#I will be very disappointed if the writers go the ‘Armand edited all of Louis’s s1 memories’ route

[if-you-built-yourself-a-myth]

I agree, the rocks are very representative of Louis’s mental state, in parallel to the conversation he and Armand have at the end of the book. Armand has a vested interest in removing Louis from those memories (and says so, when he assures Daniel that Louis could remove the rocks from his feet whenever he wants), because Armand needs Louis to provide the love and happiness that will fulfill Armand in this new era. Louis chooses to keep the rocks, symbolically trapping himself in that Parisian coffin.

To continue on that, I’ve seen Louis’s lack of colored clothing used as evidence that Armand controls what he wears. However, from what we’ve seen in San Fran, it does appear that Louis picks his own clothing since being with Armand (and they both wear color in that sequence). I think it’s more likely that the lack of color in Dubai demonstrates dissatisfaction/lack of love in their relationship rather than being a literal manifestation of Armand’s selfishness. In the book, their conversation reaches a point where Armand admits he wanted Louis to connect him once more with passion and humanity, whereas Louis needed Armand’s unrepentant vampirism and vampiric knowledge to quell his own guilt. They’ve met in a middle space where neither can get what they wanted from the other, and I think that prison-cell design of their penthouse is meant to make that idea symbolically evident.

Obviously, Armand and Louis’s relationship is toxic and based on Armand’s selfish desire. I do think, though, that pieces of set design have been characterized as Armand’s abuse when they were meant to be symbolic nods toward characters’ mental states. It does not particularly serve the writers to make Armand a worse abuser than he is in the books, especially if they want to go the Devil’s Minion route in upcoming seasons.

Wait a minute, are people under the impression that the grounding meditation rocks were Armand's idea?

Sure, the magnolia tree was Armand's (implied through dialogue and bc it's gone once Armand leaves) but Armand clearly doesn't like Louis keeping the coffin rocks in his feet, so why would he suggest such a tangible reminder of that specific trauma?

Also, in the VERY LAST SCENE of S2, we see that not only did the rock pit survive Louis's redecoration, but he's still doing the barefoot meditation thing.

The rocks are Louis's, not Armand's!

[williamaltman]

I'm gonna talk more about the episode later (including some positive stuff) but, right now I just want to say I'm really disappointed that apparently there's really not gonna be any retcon/reveal/whatever that Lestat actually wanted to make Claudia/was happy with the idea of having her as a daughter when Louis came with her.

I mean, on this episode they brought a version where Lestat was *even more* against the idea and is completely miserable about it, and, it does seem to be fake for the purposes of the trial, but... Louis then says it's actually closer to the truth?

And even if he's wrong, if this is not supposed to be believed like it seems at first glance (tbh I don't think he even meant that the whole thing was right, more just that Lestat told him it was wrong to turn a child), then this is already meant as the different "wronger" version meant to highlight the previous version as more real. Either way the difference is Lestat being annoyed and mildly reluctant vs Lestat being passionately against it and miserable when having to do it, which is like, a lose lose situation.

What I wanted from the beginning was to see a version where, at the very least, Lestat is happy with the idea when he realizes Louis means for her to be their daughter. Like I've said before, this is very easy to do. All you need to do is have him smile and appear excited or pleased when he says "...a daughter" and goes on to do it. Which is still not even close to the book version where he's the one to come up with the whole idea in the first place, but it would be at least one step closer and overall frame their (Lestat and Claudia) relationship in a more positive light from the beginning.

I'm happy with the crumbs we got on the trial, really, but it's not enough to me if besides reaffirming the narrative of her turning they're (possibly) going even further into Lestat being against it.

I know what people are gonna say, that in season 3 it's gonna be revisited again, with Lestat's reeaal perspective, but I really don't think so. This seems to be the revisiting already. I think it'd be kinda ridiculous to have a third version of the scene, and even if there is, that's not to say it's necessarily gonna be something more akin to what I think it should.

With the fact that they already showed more of the "fight" too, including making Lestat more sympathetic (which is clearly not fake considering the fact that LESTAT LITERALLY WENT OFF SCRIPT to express his guilt over it, how wrong he knows it was and to not let Santiago dismiss it), I think this means that the writers are more intent on their version of things than some people imagine when the idea of revisiting things and showing other POVs comes up.

I know that we most likely will learn of more things Armand might have changed in Louis' memories, but, this one at least is clearly not gonna be one of them. Armand's mind edits would be more focused on Lestat as a lover than something like Claudia's creation, and if anything I think he would be more likely to alter things to make Lestat more willing to break the rules rather than less.

I'm sure we'll hear about how much Lestat loved her, how devastated he was over her death and how he saw himself in her (especially since we already got a bit of that on the trial), but I think her turning is always gonna be "Lestat doesn't want to break the rules or ~have a third~ in his relationship Louis" which imo is such a misrepresentation of him and his dynamic with Claudia. The fact that even after Marius' warnings he didn't give a fuck? That's Lestat. It seems like if anything the writers want to make him *less bad* by not doing that (which is weird considering some of their choices in the opposite direction), by having him being somewhat responsible for a moment, but him not caring because he wanted her so bad and still not regretting it even after everything is so much more important.

