#I trust the duffers will give them a happy ending

[alreadycrazystuff]

i think the worst scenario for us byler shippers is not mileven being endgame, but rather the fact that ST ends and never confirms whether byler is canon or not. or if the duffers show that mike returns will's feelings but does nothing about it, and in the end we the audience are left questioning or creating scenarios that maybe the two ended up together... or not

[dia-depeche]

I just know that I am going to be BAWLING while watching season 5, especially when byler has their first kiss. Byler, and stranger things as a whole, mean so much to me. Like I can’t even put it into words. Stranger things is what lead me into become interested with horror, and now it’s my favourite genre of all time. I can’t explain how my life would change if I never watched stranger things, it gave me so much hope for myself. While I’ve never been physically bullied, I have definitely been verbally bullied by peers in the past, and had been labeled as “one of the weird/queer kids” and it hurt me so much back then. Seeing stranger things and having the nerds and outcasts save the day and get so much praise truly helped me realize I wasn’t as alone as I felt. And byler, holy shit. I don’t think I’ve ever related as much to two fictional characters as I have with Mike and Will. Seeing Mikes internalized homophobia made me so relieved, which sounds kinda weird, but knowing that it was an experience other kids had was so reassuring. It reminded me of my younger self. Back when all of my friends had started to get crushes on the boys, and we would huddle under playground equipment talking about them. I didn’t realize it at the time and was very in denial, but I had a big crush on my best friend, who was yapping about one of the boys in my grade. So I’d lie, and randomly picked one of the boys who they hadn’t talked about, and I said I liked him. I didn’t. I hated his guts. But the feeling to try and fit in felt so massive. Eventually as I grew up and with the support of my parents, I finally managed to admit to myself that I was in fact bi (with a huge preference for women). Mike, Will, Robin and Vickie, mean so much to me and other queer people. I love them with all of my heart. The Byler community has made me feel so welcome and loved, and I hope you guys feel the same. Even though I have my worries, I trust the duffer brothers to give stranger things the ending it deserves. (Please don’t end like the umbrella academy that was actually so bad) Thank you for reading my thoughts and have a wonderful day/evening ❤️ ALSO it’s Christmas Eve as I post this so Merry Christmas Eve and happy holidays to those of you celebrate something else!

[idioticbaguette]

So... that David thing is pretty disheartening huh.

I don't want to believe that they truly have written Will's story to be about unrequited love, but I don't really know who to trust with queer storylines anymore.

If the Duffers want to finish off their show with an obvious, repeatable, and unoriginal ending so be it. If they don't want to preach their own shows message from WITHIN THE SHOW, then who am I to complain. If the show about feeling different, being different, and embracing those differences ends with an unhealthy het couple, OVER the queer one then I truly did give the Duffers too much credit.

It hurts like hell, because it was right there, right in front of them, and they just decided to throw it out??

This show could've and still could make history, both within lgbtq+ spaces and outside of them, but I'm extremely worried that we may have trusted the wrong writers with that responsibility.

I don't believe the Duffers would change the storyline due to Noah's behavior, (btw, what the fuck?? hello?? You're a grown ass man sir, keep your horrifying political opinions in your own skull and out of the ears and eyes of impressionable children please) If they did change it, not only are they cowards, but they're idiots. If they're so worried about him, fire his ass? recast Will? But, truly I don't believe they'd do any of that to begin with.

I still want to have faith, actors ACT, they lie to the press all the time, but this one scares me. I just hope that all the young queer kids that watch st, that root for Will or byler, realize that, despite what this show may be telling you, you do not have to settle for acceptance, you don't have to settle for 2nd best. You DO NOT have to put your feelings on the line to make others happy. You can be loved, and ARE, and SHOULD BE.

And I hope that the kids who may get reinforcement that you should stay in an unhappy, unfulfilling, loveless relationship learn that it's untrue. If your partner is making you unhappy, courtesy of El, dump his ass. If you feel unloved, dumb his ass. If you think your emotions are not being taken into consideration, dump his ass. If he needs his back rubbed and positive affirmations whispered into his ear by his "best friend," before he can tell you that he loves you, dumb his ass.

Anyways, I know I'm not helping here, but have hope. Remember that we cannot be told the ending, an actor cannot give us the answer we want, especially regarding situations like these. Byler canon is still possible, and it will hit harder than before knowing how many people may have given up on it.

[storygremlin]

I just want the Duffers to know that if they give Will his happy ending with Mike, Stranger Things will officially be in my top 5 favorite tv shows of all time.

But if they fuck us over in this, which I highly suspect they will because I do not trust Hollywood at all, there will blood. I will hunt them by scent and come in the night and they will not survive me.

