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A Stag and a Wolf in the Snow

“Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth. Syrio Florel”

Syrio’s lesson to Arya is an important one to keep in mind when reading ASOIAF. It indicates how much of GRRM’s story focuses on observation and perception. What people see and why they see it determines what conclusion they draw. “We see the world not as it is, but as we wish it to be, or as we were conditioned to see it (Stephen Corey).”And we have been conditioned through fairy tales to see the spunky girl running off with the dashing and handsome prince.

As readers we sometimes ask ourselves the right questions kind of i.e. ‘Why Ned hasn’t thought of Rheagar in years if he’s Jon’s father’ when the question should be “has Ned ever thought and or talked about anyone in particular to Jon?” And moreover, how has GRRM constructed the narrative to convey this if it’s there? It’s a good question because deep down we know it’s unrealistic that Ned would be able to keep Jon’s father out of his thoughts let alone FOR YEARS. That’s why we asked the question in the first place and knowing that we the readers aren’t clairvoyant absent Weirnet and glass candles, GRRM gives us the answers to the questions that we will be prone to ask in the text. So what is the answer?

“The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes.”

IMO GRRM intentionally chooses who to give us certain info via for a reason using dialogue and visual. Jon, is the only one of the Stark kids whom Ned talked of Robert to and quite a bit that’s a given. We also see a contrast in the “story” content the author chooses to show us of Ned’s “fireside musings”. For instance, the stories that Bran calls to mind, is intimately connected to his future arch.

“He seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest (Bran 1).”

This is not to say it was the only story Ned told Bran or that Bran was alone when he told it, but it’s what the author chose to have Bran alone convey. Likewise, Jon tells of Ned speaking about Robert to him and as we continue reading, one realizes a lot of info dumps about Robert occurs in Jon’s chapters, more than any other prospect ,and together they are mentioned in other POVs together a fair amount of time.The purpose it seems unknowing to characters but plot wise is to give insight about Robert to Jon. We start with what Ned tells him, what he perceives and what others are telling him how Robert was, is and how he’s changed. Ned, it seems, unable to tell the truth did the next best thing. He told of Robert’s exploits to Jon, talking Robert up above everyone one else, ALL PRINCES. This is not a father telling a son of his exploits,but a best friend telling a son about his father.We also get Jon speaking to Benjen about Ned taking Robert to the crypts. So the author establishes Jon’s familiarity of a connection between Robert and Lyanna which is important on an upcoming personal level. Robert is not far removed from Jon. He’s better positioned to be identifiable to Jon as much as Rhaegar is far removed from him, but connected and identifiable to Dany for example.

So, you may have guessed by now that this theory postulates that Robert and Lyanna were Jon’s parents.

Where misconceptions begin and should end.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “<snip>, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”--GoT, pg. 379.

We could all agree that the above quote indicates that Lyanna had concerns about Bob’s ability to be faithful regardless of love. Noteworthy though is her familiarity with him, for she addresses him not as “Robert Baratheon” but “Robert” so he was no stranger to her. We should also note when the timing of this conversation took place; which was the night Lyanna found out she was to wed Robert. So consider, Robert and Lyanna knew each other prior to the arrangement and additionally, they were betrothed for a while before Lya “went missing.”

The WB pg.127 indicated that Robert and Lyanna had been “long” betrothed so there was time enough for this concern about Robert’s fidelity to be proven, or not. And two things need to happen for that. This definitive notion that Lyanna didn’t want the marriage is incorrect. There is nothing that shows this, nor did she express this.GRRM has showed us a repeated pattern of characters saying they don’t want a marriage. Sansa; Dany,Brandon,Alys and this is not just internally saying it, but actually saying it to someone. It was no biggie having them voice their feelings on if they wanted their intended or not. Yet, Lyanna said nothing about not wanting the marriage.

The politics of marriage

GRRM has showed us outcomes of several arranged marriages in this series. E.g. Cat and Ned grew to love each other, when initially they didn’t. Dany and Drogo grew in love. Then we have Robert and Cersei, who were disastrous. No matter the outcome, all of these couples hooked up to secure alliances. It was expected of them and they understood the stakes involved. From the main text and the World book, we know alliances were being made via marriages, of which BraCat ,JoLys RoLya were pairings; a power block on the rise.

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though ... there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together ... but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southern ambitions <snip> ADWD Chpt 38.

