#I was just watching remake lets plays and whenever tifa or barret are talking it looks like cloud's thoughts have completley stopped

[mrcatlion]

Midgar core party vibe doodle when my pen pressure driver died

[iaintyourbro]

Shipping Makes Me Question My Sanity

I learned about the FFVII waifu wars after playing the remake. I played the OG many moons ago, replayed it a few years ago, but really got interested in the character dynamics after playing FFVIIR. 

I foolishly looked up “Is the remake pushing Cloud and Tifa more?” I found the shipping wars... That I never knew existed. 

You see, I played the OG and it was pretty clear to me that the story went a certain way. In fact, I didn’t even associate FFVII to romance. 

FFVII was a story about a villain who was pissed off that a grunt killed him, so he finds a way to come back from the dead through clones that his father made to fuck with said grunt and get revenge on all the humans that wronged his Mother. 

(This is my explanation in as few words as possible, because we all know explaining FFVII would take multiple posts). 

So why did I look up my question about Cloud and Tifa? Well, I was shocked at how they presented them. I didn’t remember this from the OG. Like I said, I didn’t associate FFVII to romance like I did with VIII, IX, and X. Those were clear. FFVII didn’t have this as a main theme. FFVIIR created extreme sexual tension between Cloud and Tifa. 

I remember when you finally found out Cloud wasn’t a SOLDIER, that he actually DID kill Sephiroth 5 years ago, and that he did come to save Tifa - he fulfilled his promise. The part when the main theme plays and he takes his helmet off... chills. Even now, I love that part. Still, I associated this with us finally getting answers to some of the weird shit that happens earlier in the game. And I was way too young and dense to understand the Under the Highwind scene. 

Needless to say, I wanted to see if others had the same impression. It seems they did, and those posts were then overpowered by the other side. “Yeah, I used to ship Cloti, but the remake made me see that it’s clearly Aerith.” What? What did I miss? 

So I questioned my sanity a bit. I played every quest - I did both Tifa and Aerith’s discovery quests. Until the point we get back to Tifa in Wall Market, I still was kind of iffy on how they were presenting Aerith and Cloud. They removed a lot of stuff from the OG that was a bit more direct from Cloud’s end. They also removed a lot of the jealousy scenes between Tifa and Aerith. Seems they gave all the jealousy to Cloud in other scenes. 

Cloud clearly is soft with Tifa. He remembers The Promise, he calls her beautiful, you have no choice but to give her the flower. No matter what choices you make with Aerith. He still gives her the flower. He gets jealous whenever he even thinks a guy is talking about her in a romantic/sexual way.

Then I see things like “Cloud was so emotionless and mean until Chapter 8″. HOW? And this goes beyond Tifa. Cloud had a ton of character growth during the first 3 chapters, and it continued on until Chapter 8. This was not something where he suddenly turned nice to Aerith. He had a ton of people help him out before.

Take Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie. Cloud was a dick to them. I mean, he really was. I was sad for Wedge, cuz I think he’s so nice, and Cloud was just mean to him. By the end of Chapter 4, he’s much nicer to them. He’s left out of their celebration, and I think maybe this was a reference to him as a child. He thought he was better than the other kids (except Tifa). He treated everybody like shit (except Tifa) in the first three chapters and Barret told him to gtfo. 

Jessie made sure to let him know she wanted him there. Now, I’m not a fan of how thirsty Jessie is. I mean they REALLY slam it on you how bad she wants to get with Cloud. Cloud then says what I was thinking “Are you seriously that desperate?!” Yes, she is, and it’s obnoxious, but I think it’s a hilarious addition to the story. However, I think it was a light bulb moment that he would be included if he was a bit nicer to people.

Cloud and Barret start getting along more as time goes on as well. This is all before Chapter 8. So I actually have commented on these posts... “Did you play the first 7 chapters? Did you play the rest of the game?” There’s so many points during FFVIIR where Cloud clearly has character development outside of what Tifa and Aerith do. 

They ignore this. That’s my issue. The ignore everything else in the story. They ignore reality, so that makes people like me question themselves.

It reminds me of a personal situation with my job. We had a really bad leader. Like, cruel, mean. And he got away with it for a long time. You can say, “just leave”, but I think anybody with a family knows that’s not as easy as it sounds. Not when you rely on your job for not only income, but benefits, retirement, and stability. Not when changing buildings causes months of legit mental breakdowns (imagine changing companies completely?). So, it wasn’t really an option.