Excited to see what they do for S5 🥰

[milliebugydementia]

i wonder if vecna was just vecnaing specific people adjacent to the party to freak them out? like he knows that they're the only people that know about him and wanted to unveil his wicked plans in a dramatic way that would jostle them because he's very starved for attention and appreciation - i think this is why he would have picked will as the first victim because he is very similar to how he was as a kid, and he wanted to share his mind with someone else for once, have a companion to watch him tear down the world. especially cos will was already so fascinated about all things magical and otherworldly - i think some part of him thought will would admire him.

but then his other victims - chrissy, adam, patrick, and finally max. they dont really have anything in common aside from their trauma, and so whether that's supposed to be a commentary on how bad things happen to people of all backgrounds & lives (a popular girl and a popular black guy, a scrawny nerd, the three minorities) idk, but the only other thing they have in common is being close to members of the party. that could just be for screentime, but tactically it kind of feels like he's continually trying to torment the main characters of the show, cos they're the ones who already know about him, and he works his way inwards to the people around them before getting one of them. when he could have just targeted them all in one go and they wouldn't have figured out how to stop him.

i guess the reasonable explanation for this is that the duffer brothers wanted to drag out and add tension to taking out any of the main characters, especially cos they dont even have the heart to kill max in the end. and they wanted to give them a chance to actually be able to fight vecna when realistically all along he should have been able to kill any of them. idk all will be revealed.

but i do think the reason vecna would have targeted the main characters, besides just the fact that they're the only people that know about him, instead of going ham on popular and happy people like a true edgelord, is cos his frustrations with the world they live in arent matched by the gang. they're also weird freaks who managed to be well rounded and learn to be social. hes frustrated with them for not being jaded with the systems that equally rejected and hurt them, and for continuing to go about their lives within it as if they aren't freaks instead of getting swallowed whole by it like he has. like i imagine it's a kind of voldemort relationship where he gets pissed off that harry keeps fighting back like "you'll never know love or friendship" and refuses to be sucked into the very same void tom has gotten swallowed into himself, and just wants company inside of, even if that company is built on fear because it's all he can trust. like, he's very anti-humanity in general but particularly hates the humans who have been ostracised and seen the cruelty of other humans, and still maintain faith in them & in like colonialist structures. so i wonder if we'll see him get political or not? like take over hawkins, harness the power of nuclear weaponry etc.

[nausikaaa]

Idk if you missed it but Noah Schnapp came out himself as gay and has loudly been talking about how he shares that aspect with Will in canon. Will has been written as gay since s1 pitch, it's mentioned again in s2 script (ending scene), the information is literally out there for you to find. I know it's scary to trust a show again with it's rep after decades of queer baiting, I really do, but the writers aren't gonna back pedal on Will's sexuality anymore after s4, everyone involved with the show would get so much flack for it since it's been talked about by actors over and over again. But it remains to be seen how they decide to wrap up Will's story, will he get a happy ending. But him being gay is unarguably canon text.

okay, this seems like a good place to sum up my thoughts and then i won’t be engaging with this debacle any more.

so first of all i know Noah Schnapp is gay, and i’m super happy for him coming out, but i don’t think a gay actor necessarily means the character they are playing is gay, especially since Noah was cast when he was pretty young, and may not have known yet. maybe he did, maybe not. i don’t know. but it’s kind of insulting to his acting ability to imply he can’t play a character who feels and identifies a different way to him. acting is all about embodying a different person.

if he and the Duffer Brothers are discussing Will being gay in interviews and putting it in the scripts that’s also a good sign, but i don’t take interviews to be canon. to me, that’s word of god, and doesn’t count as the text of the show. my measure for whether or not something counts as visible queer rep is basically, could someone go in this show with no knowledge of who the actors or writers are, having never seen an interview or article about or, and still see that it’s gay? maybe you would argue they could through the subtext already present, but i literally watched this with my sister and she didn’t pick up on it, so not everyone can.

also, old scripts can be changed. apparently the Duffer Brothers already want to go back through previous seasons and re-record small bits of dialogue to change mistakes they made later, like changing Will’s birthday in season 2 after they forgot to acknowledge it in season 4. if those scripts were released any time after season 4 came out, i don’t trust them to be the originals one bit.

to everyone commenting and messaging saying “what, does he need to kiss a boy? does he need to say “i’m gay?” i’m so tired of coming out stories!” i get it, i do, i’m pretty over them too. but without any kind of confirmation, straight people, even ones not outwardly homophobic, can and will ignore it. i’m not asking for a coming our scene or big sweeping make out scene. but give us something. don’t you want him to come out to his mom, or his friends, or to hold hands or kiss a boy? he’s already cried, this argument is backing itself into a corner that makes it sound like you just don’t want to see happy queer experiences, you’re fine with Will being gay and miserable.

