saint belief, both…

[trberman]

Responding to Michelle Grim and Life After Ministry's Post "LDS: Jesus Prophesied of Joseph Smith"

ABSTRACT: In a recent post on Life After Ministry, Michelle Grim critiques Joseph Smith’s prophetic role and foreordination in the Restoration of the Gospel, referencing biblical passages such as 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 and Matthew 24:24. Grim questions the validity of Joseph Smith’s prophetic claims, suggesting that Jesus’ warnings about false prophets apply to him. She challenges readers to…

[calvinistwoman]

PREFACE: Unless otherwise stated, all quotes regarding LDS Doctrine will be taken from the following:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics

So in response to a post i saw regarding the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (aka: the Mormon Church), I wanted to make a super quick post about the differences between LDS doctrine and Biblical doctrine. Obviously, I am a Christian and I disagree with a lot of LDS doctrine. I just wanted to outline some major differences since, as you can see in this post, Mormons often refer to themselves as Christians. “Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christians.” (Under Topic: Are Mormons Christian?)

This is in no way meant to belittle anyone’s beliefs, and it’s my apologies if I misrepresent anyone.

(also I know this post talks a little about Jehovah’s Witnesses as well... but I really don’t know as much about them so I don’t feel qualified to speak on that.)

Firstly, I want to say that I do not believe Mormons are Christians. I will back up this statement in a moment. I don’t say it because I dislike Mormons or anything. I say it because when you look at the Biblical parameters for what a Christian is, it’s clear that Mormons do not meet the qualifications. While every single Mormon I've ever met has been extremely kind and obviously devoted to their beliefs, I can not count them as brothers and sisters in Christ. And here’s why...

We have different Scriptures. I am starting here because every disagreement stems from this point. The Christian view of scripture is that the Bible is the Word of God. It is complete and infallible. We stand on the authority of the Bible as being perfect and unchanging. This differs from the LDS view. Yes, the LDS church hold to the Bible as one of their scriptures, however they also add the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, as well as the word of the prophet. All these constitute the words of God. “to claim that the Bible is the sole and final word of God—more specifically, the final written word of God—is to claim more for the Bible than it claims for itself.” (Under Topic: Are Mormons Christian?)

Second, we have different Gods. I know, you’re thinking... “What? No way. They seem so similar.” And they really do when you look at them broadly. Be both believe in God the father, His Son Jesus Christ and His redemptive plan, and the Holy Spirit who indwells us and helps us. So what’s the difference? There are actually a lot of differences. You know how a lot of atheists will say “Yeah Jesus was real, he was just a good teacher.” Well it’s sort of like that. We both believe in the same historical person, but that’s where it ends. It’s a bit like comparing the real Abraham Lincoln to Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter. They’re both talking about the same guy....sort of.

So how do we view the Godhead, and how are these views contradictory? 

LDS - I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. (King Follett Discourse)

Christian - Isaiah 43:10 I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

LDS - God and Jesus Christ are glorified, physical beings and that each member of the Godhead is a separate being.

Christian - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are one God in three persons. God is also a spirit, not a man. But for our sake, Christ took on flesh and bone to bare our sins.

(Under Topic: God the Father)

LDS - We are all literally children of God, spiritually begotten in the premortal life.

Christian - We are created beings, made by God for His glory.

LDS - His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”

Christian - God’s ultimate aim is to put all things under His subjection and to receive all the praise, honor, and glory due Him.

(Under Topic: Holy Ghost.)

LDS -  Through His power, we are sanctified as we repent, receive the ordinances of baptism and confirmation, and remain true to our covenants

Christian - Sanctification is a work of the Spirit making us more like Christ.

LDS -  All honest seekers of the truth can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, leading them to Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Christian - The indwelling of the Spirit is a mark of a true believer. It happens as a result of the hearing of the gospel and a faith in Jesus Christ.

(Under Topic: Jesus Christ)

LDS -  As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His ‘other sheep��� (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised ‘dispensation of the fulness of times’ (Ephesians 1:10).

