#I need to watch the Buu arc

[unkownknowledge]

I wish there was a Saiyaman spin off.

I wanna see Gohan dealing with threats to earth that show up in the city, but he figures noone else is available and just deals with it himself.

Cell crawls back out of hell more powerful than before and he still only accepts Piccolo's help because he was helping him and Videl shop at the time and "hey might as well get a Saiyathree!"

And yes Piccolo must wear the fit and do the pose this is mandatory.

[galexibrain]

Something, something ... parallels. When I was 10yo and watching DBZ for the first time, when it was first aired in Germany, this was my favourite scene in the entirety of DBZ, and it still is to this day:

When the people of Earth all give their energy for the final genkidama that's supposed to finish off Buu.

Linking the German version so you can experience the original soundtrack (I'm sorry, the US dub soundtrack (and the Kai soundtrack for the Buu Saga) can NOT measure up the glory of the original one, and I'm so grateful the German dub kept it):

I was (and am to this day) utterly in love with this particular track, so much that I simply needed to have it with me, at all times.

And here's how I got it in ye olden days before Youtube (well, before I had internet access and knew about YT to MP3 converting lmao):

I had this particular episode taped on VHS (I'm That Old)

I took my phone (Nokia that had the luxury of a COLOR display) and recorded the track. You could literally hear the people cheer on the recording

I put this recording on my phone and listened to it

Yes the quality was crappy. I didn't care

Now, I have it on my MP3 player lol. Still randomly listen to it sometimes <3

So, the things about DBZ that were the most formative to me are: this scene, and Vegeta (who started my love for reformed villains and redemption arcs).

Ok, this has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make, I just needed to clarify just how emotionally invested I am here.

Now, two decades later, Super gives me this:

Moro Arc, DBS chapter 61

Do y'all understand what this did to me?! Do you even have the slightest idea what I am going through here?

They probably thought nothing of it, but back in the Buu Saga it was Vegeta who came up with the genkidama plan: to take the energy of everyone on Earth, and other planets too, to defeat an enemy too strong for any single person to handle.

Vegeta, the guy who's perpetually allergic to ask for help.

Now, it's Vegeta who does the opposite, and yet, the same: he takes energy that was stolen, and returns it to where it belongs, literally giving people their lives back in some cases. (The symbolism of the Namekians being the ones revived by him is CRAZY.)

And the imagery is so similar? I just. ??!?!?!?! HOW AM I TO DEAL.

ALSO:

DB ch. 515 & 516:

Goku receiving the energy from Earth, perfecting the genkidama, and he throws it.

And now:

Super, ch. 66:

That's the god ki Uub sent, and Vegeta is the one to throw it to Goku to give him the power he needs to end Moro.

And that power literally comes from the reincarnation of the very being they destroyed last time? OH WOW.

(Initially I wasn't so sure what to think about this particular point but hey, the D in Dragon Ball stands for Deus Ex Machina, so ... whatever.)

I'm like. Did they do this on purpose? Is this coincidence?

How am I supposed to be normal about any of this?

Also funny how Buu Saga was the whackiest in DBZ while Moro Saga in DBS is a goddamn fucking masterpiece.

[tobiasdrake]

Alright, here we go with Dragon Ball Daima, episode 3. Onward, to Daimakai!

Hold up, hold up. The transit space is called Warp-sama? With the -sama honorific, which is meant to show respect to venerable elders and mentors and stuff? XD

...I have to know what the dub calls it. One sec.

...

...

Wait, is Daima not being... I think the word is dualcast? Where they release both the dub and sub alongside each other.

Huh. I just assumed.

*google google*

...they're not releasing the dub on Crunchyroll because they want people to turn out for a theatrical release of the first three episodes.

I. Don't know enough about Western anime releases to know if that's weird or not. But it's definitely one solid

from me. Uh. Have fun at Regal Cinema, I guess?

First portion of this episode is spent making the journey through Warp-sama in order to reach Daimakai. Which would probably be more impactful if we hadn't already spent a bunch of time watching King Gomah make the same trip previously.

Like. This would be really awesome to go through for the very first time right alongside Goku, with the same sense of wonder he has, while Glorio's explaining how it all works.

But now I'm just like, "I don't care. I've seen this. I understand what this is. You're rehashing. Get to the new stuff."

Which only reinforces my opinion that the first episode is bad. After spending half an episode watching a Dragon Ball Z clip show, they then proceeded to shortsightedly ruin the beginning to episode 3. This should have been our first exposure to Warp-sama.