I would like to point out that Brandon despite how he felt about Barb was going to marry Cat. Like him Lyanna would know how important this alliance was to her family and her place in securing it as she was taught

The take away from this: Duty to family, and if you’re lucky you just might grow in love. All this brings me to these two quotes from GRRM.

“And then there are some things that just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy………”

“And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the middle Ages<snip>they have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.”

GRRM has raised an important issue here about class structure and expectations of those who live in it. He occasionally likes to play with perception and norms. In this case Lyanna is the stable boy and the peasant girl. She is nobility yes, royalty no. Additionally, the below quotes give no indication from Robert and Ned that Lyanna and Robert weren’t going to get married had she not died. Meaning Ned’s internal thought and even Robert’s words didn’t betray that they though she did anything that would hinder that.

Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. (AGOT,Ned).

“We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood.”

Sum: Given GRRM’s quotes, along with the social, political and emotional stakes and ideologies involved in the era he created it’s unlikely that Lya bolted from her betrothal to Robert for Rhaegar. And it’s just as unlikely that Rhaegar ran off with her.Also,there is something to Ned’s statement that Robert loved Lyanna even more than he did. What is the basis for Ned saying that? How does he know the extent of Robert’s love for his sister? Think about it.Your reading this and your in a relationship would you just saying that you love your spouse etc be enough to convince your significant others family that love is there? No they would have to observe,see how you treat their loved one. Robert and Lyanna’s relationship had to be one where Ned could make such a statement. Which brings me to point raised over and over that Lyanna and Robert had nothing in common and so she would find Rhaegar more suitable.

A perfect match

One of the reasons Robert is dismissed as being Jon’s father is the image of Robert as this drunk, fat womanizer. Lyanna could never love him “for who could ever love a beast.” People forget that Robert, miles from ever having been perfect was a far cry from the man he’d become.

“I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king," he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord whose worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong.

Note: The man Ned is describing as the perfect match for Sansa has Robert’s qualities.

I would like to point out Robert was a catch, to quote Ned “muscled like a maiden’s fantasy “given his qualities and if fidelity wasn’t an issue during their betrothal and it wasn’t, sparks would fly.

About Lyanna:

"'You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave. "Ned to Arya (I 215).

“The crowning of the Stark girl who by all accounts was a wild and boyish thing…… (WB, pg137).

“He [Brandon] loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. ADWD chpt 38.

“That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse…..”

About Robert:

“He (Ned) was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that (AGOT,Ned.Chp 12).”

“He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?” Agot Ned.”

“I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and matters of state, Ned. It's all as tedious as counting coppers. Come, let's ride, you used to know how. I want to feel the wind in my hair again." He kicked his horse back into motion and galloped up over the barrow, raining earth down behind him (AGOT,Ned Chpt 12).

“Gods," he swore, laughing, “It feels good to get out and ride the way a man was meant to ride! I swear, Ned, this creeping along is enough to drive a man mad." He had never been a patient man, Robert Baratheon AGOT,Ned,chpt 12).”

“His leg was throbbing so badly he was almost blind with pain. Or perhaps it was grief that fogged his eyes. He lowered himself to the bed, beside his friend. “Why do you always have to be so headstrong? agot?”

I find it strange the argument that Lyanna who had strong feelings about what Robert might do would go with a guy who definitely proved he would cheat for Rhaegar was a married man with two kids.

Clues to an intimate relationship between Robert and Lyanna

Robert and Ned wouldn’t be dead for a while, so we get first hand/ inside info regarding anything that was said and/or done Including Lyanna’s words regarding Robert.

1. Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all hisheart.Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. (AGOT,Ned).

2. “He’s still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen year old.” How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna AGOT, Bran, Pg.83……Snap

3. "We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores.""A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen,"

4. Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused.”

Actual information directly attesting to Robert’s feelings for Lyanna and it gets better as we proceed.

“The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

Pay attention to how Robert refers to getting Lya back safe “mine again” The idea of “mine” comes up a couple of times in this series and is one of endearment that speaks of emotional and or physical intimacy i.e.

“She pushed him back against the trunk of a tree and kissed him, full on the lips right there in the midst of the ragged column. <Snip>. He kissed her back despite all that. When they finally broke apart, Ygritte was flushed. "You're mine," she whispered. "Mine, as I'm yours.”

“He is mine.” She rose to her feet. “They all tried to take him from me. My lord father, my husband, your mother…Catelyn most of all. She liked to kiss my Petyr too, oh yes she did (asos,Sansa).