Christian - I mean we would just reject this entirely. We also understand the “other sheep” to mean gentiles, not ancient Americans. 

Thirdly, we have a different view of the atonement. This makes sense as we have different views of God, and different sources for truth.

(Under Topic: Salvation)

 To be cleansed from sin through the Savior’s Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). Those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority have been conditionally saved from sin. In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual’s continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God (see 2 Peter 2:20–22).

(Under Topic: Gospel)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4).

The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

2 Nephi 25:23 “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

Articles of Faith 1:3 - We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

As you can see, this is very different from the Biblical Gospel which is by grace, freely given to all who believe. It’s very man-centered and works-based. It relies on several conditions to get and then maintain salvation. 

Fourthly, the LDS church and their scriptures have a different view of the fall.

“Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

“And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:10–11).

This almost makes it sound like the fall was a good thing. As though Adam and Eve were happy, and the sin was a blessing. But the Biblical reality is that the sin brought about pain and death. Yes, the fall is apart of God’s redemptive plan, but we should never view it as good. We should view it the way God did.

Gen. 2:16-19 To the woman he said,“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow  you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

God did not view the fall lightly. He cursed mankind, and the world with us. 

I could go on, but it’s clear that we hold very different views. To claim that both these views stem from the same religion seems illogical. They contradict each other constantly. 

Again... as people, I have no issues with Mormons. They are genuinely some of the kindest people I have ever met. But it is a sad reality that they believe in a false God, a false Gospel, and that they ultimately have no hope in their religion. If you have any questions about anything I’ve said here, go ahead and send me a message. 

[nerdygaymormon]

Gays, Feminists, & Intellectuals

In 1993 Elder Boyd K Packer gave a speech to a group of LDS Church employees.

He shared several stories about how easy it is to get turned around, especially by well-meant intentions. Then he warned of three dangers influencing church members to “face the wrong way” -- gays, feminists and intellectuals

To underscore his point, Elder Packer quoted from three letters, each representing one of the three dangers.

———————————————————————

Gay

This is the excerpt of the letter from a gay member. I thought it was perfectly nice and a good gesture, in fact, I could imagine writing such words.

"May 3rd marks my 18th year in the Church. As a gay Mormon, I have witnessed and experienced first-hand during those eighteen years what it's like to be a homosexual in a Church which is sometimes less than accepting of its gay members. My experiences have run the range from incredible, Spirit-filled and loving encounters with members, Bishops and Stake Presidents to a laughable run-in with a departing Mission President. May I share with you some of the more permanent and meaningful memories?"

"So in a spirit of friendship I offer that which I have to give -- the life experience of a gay Mormon. At your convenience I would be happy to meet with you to discuss the issues facing gay Latter-day Saints and the Church. The purpose for meeting is not to debate, or to presumptively call you to repentance, or to be called to repentance myself for being gay. The point is to meet together and share what we have for the good of The Kingdom and the furthering of the Will of the Lord on Earth."

Holding this genuinely friendly letter from a member of the church up as a bad example is a very uncharitable way to respond. This member is offering to help make church a better place for people who are being hurt,

Later in his address, Elder Packer says this young man has “gender disorientation,” which makes it clear that Elder Packer sees being gay as some sort of psychological disorder. If he did think this is a mental disorder, you might believe an apostle of the Lord would treat such people compassionately, but apparently these members deserve the treatment they’re getting.

———————————————————————

Feminist

The next excerpt is from a woman who is hurting:

"I'm upset that I was always advised to go back and try harder only to get abused more. I need some comfort, I need solace, need hope, need to know Heavenly Father sees all that I have endured. What hope do I have for a chance to live with Heavenly Father? If temple marriage is the key to the celestial [kingdom], where am I? Outside gnashing my teeth for eternity? Help me."

It sounds like this woman was being abused by her husband and when she would seek help, was advised to go back because divorce would keep her out of the Celestial Kingdom. Elder Packer said that “perhaps [she] wonders if anyone but the feminists care about her problems.” Her wanting to leave her husband is the result of feminist thinking?