I am too, mainly because the closing credits indicated that Bulma, Vegeta, and Piccolo will make it to Daimakai. But I am curious how the PIN number will play into things.

Hopefully this means Team Bulma will get to explore the bureaucracy of Warp-sama and build that out a bit while Goku's having demon adventures.

Especially since it looks like Goku now has a roadmap for getting to Makai #1 without needing to go through Warp-sama to do it. So if Team Bulma does come through Warp-sama, they can probably just meet up with him in Makai #2 or something.

Much like the offhandedly established Tamagami, these pathways blocked by light barriers that we just happen to be passing by reek of plot-building.

Glorio is ominously evasive about his work. TAKING ALL BETS!!! The true nature of his job is:

1 - Something really questionable, like an assassin or personal minion to King Gomah. He can't say it because then Goku and Kaioshin wouldn't trust him.

2 - Something really embarrassing, like King Gomah's pillow fluffer. He can't say it because he wants these guys to take him seriously as a mysterious shonen badass.

This being Dragon Ball, it could go either way.

That Kaioshin too comes from Makai retroactively adds an interesting layer to how fearful he was of Dabra back in the Buu arc. Like.

Before, the context was just that this guy is the strongest guy in all the known realities. He's the ruler of Makai and he makes the mortal realm's strongest, Frieza, look like weak-ass horseshit by comparison. Kaioshin, a legendary super god whose very existence was considered mythical by gods, knew of him by reputation. And what he knew was that this guy is the most to be feared.

But with the new Daimakai lore, Kaioshin was actually one of Dabra's subjects once upon a time. His fear of Dabra isn't reputational; He grew up under Dabra and knows what he's capable of.

And then, one day, he saw Dabra made a puppet to Babidi and brought to the mortal realm. To revive Majin Buu.

Between "Everyone's turned into children again and can't use their abilities effectively anymore" and "The air in Daimakai is super heavy and makes everything sluggish", there's a lot of nerfs in play right now.

It makes sense. They want to do a big RPG fantasy adventure starting from level 1 but with a cast who can sneeze too hard and accidentally break seven universes. There's an effort on display here to try and avoid the "Goten and Trunks are menaced by the STRONGEST SNAKE IN THE UNIVEEEEEEEEERSE" problem that DBS (and GT and often the Z anime, for that matter) had.

Characters don't need to constantly forget that they can fly and teleport and shoot galaxy-crushing super-beams if you bake in a reason why they can't do those things right now.

That said....

Kaioshin ain't kidding. This is moving slow. We're fifteen minutes into a twenty-three minute episode. Apart from the briefest possible altercation with bandits we didn't even get to fight, all we've done is sit in the plane while Glorio reads off entries from the Daimakai Fandom Wiki to us.

Toei, I said this in episode 1 and I'll reiterate: You don't need to write like you're giving the manga space to get ahead.

Riveting stuff. I am on the edge of my seat for Glorio staring into the camera and monotonously explaining Makai #3's geology.

I'm sure this is being established so that it can come up in an interesting way later down the road. I'm just saying, there are better ways to convey information to your audience than by having a character emotionlessly read worldbuilding entries from the Story Bible for 3/4 of an episode.

Robbing the hotel manager that was trying to extort them is the first interesting thing we've seen Glorio do so far. Particularly interesting is his holstered gun, which he used to abruptly cut the bandit attack short a moment ago so he could resume explaining the lore.

It's easy to overlook as an American, given that everyone and their dog seems to have seven different firearms stored under their pillow, on the kitchen table, in the baby's crib, wherever. But having a gun in Japan is a Big Fucking Deal.

So that is certainly interesting.

But at this point, this character certainly has me waiting for the other shoe to drop. He is so deadly serious. There has to be a punchline coming. The ending credits seem to imply that he's got like a little sister or something that will be joining us and I can't wait to meet her because I bet she's going to take the wind out of his sails hard.

Right now, he feels like a straight man in search of an absurd counterpart to bounce jokes off him. Goku and Kaioshin are too busy bouncing jokes off each other to do that.

Ahhh, Toei loves "Big Eater Goku" jokes.

Fortunately, we're far enough removed from everyone constantly popping a Senzu that Goku having his huge appetite back won't constitute a plot hole.

That was a big deal in the Z anime, which pretty much abandoned the "Eating a Senzu means Goku won't need to eat a truckload of food for a full week" rule immediately so they could keep doing Truckload of Food jokes.