The worst part during all of that was knowing and seeing the reality of what was going on and having people flat out try to tell me that what I was seeing wasn’t true. I had conversations with other co-workers who started to question their sanity. Is it us? Are we the problem? Are we wrong? What are we missing? And that’s tough, especially when it goes on for so long.

In the real life example, there was a resolution earlier this year, where finally the guy was fired. And a lot of people were fighting him. More than you’d think. But they were scared, so they had to be careful. This is real life, not a game, so the stakes were much higher. The truth all comes out after this type of thing, and it was actually worse than we thought. There was a lot we missed, and a lot we just weren’t aware of. We weren’t crazy - there was just a group of his followers trying to brainwash us in to thinking he was great. 

The shipping wars give me the same feelings I had during that. I question my sanity and don’t get what I’m missing. This is beyond how you interpret the LTD. This is legit ignoring parts of the story as it’s presented. SE put these Cloti moments throughout the Remake to make a point. They have Aerith say things to make a point. They even have Aerith stop making moves on Cloud after Tifa comes back and she sees the obvious “thing” between them.

There are tons of analysis on multiple scenes and how Cloud reacts. Facial expressions tell a lot, so does voice acting. There are reasons they put these scenes in. There are reasons they are part of the main story and not part of side quests. There are reasons that the devs responded the way they did in interviews. 

The Ultimania clearly talks about Cloud’s feelings. The OG talks about them. 

So why do I still feel upset when I see these? Well, for one, the posters that say “I was a Cloti until..” in most cases are probably shipping the other side, but this is a great way to make people question themselves. It may make new fans not enjoy the story as much.

Then you have Twitter. And it’s a shame, because there’s some great fanart on Twitter. But, you can’t search for “tifa” without seeing some really bad posts. And it’s the same accounts over and over. There isn’t a large amount. 

The entire goal of these posters is to fight people who don’t agree with them. They also start posting similar complaints about a week after the Cloti side makes them.

The most recent being that Cloti fans are going after Nojima and it’s not going to change anything. What? I saw a similar post about the C////erith side about a week or two ago. Why are Cloti’s going after Nojima? So I went through some of his posts. I found one where he posted about FF7R. The only Cloti posts I saw were thanking him. The C///erith ones were over the top trying to say how it was all C///erith and there was no Cloti in the remake. One even said that “millions of fans want Aerith to survive.” No, I’d say the majority of fans want the original plot points to stay. 

Nojima himself liked a fanart of himself... where they called him the Cloti king.

So where are the Cloti’s going after Nojima? I only saw praise... 

The next new one is that C///eriths aren’t racist and Cloti’s are. I’ve seen this argument in reverse as well. It seems they scope out some things and repost them in the opposite argument. 

I just don’t understand the extreme nature. You can ship who you want, but you can’t erase parts of the story to make it work. Why even bother playing the game? The romance aspect is SO SMALL in the OG. 

In the remake its a bit heavier, but it’s different times. Sex sells. Let’s add some spice to the game, and they did. I felt no sexual tension between Cloud and Aerith. Jessie tried HARD. The only mutual tension felt was between Cloud and Tifa. That deep, dear lord please do something to release this tension, feeling. Cloud and Aerith had cute little moments similar to a Disney movie or a kids movie. Tifa and Cloud had the moments you see in more mature things. 

Some of these moments are optional - the resolution scene you can technically avoid every time you play if you choose to. The Clotiscrew tunnel roll is a bit harder unless you KNOW you can avoid it and/or are terrible at the game. You literally have to try hard to mess up to not get that scene. 

The Clotiscrew tunnel scene is also hilarious to watch people react to. Cuz you do feel like you need to take a quick walk to cool off from that heat. Even my husband who doesn’t give a shit was like “wow, yeah, okay, that’s... intense.” 

It didn’t have to be, it could have been a roll and release, but he holds her and says “You okay?” in that soft af voice THAT HE ONLY USES ON HER. Her response is equally sexy. Then they get up and stare. Once again, not necessary.

All the “unnecessary” touching that goes on is fun to point out. People are still finding moments, I think. During battles, in the background during other scenes. They’re making this a point. They make it a point to show shots of those two during other scenes in the game. They aren’t being subtle anymore. 

So I don’t understand how you can erase all of that. 

The other side has a small group that is completely shitting on Tifa to do it. I don’t see that as much on the Cloti side towards Aerith. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, I bet it does, but it’s not as easy to find. Almost EVERY shipping fight has something about Tifa’s boobs, Tifa not telling Cloud about his past, something. They make stuff up in some cases.

All of this is a way to recruit people to their side. To “convert” them. I feel bad for the streamers who like Tifa and you see a group come in to try and “correct” that thought. Why do they care so much? 