So we move from the inside information of intimates and see what else can be gleaned from the other quotes below to answer an important question. Was this one-sided or not?

1. “She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. <Snip> “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief.”<Snip>. “The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh.”

It also explains the behavior exhibited by Robert toward the statue told to us from the POV of Ned. These quotes show something that is not seen by any other prospect no matter much you go through the text……physical and emotional INTIMACY.

2. “And Cersei... I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir.”

3. “Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.—Ned,GoT, pg. 480.------

This quote given to us by Cersie is very telling. Robert could be grieving for the physically unrealized when it comes to Lyanna, which is the weakest of the arguments given the context of the quotes, or he could have been reenacting what he did with Lyanna by calling out her name in bed too drunk to realize it wasn’t her.

Let’s now look at another quote and objectively see what is underneath.

“Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold . . . the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs."

Robert seems taken aback by Cersie withholding pussy. Robert’s reaction to that reveals that Cersie might be the only woman to reject him, which in itself is a hint that Lyanna “didn’t guard her cunt from Robert” which brings us to the only statement made by Lyanna about Robert.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” It’s something that got overlooked the moment Lya uttered those famous words. From her statement comes the realization, that “Keeping to one bed” doesn’t have a start date.Ned assured Lyanna that what Robert did before their betrothal was no consequence,so this doesn’t mean after they were married.Sure its what socially expected,but people in Westeros seldom kept this expectation.

What are the odds that during their entire betrothal Robert never made the move? Given Robert’s libido slim and again “Keeping to one bed” means whenever they decide to be intimate. Lyanna would have to be ok with being with Robert whenever it happened for him to have one bed to possibly keep to or not.

The Coat of Arms worth a thousand words.

Remember I brought up paying attention to who GRRM chooses to convey info verbally or visually via? Let’s look at, IMO a set up and reveal by the author that begins in you guessed it …An Arya and Jon conversation. Keep in mind their conversation and the TKOTLT story. I believe others have put forth strong evidence that Lya was TKOTLT. But this reveals her heart.

“Perhaps you should wed Tully to Stark in your arms. A wolf with a fish in its mouth “That made her laugh. “Besides if a girl can’t fight why should she have a coat of arms?” Jon to Arya---Agot.

“he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."

"A wolf on four legs, or two?”. “Two," said Meera. "The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all.

“But the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face (asos,Bran).”

“He (Robert) laughed uproariously, and even Ned smiled, remembering. This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved.”

“Gods," he swore, laughing, “It feels good to get out and ride the way a man was meant to ride! (AGOT,Ned Chpt 12).”

“Robert ... He is in my dreams as well. Laughing. Drinking. Boasting. Those were the things he was best at. Those, and fighting. (Stannis about Robert).

“He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. “Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this?"Agot,Ned ,Chpt 58.

“Is that any way to speak to your King? He let go, his laughter sudden as a storm. ”Ah danm you Ned….”

“Robert succeeded him as Lord of Storm’s End and grew to be one of the finest Knight’s in the Seven Kingdom………-a warrior so strong and fearless that many hailed him the Laughing Storm reborn WB,pg,230.

“The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said ... but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots,<snip> ASOS,Jon.

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father (AGOT, Ned, pg.43).

Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield. As we peel back the onion the picture emerges of two people who had history and a lot in common joined together for politics and despite the bride’s concern and the groom’s past they developed a mutually physical and emotional relationship. Love.

Mythic parallel and theme: Connections Robert, Lyanna and Jon.

So now that a connection between Robert and Lyanna has been made is there a unification of all three?

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war……. "The war, “she affirmed……

“There is two onion Knight Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two. The war has been waged since time began …………The war has been waged since time began,…(ASOS,Davos Chpt 25)."

GRRM incorporated several world mythologies in his story and some of these myths overlap in the lives of some of the characters but sometimes we get a gem that is very unique to certain characters and events. One such myth has very strong allusions that Jon’s parents are Robert and Lyanna.

We look toward a ritual that was recreated by the author at Harrenhal. In many pagan traditions, Beltane the third holiday on the “wheel of the year” is a major fertility feast heralding spring. Certain characters in this story were acting out or have acted out the Wheel of the Year as it relates to a very important ritual called “The grand rite” aka “the sacred marriage”. Central to the Beltane ritual are two figures. The Horned god, a solar god whose dual aspect Oak and Holly king rules summer and winter respectively. In some traditions he is one person with two parts to his nature. He dies and is born again with the help of the goddess to continue the cycle.

