#I told him how I loved 68 kill and Knight King

[darthbenn]

sometimes you meet your favorite actor in the grocery store parking lot after working outdoors in Vegas summer for 12 hours

The rumors are TRUE: MATTHEW GRAY GUBLER IS THE NICEST HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET!

[erzakyuubei]

Jonsa Book Foreshadowing

Not mine. Credit goes to Juligen from asoiaf forum.

YOU WILL MARRY A KING..............

“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”Arya screwed up her face. “No,” she said, “that’s Sansa." 

(Eddard V- A Game of Thrones)

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For me this quote is one of the most important quotes from the entire series because it pretty much sets up for the audience both Sansa and Arya story arc. Sansa will be the sister who will marry and have children and fulfill her childhood dreams of a happy family, which is why Love, marriage and children will be a constant theme in Sansa’s arc story. She will be treated as an object, passed around by the powerful players of the story, all interested in her claim of Winterfell and the North; she will be forced into marriage alliances and her future children will be desired for their claim in the North. Sansa will try to survive as much as she can, keeping still a slim hope to find love and happiness and maybe one day fulfill that sweet dream of a rebuilding her destroyed family.

Arya will follow another path; she will be a warrior and ruler on her own. Arya always wanted to be the keeper of her own holdfast, she wanted to be a knight and fight in battle and most important, I believe Arya wanted to feel the independence that most women in Westeros could never feel. Not that love and marriage is not impossible for her, but I feel George wants Arya to be a Queen regent on her own.

George is trying to tells us in this passage of the books that women should be able to choose their own paths and if its love, marriage and children what they wish for they should have it, but if its not, they should be free to figure out her own destiny. The tragedy of Lyanna Stark was that she never had a choice and was forced into marry someone she never cared for, and I believe George wants to show with both Sansa and Arya that girls should be free to choose their own dreams., because BOTH dreams are equality valid.

A CLOAK STAINED IN FIRE AND BLOOD......................

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

(A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII)

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Sansa cloaked herself with a cloak stained in "Fire and Blood" the words of House Targaryen. For me this has always been one of the biggest foreshadows on the book and its interesting to notice how George used the character of Sandor Cleagane as a redherring for this scene in order to not make so obvious the connection with Jon.

It was only when we make the connection of this particular scene with one that happened a few chapters before In the book A CLASH OF KINGS that it became pretty obvious this quote was about Jon Snow.

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“I’ve never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I’ve been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?”

Catelyn took a step backwards. “Brienne.”

“No, that wasn’t it.” Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickled ran down onto his face, bright as blood. “Snow, that was the one. Such a white name … like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths.”

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII

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THE ORDER OF THE CHAPTERS OF THE BOOKS....

Every time Sansa’s marriage proposals are being discussed in the books, the next chapter usually its followed by a JON chapter. Once you put the two quotes together is that you really get it, what George was once again, very delicately trying to tells us.

In the first book A GAME OF THRONES, chapter 4 Eddard I, we have King Robert arriving at Winterfell and asking to visit Lyanna tomb in the crypts of the castle. While there King Robert decides to ask for Sansa’s hand in marriage for his son prince Joffrey. This is the chapter where Sansa and Joffrey become officially betrothed to each other and their Royal engagement its made official. The very next chapter? JON. This is also the chapter where Jon Snow will get drunk in the Feats for the king and ask uncle Ben to join the NightsWatch.

In a CLASH OF KINGS chapter 52, SANSA IV, Sansa will get her period and be finally “fit to bear children to the king”. Cersei then tries, as best as she can, to be a mother figure to Sansa in this very special moment and gives her a womanly advice. She tells her that love is a dangerous feeling that makes us all weaker and it should wiser for her to love only her children. Once again we have a chapter discussing Sansa future marriage to a king and the following chapter is JON VII.

Finally on A STORM OF SWORDS, we have the famous chapter 68, Sansa VI, where she laments that no one will ever marry her for love, its only her name and Winterfell they all want. The very next chapter of the book? JON. Again, thats not a coincidence, George does this, he said that he takes a lot of planning and caring about the way he writes and structures his books.

