#Is it a weird-american-christian holiday???

[sandinthepipes]

As a European I still don't know what the fuck goes on on thanksgiving besides the turkey

[edettethegreat]

Merry Christmas!!! 🎄🎄🎄

aw thank you!! Merry Christmas/happy holidays Wakanai!! And I’m guessing you’re done with finals/final assignments now, so (if your school didn’t give grades yet) good luck with the grades this term—I’m sure you did great on everything!!

[moinsbienquekaworu]

Oh my god is today Thanksgiving??

[skeletonologist]

Akhskdhshdjdhdjd

[durnesque-esque]

Images on my mind tonight... the first: the Nativity scene in Bethlehem's Church this year. The second: José y Maria by Everett Patterson (2014).. almost 10 years ago, still relevant.

Christmas has been a weird time for me for a long time. I'm pretty unreligious these days. But the imagery still haunts. Especially when I think about how I got to where I'm at and wonder how my Christian friends and family can be - sometimes- so far away ideologically.

How did I grow up in a church that worshiped a little baby born in an occupied state to parents who became immigrants and learn, therefore, to love the stranger, the oppressed, the unhoused? And why do so many of the people who were churched around me fail to learn to love radically?

The entrenched hypocrisy of American Christianity is why I left. But I am still embedded in the traditions of this holiday, looking at a Christmas tree and thinking of all the suffering not only half a world away, but also right down the street.

[indieyuugure]

Hi Indie! Soon fasting and Ramadan will come, do your turtles celebrate it? (like eating Ramadan food or trying to fast for the first time?)

Greetings of tolerance from Indonesia! 🇮🇩



Nope.

Splinter was raised Shinto, but upon moving to America, has sort of left a lot that behind and doesn’t actively celebrate most of the Shinto holidays he did in Japan. However for Matsuri and a couple other holidays he’ll go on midnight walks through Japanese gardens in New York.

The turtles are all a weird mix of Shinto, Christian or Agnostic. They celebrate most American holidays but will also sometimes accompany Splinter to celebrate different Shinto holidays.

They’re not really sure what they are nor do they really give it much thought. Leo and Donnie are probably the only ones who’ve really thought about it at all and both haven’t really arrived at much of a conclusion.

Good question! :]

[alpaca-clouds]

Worldbuild Differently: Unthink Religion

This week I want to talk a bit about one thing I see in both fantasy and scifi worldbuilding: Certain things about our world that we live in right now are assumed to be natural, and hence just adapted in the fantasy world. With just one tiny problem: They are not natural, and there were more than enough societies historically that avoided those pitfalls.

Tell me, if you have heard this one before: You have this fantasy world with so many differnet gods that are venerated. So what do you do to venerate those gods? Easy! You go into those big temple structures with the stained glass in their windows, that for some reason also use incense in their rituals. DUH!

Or: Please, writers, please just think one moment on why the fuck you always just want to write Christianity. Because literally no other religion than Christianity has buildings like that! And that has to do a lot with medieval and early post-medieval culture. I am not even asking you to look into very distant cultures. Just... Look of mosques and synagogues differ from churches. And then maybe look at Roman and Greek temples. That is all I am asking.

Let's make one thing clear: No matter what kind of world you are building, there is gonna be religion. It does not matter if you are writing medieval fantasy, stoneage fantasy, or some sort of science fiction. I know that a lot of atheists hate the idea that a scifi world has religion, but... Look, human brains are wired to believe in the paranormal. That is simply how we are. And even those atheists, that believe themselves super rational, do believe in some weird stuff that is about as scientific as any religions. (Evolutionary Psychology would be such an example.)

What the people will believe in will differ from their circumstance and the world they life in, but there is gonna be religion of some sort. Because we do need some higher power to blame, we need the rituals of it, and we need the community aspect of it.

Ironically I personally am still very much convinced that IRL even in a world like the Forgotten Realms, people would still make up new gods they would pray to, even with a whole pantheon of very, very real gods that exist. (Which is really sad, that this gets so rarely explored.)

However, how this worship looks like is very different. Yes, the Abrahamitic religions in general do at least have in common that they semi-regularily meet in some sort of big building to pray to their god together. Though how much the people are expected to go into that temple to pray is actually quite different between those religions and the subgroups of those religions.