overall would love for Will to be confirmed as gay. but as you acknowledged in your message, i’ve been burned before. queerbaiting is still fairly common, and from what i’ve seen Stranger Things doesn’t have the best track record of keeping promises. did it they say before season 4 that that would be the season to explore why Will was the one originally taken to the Upside Down? i didn’t see that. and i’ve been many more people say things they thought for sure were gonna happen due to foreshadowing or interviews weren’t fulfilled.

so i, one individual who isn’t even that involved in the fandom, have decided to hold my breath. and i made one spur of the moment comment on a post that somehow snowballed into like 5 people bugging me about this for 12 hours straight. coming onto my posts and my inbox to explain subtext to me like i’m a kid. i’mm not new to this, trust me, that’s why i’m so jaded.

i know i’ll probably be ignored but can the people who have been non stop commenting at me please not go into the comments of this post trying to reignite the debate? i’m done. this is all i want to say. if you do, quite frankly that will just show me that you don’t respect my wishes, and maybe even didn’t read this post in it’s entirety, and i will just block you without reading your comment.

but if you did read all this, thanks for your time. you don’t have to agree with me, but you can clinic away and leave me with my opinions in peace. you can even wish that i’ll be proven wrong by season 5, because i would actually love to be. i’m just not holding my breath.

[starbylers]

I appreciate the fact they actually tried to make evidence-backed points but (this is so long omg sorry):

Byler only skyrocketed in popularity after s4 was released. Any claim that it becoming canon would be fan service is the real delusion. Fans love the ship because of how Mike and Will’s relationship was portrayed; the writing of the show came before the shipping. We didn't just look at two random characters and go hm imagine if they had great chemistry and a close bond and one of them was canonically in love, that was all the Duffers. We’re just picking up what they’re putting down.

Mike finding El pretty and kissing her - bisexual people exist, also wouldn’t him finding her equally as pretty with short hair just prove that he's not exclusively attracted to (stereotypical) femininity? Also, many gay people fully believe they are straight and date members of the opposite sex before figuring it out.

El calling out Mike's name in supernaturally dangerous situations just emphasises the fact their bond is rooted in trauma - she only relies on him when their lives are at stake, but when it comes to her emotional needs? She hides from him.

El knocked Max over because she made an incorrect assumption that Mike fancied Max, and then proceeded to literally run away and try to start a new life instead of just speaking to him. This is only the beginning of the unhealthy communication between them.

Mike attacking Hopper proves nothing except that he was extremely overwhelmed in that moment (and rightfully so, from his perspective El basically came back from the dead). This isn't romantic? It's a really sad scene, all of the guilt and trauma from El's 'death' that Mike has been holding in comes out here and he ends up crying while Hopper holds him saying 'you’re okay, you’re okay'.

Their 'ups and downs' include: arguing and breaking up 2 eps into the season after which Mike whines and complains about women instead of just communicating with El. And I don't want to hear that that was 'Hopper's fault' because 1) he was rightfully concerned about two 13 year olds spending all day every day doing nothing but making out, and 2) if Mike wanted to disobey Hopper, he could have. He could've just told El the truth about Hopper's threats and avoided all the drama, it really was not that serious. He ends up telling her at the sauna anyway, but El refuses to listen to him. Again, terrible communication.

Max did not induce a 'down', in their relationship, she simply told El that if Mike lies to her and doesn't explain himself, she should dump him. Like how is that bad advice? She tells her there's more to life than boys (extremely true and important, girls need girl friends), and they have so much fun together. El learns about being her own person with Max (something she canonically wasn't doing when dating Mike ('How do I know what I like?')). Their friendship is portrayed in a positive light in the show. The only contentious thing Max does is arguing with Mike about him being overcontrolling with El’s powers, but El ends up agreeing with Max.

Reconciliation = El kissing Mike while Mike keeps his eyes open and then El walks away without them discussing anything, and Mike looks extremely confused. 'He's 15' this is a TV show. All of their behaviours are meant to give you important insight into their dynamic and where the relationship is heading. And even if it was purely shock at El's words (I do think that was part of it), that doesn't equate to Mlvn endgame? Surely if Mike was truly so in love he would've been at least a little enthusiastic, even if he was surprised…?

Okay, the stuff about El's mental state at the beginning of s4 is all correct, but I'm sorry: 'she's so happy to see him that she lies just to be with him'. This is so awful??? Rinkomania was not the cute date they think it is. To love someone is to trust them to support you through hard times, and El doesn't do this.

Flowers mean nothing when the relationship is this bad. The only meaningful thing about them is the callback in the finale when El holds those same flowers, dying in her hand. Also, Mike dressed in El’s fav colours only shows Mike tries to change himself for El’s approval.

