#I think I liked the story but wouldn't canonise it in my mind

[batfamfucker]

Tell the truth comic fans challenge. When's the last time you read a comic and how many have you actually read?

P.S. This isn't me being gatekeepy btw I'm being genuine because I'm gonna be honest I've probably only actually read about five series and every thing else I've gotten from movies/series, online, or fanon. I know all the important events. Have I actually read them? No because my ADHD just wouldn't. And I can't be assed having to read important events if it's in a shit run by a bad writer.

[rovermcfly]

not that anyone asked for it but here's my Thunderheart novelization thoughts

also the sheer amount of micro-aggressions, especially from cooch. there is a lot of influence from the 4th script draft still in there. at this point I'm surprised they didn't include even more in the movie than they already have. racism in general is, probably realistically so, much more directly expressed.

I'm surprised by some of the differences to the movie, especially Ray's characterisation as pretty hot-headed and short-fused, especially giving Cooch lip from the start. Also the additional details like his growing up on the rez, trying to erase that from his file, all that was pretty bold. the movie seems to suggest a backstory of him being entirely out of touch, never having grown up around his own people and only knowing his father but choosing to erase his memory from his mind (but not to the point of erasing him from his file. his disdain seems more passive, less aggressive. like he thinks if he forgets and denies it will just go away), but just in general chooses ambiguity.

novel Walter is 💯💯🔥🔥 absolutely adore the way he's written. the same snark as movie walter but with much more of a touch of profoundness. "The expression in Crow Horse's eyes reminded Ray of Grandpa Reaches, sad and gentle and far-seeing all at the same time." is my favourite way that side of him is described. and I thought I loved him in the movie already, but the lines they wrote for him in the novel absolutely blew me away. I think they probably wouldn't have worked so well and felt too inauthentic on screen but some of them live very rent free in my mind. I'd die for novel walter.

I do like that it canonises that ray hears the drums and it's really significant. the soundtrack and sound design is one of the movie's strongest features, especially in marking all these significant moments. so having them be a part of Ray's visions is really nice.

What I really disliked is the way Maggie is described all the time. It is important for the movie that she has dignity and power and is not sexualised or otherwise a caricature. I understand she's pretty and mentioning that when first describing her, but the constant objectification is really just disgusting and yet another form of violence that Native women are constant victims of. It really really took away a lot of the good for me, she should've been treated with respect. this way the novel just perpetuates what the story takes a stand against. And I know it's supposed to be mainly Ray's POV but nobody forced them to write it that way.

I also found the Stronghold standoff very anticlimactic in the novel, when it's one of the strongest scenes in the movie. it was just lacking for some reason, too much talking and yet no clear stance and statement was made, overall the impact of the moment just wasn't there.

Overall I liked the novelization. It's about as captivating a read as the movie is captivating a watch. It clearly adapted more than just the film, taking several elements from earlier versions of the script. There were parts that, to me, deviated too much from the movie, making it feel like a different story, but as such it was overall good. Especially Ray feels like a different character in many ways. I still think the movie has a certain edge the novel lacks. Not sure how enjoyable a read it would be for someone doesn't already love the movie, but if you liked it it's a nice kinda alternate version to enjoy if you want more.

It's available to read for free on archive.org

[notthestarwar]

I think that the thing ppl forget with transformative fiction is that, part of the fun is that it's transformative. That's a feature not a bug.

We talk about death of the author but like... when I write a transformative work I'm not doing it because I don't think the original should exist. If the original didn't exist there would be nothing for me to build my story on. The story George Lucas told is not the one I would have and that's fine because without his story, I wouldn't have mine. The magic is in the transformation.

When I read a fic that in my eyes is better than Canon, I'm not mad that it isn't Canon. Without Canon it wouldn't exist. Any story told, is told through the lens of that author. If you expect another author to write the story as you would tell it, you will always be disappointed. They aren't you! They can't tell your story, only you can do that. And that's why when we we have fun digging in to parts of Canon and sharing our own version of it, what we see in it, there never can be a right or wrong.

You will come across fans that agree with you. That take something from Canon and mould it in to something that fits with what you've taken from it, and you'll find some fans that do the opposite. None of them are actually wrong. Like we joke about 'He wouldn't say that' and yeah the blorbo that lives in your mind wouldn't say that and that's fine but the blorbo that lives in their mind would and that's fine as well. If you don't like something walk away and find something you do. It kinda frustrates me when we talk about characterisation like it's this definitive thing and there's a right and wrong. There isn't! There is one you agree with and one you don't. Nobody watches George Lucas's story and sees the story that lives in his head, only he sees that, everyone else sees their own version, through the lens of their experience. For some people that'll be really similar and for some other people it'll be diametrically different.