Other religions do not have this though. Some do not have those really big buildings, and often enough only a select few are even allowed into the big buildings - or those might only be accessible during some holidays.

Instead a lot of polytheistic religions make a big deal of having smaller shrines dedicated to some of the gods. Often folks will have their own little shrine at home where they will pray daily. Alternatively there are some religions where there might be a tiny shrine outside that people will go to to pray to.

Funnily enough that is also something I have realized Americans often don't quite get: Yeah, this was a thing in Christianity, too. In Europe you will still find those tiny shrines to certain saints (because technically speaking Christianity still works as a polytheistic religion, only that we have only one god, but a lot of saints that take over the portfolios of the polytheistic gods). I am disabled, and even in the area I can reach on foot I know of two hidden shrines. One of them is to Mary, and one... I am honestly not sure, as the masonry is too withered to say who was venerated there. Usually those shrines are bieng kept in a somewhat okay condition by old people, but yeah...

Of course, while with historically inspired fantasy settings make this easy (even though people still hate their research), things get a bit harder with science fiction.

Again, the atheist idea is often: "When we develop further scientifically, we will no longer need religion!" But I am sorry, folks. This is not how the human brain works. We see weird coincidences and will go: "What paranormal power was responsible for it?" We can now talk about why the human brain has developed this way. We are evolved to find patterns, and we are evolved (because social animal and such) to try and understand the will others have - so far that we will read will in nature. It is simply how our brains work.

So, what will scifi cultures believe in? I don't know. Depends on your worldbuilding. Maybe they believe in the ghost in the machine, maybe there si some other religions there. You can actually go very wild with it. But you need to unthink the normativity of Christianity to do that. And that is... what I see too little off.

[spacelazarwolf]

Seeing how you're responding to a lot of insensitive asks from Christians, I was wondering if I could ask a good faith question as a change of pace?

I am religiously a liberal quaker, so one of the most important things to me spiritually is learning about how other people engage with god/their higher power. By listening to their experiences and making a strong effort to understand their perspective, I feel more connected with God and my community. Specifically, I want to learn how individuals engage in their faith and not just the "by the book, this is what x religion believes" you find online.

I've always had a deep respect for Judaism, and I want to approach the people in my circle and try to have those good faith learning experiences if they are willing, especially since the Jewish faith is so rare where I live.

Unfortunately, with a lot of my ethos and language being derived from Christ (even if I'm not a christian), it makes it feel like a minefield to even start the conversation. I'm queer, and the man who raised me was native American. I'm very aware of how being connected to Christianity, even only tangentially, will immediately raise red flags for people. And for good reason.

So, how do I disarm myself? I want to hear people's stories, I want to know the Light in them because I truly wish to love and understand them as they are. How do I approach and ask for consent for such a thing without it feeling like I'm waving a torch in their face?

i would start with gauging your level of awareness and education when it comes to general jewish stuff like history and practices and holidays. if you want to get more into the nitty gritty with hearing people's stories you'll need that foundation first if you really want to understand them. there's tons of books, websites like myjewishlearning, and you could even try contacting a rabbi and asking for an in person or phone appointment with them to ask some questions and get some suggestions for what resources to use. once you have that foundational level of understanding of judaism and the jewish people, it'll be much easier to talk to jews about more personal things.

in terms of actually approaching people, if they're your friends, then hopefully they already have a good idea of what kind of person you are and if they're comfortable sharing with you. if you don't know them as well, make sure you're not just going into the encounter with the goal of "learn jew stuff" and that's it. they're whole people, and you don't want to treat them like a jewish encyclopedia.

we can usually tell when someone is being genuine and when someone has weird or bad motives, so as long as you're respectful and honest about what you want from the conversation, and maybe share a bit of yourself as well, most of us are happy to talk about it.

also quakerism and quakers have always seemed very cool to me. i heard it's much more about a way of life instead of a set faith, which feels a lot like judaism to me. also y'all have the public universal friend so u r winning.