“The woman pleading for help needs to see the eternal nature of things and to know that her trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. She will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There she will have no hope. If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.“

I find Elder Packer’s comments about this woman to be infuriating. First by saying that not wanting to stay with an abuser is feminism. No one deserves to be abused, that’s basic morality. And as for the abuse, he doesn’t recommend treatment, he dismisses the abuse by comparing it to a first-grader’s problems. 

———————————————————————

Intellectual

He dismisses the complaint that The Brethren regularly speak poorly of the church’s own scholars by describing the person as a “self-described intellectual.”

———————————————————————

Elder Packer says “The question is not whether they need help and comfort. That goes without saying. The question is ‘How?’” 

Here’s how he provides help and comfort:

“That young man with gender disorientation needs to know that gender was not assigned at mortal birth, that we were sons and daughters of God in the premortal state.“ 

“If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.” 

“...the doctrines of the gospel are revealed through the Spirit to prophets, not through the intellect to scholars.”

Thanks, but this is the type of “help & comfort” that does neither.

———————————————————————

Thankfully the leadership and the members have grown over the past quarter century.

imho, the three groups he identified as dangers to the church are actually saving it. The reasoning they put forward is persuasive because it adheres to gospel principles.

Scholars keep us honest about our past. Feminist point at the inequities that are institutionalized against 1/2 the membership. Gays remind us that the Plan has gaps and we need to do better at learning to love others.

These may seem like sideline issues for cis married men, everything in church supports and validates them. Things are working just fine for them, and so they’re cautious about making changes, and especially reluctant to get ahead of the membership in some of these hot button issues.

As frustratingly slow as it is, progress inside the church is being made in these areas, but much more progress is needed.

[exceldsdeo-blog]

Born Again

The Christian philosophy of quoting a few passages from the Bible and accepting Jesus is the same easy to follow promise made by Lucifer in premortal life for which he and all those who accepted this easy promise to achieve a top shelf Heaven were cast out and shall never reach any level of Heaven as in 1 Cor. 15:40-42, Sun, Moon, Stars which were also on the doors of the Temple of Solomon. I agree rather in the "work out salvation" involving confession to a proper authority if needed followed by restitution and repentance. Confession to a priest or religious leader is insufficient if there are hate crimes or crimes of greed and hate which are against civil law. Both John the Baptist and Jesus prioritized repentance for which there is no need in a current born again philosophy that stresses an easy way without any responsibility to achieve a level of Heaven. It's sad that across almost every leadership of religion, Christian Mormon Jewish and Muslim is predominated by priestcrafts or the commandments and doctrines of humans. It's like D&C 76 is totally being ignored by LDS leaders and members turning it back into the two only levels of a Heaven and a hell, the two that are brought to you by the letter Hh. The complexities of the cosmos and biological interactions on our planet are clear indications of MORE...

It's like cutting out a few passages here and there out of either the Bible, Book of Mormon, Torah, or Quran, and making a door covering for the Tabernacle and have nothing left for the top covering and wall coverings...it can no longer provide an edifice for enlightenment and the making and keeping of commitments and covenants.Too Too many religious leaders cut out passages from a whole book of sacred writ like cutting out parts of whole grain and try to plant that in themselves and others and expect it to produce the same fruits of joy and peace. Instead they get thistles and thorns, hates and exclusionism which instead excludes themselves from the higher more potent dimensions of the Heavens. Limiting themselves to the vague light of the Stars or utter darkness, instead of the light of the Moon or brilliance of the Sun. You need to plant the WHOLE GRAIN, the WHOLE SEED to get the FRUITS.

[apostateangela]

The Family You Choose- Part One

The FAMILY You CHOOSE!

Recently I went to see DC’s movie Shazam!

And it made me think and feel many things...

You might be asking yourself,

“Is this how it’s always going to be?”

I’m asking myself something similar,

“How many posts are going to connect to the movies you see Angela?”

The answer is, “Who cares how many, if it helps me to write?”