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A CLASH OF KINGS - THE WINTER ROSE

In A CLASH OF KINGS we will have George very quietly making the connection with Jon, Sansa and the tale of Bael the Bard.  While was I re reading the books I noticed that George was playing with the chapters orders and trying to tells us some hints of the story by putting characters chpaters next to each other. The first time Jon meets Ygritte on “A CLASH OF KINGS”, chapter 51, she tells him a story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose:

"The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

(A Clash of Kings – Jon VI)

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Right next in the following chapter 52, Sansa has her first flowering. This is the chapter where Sansa gets her first period and its now “fit to bear children to the King.”

"The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You've had your first flowering, no more." Sansa had never felt less flowery. "My lady mother told me, but I... I thought it would be different.""Different how?""I don't know. Less... less messy, and more magical.” Queen Cersei laughed. "Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman's life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you'll learn that soon enough... and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all." She took a sip of milk. "So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?" "It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded," said Sansa, "and to bear children for the king." …….

Do you want to be loved, Sansa?" "Everyone wants to be loved." "I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

(A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV)

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In the chapter 52, Sansa gets her period for the first time. She is taken to see Cersei who uses the moment to give Sansa womanly advice about love. She warns Sansa that love is dangerous and make us weaker. The following chapter of the book is JON VII.

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“Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?” “Everyone wants to be loved.” “I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

(A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV)

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In the end of chapter Cersei warns Sansa about love and how dangerous it can be. The following chapter of the book is also JON VII. George really wanted us to picture Jon, Sansa and the Blue Winter Rose tale all together. For me this is one of the biggest clues that not only Jon and Sansa will marry but also, its their child that will continue House Stark.

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A STORM OF SWORDS - THE FALLING SNOW

In A storm of Swords, George used the prologue of the book to foreshadow Jon and Sansa romance, using the snow to symbolize Jon Snow. In the two paragraphs under, Chett will lament that heavy snow has ruined his plans for desertion and that Jon Snow and Sam stole his comfortable position as Maester Aemon’s steward: and that Jon Snow stole his position.

“He could feel tears freezing to his cheeks. It isn’t fair, he wanted to scream. Snow would ruin everything he��d worked for, all his careful plans. It was a heavy fall, thick white flakes coming down all about him.How would they find their food caches in the snow, or the game trail they meant to follow east? They won’t need Dywen nor Bannen to hunt us down neither, not if we’re tracking through fresh snow. And snow hid the shape of the ground, especially by night. A horse could stumble over a root, break a leg on a stone. We’re done, he realized. Done before we began. We’re lost. There’d be no lord’s life for the leechman’s son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns. Only a wildling’s sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. The snow’s taken it all from me … the bloody snow …”

 “Snow had ruined him once before. Snow and his pet pig.”

(ASOS Prologue)

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And later we have Jon Snow introducing himself as “the snow”……

“The singer rose to his feet. "I’m Mance Rayder,” he said as he put aside the lute. “And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell.”

 ( A Storm of Swords – Jon I)

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Then comes Sansa’s chapter at the end of the book, where she will feel snow falling down her lips and touching her almost like a lover……..

Snow was falling on the Eyrie.

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

(A Storm of Swords - Sansa VIII)

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A FEAST FOR CROWS - SANSA FIRST LOVE

In A FEAST FOR CROWS, chapter 23, we have Sansa playing the role of Alayne Stone, Littlefinger bastard daughter. In this chapter Sansa remembers Lord Yohn Royce son,  Ser Wayman Royce and how she fell madly in love with him when he visited Winterfell on his way to take the black on the Nights Watch. If we go back to the prologue of the first book, we will find out that surprising, Ser Waymar physical description is identical of Jon Snow. George is trying to tell us that Sansa will probably be physical attracted to Jon Snow once she is reunited with him later in the story. 

"Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw . . . he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney."

- A FEAST FOR CROWS,  Alayne I

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Waymar Royce is described as follows. Notice how similar this description is to Jon.

Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather.