Maximillian Dood doesn’t seem affected by those opinions - he’s a great supporter of Tifa as a character. He was very happy with the way they handled the remake, and that says a lot. He also has some great reactions to parts of the game. He also is a more experienced streamer, it seems.

My thoughts are... the Remake has blown expectations on how it was supposed to go. Probably a lot of fans assumed they’d make a point to build up Aerith as the love interest... but they didn’t. Tifa is in almost every chapter (2 is the exception). She is referenced multiple times in Wall Market - especially if you actually listen to the lyrics for Midgar Blues. Why place that song in during that part? 

So we go to the attack mode of survival here. They’re going to change as many opinions as possible. They’re going to make people question themselves. Make people feel bad. 

The reality is, there’s a clear cut story - they’re making it that way. There’s multiple hints that there isn’t going to be a love triangle. There’s multiple hints that Zack is going to be a thing in the Remake. They’ve definitely put it on more heavy that Aerith still loves Zack. 

I can only hope that things are made clear. That this can stop. I still say people should ship who they want. Hell, I ship Vincent and Lucrecia (this was my only romantic love in the OG back then...). However, canon is that Hojo and Lucrecia married and had a child. I wanted Vincent to secretly be the father so bad, but he’s not. That doesn’t ruin the game for me, at all. 

It would ruin the game for me, in a sense, if they completely pull a 180 in Part 2 and try to “remove” all of the stuff from Part 1 from a character dynamics perspective. It would feel wrong for Aerith to tell Cloud not to fall in love with her, tell him that everything isn’t real if he does, and also have her back off completely after Tifa is back, and then all of a sudden throw herself at him. It would erase all the friendship scenes between Tifa and Aerith.

And how could you just “turn off” Cloud’s attentive nature to Tifa? It wouldn’t make sense. It would ruin it for me because that is legit trying to erase parts of the story.

I don’t think that will happen. But I still get anxious when I see shit on the internet.

[silver-wield]

Morning yall! Time for your daily dose of delusion destruction! This time we're focusing on second best bros, Cloud and Barret! (because Barret and Red is brotp, I don't make the rules I just follow them lol)

Ok, spoiler warning for ppl who haven’t played – do I still need to do this? Eh ok, (I tag FF7R spoilers as final fantasy 7 remake spoilers) and it’s gonna be middling.

Also, this is one person’s interpretation of the scene, so if you disagree that’s cool and we’ll agree to disagree.

You’re also gonna have to excuse the janky quality on some of the screens, I’m grabbing them from Youtube and it’s frustrating af trying to get the exact moment I want.

Please check my master post to see if I've already covered your question, thanx

Let's mosey!

Sorry for the no cut, I'm on my phone, so I'll have to add it later.

This line. Eugh. I've seen so much damn romantic coding thrown at it I'm sick to my back teeth how people ignore literally every other relationship Cloud has with people.

This is not about Aerith.

This is about Barret.

Remember? This is what happened like five minutes prior to this line. Cloud literally lost his friend. Another one. And right after he saw a simulation of that same friend dead after being forced to watch the girl he loves get killed. Again. Because he thought Tifa died in Nibelheim and that grief is still in him.

In the last couple of weeks, to Cloud, he's lost his mom, his home, Tifa and Zack. In the last day he's lost Jessie, Biggs, his new home and now Barret.

This is his goddamn expression at the time. He's frozen in place, breathing hard. He is trying so fucking hard not to cry. He's been in a very bad place emotionally through this whole bit in the Shinra building. He cried when the grunts reminded him about Zack dying. He was so terrified of Hojo he hid behind Barret and didn't say a single word until it wasn't even possible to carry out that bravado filled threat.

Cloud doesn't want to lose his friends. Every one of them is precious to him. He cherishes them all, or did we think that AC line was more dumb ship talk?

The second Barret gasps, Cloud slid to a stop. He looks back and we don't get to see his expression here or in the rest of the cut scene. It focuses on Tifa's relief, then gameplay resumes. Because I'd bet good money Cloud looks far too emotional that Barret's OK, and we're not supposed to see this much of real Cloud behind the mask.

So back to the point this makes the whole damn thing about Barret.

Cloud stops Barret from going after Rufus and comes up with a very logical reason why. The same thing he's been reminding Barret of whenever he got too over enthusiastic about busting Shinra heads. Several times Cloud says, "Stay on mission/remember our goal". It's not "oh we must save the damsel", it's mission time.