I’ve missed a week or three-ish because I haven’t been able to pick what to write about next. There are many things happening around and inside me right now.

And so many things that have already happened.

And that night, while watching Shazam!

...there it was before me,

This post is about family.

Before I add my Shazam! Spoilers, as always, it is important to establish the baseline of how family has been defined for me.

Mormons have large families. The average number of children in a Mormon family is 5-6 with many families consisting of 8-12. Yes, you read that right, 8-12 small people you are responsible to support and raise. This is not history, but current reality. I myself have only two brothers.

But that is because my mother has type 1 diabetes and was told by her doctors not to have ANY children.

She had three and each pregnancy and birth threatened her life.

We were miracles.

She wanted twelve.

I have four children, small by Mormon standards.

And just to give you a sense of timeline, by the time I was 28 I’d had 5 pregnancies, one of which was an ectopic and four of which resulted in live children--all relatively healthy adults now.

It can be said that ‘family’ is one of the most important things/themes for LDS members.

It is a well defined and deep paradigm.

There is even an official church document titled “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” which outlines the very traditional and patriarchal structure of Mormon families.

For example:

1.Two heterosexual married parents; in fact it is not only a commandment to get married but to have children.

We, The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles, of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children…. The First Commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

2. Mother and Father, man and woman have gender identified roles; in fact gender and their subsequent roles are divinely defined and created by God.

All Human Beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose….

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children…. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

Let me translate:

Heterosexual marriage, only.

Two defined genders, unchangeable.

Set gender roles with the man presiding (sets all the rules) and providing (as the sole breadwinner).

The woman has babies and stays home to nurture and take care of them.

Only in the case of disability, death, or some other drastic circumstances is the woman allowed to work, and really only after extended family support has been solicited.

This equates to quite literally keeping the woman barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen

(unless she needs to clean the rest of the rooms in the house).

This document was released in 1995 and has not been modified since. It is something the Church subscribes to today. Most Mormon homes have an embellished copy of this document framed and hanging on the walls of their homes. I did, for 25 years.

Let me make something clear, I am not saying that a household with two committed parents working together for the welfare of their children is a bad thing. Quite the contrary, I wish it for all children. But the delineation of a singular acceptable structure for that endeavor causes problems for those of us who do not fit into the cookie cutter.

As I child, I benefited from a mother who DID fit into the cookie cutter. A woman who made my brothers and I her entire world. Who used her incredible homemaking skills to take the money my father made (working two jobs and farming on the side, absent in almost every way) to create a home centered around her children and Jesus Christ.

As a woman, she taught me how to be like her; I can cook, bake (7 kinds of homemade bread from scratch) clean, garden, preserve food, raise farm animals, butcher meat, sew, embroidery, crochet, iron, play the piano, arrange flowers, and craft a thousand different ways--to say nothing of my mothering skills.

So when I married at nineteen, I tried to fit. I made my home and family in that cookie cutter, its edges skinning pieces from me for fifteen years. As my children grew and were old enough to be in school all day, I started to take steps outside the mold, fighting my husband and my culture to hold a job, attend classes at a junior college, and find my own way. It took another ten long years to get a bachelor degree that should have taken me three. Had I not done so, my life would be incredibly more difficult that it is now.

I have said this before. I will say it now, again. I love my children. I am glad I am a mother--even though all motherhood is bittersweet.

Forgive this digression, this post is less about how I was oppressed as a woman in this structure and more about the meaning of family for me and how it has changed. But the reference to Mormon doctrine and reminder of my past is important to establish the understanding that while I wanted to further my personal development (feeling guilty for every step I took in that quest), I ultimately did as the church taught with my whole heart. I poured myself into my family and believed I was creating something that was lasting and eternal. The biggest catch phrase of the Mormons is “Families are Forever”. That is also something I had hanging in variations of crafty attraction in my home: painted, crocheted, embroidered, photographed, and always framed.

The sealing of a man and woman together that is performed in the temple as part of a temple marriage also binds those children born into the covenant of that marriage to those parents for all of eternity.

(To be continued)