The Players and how they line up

Horned god: “He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. <Snip> tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his Warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. Agot,Ned,Chpt 58.”

“Robert? Robert was hunting. That was his custom. Whenever my time was near, my royal husband would flee to the trees with his huntsmen and hounds. When he returned he would present me with some pelts or a stag’s head, and I would present him with a baby.”

“He laughed and slapped his own ample stomach a thump. “And the girls, Ned!” he exclaimed, his eyes sparkling.”

Here George has given us the imagery of Robert as the horned god but as his dual aspect the Oak warrior and Holly king from which Santa Claus emerged the jolly plump man with sparkling eyes.

The goddess: “The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. ACOK Theon.

“”Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him.”Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

The maiden crowned with a halo of flowers is the typical imagery for the goddess at Beltane and this is what Lyanna represents.

A Wicker Man: “Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ring mail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. AFFC,Cersie.

“The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him”

The Wicker man though a product of modern paganism in a ritualistic context is the working of sympathetic magic. The purpose is to change what the effigy represents and hinder its power. Both Rhaegar and Aerys would fit the Wicker man archetype.

The great rite: “There’s nothing like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, words or kisses maybe more, but where’s the harm in that Spring had come-Harwin to Arya-(ASOS,Arya)

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. (Meera Reed).

Good times, good wine, ceremony, pageantry and sex.

Jon Snow thou art the babe!!

“Jon remained standing. “It’s my father, isn’t it?” The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. “Your father and the king,” he rumbled.”

Going back to “Beltane at Harrenhal.”Based on the roles GRRM has placed everyone in, Lyanna and Robert did have a son that continues in the same arch of the horned gods Oak and Holly King archetype Ned’s chapter when Robert dies and Jon chapter when he gets the news flows directly into after each other.

“This is not Winterfell', he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. ‘On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you.”

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert’s feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him a green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death.

“He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn,” the bird said, and, "King, “and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

In addition to the mythical connection between Jon Lya and Robert, let’s look at another visual by GRRM.

“Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it. . . as it please you (meaning the choice was Ned’s to tell the king about Barra).Tell him how beautiful she is.”

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.<snip>She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

“Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then…”(GOT,Ned 1).

So follow me: A young girl mirroring Lya holding Robert’s bastard extracting a promise from Ned. It couldn’t be more beautiful laid than this.

Parallels and connections Jon and Robert

Echoes and parallels between comparative subjects are best made with similar experiences and choices that are actually present vs what we think may have happened and there are a lot of comparative echoes of Robert and Jon’s experiences and nature.

”He swallowed nervously and said, “Jon, could there be honor in a lie, if it were told for a … a good purpose?”

“It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose.” Jon looked at Sam. “I wouldn’t advise it. You’re not made to lie, Sam.”----Jon Snow to Sam Tarly

“Robert slapped Ned on the back.”Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. -----Robert Baratheon to Ned Stark

- Here we have Jon and Robert speaking to their best friends on honor, lies and how seemingly horrible they are at lying. We know that Ned and Sam kept something from their pals.

“We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his Warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right…..”

“This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words <snip>.“The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone…….. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.”

- Well what Robert would have done, is what Jon was on his way to doing before he got shanked.

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

” Jon took the letter back. “Why would he help us now? <Snip> “Well,” said Sam, “That would bring scorn down upon House Lannister.” “It’s death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn.” Jon lifted up the letter. (Jon to Sam affc.)

- Robert and Jon emotionally go too far their thoughts of revenge aren’t singular.

“It was the king's voice that put an end to it . . . the king's voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!"

“He has a lord’s voice, Jon thought. His father had always said that in battle a captain’s lungs were as important as his sword arm. “It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is, if his commands cannot be heard,”

“The wall will stop them," Jon heard himself say. He turned and said it again louder. "The wall will stop them. <snip> they cannot pass. THEY CANNOT PASS!"

- Linked by the use of the same lessons thought by Arryn and execution that’s commanding.

“there was no one to stop Jon drinking as much as he had a thirst for to the raucous delight of the youths around him, who urged him on every time he drained a glass. They were fine company, and Jon relished the stories they were telling, tales of battle and bedding and the hunt.”

“After all had been seated, toasts were made, thanks were given and returned, and then the feasting began. Jon had started drinking then, and he had not stopped.”

“He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man,”(agat,Jon 1).

- This is a bit of visual parallelism going on here and some mirroring with Jon making an observation about Robert’s state and actions while being in said state and doing the same thing himself.