Why do they act like Mike went on this one-man crusade across the US to find El? All of them were super worried and desperate to find her, Mike did not do anything different. In fact, he’s more concerned about her dumping him than her safety (‘Mike, she’s gonna be okay’/‘I know she is…but what if, when all this is over, she doesn’t need me anymore?’).

I don't know how many times we have to reitarate this: Mike does not help her save Max. This is why I always say Mlvns literally just do not watch the show??? Mike's monologue indirectly led to Max's death (El didn’t get out fast enough), and then El used her memories of Max to revive her.

El switches hands all the time to use her powers, I've seen this take debunked on Twitter already. The hand Mike holds in the freezer, she uses it before this scene, at the helicopter explosion. And sometimes she uses two hands. This is not some 'special connection' thing, it's just a coincidence.

Their explanation of the Robin/Vickie parallel makes no sense. Robin was inbetween Vickie and her boyfriend and we know Vickie likes her back, hence why she's literally, visually, inbetween the couple. Following this logic, it makes sense Will is shown inbetween Mlvn because Mike likes him back. If it was just to show a person having a crush, Will and Robin could've had a solo shot staring longingly from a distance, but that's not what we get.

So in conclusion…everything they said either romanticised, downplayed or completely misunderstood Mike and El’s problems. Or they just speculated about what a character’s behaviours mean with nothing to back it up. Byler is endgame.

From a Mlvn’s perspective:

Here’s a person in Facebook, listing up points to why they think Mlvn is endgame. Thoughts about these?

[bylrlvr]

people i would trust enough to let them take part in creating byler’s storyline in s5:

• taika waititi. because. yes.

• shawn levy. because he has directed some of the best and most thrilling episodes. i also believe he is a byler at his core, and would not do them dirty. we thank you for your service king

• the byler fix-it fic writers. because you work harder than the devil, and your works need to be acknowledged and beautifully displayed on screen

• jeff t guy. because we need a lot of [tender, emotional music] subtitles included in s5 for obvious reasons

• taylor swift. because her songs are so bylercore, and she has a unique way of putting subtexts and coded messages in her storytelling as well

• noah schnapp. because he would put his whole schnussy into every scene with finn wolfhard and even improvise an unscripted kiss. he is a major byler, if you can’t tell by the 18372 times he has mentioned that. he is super talented too. even when the sufferbags decided to give him 10 mins of screen time in a whole season, he slayed every frame he was in

• finn wolfhard. because he would absolutely Nail It. i know he is itching to beat his bad actor allegations, the worst boyfriend in the world allegations, and the asshole friend allegations. he also needs to maintain his reputation as playing the struggling queer boy in love with his best friend. and this time with a happy ending (cough cough not end up like reddie)

• conan gray. because “let me tell you a story, about a boy and a boy. best friends with each other, but always wished they were more. cuz they loved one another, but never together, cuz they were too afraid of what they’d say. moved to different states”

• brett gelman. because he is for byler if byler is for byler. he would make sure to have murray spend some thought-provoking alone-time with the disaster gays

• leigh janiak. because she directed fear street and is the wife of ross duffer. she could convince her husband to bring a little more fruitiness into st (as @super-nova5045 mentioned <3)

• the 58k and counting people of the byler tag. because i mean, look at us. we literally glow. a lot of us here have already visioned our own versions of how s5 byler would evolve, in our heads. imagine the power we would have if we got to brainstorm all those concepts in the writers’ room. we deserve to put our genius ideas onto the tv screens of people who call us delusional. and also we remember will’s birthday ha

end slideshow

[gingerbread-in-july]

(The end of this post contains potential spoilers for ST4)

AU where after Max and Susan move, Susan and Wayne slowly strike up a friendship. Little by little, they become closer. Then one day, they start dating. Eventually, things get serious. Finally, Susan, Wayne, Eddie, and Max become the healthy, happy family that none of them had before.

After two shit husbands, Susan finally knows what it means to be with a good man and be treated right. She finally has a partner who is worthy of her love.

Although Wayne clearly loves and supports Eddie, he doesn't have to be a single parent and do it all by himself anymore.

Eddie has a steady mother figure for the first time. Susan has her baggage, but everyone in this show does. Eddie is a far better person than Billy, so he would probably be a better son. She would have an easier time loving him.

Max finally has a loving, supportive father figure that she doesn't have to live in fear of. Wayne would love Max. He's got a lot of experience caring for a kid who has been through a bunch of shit he shouldn't ever have had to go through. I think that part of the reason Eddie is such a sweet guy is because of Wayne's influence. He would be the same positive influence in Max's life that he is in Eddie's. As good a guy as Wayne is, however, if anyone were ever to mess with Max, he would shut that down real quick. And if that wasn't enough to deter anyone with ill intentions.....Eddie sure as hell would be. Older stepbrother Eddie would be protective as hell of Max.