I don't get why people are so set on having authors confirm their headcannons. You don't need that! The reason star wars Canon is so convoluted is because they've tried to canonise so many different people's perspectives on it, and the result is crazy. Stop trying to be right and just share in the joy of transformation. Find your people, the fans whose versions of the stories are like yours and stop stressing about George Lucas's opinion on things, that's what death of the author was supposed to actually mean.

I’ve been thinking about this quote a lot lately.  The question he’s replying to is about His Dark Materials, where someone wondered if mothers gave birth to their children’s daemons at the same time they birthed the child, and his response was, “It’s a metaphor.  Don’t force it to do the work of a fact.” And I think this is a huge source of disconnect in Star Wars fandom as well, that for example George Lucas has been extremely clear on why Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side, which was because he was greedy, possessive, afraid, and refused to accept that life changes and he couldn’t hold onto people, that he refused to do so.  It’s a theme in a fairy tale. Is it true that, in our complex and profound real world, that childhood trauma of being a slave would affect things on a far deeper level than is written into the story?  Yes, of course!  But Anakin Skywalker is written to a theme, not to a fact.  Star Wars is not about real world facts, it’s about themes in a fictional story.  Listen, George Lucas fuckin’ loved his themes, okay.  LOVED them, possibly more than the characters themselves! We absolutely can have fun speculating about what Anakin’s childhood trauma added onto his story, but ultimately it’s not actually a part of the theme and not part of the narrative as it is.  Characters in the story cannot react as if Anakin’s specific childhood trauma is an element in his choices because it’s not part of the narrative, it doesn’t exist to them, because Anakin Skywalker is a theme in a fairy tale, not a fact. I think that’s where a lot of disconnect is coming from when we talk about “whose fault is it that Anakin Skywalker fell!?” or “how could this have been prevented!?” or “why don’t you have more sympathy for the former slave!?” because, while my heart aches for Anakin, it’s not the reason he fell, and trying to make it so is like trying to ask what happens when a mother gives birth to a child in a world of daemons–it’s not the point of the inclusion of that plot element, treating the characters as if it were is trying to make it do the work of a fact, rather than what it is. Such work has its place in fandom, especially in the transformative part of fandom, but it’s not part of the narrative itself and I think recognizing that disconnect might help clarify why there’s so much frustration in why some fans may never see eye to eye.

[madara-fate]

If Kishimoto really wants people to believe that Sasuke loves Sakura and that they have such a good marriage then he's doing a piss poor job at it. You don't see people arguing if Minato loved Kushina or not or if Dan loved Tsunade or not. You don't. The fact that there are so many people arguing whether Sasuke loves Sakura or not, and many people believing he doesn't is just proof that Kishimoto failed somewhere or else there wouldn't be this much controversy surrounding this matter. It's either Kishimoto implying Sasuke does not love her, either Kishimoto intending to portray his idea of a good realtionship/loving husband through SS and failing miserably. Sasuke did not look happy when he saw Sakura in Gaiden first time after 10 years of absence. He couldn't even bother to send a letter to her and Sarada to let them know he was alright and thinking about them during this period. And no, please don't come at me with that bullshit excuse that he didn't keep in contact because he wanted to keep the secrecy of his mission and did not want any private information to leak and that's why he was only keeping in contact with the Hokage or whatever. No one says that if he ever bothered to write them he had to go into details about his mission. He could've just told them he's alright, that he misses them and hopes they're fine and that would've been great too and wouldn't have compromised his mission in any way. The man has space time abilities for fuck's sake. He could've easily teleported to see them and then go back to his business. In my opinion Kishimoto wrote SS in this ambiguous way to appease both the SS haters and the SS shippers. He knew SS fans were going to be happy with whatever he threw at them even if it was the absolute bottom of the barrel and he knew the antis were gonna have a good time using Gaiden to further tear the ship apart. This man is either terrible at writing romance either a huge troll who enjoys pitying his readers against each other. Or maybe both. And I assure you, I don't even hate SS, despite what I have written so far, nor do I ship something else. And Sasuke is also my favorite character. I'm indifferent to this pairing and maybe that's why I can have a more objective opinion on it than its shippers or its haters since I'm not biased due to personal feelings of either distaste or love for it. SS can be seen in both a good and a bad light, but to be honest the balance is more inclined towards the bad light.

This is just more of the stuff that I've heard plenty of times before. I'll firstly preface this by saying that I'm very highly critical of Gaiden because it included pointless drama for the sake of pointless drama. It's execution was horrendous to say the least, but I'll always still appreciate the message that Kishi was trying to relay. However, I will always take issue with those who defend the notion that Sasuke doesn't love Sakura. Hence, the following.

You don't see people arguing if Minato loved Kushina or not or if Dan loved Tsunade or not. You don't. The fact that there are so many people arguing whether Sasuke loves Sakura or not, and many people believing he doesn't is just proof that Kishimoto failed somewhere or else there wouldn't be this much controversy surrounding this matter.