[thedreadvampy]

I find Americans talking about religion fascinating because they think the weird pentecostal/evangelical eschatology cults are Normal Christianity and not like. a really specific thing.

and that is by no means to say Christianity elsewhere is less fucked up but it's different.

like Americans will say stuff like "like most Christians, this cult believes we're in the end times and have to reclaim Zion to bring about Revelations, but what's weird about their beliefs is..." and it's like???? WHAT DO YOU MEAN LIKE MOST CHRISTIANS?????

like Scotland's still a pretty Christian country. some of the biggest sociopolitical divides are Christian sectarianism. we got Presbyterians we got Catholics we got Episcopalians we got Quakers (hi) we got Baptists and Methodists and Jehovah's Witnesses and so on. half of the population are Christian. but I don't think I have ever met more than a handful of people whose Christian belief is focused on Revelations and the end times. that's weird stuff my guys.

my outside appraisal of American Christianity is that it looks really very samey. there doesn't seem to be a lot of significant theological difference, or tbh aesthetic difference, between a good number of the major churches. worship practise, structure, and the focus on sin, evangelism and apocalypse seem to be way more common threads there than in Europe. and I feel like people grow up in that and think that means all Christianity is the same as that. which like. it isn't.

A lot of folks I know who've been to American Quaker communities, for example, have been really surprised at how much some Meetings in the US are cramming into the same episcpentamethodbaptitradcathevangelist church model - fire and brimstone preachers, our god is a great big god songs, focus on end times prophecy - and it just doesn't. line up with the degree of diversity in practise and focus for different Christian sects in most other parts of the world. where like. those types of churches also exist (the evangelical born-again rapture and damnation churches) but they're one approach among many.

and again that's not cause like. Christianity is only bad in the US and not bad anywhere else. Christianity does a lot of social good and a looooooot of social harm everywhere. but it's wild what Americans, Christian or otherwise, seem to take as the baseline beliefs of global Christianity. like I went to a Church of England school and I don't believe I was ever taught about Revelations, let alone the rapture or young earth ideology or biblical literalist creationism, except, eventually, as a thing some other people believe and it's weird. when the young earth creationists came into my secondary school to prostyletize it was a bloodbath cause every 14 year old in that room was like "what r u talking about m8 that's cult shit".

what I'm saying is: there's not a huge amount of universal Christian beliefs across all sectors except like "God is there. There's some Bible which contains some amount of spiritual value for some amount of literal interpretation. Jesus? Pretty great and important guy. Probably the son of God or actually God or some secret third thing." and everything else there's some dissent on. but of the things that are broadly though not fully universal - maybe like heaven, hell, sin, redemption through faith or deed, the resurrection, a physical/spiritual divide, prayer, some key holidays etc - I don't think that 'weirdly intense eschatology involving reclaiming Zion, global warfare, the Antichrist, decades of torturous end times, physical rapture etc' is in that mix. that's your country's weird thing that it's since exported through cultural colonialism, just like Christianity itself was largely exported through European cultural colonialism.

[sarahowritesostucky]

Seb is likely also circumcised. He was born into a Jewish family and still celebrates Jewish holidays, even if his mom raised him Christian after marrying a Christian guy.

Is he Jewish? I never heard that before. What makes you say that?

I often head canon Bucky as Jewish, but I was fairly sure that Sebastian wasn't. Do you have any evidence I could check out? I'd have to say it'd be disappointing to know he's cut. I have a massive affinity for uncut guys (I'm an outlier amongst American women, lol - most US women are afraid of and/or weirded out by natural male anatomy)

Unless you've got some information that I can't find, I think chances are pretty low of him being Jewish. Found this on Google: "In 1987, there were only 23,000 Jews living in Romania. This was due to a mass emigration to Israel during the country's communist regime. Today, most Romanian Jews live in Israel, but a small Jewish population still exists in Romania. In 2011, 3,271 people in Romania identified as Jewish in the census."

From what I can find, it seems he was raised in the Romanian Orthodox church while very young in Romania and Vienna, and then switched to his stepfather's brand of Christianity once they came to the US (though I think it's likely he's not religious in a spiritual sense, only culturally).

Update: on Jimmy Kimmel he explained that he grew up Christian Orthodox but lived with a Jewish family when he and his mother were in Austria from age 8-12.

So yes he's probably familiar with Jewish holidays and might even celebrate some of them, but his family isn't Jewish, and as a non-Jewish eastern European, he's almost certainly not circumcised (plus, he didn't seem to be, in stills from Monday).