But as long as we keep Goku an entire reality away from Senzu, Toei can do as many Truckload of Food gags as they want without adversely affecting the show's consistency.

...I want a Makai hamburger now.

What is the beef made of? Do they have cows in Makai? I bet they have demon cows. Fire-breathing demon cows.

Hey, Exposition Guy, tell me about the fire-breathing demon cows. Can we go fight one?

Oh, Goku had the same question.

...shit, it's probably people. Aww.

That won't bother Goku, though. He is entirely comfortable with cooking and eating sapient beings. I mean, he didn't eat Cymbal, but he was party to it.

YOU, SIR, ARE A WOLF

I know we've established that having pointy ears means you're from Makai. But that man is a wolf. His ear pointiness is entirely incidental and a product of being animal people.

I don't think he's from here. I think he's a fake Majin. I think Earthling animal people are sneaking over here and pretending to be locals.

Goku barfighting local thugs while trying to enjoy his demonburgers is the best part of the episode. Especially for how few fucks Glorio gives about this.

He did a little bit of the fighting to get the action scene started. But then he was just like:

"Ehh, naptime. You guys are on your own."

It's a super fun action sequence, though. Again, the nerfs really help with making a "Goku gets attacked by ruffians" not feel out-of-place. The groundwork has been laid for why Goku can't just punch the air and shockwave them all unconscious in 0.5 seconds flat.

It also helps that Goku doesn't really seem threatened at all by these guys. Instead, he treats this as a training exercise to help him acclimate his body to the thick Makai #3 atmosphere.

So this isn't just a Random Encounter. There's a legitimate narrative reason for him to be fighting them that's in keeping with Goku's personality and character - and also consequences that the episode promises for next episode, too.

But the stakes and the tension are nonetheless kept at a level that seems appropriate for a fight between Goku and some bar thugs.

This is good. More of this, please.

[ddrqoyote]

How I'd Rewrite DBZ's Fusion Saga

I like the rest of the Buu Arc, but the Fusion Saga's a hot mess (the part with Super Buu). This is how I wish the story had gone.

Buildup

Gotenks is hyped a little less. He's still presented as stronger than Goku and their best chance to beat Buu, but he's not stronger than Super Saiyan 3 as a regular Super Saiyan or anything. Piccolo figures if he can reach Super Saiyan 2, he'll be able to beat Buu. This adds some tension to his training and to the part of the fight where he screws around in weaker forms. Is he really on Buu's level or not? And the emphasis on Super Saiyan 2 makes it more shocking when he blows right past that to 3.

The scene from the anime where Krillin buys time for everyone and Buu turns them into candy anyway is here, cause that isn't actually in the manga. Goku and Gohan are watching through the crystal ball hoping they can revive them with the Dragon Balls, but Supreme Kai says no. If any power in the universe could bring the Kais or all of Buu's victims back "from the outside", he would have done it millennia ago, but once Buu eats someone they're absorbed into him. Even killing him wouldn't separate anyone.

Goku's horrified and demands to go back to Earth, and Supreme Kai wishes there was a way… then Elder Kai says just give him your life force if you want it that bad. Facepalming at everyone's blank stares, he explains Supreme Kais can trade their life for someone else's. Supreme Kai does it, Goku's returned to life, and we get the gag where Supreme Kai is still there cause this is the afterlife. However, Elder Kai tells Goku not to go back to Earth yet because his Super Saiyan 3 power is limited and he needs to save it for the right moment. (He really wants his champion Gohan to get all the glory, but he doesn't say so till later.)

Once Gotenks goes Super Saiyan 3 he's stronger than Buu, but it's immediately clear it won't last. His ki is erratic, burning up inside. Super Saiyan 3 isn't supposed to exist. There's a reason it looks so ridiculous, shortens fusion time and Goku can't use it right with a living body. It's pushing things too far, past Saiyan limits, past any mortal's limit (and it's Toriyama taking the piss on his own powerscaling, just like Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans). The point is it wouldn't last a whole episode. Just like canon he defuses just as he's about to land a big blow.

Gohan arrives. Unlike canon, he doesn't play with his food. First, we just saw that with Gotenks. Second, that was the mistake that got his dad killed with Cell. Third, the stakes are even higher: all his friends and family are either killed by Buu or about to be. Lastly, Gohan's supposed to be all grown up in this scene, so why is he acting like a child? It's insulting to his character to have him do the same thing again. The outcome is similar, but the mood is different. Eventually Buu explodes, baits Gotenks into fusing, and absorbs him and Piccolo like in canon.