Can we talk about the sibling dynamic between Eddie and Max? Because that would be every-fucking-thing.

That sibling bond that Max mourned never having with Billy? She would sure as hell have it with Eddie.

He would introduce Max to all kinds of cool music. Maybe even teach her to play guitar.

And she would teach him how to skateboard! He would absolutely be a klutz about it at first, but he would eventually get the hang of it- although he would never be as good at it as Max!

She would show him her comic collection. He would think it was so cool and they'd bond over that.

Maybe he'd even manage to drag her out to a few Hellfire Club sessions, although she would still act like she thinks it's lame.

Plus you already know he approves of Lucas. There would be Abso-fucking-lutely NONE of that bullshit Billy pulled. No one is a bigger Lumax supporter than Eddie. He definitely drags Max out to Hellfire in attempt to get them back together.

Eddie and Max would teasingly give one another shit, but they have each other's backs. They're protective of each other and God help anyone who decides to mess with either of them.

This is 100% what should have happened. Eddie and Max are two of my favorite characters that deserve so much better than what this show has given them.

Although what actually happened to Eddie and Max sucks, it would still be nice to see Wayne and Susan bond over having such terrible things happen to their children. They're both all alone now. They could be sources of support to one another because God knows they both need it. Although I won't trust the Duffers to do anything that competent.

Anyway, the Mayfield-Munson family lives on in my mind.

[tastywormfood]

I see ppl being excited about the last scene where jopper and jancy stands holding hands with byler in the middle, but I just can’t. After all this I don’t trust them anymore. I don’t trust they have any intention in making byler canon or giving Will a happy ending. This is Supernatural and Sherlock all over again. For all the byler shippers who still have hope, I’m glad you do. But there’s no way they can save their relationship and somehow make byler canon with out it being weird as fuck, and having Eleven heartbroken.

They were queerbaiting us from the beginning to end. Just like Sherlock. Just like supernatural. Remember how they kept implying johnlock after John got married to Mary? And even after she died? Remember how they kept implying destiel was mutual for all those years? Just to have Cas sacrifice himself for someone (who in the script) couldn’t reciprocate? Yeah that’s what this is.

Idk why I had hope for two cishet white men to write a genuinely good childhood friends to lovers story about internalized homophobia in the 80’s. They were so close to make Mike such a relatable character and to really make a meaningful relationship, but instead they made him a fucking asshole that was cold and ignored his best friend after a year of not seeing him. I genuinely think Finn wanted more, and not just this. His acting was too much on point for it to just be asshole behavior.

The spoon fed us fucking byler content for the entirety of pride month, cause they knew if they did all the hopeful queers would be sitting waiting the moment vol 2 came out. We all fucking fell for it. Cause you know, maybe this time, maybe this show won’t treat us like garbage, maybe this show will proof to us that we can find love and don’t deserve to sad, alone and a plot device for the main straight couple.

You know even the fucking leaks where better than this!! The leak about Mike confessing to El but looking at Will? It would’ve been bad, but it would’ve given us something. I’m trying not to be disappointed in Noah, he doesn’t deserve hate for hyping byler up as much as he did, and I genuinely think he takes us seriously and want byler to happen, but I’m just so tired. I’m so tired of straight actors who play queer characters thinking that smallest fucking crumbs covered in mud from being stepped on is good enough to keep is satisfied, they think as long as there is representation we will be happy. BUT THEY COULDN’T EVEN SAY IT. They couldn’t even have a scene where Will comes out. They just had him cry. Noah give it his all, and his acting this season was incredible, he should be proud. The duffer brothers should not.

I had such high hopes, but I am so done with this show.

[will80sbyers]

The Duffer will never go against the fans and they know GA don't want Byler but Mileven so I don't trust them. They will give Will a beautiful ending without Mike or leave all open in the end with Eleven Mike and Will all single and happy. Do you really trust The Duffer for Byler endgame?

Yeah, I do!

I don't think the Duffers care about what the fans want, both for bylers fans and mileven fans etc... they are following the narrative they have decided and the story they want to tell

and I think at this point the GA doesn't care that much about Mileven anymore, many have started to dislike them because the writers destroyed the relationship in the last two seasons on purpose...

plus with byler endgame they have the opportunity to make history, if they are smart and I think they are, they will do it

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

I’m gonna preface this by saying that I hope Byler doesn’t end up being canon, and in my opinion they’re taking the route that Will is going to confess, and Mike will friendzone him as he doesn’t feel the same way. I want Mileven to be together as it’ll make me happy. Hope I’m not being aggressive.