Even if they do the "And I cannot say even now that I regret Claudia" it's not gonna ring true to me, because even if he misses her there's not much to regret in the first place when the responsability is like 90% on Louis in the show canon...

This is all water under the bridge in a way since it's mostly just how I've felt since 1x04, but, you know, with the idea of revisiting things and showing different versions I ended up getting some hope of it being changed and now it hasn't. Maybe there's really a third version and this will age like milk, but right now I don't think so.

[nalyra-dreaming]

I could be wrong, but right now I'm imagining Lestat's "interview" being multi-media. There probably will be an in-universe book, but I think the story will be told to us through a combo of music and (maybe docu-style?) interviews with memory-based flashbacks in between. I'd be surprised (and frankly super disappointed!) if Daniel didn't participate in some way. He said he wanted to do more books, and was obviously very curious to meet Lestat. Mind you, if Lestat objected to Louis' memoir so much, he may distrust Daniel or have mixed feelings about him. We don't even know if Lestat's issues with the memoir were to do with Louis' faulty/skewed retelling, or the changes made by Daniel's "editors". But Daniel did say "no editors this time", and it's hard for me to believe that him and Lestat won't cross paths, or that the writers would pass up an opportunity to have those two interact! So, there's no doubt in my mind that Daniel would try to set up an interview, but do you think Lestat would play along, or would prefer to tell his story by himself?

I have a feeling the editing of the Talamasca may come heavily into play wrt the whole story of drawing out Lestat and such... we'll see. But I do expect Daniel to be involved, yes. I said it before, it did seem to me as if Daniel recognized the voice before, so who knows, maybe something happened before... we'll see. But Lestat in the present would definitely know immediately Daniel was Armand's fledgling and that alone would make him interested in Daniel, and more open to tell Daniel his story, I think.

As per the music and story itself, I talked about this earlier here:

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hi Nalyra!

Could you please expand on what you mean by ‘huge potential there’ regarding Louis and Daniel possibly getting the TOTBT-plot next season? If that is what you mean? Would love to know what you speculate? Plz do tell! Of course it’s very early days, but I think you’re right if you think they are doing that plot at some point - Rolin basically flat out said so I think? And Raglan James' whole deal and him asking for reciprocation is a still an unresolved plot line (I know some people think it’s the Talamasca getting to edit the book, but they always had that opportunity when they became Daniel's only potential publisher).

However, do you really think that plot takes place before Louis' and Daniel's conversation at the end of the last episode? I just don’t’ really get the sense that they have been on another separate ‘adventure’ already there. Also wouldn’t it be too confusing to have that episode imply that Armand turned Daniel in Dubai to then change it so drastically? Sure the show sometimes shows one thing and then reveals another to be the case, but i don't know… It also doesn't seem to be the case in light of Rolin's comments. I'm happy to be wrong though!

I do personally think Daniel's turning is a disappointment, as it occurs off-screen and may have been out of spite/hatred. Also because if DM didn't happen in the past that means we lose out completely on a humanDaniel/VampireArmand relationship dynamic, as they've already turned Daniel. Which makes me a bit sad, as a lot of the most important aspects around DM is kinda built around that. And if they are doing an enemies-to-lovers thing instead, that’s even more reason to show the turning - as it mirrors ep5 and becomes a vital part of their relationship story. I just find it so weird to skip that completely (I understand skipping it in ep8 but then say they won’t revisit it at all is disappointing, and a bit boring writing frankly). But I’m trying to have faith in that the show writers know what they are doing and that the DM relationship will be interesting and actually explored.

All this to say that I like the idea that there might be more to Daniel’s turning - I really liked the idea of them doing it in connection with TOTBT plot. But given that Daniel has already been turned I don’t think they are going to have him in some way be turned again. Of course one alternative would be to have that plot have taken place already, but given Louis and Daniel’s conversation at the end of ep8 I don’t think so? I don’t have any idea on how they might do TOTBT though, nor what Louis’s and Daniel’s plots will be about next season. Rolin did say they were setting up plots for them in interviews.

Would love to hear your thoughts! Thank you!

I definitely think there is more to Daniel's turning. There might be more to Daniel's turning than Louis knows, too!! I mean, Louis says it was "out of spite" - but we know Louis' memories were edited, and especially around that time frame of San Francisco back then. Louis... might simply not know.

Personally I think part of DM happened in the past... and the inverse chase might happen in the present. I'd love that, actually^^. It would open up the mirroring in a really nice way, too, while keeping the dynamic extremely interesting, in both past and present.

If TtotBT happened already, or if Daniel is really a vampire already? We'll see :)

As per TtotBT:

The thing about doing that plot with Louis and Daniel, and maybe omitting David and even Gretchen is the following (which >I< find extremely interesting):

We know they want to keep Louis more involved. Louis and Lestat have that weird "Netflix and chill era" then in the books. They visit each other, often. Have stuff at each other's houses. And so on. By not "only" keeping Louis for the scene later in the story where Lestat wants him to turn him again, Louis is then (likely) pulled into the whole sickness and seeing Claudia phase. The trouble with Marius (that is only hinted at in the book but might be expanded in the show).