But this time, it's part of the plan.

The Better Buu Fight

We get a flashback. Piccolo's been talking to everyone telepathically. Gohan told him about Buu's absorption ability, and Piccolo figures he'll try to absorb them if he's losing. Piccolo's absorbed people himself, so he understands how it works, and he has a little of that Dragon Clan magic in him. He can put a spell on Gotenks so he'll be able to move around inside Buu when he gets absorbed, and hopefully get everyone out. Then Gohan and Gotenks can kill him and save the world.

Unfortunately, there are two snags in the plan. First, Buu's magic is more powerful than Piccolo's. Gotenks gets defused and Buu takes most of his power, leaving Goten and Trunks alone inside. Second, Piccolo underestimated Buu's appetite; he's absorbed too. Gohan is all alone to fight a hyper-powered eater of worlds.

Here's where we get into how Buu's absorption works. He doesn't change outfits or faces or personalities, he doesn't get smarter. Erratic, impatient predator Buu is way more interesting than Cell 2.0. What he can do is read memories. He taunts Gohan with these like a deep-sea fish dangling a lure, not fully understanding them but knowing they get a reaction. Stolen techniques, voice impressions, callbacks to previous moments. He's got Chi-Chi, Piccolo, Krillin and Goten in there. There's a LOT to work with.

This is the big centerpiece fight of the Fusion Saga, Gohan's first even fight ever, a grieving son vs a cornered animal, both using every trick in their arsenal. There are no Potaras in this version. Gohan is the world's last hope. Their powers are equal, but combine the emotional warfare with all Buu's broken abilities and Gohan has no chance at winning. He doesn't have to, though. He just has to survive long enough for Goten and Trunks to pull everyone out of him… however long that takes.

The whole time Goku's watching from the Kai world. Now he knows how all his friends feel when he fights. He was sidelined against the androids, sure, but he knew he had a way to get stronger. This time there's nothing he can do but watch. But he's amazed at how strong and brave his son's gotten. Even Goten's doing his part. He regrets not being there to watch them grow. The story doesn't dwell on it but it's there.

Meanwhile Goten and Trunks are inside Buu, having similar adventure hijinks Goku and Vegeta did in canon, complete with Trunks' fear of worms. There's underlying tension in the silliness, though, cause instead of seasoned veteran heroes it's these two little kids in the world's strangest place. Occasionally there's booming noises from the battle outside. They both put on brave faces for each other. Still, this is mostly a break from the Gohan vs Buu nonstop action, and a last bit of adventure before the series ends.

Eventually, just as Gohan uses up the last of his strength, they make it to where all the pods are stored. Before they can blast anyone down, though, Buu appears inside and defends them. There's nothing the boys can do… until Piccolo bursts out of his pod and grabs him from behind. He used his spell on himself to stay conscious and waited for the right moment. Buu shakes him off fast, but not fast enough to stop the boys from freeing everyone. As Buu howls in anger and confusion, they childishly decide to free Good Buu to see what will happen.

As everyone escapes, Buu's roars shake the Earth. Everyone congratulates themselves on saving everybody and their friends… except Buu's reforming. He's weaker, yes, and less intelligent, no match for Gohan or Gotenks at full power… but they're not. Everyone's completely drained. Panting and bent, they stare up at Kid Buu charging up his Planet Burst and know there's nothing they can do about it. As the ball comes down they feel Goku's faint ki. He's back on Earth after Elder Kai finally admitted he was just making things more dramatic, but Super Saiyan 3 would take too long. He only has time to save Dende and Mr. Satan. Gohan thinks to himself, "We softened him up for you, Dad. Do what you do best." The Earth is no more.

Supreme Kai teleports Vegeta to his planet, and the Kid Buu fight plays out like canon, except Goku never says he could've killed Fat Buu at any time in their last fight. That was dumb. He tried his best, he just couldn't do it alone. And yes, the god sacrificing himself to bring the main character back to life does nothing on Earth (Supreme Kai could've gone to Earth to save people like he did in the anime) and makes the Kid Buu fight harder. One last gag for the road.

What's the point of this?