A GAME OF THRONES, Prologue

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Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

- A GAME OF THRONES, Bran I

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JON SNOW BECOMING SANSA'S HERO

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. **That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”** -

( A Game of Thrones – Sansa III)

She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once, but none of them came. She called for the heroes from the songs, **for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, but no one heard.**

(A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV)

They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”**

A Storm of Swords – Jon II

Notice how Sansa's heros match with with the ones Jon's used to pretend to be as a child.

“Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head.

 A game of Thrones – Sansa VI

"I will not hang him," said Jon. "Bring him here." "Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw.

A dance of Dragons – Jon II

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THEIR DREAMS COMPLETING EACH OTHERS

Dreams of home and family

“She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. "If I give him Sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as Valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.”

A STORM OF SWORDS, Sansa II

“I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decide to live his life on the wall. I could name him Robb”..-

A STORM OF SWORDS, Jon XII

Rebuilding Winterfell……

The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell.

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

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There is so much foreshadow for this relationship that I always shake my head when people say there is nothing in the books about this romance.

Edited March 30 by prettylongclaw

[empiregalaxy]

Been thinking alot about how fandom really focuses on Sansa and ‘lying’. To me, it is very overstated and overfocused considering Sansa never lies with malicious intent to hurt people. Sure, how she shapes and interprets reality in A Game Of Thrones especially with the Trident Incident is important (where she falsely recalls Mycah hitting Joffrey) is important, but it’s not the be end all of the character. How Sansa grows and changes is also vital. Here, I’ll try to make clear that lying is not one of Sansa’s ‘flaws’, she is human and is not perfect but holding her lies against her doesn’t really work.

I don’t mind discussion about how lying impacts on Sansa, and the role in plays within her story- my problem is when people use that as a reason to be against her character.

If anything, Sansa is someone who wants “the truth” out, and for everyone to know what is going on. Like her sister, Arya (who also campaigns for the truth) Sansa does call out liars.

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman's sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. "A monster," she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. "Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well." (A Storm Of Swords, Chapter Six)

As well as

His words made Tyrion feel absurdly grateful, and helped to mollify him as Galyeon sang endless verses about the valor of the boy king and his mother, the golden queen. "She never did that," Sansa blurted out suddenly. (A Storm Of Swords, Chapter Sixty)

And

Sansa pulled away from his touch. "You said I must wear the hair net. The silver net with . . . what sort of stones are those?" "Amethysts. Black amethysts from Asshai, my lady." "They're no amethysts. Are they? Are they? You lied." "Black amethysts," he swore. "There was magic in them." "There was murder in them!" (A Storm Of Swords, Chapter Sixty-One)

And it’s also clear that lying makes her wildly uncomfortable

"Is it all lies, forever and ever, everyone and everything?" (A Storm Of Swords, Chapter Sixty-One)

And the concept of lying is relatively new to her

A light rain was falling on the remains of the feast, but the air smelled fresh and clean. The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. (A Storm Of Swords, Chapter 68)

So Sansa’s arc, alot of it is about detecting lies and seeing through them. To be frank, she has no choice but to lie and be Alayne. Not doing so would mean a fate at Cersei’s hands. Lying is a theme in her arc, but what I struggle with is when people interpret that to mean Sansa is a vindictive liar. Her ‘lies’ that are deemed unforgivable by many readers include:

The Trident incident

Her constant adoration of Joffrey and Cersei

Framing Marillion

The thing about Sansa, especially circa A Game Of Thrones is that she has strong ideas about how things should be, or how things could be that she often forgets how things actually are. That makes her rather idealistic and not fully understanding of the ramifications. If her ‘lies’ are going to be brought up, so should her age. She’s 11 and still maturing.

As when we reach A Feast For Crows- Sansa is pretty much forced to lie for her own survival, and is manipulated by Petyr Baelish. And, she struggles with it.