“I’ve watched you fight. It’s not training with you. Put a good edge on your sword, and they’d be dead meat; you know it, I know it, they know it (Jon,AGOT).”

“The song of steel on steel woke a hunger in Jon. It reminded him of warmer, simpler days, when he had been a boy at Winterfell matching blades with Robb….(Jon ADWD).”

“In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

He (Rhaegar) never liked the song of swords the way Robert did or Jamie Lannister Dany,acok)”

“Seven hells Ned I want to hit someone.”Robert to Ned Agot.

He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right.”

- They both love the song of swords and have tendencies toward Berserker behavior.

Parallels and connections Jon and Lyanna

“Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.”

“Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.”

“They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."<Snip>"The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all.”

“………..Jon took a step forward…….”.Halder stop”. The Bastard wishes to defend his lady love, so we shall make an exercise of it. Rat, Pimple, help our Stone Head here.” Rast and Albett moved to join Halder. “Three of you ought to be sufficient to make Lady Piggy squeal. All you need do is get past the Bastard.” “Stay behind me,” Jon said to the fat boy.”

Why the secrecy if he’s Robert’s bastard?

“Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon,….”

So what if he’s Robert’s bastard the man has several of them .Well, for any lord, lady, father, uncle ambitious for a daughter, niece to be Robert’s new bride Jon would be a threat if anyone knew including Robert because it is highly likely he would want him at court. In this case it would have been the Lannisters who would feel threatened if Jon were legitimized.

“Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he (Robert) had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.”(AFFC,Cersie).

“There was another bastard, a boy (Gendry), older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way...but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?” "She was Robert’s that was enough for Cersei it would seem (Tyrion&Varys ACOK).

“Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children.”

“He gave Ned a sideways glance. “I’ve also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."

“He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war…………. You are no Tywin Lannister, to slaughter innocents."

“Your Robert got me with child once,” she said, her voice thick with contempt. “My brother found a woman to cleanse me .AGOT---Cersie to Ned.

“Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me (AFFC Cersie).”

And the way the narrative works it’s still the Lannisters in the form of Cersie whose kids aren’t Robert’s.

In addition to possible physical harm we have to think about the stigma. Legitimized or not the stain of bastardry remains as well as the belief about them. Except this would be throughout the realm.

“The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another. Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal”---Egg to Dunk.

“Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father he could as good a true son as Robb Stark.” ---Jon Snow.

“You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned (AGOT,Cat).

“If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? Ned.”

Sum: Jon’s life and emotional well-being would have been at risk if Robert or anyone knew.Robert would want him at court putting him in harm’s way and the stigma ascribed to him as a bastard would be worse at court. I think Lyanna’s promises did have to do with Jon though it was probably general i.e. “raise and protect my son as if he was your own. “But it was actually Ned who decided what what the fulfilment of that looked like

Timelines and nameday throwaways

We come to it, the seeming spoke in the wheel; the one thing when any prospect for Jon’s father is brought up they are immediately met with nope the timeline is wrong. The timeline for Jon’s birth is froth with the same errors of perception. Before I proceed, I think it’s important to look at this quote from GRRM as it in itself is a clue of which I will address later on in this section.

“The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing. My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story.—GRRM” www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances

Conventional thinking among the fandom puts Jon’s birth 1 month give or take of the sack of KL (Citadel);a premise that is problematic when considering a few issues which I will discuss. I believe that Jon is actually older than he or we think he is, the narrative supports this.Two pieces of info is used to determine Jon’s birth we will start with Robert and Ned’s conversation.

“And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, <snip>. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"…… She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . "

“I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men. “Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.""I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

First,Ned does what he always does when it comes to discussing Jon’s origins.He doesn’t validate what people think,or he shuts down the questioning pronto.Ned was believed to had a one time affair with a girl named Wylla and Robert assumes that one time event created Jon Snow.Ned acknowledges the affair and the affair only.He doesn’t acknowledge that Jon Snow’s mother was Wylla.

Catelyn Stark’s statements are also used to say when Jon was born,but there are problem’s with that to.

“He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew……

Cat is saying that she found out about Jon in the first year of their marriage,not anything that says Jon was fathered in the first year of their marriage.This would make sense considering Ned’s habit of not saying anything.

“It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”

The only thing Ned ever told Cat about Jon was that Jon was his blood.So any info Cat knows was fruit of the rumor vine.But there’s no need to put words in Cat’s mouth we have what she believes in ACOK’s

“She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?