So YAY! We can still celebrate Seb's uncut penis! (😅god I'm weird!)

[max1461]

>Have you seen religion discourse on this website?

I think so, I've lurked here for a while, but none of it included the Idea that the Japanese are especially religious (!?), which would seem to be contradicted by surveys, my anecdotal experience, and their general anglosphere stereotype(s).

Anyways, when Japanese people say "westerners" they usually mean Americans, and "Americans be unusually religious " is like, a super common and basically correct stereotype.

The opinion that you commonly see is that atheism or general irreligiosity are Western in origin, imposed on other parts of the world through either direct colonialism or general Western hegemony. This is not true, and our lovely memecucker has been doing the lord's work (ahem) in dispelling this idea from every angle, but people still cling to it.

Anyway, it's often pointed out that viewing irreligiosity as inherently Western is kind of weird, in light of the fact that many of the world's least religious countries are in Asia, and indeed (as far as I know) the only countries that continue to maintain an official state policy of atheism are in Asia. People try to rebuke this by saying something to the effect of "well, religiousness means something different over there, people only say they're not religious because the survey questions are Christian-centric" or something to that effect. Now, this rebuttal seems to be... sort of a misremembered version of an actually true fact, but the way it's used is total nonsense.

The true fact that I think it comes from is that religious identity in the Abrahamic faiths is centered around belief (usually) and is exclusive (if you're Christian you're not Muslim, and vice-versa), whereas in many other religious traditions, religious identity is centered around practice and is non-exclusive. So, for instance, in Japan people have historically engaged in a mix of Shinto and Buddhist practices, because there is nothing about the doctrines of either Shinto or Buddhism which says you have to believe one or the other, it doesn't work like that. And Shinto in particular does not consist of any one set of canonical doctrines or beliefs, it's more like a loose collection of different stories and practices that have existed in a huge array of variations across Japan and across its history.

I don't know much about Chinese folk religion, but I take it that it is in this regard similar.

In the present day, a lot of people in Japan still celebrate Shinto-Buddhist holidays and practice Shinto-Buddhist rituals, despite describing themselves as atheists or non-religious. And because Shinto has always had huge variation in doctrine and has always been defined more centrally by practices than beliefs, there's a case to be made that such people "are Shinto"—they fall well within the variation that Shinto has had in the past.

Except, no, that's fucking stupid! Because people will tell you that they're not religious, that they don't believe in the supernatural, and that they practice Shinto-Buddhist rituals mostly because it's part of their culture—the same way plenty of American atheists celebrate Christmas or, I don't know, knock on wood to avoid bad luck or whatever. Yes, religious identity outside of the Abrahamic faiths doesn't work the same way as it does in Christianity, Islam, and most forms of Judaism. And that's worth remembering. But does that mean that people who tell you they aren't religious actually are? No that's fucking dumb.

Anyway...

[thevixenwitch]

Having some thoughts on paganism and loss of identity this holiday season.

It felt so easy to study paganism back when I was younger, and while I wouldn't ever call myself a Wiccan these days, I did always appreciate the concept of a year and day of study. I feel like I have to start from scratch after being separated from my community and not feeling inspired for a year or two now really... it gets overwhelming to sort through what's problematic, what's realistic, what's a misrepresentation. At every corner I see Llewellyn books that I know are more likely to contain appropriation than not, and sometimes it feels like that's all there is.

Add in being ND and finding it extremely difficult to focus when there's SO much information out there. I want to find my family's roots, but don't know enough to search for family trees, and am not super excited to sell access to my DNA. I've always been told we were Scottish, but it feels bad to research too deeply into any tradition without knowing our actual connection.

I know what I am, and I'm trying to start by reconnecting to those roots. But also what I am was banned from the family Christmas for years and very traumatized from the treatment as a non-Christian for many years. I find myself deeply missing my community in Texas, who are more family than many I've had even if I have been too traumatized to be able to express that. I don't know what family should or does look like... I don't know what a holiday should look like, either.

I think of family holidays as a teen and I think of my mom telling me I wasn't welcome, being told I was going to burn in hell, who even knows why at that point. Too queer, too mentally ill, too weird, too bad for reputations, too many questions.