Anyway. I don’t really understand what Duffers are trying to accomplish in the story now. They are making sure that we know Will is gay without stating it at this point. They are giving us Byler scenes that contain typical romance movie tropes. They are subtly trying to hint there’s a possibility that Mike isn’t in love with El. So what’s the point? Why are they basically going to have Mike reject Will and say he loves El? Why would you make it look like a story is going a certain direction (Byler + Single El) then proceed to make the opposite happen (Mileven + Single Will) in just few seconds?

Then them having Mike say in season 2 that asking Will to be his friend is the best thing he’s ever done (Not meeting the girl he’s in love with lmao), then in season 3 saying that she’s the most important thing to him in the world (I can’t believe what he said in the shed has changed and now that he became closer to El some memory with her replaced meeting Will?? I highly doubt that and if that was the case I’d laugh).

This semi-love triangle in general is confusing. Though they don’t know the fate of characters or what will happen, there’s copious amounts of Byler content on the various Netflix social media - to the point you can easily forget about the existence of Mileven - which there’s barely any mention of.

I don’t trust Duffers at all it just gives off bait vibes.

You're not being aggressive at all. I appreciate how you've respectfully addressed this with me considering you probably know my stance on who Mike should be with.

The only reason I could see for them to go with this love triangle is to compare and contrast the relationships. Sorry to say, but Mike and El just bring out the worst in each other. They rushed into a relationship based on one week together and one year apart, a year in which they built up fantasy versions of each other in their minds. When they finally did get together, they just didn't work. They don't know each other, they have nothing in common, and they lie to each other. Mike and Will bring out the best in each other, though. They do know each other, they have things in common, and they're (mostly) honest with each other.

I can't see any reason for them to set the narrative up like this if they didn't want us to compare how Mike is with both of them, as well as how both of them are with him. El was happier in season 3 when they were apart, and she showed more character (and personal) development. Much the same is happening now, as she hasn't really thought about him since she left, instead learning more about her past and probably finding closure with Brenner. Will is miserable when distanced from Mike, which makes sense when you realize they've known each other since kindergarten.

It would make no sense for Mike to reject Will. It does nothing for either of their stories, and, in fact, takes away all that Will (currently) has left in terms of a place on the show. It makes all the buildup for Will and Mike since season 1. Meanwhile, Mike and El got their buildup during season 2. They're no longer in that phase. We got to see them together, and it's just not good. It makes no sense for Mike and El to magically repair their problems, for Mike to magically be able to tell El he loves her and for El to no longer cling to him or lie to him.

There's no outcome for this that makes us both happy, I'm afraid, but this is the situation the Duffers have written. To me, there's only one outcome that makes sense with what they've set up. El is going to grow as a person, accepting her good and her bad, and realize that she was using Mike as a security blanket that she no longer needs. Mike is going to realize that he was in a forced relationship that started for the wrong reasons, just like his parents. Will is going to get the courage to tell Mike how he really feels. I suppose Mike could still reject Will and we can all be mad together, but that still makes his entire story a waste, in my opinion.

[strangerthings4theories]

“We've been talking about this stuff since Season 1, I think,” Harbour says. “And [the Duffer brothers] do have a very specific idea of the thematics of this show and what characters are allowed to survive a world like that, what characters need to be punished, what characters can't survive, because they're not wily enough.”

“They're very responsible with that storytelling, and I'm really excited to sort of bring the whole story to an end so you can go back and watch the whole thing and see what the arc of the thematics are,” he continues. “Because I think it's really a big, big canvas, but it's told very responsibly and very well once you see the end.”

--David Harbour in this fantastic article

The fact that David said this is making me feel some type of way.

I only started this blog because, during quarantine, I rewatched the show several times and noticed certain arcs and themes. The ones that intrigued me the most practically demand Billy's return and a happy ending for his story. I've tried my best to describe them here. I've also argued that we can trust the Duffers to give Billy that happy ending. Their filmmaking screams that they care. No really, it does.

To see David Harbour, an actor I respect, reference "thematics" and say the Duffers are telling their story "responsibly," is... well. It warms my cold little heart.

[bylerchoseme]

This volume felt really disconnected and it feels like such a separate show at times and idk how to explain it.

There must be an explanation for the final choices Of the scenes chosen in regards to Mike because if they were trying to really push mi//ven then why do we see Mike looking so fondly at Will. Make it make sense, I want to have hope I do but I’ve been burned too many time by so many shows. The Duffers have certainly lost a bunch of viewers after this mess

Volume 2 doesn’t exist. Episode 8 was amazing minus the van scene until the ending which made me lose all hope. Episode 9 was just a huge decline from the moment it started all the way to the end. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing and hearing. The only positive was Lumax but even they went through a rough patch. I don’t know what’s going to happen with Max.