Goku was right to give the next generation a chance and trust them in a real battle. They can't live their whole lives in his shadow. But just because his sons are ready doesn't mean he needs to disappear. Different generations have to live together and work with each other. That's what happens here. The Fusion Saga and Kid Buu Saga feel more like two halves of an extended final battle. With Piccolo's help, Gohan and Gotenks finish the first leg of the fight so Goku and Vegeta can take it home. Neither group can beat Buu alone. It'd also explain why Goku's fine coming back at the end, because he's learned that lesson too.

P.S. I wish I could've put Vegito in somehow, I love the fanservice, but I think it's worth it not having him. I also like the idea that no one actually beats Buu at full power one-on-one. He's the god-killing final villain, he should feel intimidating. And I'm sure the Toei movie makers would've loved being the only ones to have a Goku/Vegeta fusion. They made some good stuff at the end of the Buu Arc, throw them a bone lol.

[greatwyrmgold]

I've been thinking about Team Four Star.

For reasons I'm not privy to, TFSdecided to end their flagship Dragon Ball Z Abridged series six years ago. On Christmas day, 2018, they uploaded the Cell Arc epilogue, and that was that. For a while there were plans to do the Bojack movie and the Buu Arc, but I guess they lost their passion or struggled over creative disagreements or just got sick of Shueisha's copyright claims.

So TFS pivoted to other creative projects, hoping to use the skills they developed over a decade of abridging anime and the audience they gathered to launch new projects. How did those go?

DBZA season 3 videos generally have 10-20 million views. The roughly contemporaneous Hellsing Ultimate Abridged and FF7 Machinabridged series have less; HUA hovers around ten million views an episode, FF7M about a million. TFS also have a few other anime-parody-ish projects, like the intermittent "X Minutes" series. "Demon Slayer in 6 Minutes!" has about six million views, but their other X Minutes (and similar videos with different branding) hover around a million views.

TFS tried tried all-original projects, too. They've made a few video essays; the best-performing by far is "Beastars is Beastars," with almost 800K views. The others have about an eighth to a quarter as many views.

More notable are the TFS Originals, which includes individual skits and whole series alike. Most of these do about as well as the video essays, with view counts between 60k and 140k. The pilots for Fist Master and Unabridged have almost half a million views each. Unabridged is by far the most popular of their series; I don't know if that's because more than two episodes were made, or if those episodes were made because it was more popular.

Good numbers by the standards of general YouTube. Not so good by the standards of channels with 4.3 million subscribers and a series which drew tens of millions of views for a decade.

And of course, TFS still does Dragon Ball stuff. There are the Dragon ShortZ, and the HFIL series. Both start with view counts above five million, with the most recent entries having around a million views. That's lower than any DBZA episode or movie, even the awkwardly-bifurcated Christmas Tree of Might, but it's better than anything else they've been uploading.

Well, until the Buu Bits came along. Little fragments of what DBZA Season 4 might have been, they were made for TotallyNotMark's Buu Arc retrospective. And people loved them. View counts for most individual shorts are above two million, and the full compilation video has six and a half million views at time of writing.

That's wildly better than basically anything TFS has done since Hellsing Ultimate Abridged. The Buu Bits compilation was even more popular than the last episodes of Dragon Ball Abridged Kai, a series only technically distinct from DBZA.

This is what their audience wants.

Team Four Star wants to move on. They started three original animated series between 2018 and 2021, for Kai's sake! But they only got 1-2 episodes each, probably because animation is hard. Team Four Star isn't just a bunch of peers and friends making silly internet videos any more; it's their job.

If TFS is going to spend all the time and effort and money needed to make more DieselDust, they need to be able to see some return on that investment. They can't pay everyone a living wage with less than a hundred thousand views of ad revenue, sponsorships aren't gonna pay much without more viewers, and good luck selling Kadence merch.

You know what does pay? More stuff that's DBZA-adjacent, but original enough that it doesn't trip YouTube's copyright bots. Team Four Star's fans will come back and watch Abridged!Cell and Abridged!Guru and the other villains tooling around in HFIL, and maybe some will buy an orange!Piccolo "DODGE" shirt or buy their sponsor's stuff while they're there.

That's sad. Team Four Star aren't master storytellers, but they shouldn't have to be to pursue their passion. They have so much more backing them up than 99.9% of artists; they have a platform and millions of fans and more than a decade of work proving their skills.

But that's not enough. They tried, and they failed, and they're returning to the old hits. Their original series aren't unsuccessful, but they're not successful enough to justify making more. TFS gets more eyeballs on their DBZA creator commentary videos than they do for original series.