I find myself looking forward to things I cant do anymore; community Sabbats at my previous local UU, PNO, Spirit Haven... things just aren't the same here. It's hard to find purchase on unstable ground... churches on every street corner never change, but the pagan community here is different and we just haven't found our place yet. There's a public Norse Altar in the works, but they've been vandalized and stolen from in the process... I'm so wary of anyone calling themselves Wiccan with all the appropriation and casual racism I've witnessed over the years, and it's hard to know who's put in the work to be aware and deconstruct.

I'd love if anyone could make reading suggestions for renewed study. I am open to Celtic, learning about anything Scottish, Norse, and Greek, as well as modern American-influenced traditions and how they've evolved!

[tsunflowers]

I think this must have been a text post my brother saw and brought up to me but I’m still thinking about it even though I haven’t seen the original post. it’s that if every character played by a Jewish actor was canonically Jewish we would have a hell of a lot more Jewish characters in media

I feel like in American media the default is a kind of passive cultural Christianity and any deviation from that is considered to be a unique character trait that has to be explained. even if a character mentions going to church that makes them Religious and you now have to write them as a Religious Character, to say nothing of the weird baggage that gets attached to characters who are members of non-Christian religions. but at the same time it’s just assumed that everyone will want to play Christmas carols at an office holiday party in December. obviously religion is very meaningful and a huge part of many peoples lives but people need to break away from stereotypes and not define characters by their religion. you can be a Christian welder or a Muslim physicist or a Jewish scuba diving instructor and it doesn’t have to be a joke it’s just two traits a person can have

I think I’ve seen backlash in the past regarding characters who drop a line like “Diwali is that weekend so I can’t” or “I have a bar mitzvah to go to” and have no further exploration of their faith but I’d kind of like to see more of it. anything to break up the assumption of Christian as default

[consolecadet]

I'm feeling slightly less seething Christmas hatred than usual this year. I've reached a point where, though I still strongly dislike a lot of things about Christmas, I can separate out the different bits and not let the ones I hate make me cranky about the ones I like.

Like. . .I despise Christmas music, "ugly sweaters", the Salvation Army, jingly little bells, eggnog, candy canes, big hunks of ham, Christmas media, the crushing expectation that you must put on the cheerful rictus of The Christmas Spirit, elves (Santa can stay but only if he's gay), most Christian conceptions of religious entities, people's assumptions that you have a pleasant and uncomplicated relationship with your family of origin, the planet-burning American culture of consumption, proselytization, those new LED string lights that make your front lawn look like a gamer lair, etc, etc, etc.

But I do like peppermint bark, the smell of balsam fir, cheese plates, a short visit to my parents' nice house where trans people outnumber cis people 2:1 and I can always get into my car and drive away, knowing my sister will cherish any lesbian-themed objects I give her, incandescent string lights, neatly wrapping presents with nice paper and double-sided tape, and I guess Die Hard.

My local Buy Nothing group means I no longer have nearly as much of a guilt spiral about receiving gifts I dislike. I believe I've finally gotten my father to stop giving me novelty socks and awful plasticky novelty band-aids. (Actually, maybe I'm giving myself too much credit. I just realized the store where he bought his most irritating gifts closed permanently in 2020.) I also just don't take it as personally when people give me something that betrays a major misapprehension of who I am. It's not like I make it easy for people to know me, especially my parents.

I think part of what's making this time of year less psychologically harrowing is that 1) I got to do Christmas and Hanukkah with KC and without my parents last year, and thus reject within our apartment everything I hated while keeping the menorah and peppermint bark and 2) I spent some time this year trying to practice Judaism in ways my dad was not interested in sharing with me when I was growing up, and figured out what I did/didn't like or value about certain aspects of Jewish religious practice.

It seems very obvious that if I can give up on learning Hebrew because it's upsetting and difficult for me and have a seder with gluten-free matzo that doesn't halachically qualify as Real Matzo, I can absolutely also banish the concept of Christ and all renditions of Silent Night from my home while enjoying smelling a tree in there.

It's extremely common to be a child of an agnostic interfaith couple who did not give you a connection to any kind of faith community and left you with lots of baggage about it. I don't have to wait to fix my feelings about that before I can participate in any holiday or religious practice, and probably HAVE to try participating with a modicum of vulnerability if I want to change anything. Also none of these things materially affect Israel's genocidal behavior unless I, like, buy my parents SodaStream canisters for Christmas.