I wanna say something:

Will is the best person in the whole entire world. He would rather his best friend whom he is in love with so much be happy than to see him suffer. He loves Michael Wheeler. HE TRULY LOVES MIKE. He is so in love with him. Despite the heartache, he is still by his side even though it’s the hardest thing ever. Mike is the luckiest person in the world to have Will. He will never be loved by anyone as much as he is loved by Will. Mike is Will’s ride or die. God bless Will. He only thinks of others before himself. He is selfless and a pure soul. I love him so much. He deserves everything. I just need and want Will to be happy for once in his traumatic life. He deserves the best and only the best. Will is an Angel. The world doesn’t deserve him. I wish I could give him a hug. I’ll always defend William Byers no matter what. Mike changed Will’s life. Will will never be in love with anyone else for as long as he lives. Mike has Will’s heart.

Don’t trust the Duffer’s anymore. It’s better for your own personal health. They’ve led everybody on with false beliefs. Nothing that was said ended up happening. They love torturing Will. Episode 8 and 9 is insulting, cruel, obnoxious, rude, sick, queerbaiting, disgusting, vile, and a bunch of other words I can’t think of right now. Will always has to pay the price. Unfortunately. This kid is a joke to them. He can’t ever be happy. The last two episodes of Season 4 are offensive too. I don’t consider them canon. As far as I am concerned, season 4 ended when Mike apologized for how he has been acting the past few days which was episode 4. Everything after falls flat. I don’t know this show anymore.

Honestly, Mike deserved to have a real character arc. I feel sorry for him. The writers ruined him completely. He isn’t the Mike we all love and know. It’s very sad. I don’t hate Mike. I am appalled. He had so much potential. RIP Michael Wheeler.

[munsons-maiden]

The Bros said:

"In a way, we saw Eddie as a bit of a doomed character," Matt Duffer said on the Happy Sad Confused podcast. "Even imagining the flip side of that where he does survive the battle is not a great life awaiting Eddie back in the right side up either. He was always really designed from the get-go as a doomed character."

Ross Duffer added: "There was never any other arc for him and there was no 'how do you survive this?'"

"At the very end, you see people still drawing devil horns on his head -- no one in Hawkins is going to accept a supernatural explanation for this. He would have wound up in jail and this fantasy that he would have been able to walk and graduate sadly was not ever a realistic outcome for him."

Not a realistic outcome? There is a place underground full of monsters, people with superpowers and all unrealistic stuff but a character graduating is too much for them?

But ok, Eddie graduating is a bit too much. Fine. But I don't buy this bs that death was the only option for him. He could go to jail or flee the city and become someone else. This is realistic too.

I agree with everything you said.

The Duffers are telling me that in a world where there's a parallel dimension, monsters, superpowers - and the military and government KNOW about it, KNOW that Eddie didn't commit these murders and already proved that they were able to fake El's birth certificate and relocate a whole family...that there was no way to get Eddie out of this mess? That they didn't have any ideas?

And they made itbso obvious. They love to subvert expectations yet they kept telling us that he'd die from the first episode, to the point where 99% of the fandom were absolutely certain he wouldn't make it out alive. That's very cheap, very bad, very lazy writing and such a horrible waste of the BEST character and one of the best actors in all seasons.

Stranger Things isn't Stranger Things anymore without Eddie.

And that's why I'm holding firmly onto hope that it wasn't the end of Eddie's story and that they needed to let him die this beautifully heroic yet utterly pointless death because they'll bring him back. I don't even care if they planned to bring him back all along or if they're doing it for the fans or the money, I just want and need him back alive and as himself, not some flashback or nightmare or possessed corpse but Eddie. Flay him, let him be saved like Will was saved, just give him back and give him the happy ending he deserves.

And clear his fucking name because Hawkins doesn't even deserve a single second of this man's presence.

And if they don't bring him back, that's such a cruel, horrible message for all of us who found a part of themselves in Eddie, on top of that.

But in a way, everything they said in that interview was ture if they already planned to bring him back but he needed to die before they could do that. If they, for example, planned for Dustin and the others to leave his body in the UD for Vecna to resurrect and flay him (like I hope/believe will happen), of course he needed to find his tragic end in ST5. Of course he needed to die for this storyline to happen. They could say these things and mean them and they'd be true in a way because it's still only the first half of the story. And that's the hope I'm clinging to.

As long as ST5 hasn't aired, the Duffers are basically reverse fairies: all they can do is lie at this point. They couldn't tell us if Eddie returned, and they could hardly keep their mouths shut about the death of the number one fan fave without it being suspicious so they would have to make it believable that he won't return even if he did.