"All you need do is tell Lord Nestor the same tale that you told Lord Robert," Petyr went on. Robert is only a sick little boy, she thought, Lord Nestor is a man grown, stern and suspicious. Robert was not strong and had to be protected, even from the truth. "Some lies are love," Petyr had assured her. She reminded him of that. "When we lied to Lord Robert, that was just to spare him," she said. (A Feast For Crows, Chapter 10)

To certain characters, she is a ‘liar’ and that includes

Arya

"I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see . . . " "You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar." (A Game Of Thrones, Chapter 16)

Lysa

Sansa took a step backward. "That's not true." "Where are you going? Are you afraid? Such wanton behavior must be punished, but I will not be hard on you. We keep a whipping boy for Robert, as is the custom in the Free Cities. His health is too delicate for him to bear the rod himself. I shall find some common girl to take your whipping, but first you must own up to what you've done. I cannot abide a liar, Alayne." (A Storm Of Swords, Chapter 80)

So, as she is called in text a liar it is kind of understandable. But in the instance of Lysa- she is not lying. Petyr kissed her, not the other way round (what Lysa is saying is incredibly gross and victim blaming). I really don’t want to get into the Trident incident (because that never ends well in fandom discussion) but it should be clear that she was pretty much forced to testify and she didn’t want to be there. She was put in a difficult position. I’m not saying Sansa did the right thing, I’m just saying being compassionate to an eleven year old is not a bad thing.

Most of Sansa’s ‘lies’ can be understood as the following:

trying to survive

trying to cope

trying to get out of a situation

None of those things are malicious. Do they impact on Sansa’s mental wellbeing? Certainly. But her moral standing? Not really. 

How Sansa reacts to lies is interesting. 

He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them . . . (A Feast For Crows, Chapter 10)

This quote is not about how Sansa herself lies, but how people lie to Sansa. If anything, this quote reads about how someone who has been abused survives. The ‘liars’ in Sansa’s life- Petyr, Cersei, Joffrey have caused alot of harm to her. Sansa, for the most part is someone who has been lied to, not the inital liar. It would be nice if fandom focused on the people who put her in situations where she has to lie than shaming how Sansa chooses to survive.

So what is Sansa’s flaw when she administrates a higher dose of sweetsleep to Robert Arryn, and later comments 

He does have pretty hair.  If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely.  That much she will love about him. (The Winds Of Winter, Alayne Sample Chapter)

Well, my conclusion is that Sansa struggles with ramifications. That she can dismiss things. But this is the type of flaw that is completely human- after all, she can learn from it. She is not aware of the reality of what she is doing, because this is kind of new for her. Lying, to me has never been Sansa’s problem. I don’t even think Sansa has a ‘problem’ to speak of, but a flaw that can easily be exaggerated. 

I also think fandom confuses basic flattery (the compliments Sansa gives to say, Loras) with malicious fraud and lying. They are seperate. 

The Winds Of Winter sample chapter is interesting, because she is actively seeing who is a liar and who isn’t. 

Say something, she urged herself.  You will never make Ser Harry love you if you dont have the courage to talk him.  Should she tell him what a good dancer he was?  No, hes probably heard that a dozen times tonight.  Besides, Petyr said that I should not seem eager.  Instead she said, “I have heard that you are about to be a father.”  It was not something most girls would say to their almost-betrothed, but she wanted to see if Ser Harrold would lie.

“For the second time. My daughter Alys is two years old.”

    Your bastard daughter Alys, Alayne thought, but what she said was, That one had a different mother, though.

Sansa’s arc does not read as someone who is a liar, but become more aware of liars and their impact on society. Yes, Sansa has lied, but so has countless of characters in ASOIAF. To quote Sandor Clegane ‘we’re all liars here’. What matters is why you are lying. If, like Cersei you are lying to hurt people- then there is a problem. If you are lying to gain money, then there is a problem. If you are lying for survival like Sansa is- you deserve compassion and understanding, not scorn.

So what would I call Sansa? Secretive. For a damn good reason, but she internalizes things strongly. I hope to discuss that in a future meta, I just feel as if that’s a better word to describe her than ‘liar’. 

In conclusion, lies plays a role in Sansa’s arc. But calling her a ‘fraud’ with a ‘history of lying’ doesn’t do any favours and misreads the ‘why’ Sansa does what she does. She is someone who has been hurt by lies, is forced to live a lie. She inquires, asks questions- which suggests someone who wants the truth. And that makes her the opposite of malice.