Minato wasn't drowning in hatred due to a supernatural phenomenon which cause him to push away love in favour of the darkness. Dan wasn't made to undertake a preposterously long mission while intending to keep everything about it confidential. Why on earth do people think they can just compare any random relationships to SS's and go "well look at this couple! Why couldn't SS have been more like them?". Well here's your answer - Because their situations were nothing alike. But why do people constantly believe that those relationships are the only models for what a loving relationship can be? The struggles that Sasuke and Sakura faced during Gaiden were not due to issues with each other, but rather, they were shown facing hurdles which they overcame together. They were perfectly happy with each other, and not once did their dedication to one another ever falter during Sasuke's mission. Just because the couple faced hard times does not mean their bond is any weaker. On the contrary, the fact they they faced those hard times together and came out of them just as strong if not stronger than before, is a testament to the strength of the relationship.

You wanna know what I don't see? I don't see people questioning Neji and Hinata's relationship despite Neji trying to kill her during the Chuunin Exams. I don't see people questioning Hiashi's feelings towards Hinata despite essentially disowning her because he deemed her to be a failure. I don't see people questioning Gaara being the Kazekage despite him previously being feared as a killing machine who slaughtered many innocent people, by the very same villagers who now respect him as their leader. I don't see people questioning why Kabuto was trusted to become the head of the Orphanage and taking care of the future of the village, despite being a notorious war criminal. No, but of course people will question SS right? Despite them just being another example of the same theme.

It's either Kishimoto implying Sasuke does not love her, either Kishimoto intending to portray his idea of a good relationship/loving husband through SS and failing miserably.

Kishi flat out said, that the love between the Uchiha family is the real deal. He's not implying anything, and if he truly failed at depicting this, then SS wouldn't have consistently proven to be the most popular canonised pairing for years following the manga's ending.

Sasuke did not look happy when he saw Sakura in Gaiden first time after 10 years of absence.

And you think that's indicative that he doesn't love her? Are you serious? The entire time, Sasuke was very clearly shown to be aggravated because people who weren't supposed to be at his and Naruto's secret meeting place kept showing up. He didn't look happy when first meeting Naruto either, despite not seeing him for just as long. So what? You think that means he doesn't care about Naruto either? He was aggravated that Sarada was there because she was supposed to be in the village safe from all this, he was annoyed with Naruto for allowing the kids to follow him in the first place, and yeah, he didn't jump for joy when seeing Sakura because again, she was meant to be watching over Sarada in the village. One of the biggest incentives for his secrecy was to keep Sarada safe, and everything that was happening then, was the opposite of that.

He couldn't even bother to send a letter to her and Sarada to let them know he was alright and thinking about them during this period. And no, please don't come at me with that bullshit excuse that he didn't keep in contact because he wanted to keep the secrecy of his mission and did not want any private information to leak and that's why he was only keeping in contact with the Hokage or whatever. No one says that if he ever bothered to write them he had to go into details about his mission. He could've just told them he's alright, that he misses them and hopes they're fine and that would've been great too and wouldn't have compromised his mission in any way.

You can call it a "bullshit excuse" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that this is the reason that was given. But it's like people just refuse to acknowledge the fact that Sasuke admitted that he had made a big mistake, and refused to allow Sakura to apologise because he knew that he was the one at fault:

I mean what? Do people think that Sasuke has to be perfect or something? Is he not a human who makes mistakes just like everyone else? Sasuke knew that he took his secrecy too far, he hadn't anticipated the adverse affects his absence would have on Sarada, and he apologised for his mistake. Why? Because he cares, for goodness sake it's not hard to comprehend. I seriously would have never thought that people would actually question whether or not he loves his family. Why would Kishi promote a loveless marriage in his manga aimed at young boys? It just boggles the mind. If Sasuke didn't care about them, he wouldn't have thought he did anything wrong by his lack of contact with his daughter. I emphasise with his daughter because Sakura was still somewhat in contact with Sasuke as she was kept informed of what he was doing.

In my opinion Kishimoto wrote SS in this ambiguous way to appease both the SS haters and the SS shippers.

Why would Kishi care about appeasing the same fans who harassed him so badly following the manga's conclusion, that his editior had to respond in broken English and basically tell those entitled children that the story doesn't belong to them? I'll reiterate that there's nothing "ambiguous" about their relationship, nor is Kishi implying anything. Gaiden made it crystal clear, that the love between the Uchiha family is the real deal, there's nothing ambiguous about that statement, there's nothing ambiguous about Sasuke giving Sakura the forehead poke, and there's nothing ambiguous about Sasuke flat out clarifying that his heart is connected to Sakura's.