I don't trust them. I mean, I believe them that Eddie won't graduate and that, even if he returns, ST5 will probably end with him leaving Hawkins behind after everything they did to him. But...not graduating isn't exactly the end of the world. It's not like not graduating equals a gruesome death at 19-21 years of age...

[mikewheely]

Hi! I love your account because I also adore Mileven. They're literally the couple that had been setup since ep1 season 1. It's a simple story written by the duffer bros abt El being the survivor of the secret govt experiments, her powers, and its supernatural other side creatures, and the kids who help her and the people she learnt to trust along the way.

It's a pretty simple story tbh but somehow along the way the fandom has become toxic from all the many demands and expectations of different shippers. And I'm also beginning to think the writing is also partly at fault; for not giving Will a proper character arc instead of just.... sad boi.

I think partly people just wanna see Will be happy and somehow some of them started pinning that cause of happiness to be only Mike and Mike alone--and that's why I said the writing is partly at fault, because its refusal to write Will to meet new people, to write Will be happier.

I've seen how you've been defending Mike and I support you since passion is also my biggest trait lol. But I hope you understand that these haters will never stop hating no matter what you tell them. You can explain it all until you lose your breath and they will never agree with you.

I'm in a lot of fandoms and I've learned that sometimes, just not listening to their hate gives them less power. Over time, I've actually begun to like the characters that I used to dislike before in various fandoms--maybe that's the way for it to go--maybe the more people experience things irl maybe the more they'll understand characters in stories. And that's usually how people end up saying stuff online abt some characters in past shows like "oh this character was so underrated, that character was misunderstood" -- but by that time, no one really cares anymore. It's an old show, the echoes have long faded.

There's a lot of things about Mike that the writers failed to explore, and that makes it so easy for haters to fill in the blanks. And this goes to a lot of the other characters too and no, i do not hate the characters. It's okay to admit that some writers are good at writing exciting plots, but not so much at character arcs

At the end of the day, it's a story that we're supposed to take pleasure in and find entertainment in and instead the wars and hatred from various sides are becoming a turn off from the fandom

And not to mention, there are usually lots of people who likes A Thing but are silent fans, compared to haters. Haters are loud even if their quantity are smaller and maybe that's why they're all you'll ever hear. It's easier to be loud when we like something compared to when we do like a thing.

That's all! Kudos!

Hello! Well, I agree and disagree with you. Of course paying attention to what they say gives them more power, you're right. But I also know that me saying anything wouldn't change at how they look at things, I am not doing it for them. I am doing it for myself. I am doing it to vent. I am utilizing this space to support a character I love by giving valid points, to share the other perspective in contrast to the popular one.

Also, I do not blame the writers or makers for any of this. First of all, the character arcs. For a show like this where you get very little time to show the personal lives of the characters, I think they have done a very good job in developing their characters properly. I mean sure, you may think that they didn't, that's your point of view, but I don't agree with that. Secondly, about Will having a love interest, to be honest, he hasn't been able to come out yet, he hasn't been able to accept who he really is yet. Also, even Noah knows that he has just entered high school, he is a shy kid and it's the 80s, so it was more difficult to come out than it is today. And along with that, you are in love with your best friend who also happens to be your sister's boyfriend, that's even more complicated, so if anything comes out that affects 3 people. The story is still left, so I guess we have to see if there is a reason why they have not given that scope to Will. But then there's Steve also, not a LGBTQ character, he has not been able to find love after Nancy either, he still has feelings for her. But people don't find that problematic? Why not? The other day, I finished watching Brooklyn Nine-Nine and the bisexual character there, Rosa, chose not to settle down in the end when all the rest of the people were settled down/married and had become parents and found the usual 'happy ending'. Do you think that the writers did that intentionally because they wanted to show that she doesn't deserve to be happy? No.

So it's not the writers' fault, they did what they felt is right for the character, for some reason. If anything, they kept it realistic, because not everyone has it so easy in life. I don't know why that's so shocking or surprising to so many people. I mean if wearing a blue shirt, standing in front of a closet and so many more such things make people decide that these are all related to the sexual orientation of a character that is not anyone's fault, it is what they wanted to see. If they think Mike lied in his monologue, can you really blame anyone else for that? If they read too much into everything, then they are willingly choosing to be disappointed. And when things don't happen the way they want, they start creating drama over that.

Seeing how things are getting misinterpreted, misunderstood, and misconstrued and then being used against the characters just makes me angry. And I merely vent here. That's all.

But thank you for being so nice! Maybe someday I will get tired of venting as well. But till then, I would always stand up for Mike.