Cloud appeals to the leader in Barret. You know, the one where he literally leads a cell of Avalanche, makes sure all his people get home? That's what Cloud is referencing. It's Barret's desire to do the job and make sure everyone goes home.

Aerith is the job.

Now, if yall actually pay attention to Cloud's face like I do then you'd have noticed his eyes look suspiciously shiny during this bit. He can't quite hide that he was as broken up by Barret dying as the others were.

He knows Barret's an all guns blazing kind of guy. I mean Cloud literally jokes about "Why did we bring you along?" before they go into the building because Barret's suggestion is a full frontal assault. Then if you take the stairs you get him saying he'd choose a last stand over this.

Cloud is protecting Barret by making him leave. Because he doesn't want to lose his friend again.

And Barret understands this immediately because he looks cut up behind those sunglasses. It's a "you care about me, you lil jackass?" look and accompanies his putting his hand to the back of his head, which is a masculine gesture to convey embarrassment.

Guys (mostly) touch the back of the head or neck when they feel embarrassed or vulnerable because it's an instinct from hunter/gatherer days when they had to watch out for predators going for the back of the neck. In modern times it's become masculine body language to show emotional vulnerability.

In conclusion

This whole bit has very little to do with Aerith. She's an excuse Cloud used to save Barret. His friend. The one who just came back from the dead.

Hollow, ykno, that thing yall also think is romantically coded, speaks of if Cloud had a second chance what he'd do differently. It's not just about girls. It's about everyone he loves. Cloud loves so many people and can't bear losing them.

Ofc he'd do everything to keep them safe.

[meteorstricken]

FFVII Rare Pair Week Day 5 Prompt: Words

“Argument”

**The following is an edited-for-excessive spoilers version of a scene that will occur several chapters into my ongoing Seph/Tifa multi-chaptered fic, Un-Guilty, where a pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth is thrown into a future where he must come to terms with both himself and everything his post-Nibelheim self did. As they say in the Remake trailers, "Developmental footage subject to change."**

*****************

Tifa herded the inebriated Reno and Elena, who'd overstayed last call by about an hour, out Seventh Heaven's front door waving, "Bye, guys."

"Hey, you sure you don't need a hand...an hand with..." Reno made a gesture over his forehead in the shape of arched bangs, tripping backwards into Elena.

"Don't worry about me, Reno," Tifa reassured him. "You two should get going and take care of yourselves."

"Yeah, c'mon, Reno. Tsheng said he's mentally non...not legal. Lethal. Probably," Elena slurred, making a stumbling recovery from her near-fall.

"Elena's right. No real problems here," Tifa said, quickly shutting and locking the door. She pressed a hand against it, tilted her head back, and sighed.

Between the Turks' babysitting and Cloud's surprisingly fast-blossoming life outside her own, it might not be too long before someone ate an undeserved fist. The Turks were just being Rufus' faithful lapdogs as usual, and were at least polite enough to order something whenever they stopped in to pry, but Cloud's near-dismissal of Sephiroth's renewed presence in their lives had come as a shock. He almost never asked about him, even though word was spreading that she was keeping an eye on their former and would-be nemesis. None of his old protectiveness had reared its head. It almost felt like he didn't care. For all they’d been through, weren’t they at least still friends? They'd separated on good terms, regretfully agreeing they didn't know how to stop smothering one another. There hadn't been any serious hard feelings, or so she thought. She'd expected it to be awkward for a while, but he still mattered to her.

Maybe he was just afraid and avoiding the situation for his own good. Maybe he was trying to give her space.

Or, she might have been more of a burden to him over the long haul than she realized. Maybe that's what he was figuring out—that he was angry with her in a way he didn’t know how to confront yet. She was too afraid to ask.

Tifa wasn't so sure what she was supposed to be doing to get ahead herself. She was just going through the motions, opening and closing the bar one day after the next, helping out with Reeve’s supply coordination plans on the side, going to bed at the end of the day and getting up to do it all over again. Occasionally, Barret would drop off Marlene, and playing or teaching her how to cook was a welcomed distraction from the grind, but that was it.

Barret, who still had no idea about her newest employee, she considered. That was another bridge to cross.

Sephiroth stepped out of the kitchen, finished with the night's dishes. "If necessary, I can start leaving earlier," he offered.

"Mm. No," Tifa replied tiredly. She gave him an odd look. He must have heard Reno. “We’d already be dead if you wanted to kill us. But here you are, cleaning my kitchen in exchange for meals and chump change. The man who burned down my...probably wouldn't..." She stopped, uncomfortable, squeezing her hands together in place of coherent thoughts.