If Cat believes this to be true,then she believes and knows that Jon is older than her son Robb. To add unto this there’s the story of the Fisherman’s daughter that puts Jon’s conception at the beginning of Robert’s rebellion.We also have Luuwin’s statement:

“Take me with you when you go back to the Wall,” Jon said in a sudden rush <snip>“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. “That’s true enough,” Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth.”

“He’d heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.”

Luuwin’s statement indicate there was talk of this at Winterfell people noticed despite who they treated as being older.It was simply explained away as “bastards just grow up faster.”

“He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence (agot,Cat.Chpt 6).”

Jon could have been 1.5 yrs when Cat showed up at Winterfell and it wouldn’t have been suspicious because we have prospects for Jon’s mother that people believe already .As long as none of them thinks Lyanna Jon and Ned’s secret is golden.Jon’s farce of an age was for Cat and Robb’s benefit basically to make Cat and Robb secure in their positions.Their is status in being the first son.That takes eyes off Jon if he’s seen as second son.

Lastly, there’s he author’s statement.

"All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.”

“She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible.”

First remember GRRM himself has made Jon’s parentage a secret. Putting clues in the series, his 98 letter and his tight lipped interviews on the matter. So in light of the preceding, why would he seemingly give it away with this ssm? I don’t think he did because he knew the conclusion which was going to be drawn would be false and that’s because Dany wasn’t born when she thought. I’ve talked about before and we will talk about it again but my belief is based on Dany’s belief compared to:

1. Jamie’s account of the Dragonstone departure.

2. Visery’s account of fleeing to Dragonstone.

3. Dany’s memories.

Points of contention that will come up and counters to them

The seed is strong.

1. Jon doesn’t have black hair like the rest of Robert’s bastards.

"The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago,...Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad boar with a full head of black hair. ... No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.”

A. Gendry remembers that his mom had yellow hair

B. Barra’s mother ….Had light red hair.

First, I will say that I believe the phrase “the seed is strong” isn’t limited or exclusive to hair color, jaw line and broad shoulders. I will come back to that later. What is being observed by Ned and told to us is the outcome between the black hairs of Baratheons with the gold hair of the Lion, only. Therefore its incorrect to exclude Jon based on his dark brown hair. Those of you familiar with genetics gets it.

So remember I told you to keep in mind that the above phrase means more than hair etc? “Seed” also means progeny/offspring,so reading this again with that in mind we have “the progeny/offspring” is strong.

About Gendry

The master called over a tall lad about Robb's age, his arms and chest corded with muscle

"This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard.

"You saw the boy. Such a strong boy. Those hands of his, those hands were made for hammers.

About Mya

“She found Mya Stone waiting impatiently with Lothor Brune and Mord. She must have come up in the bucket to see what was taking us so long. Slim and sinewy, Mya looked as tough as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt.”

About Edric

“Edric is a sturdily attractive youth, with jet-black hair and deep blue eyes.”(

Of those we are sure are Roberts his strength is stamped unto them. Jon exhibits exceptional strength as well but unlike the others in his case it is more noticeable because he doesn’t have the Baratheon stature or stature period that would explain his physical strength. Which is IMO what GRRM intended to show. We as fans notice his strength we call it his berserker rage but it’s an inherited trait.

“Lord Robert was wounded by the Dragon Prince in combat yet in the end Baratheon’s ferocious strength brought on by his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater ,WB. pg 129.

“He’d had a giant’s strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift.”

“I was always strong . . . no one could stand before me, no one.”--Robert to Ned

“ Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half-brother was strong and fast.

“When the wildling fell the mare bolted, but somehow Jon managed to grab her mane with his off hand and vault himself onto her back……

It was all he could do to force himself back to his feet and climb onto her back. How did I ever mount her before, without saddle or stirrups, and a sword in one hand? That was another question he could not answer Jon asos.”

Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm. Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor.

Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather's head and wrenched it violently from the ground. "Pull down the other two," he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey….

“To the men struggling with the spears Snow said, "Take the heads and burn them.”

“Iron Emmett was a long, lanky young ranger whose endurance, strength, and swordsmanship were the pride of Eastwatch. Jon always came away from their sessions stiff and sore, and woke the next day covered with bruises, which was just the way he wanted it.

Jon’s description as being slender/graceful go at odds with his strength.All Robert’s children that we were introduced to are said to be very strong.In Jon’s case its is even more amazing because he shouldn’t be as strong as he is given his physicality.

#Jonsnowstorm

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