Daniel and Louis both are strong enough to find ways to do the chase, and as said before, personally I wonder if the changing eye colors of Daniel have something to do with the "proof of concept" that Rolin hinted at when he said he would need to establish the concept of a soul.

Now, you need the concept of a soul for body switching, spirits, and, of course ghosts (and the Memnoch adventure I guess, but I doubt they'll do that one).

Claudia's ghost being there, and being something Lestat sees would be a huge pull for Louis. In the books he suffers from the fact that he never saw her (until the end of Merrick, and it is debatable if that was really her ghost then).

Daniel in turn would be along of course because he has relations with Raglan - maybe he even let Raglan experiment with body switching before, hence the changing eye color. I think there is a high chance this might be the "favor" Raglan asks of him. And then, when Raglan knows he can... he steals Lestat's body.

Which would make Daniel in part responsible, or at least he might feel that way. I think he and Lestat will get along like a house on fire actually, at least eventually, and him then being responsible for maybe introducing? Facilitating? the theft might be the reason why he tags along.

Daniel, with his already established connections to the Talamasca might be the one to connect to their side - while Louis will maybe be the one to.... soften the blows from the vampiric side. We'll see.

A lot will depend on whether the show will actually "have David" - and in what capacity.

But I think, as said, that the changing eye color likely was a hint... and I don't think show Louis would stay away, even if he would hold to his principles - especially not if he knows Lestat sees the ghost of their daughter.

[nalyra-dreaming]

Thanks for answering my ask! Re the trial-louis-lestat choice.

I understand what you mean about picking up on the clues, but clues are not enough to make a canon. Season 3 will hopefully bring more clarity that would be much welcome! One of the reasons why I am being wary and not yet believe that these theories will come to fruition largely has to do with the season two revisits.

They chose to revisit two scenes, one of which quite literally dichotomized the fan base (and actually turned some fans away from the series altogether). During the wait for season two people were swearing up and down that the revisit would set this right somehow and that there were hints (lestats immaculate appearance during the drop etc) that this did not take place at all and it was a fake memory inserted by armand.However that did not happen and in 2x7 the drop became accepted canon. (They may add more explanation behind the why of it but that's another thing to theorize about)

Instead the revisits were shown to be the two moments of truth during the sham of a trial and they were focused on lestat being made to appear more vulnerable and indeed more like the "victim" like the narrative the script was trying to push. Not sure if these crucial moments showing louis to be unreliable had to be shown to us in the middle of a script meant to lynch him, but then again it falls in line with the overall theme of the episode and season two 😅

I fully agree with you that the manipulation from armand played a huge role in louis' psyche and choices, I do though get the feeling that the writers wanted to sort of muddle his character too and show he is part of the problem with the choices he made in his relationship with armand and lestat. Having both parents have a hand in claudias death is also A Choice (slightly raised eyebrow here).

Either way I really hope that by season 3 they don't take the he- said- she -said route, and we get both flashbacks and backround information! There is much more to explore behind these events (especially where leatat is concerned) and I really hope they go for it!

Thanks for reading!!

Hey,

sure :)

You’re right, clues are not enough to make canon, but… that’s the point. We do not have CANON yet. We do not have the truth... yet.

The writers said in November 22 that they would revisit, and yes, you are right, a lot of people - myself included - thought that would be more … let’s call it direct.

But they chose the very subtle approach there once more, AND they chose to return to the books in setup, something I did indeed not anticipate.

Season one was like a breath of fresh air. Making Louis more, pulling up the so-called subtext, breaking the book structure up and also the setting, as well of the backgrounds. They incorporated things from multiple books in s1 alone already: IWTV, TVL, QotD, Memnoch, Merrick and Prince Lestat.

I had expected that they would continue like that, but they returned to the book structure, and quite… closely too. That expectation I was wrong about, and subsequently also about the (depths of the) reveals, granted.

Because: By returning to the book structure they also returned to the narrative views for a while longer at least, to the uncertainty of what Louis knows - and what he does not know. Which goes for the audience as well.

I think, I, like a lot of people, had expected different for s2. And while I loved s2 in general that part has left me disappointed, as said before.

I said it before, I think the drop happened as it stands now, however I fully expect them to go back to those minutes, add context, and if I'm right the dragging outside will have significance in later seasons. But, you HAVE to remember - what you have seen of the trial, was also a memory. An edited memory, to a large part, because we do have the trial script. And that is, right now, our only source of actual proof which contradicts reliably.

So right now I am interpreting it all within the clues we got. You said it yourself, some things do not match.

By now I am quite sure that they will continue like that - to write clues in, but will not care to spell it all out.

And, as said before, >I< would have preferred that another way. It makes the show very clever, yes. It makes it intricately layered, also yes.

But it also makes it so much harder to get truth, and while this show is probably made better for not giving us said truth, the fandom would desperately need it, imho.