"I'll be going in a moment," Sephiroth said quietly.

Tifa winced. Her and her big mouth. "Actually, no… Let's talk."

"About?"

"You. Me. Life. How things have changed. When Cloud and I were still...living…together, we weren't so great at talking."

"I know very little about…that".

"Not even a fling back in SOLDIER, huh?" Tifa blurted, and immediately regretted it, because of what she knew about him already, and what it might seem like she was implying.

Sephiroth narrowed his eyes at her. "If Reeve has shared as much of my past with you as he's conveyed, then you know I was raised and worked under S.R.D. and Turk surveillance. I had a fan club named for me as a result. I did not care for it. They did not care for me, though I suspect Hojo's purpose for them was ultimately procreative."

Tifa grimaced, pulled down a random bottle of booze from a cupboard, and poured two double shots. Offering one to Sephiroth, she said, "On the house. We could probably both use something to take the edge off."

"...I am not susceptible to liquor."

Tifa paused. "No, I guess you wouldn't be," she admitted, flustered, retracting his glass and pouring it into hers. "Soda?"

"Water is fine," he replied, fixing her with a calculating stare. "It pains you that Cloud doesn't wish to guard you anymore," he stated plainly. "However, it grew tiresome when he did. You told Elena and Cissnei as much."

Tifa frowned and took a deep breath. "Didn't have you pegged for an eavesdropper."

"Everything for Cloud's sake," he continued, "leaving nothing for your own purpose."

Tossing back half the glass, Tifa plopped down onto a barstool and leaned forward onto the counter, glaring at him, feeling her temper flare. Memories of how, when he'd lured them up north, his other self had mocked her, threatening to use her memories against Cloud poked at the forefront of her mind. "I can play that game, too, Sephiroth. You—"

"Everything for a mother I didn't know, and no longer wish to," he interrupted sourly. "Neither of them."

Tifa stared down at her drink, already feeling tipsy and somewhat surprised. Embarrassed, actually. So he wasn't trying to provoke her; he was making a sloppy, very Sephiroth- flavored effort to relate. Using some heavy scar tissue, no less. She felt ridiculous, but the words weaseled their way out after a groan, "I wanted a silly childhood promise to be enough. For him and me. Now I’m wondering if things would have been easier on both of us if we’d never made it."

"I thought the truth of my conception would free me from what I am," Sephiroth echoed bitterly.

"I suppose what we are to someone else was always supposed to be who we are," Tifa mused, taking another sip.

"'Who' is...difficult," Sephiroth replied. "I'd rather not think much of it."

Tifa's face softened. She knew that feeling too well. So long as she'd been there for her friends and especially Cloud, thinking about her own reasons didn't matter. It was just too big to tackle. "There's a hole where 'who' is supposed to be, and no matter what I try to put in there..."

"Nothing is enough," he finished for her. "And..."

Tifa eyed him expectantly when he failed to finish. "And?”

His brows creased; a deep scowl etched into his face.

"I was--I am the one who caused you this uncertainty," he said.

"You would have been," she corrected, but instantly averted her eyes when she said it.

He would have been, and he had been. They had to contend with both realities. There was no running from it. She wanted to be understanding and fair for this version of him, but the resentful, stubborn ache that formed in the pit of her stomach when she thought back to Nibelheim was steadfast as always.

"The consequences remain. It makes no difference." A small tremor entered his voice. He shook his head, seemingly scolding himself. “Perhaps I will seek employment elsewhere,” he said.

Tifa planted her forehead on the counter and grumbled, “How am I supposed to watch you if you aren’t around?”

“My presence harms you.”

She perked back up, offended. “…You’re wrong about that.”

“Am I?”

“My memory of what you would have done is what hurts, Sephiroth,” she retorted, raising her voice. “But you know what? Maybe I am waiting for the bottom to fall out. It has to be coming, right? No, I don’t trust you. You terrify me, but you act like a wounded, frightened child. How am I supposed to feel?”

Sephiroth lowered his eyes. “Do you not trust Vincent and Reeve to monitor me?”

“It has to be me,” she insisted.

“Why?”

“I don’t owe you an explanation,” she spat. “Look…I’m sorry. Quit if you want. The W.R.O. probably has something better anyway. I don't know why I…”

He stared at her for a long moment. “Do you want me here, Tifa?”

“I…would rather have you around than not,” she conceded. “You do good work. I don’t have to double check anything, and you never complain.”

“That hardly justifies it,” he pushed back.

“It’s enough for now.”

"…Until tomorrow, then," he relented, quickly grabbed his coat, and left.