It probably also helps that I left the job where my boss expected extreme enthusiasm at all times and took any doubt or questions as personal affronts. I read The Promise of Happiness and no longer feel like affect alienation is a personal failing on my part. I feel far less bitter, resentful, and hateful about Christmas if I don't let people pressure me to be (or perform being) sweet, cheerful, and loving about it.

Fuck the Elf on the Shelf though. That's just weird.

[maddiviner]

i think it's okay to leave out the UPG disclaimer when someone is acting like their UPG is universally correct. especially when it's as wildly blatantly ahistorical and made-up as the hecate person's (don't remember her username because i IMMEDIATELY blocked her). also when you use your UPG to demand other people practice a certain way

I thought about it a bit after I posted that.

IMHO? None of what she posted counts as unverified personal gnosis. Reason being that UPG is by definition the kinda thing that you can't disprove, exactly. If you're making false claims about objective, known history, that doesn't count. That's just called lying, either to yourself, or other people, sorry.

UPG is also personal. It's one thing if other people find your UPG compelling and join in on their own. It's also, IMHO, appropriate to share it if you're comfortable. If you're trying to force it on other people as the absolute truth, it really stops just being your UPG, and it's a jerk move. This is, obviously, especially true if the claims are ahistorical nonsense (which, again, doesn't count as UPG).

How I view this might piss people off, but I'm going to break down my views. I'm open to discussion of course, but this is just how I use the phrase ("unverified personal gnosis," I mean).

Some different UPG-ish things I've heard over time...

A certain Goddess considers me Her daughter in a spiritual/metaphysical sense. She expects certain things of me.

Humans all contain a lil piece of the Divine. I will work on connecting with that by prayer/meditating/whatever.

Reincarnation is real (or not real).

After death, I will join my loved ones in the Summerlands/etc to rest or something similar.

Everything above is, IMHO, UPG. I say that because it's unfalsifiable and personal. It's not ahistorical, nor does it conflict with physical reality. And, in the situations where I saw the above comments, it wasn't presented as absolute fact.

Some things that definitely don't qualify as UPG for the reasons I've mentioned...

Rather than originally being a Greek Goddess, Hekate was actually Scottish-Irish human woman who was murdered by men. (This was the original claim by the OP, actually.)

Jesus revealed to me in a dream that the earth is actually flat. The truth is being concealed by elite reptilians.

The Christian holiday of Easter connects to the Sumerian Goddess, Ishtar. Ancient pagans worshiped Her in springtime with eggs and bunnies.

I was burned at the stake in Europe as a witch in the 1700s along with the rest of my Wiccan coven. I reincarnated as a witch again.

None of the above is UPG. It's misinformation instead. You can look at historical/scientific sources and prove it's inaccurate.

I found the concept of UPG hard to grasp initially. I think some others do, too. Many of us are coming from or steeped in more organized religions.

I don't think a lot of them, at least in the pervasive American sorta Christianity, have anything like UPG? I mean, I didn't see much of it. So, it's kinda been a new concept for some, and a lot of us have to feel our way around it a bit.

Another thing I wanna add? UPG isn't always healthy or good even if it does quality as UPG. Some ways of thinking about the world just work better, I guess, and that applies across the board. A lot of UPG tends to be very fluid and adaptable, I've noticed, which I think is good.

The Hecate person is kinda funny because she just posted this huge spiel about how she knows she's doing it right now that she has "haters" and called us all ignorant "heathens" (her words) for not accepting her divine truth straight from God's Hekate's mouth.

The idea of someone who claims to be pagan using "heathen" as an insult is just... weird. I know there's probably some kinda discourse around the word but... still.

Someone I talk with on Facebook commented that it's weirdly Protestant?! Similar to how Jesus gets portrayed. You've got a divine being that was, uhhh, actually from a completely different culture being portrayed as Scottish/Irish, Greek roots being erased. Said divine being was somehow also incarnated as a human, and martyred? And then we have a prophet, too! Sounds super similar to me, too, now that I start to think about it in those terms, but I didn't notice before.