TFS didn't want to make more DBZA (if they did, they would have), so they compromised. Most of their videos from the past couple years are Dragon-Ball-related in some way; HFIL skits, or Buu Bits, or Dragon ShortZ, or the aforementioned creator commentary. They wrapped up Unabridged last year; that was their most successful original series, and they haven't replaced it with anything.

I'm not sure how to wrap this up. I've followed TFS for about a decade, for most of DBZA season 3 and beyond. I wish I could say I've watched them grow creatively, but while they're clearly more skilled than they were when they made DBZA season 1, they've been stuck in a rut by their material circumstances and business needs. HFIL and Dragon ShortZ are basically DBZA, but freed from the limitations of editing DBZ footage and sticking to DBZ's story.

[dragonballwish]

Here's my Dragon Ball hot take, Future Trunks should have been the protagonist of his own series because he is the "Goku" of his world. I don't think he should've been in the Buu Saga but Super could've of if not should've been about him becoming Xeno Trunks instead of what we got

honestly youre so right for this, its absolutely ridiculous how they handled the whole future timeline,,,, it could have definitely been its own thing and benefitted way more as that instead of..... yeah. sobs. i think super didn't need a future timeline at all? honestly, because I think even the xenoverse games did it so much better and so much more interesting than super's canon. well.

also, i think trunks is a really good character for being a main protagonist. I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy watching him as a main character, too. a spinoff with this instead of the entire arc we got in super, and I think a lot of people would have been more happy lol. like,, dragon ball fans clearly eat all the extra content up anyways djfhkdfg

im not too sure about Super being all about him as a protagonist, but at the very least they should have left his blueberry self out of it

[ ooo you wanna send me your thoughts and feelings on dragon ball so bad oooo you wanna send me some hot takes and complaints and grievances ooo ]

[antibioware]

Majin Buu arc is quite bad still (stakes so high they become pseudo ridiculous, the constant alternating between comedy skits clashes against the tone the arc set initially) but nostalgia hits hard in watching all these guys I watched as little kids be grown up married with kids and dying intermittently

That, and also does the final arc of DBZ need to be good? Isn't it enough to see Piccolo get tortured by preteens for 50 straight chapters

[duhragonball]

I found the zamazu saga easier to watch then gt because I could at least not think and just go: oooohhh pretty light show. Like a moth. Unfortunately that's how I've gotten around most of the bad writing, is ooohhh pretty light show, or growing to like a character. (I.e: Buu) but I get it, it's like watching the live action atla at times.

I mean, yeah, a lot of people seem to enjoy Zamasu/Goku Black as a character, or the arc as a whole. I don't get it, and I feel like a jerk if I accuse them of not paying attention while they watched it. There's a Tumblr Sexyman vibe to Zamasu, and Goncharov has shown us that fans can derive enjoyment out of things that may not even exist. So even a bad run of a show can still get people on board.

For my part, it's a lot easier for me to just roll with it when it's something like Super Dragon Ball Heroes, where they're not even trying to pretend this is a coherent story with continuity or stakes. I still don't understand how Zamasu is even in SDBH, and the character even refuses to explain it when asked, but somehow that makes him a lot easier to take.

Maybe the problem here is that DBS presented itself as this official continuation of DB continuity, which means it has a lot more to prove than it would if it were a silly side story. One of the weaker movies can get a pass because it's kind of a standalone side-story, but a genuine sequel has to measure up to the original. It doesn't just have to be well-made; it has to justify its own claim to be a continuation worth telling.

The Star Wars sequel trilogy has that problem. Movies like Rogue One and Solo can kind of get a free pass, but when you name your movie "Episode VII" you're asking the audience for a lot of their trust. In this case the Zamasu arc was presented as the direct continuation of Future Trunks' storyline in DBZ, and people had a lot of strong feelings about what that needs to be. I know I wanted to see Trunks acknowledge his career in the Time Patrol, because I like that version of events better. Other fans surely had their own ideas for what should happen to him next, and other fans probably wondered what the point was with even continuing his story at all. So you're almost guaranteed to tick someone off no matter what you do with the character in that arc.

[jacquelinemerritt]

Dragon Ball Z: Abridged Episode 27 Review

Originally posted December 4th, 2015

The chaos before the storm.

This is a very good episode of Dragonball Z: Abridged, but I���m beginning to question how much of the credit for that should be given to Team Four Star versus how much should be given to the strength of the source material. Having never watched that much of the original show, I’m curious how much better the story tends to get once it approaches the final fight of the arc, because it’s definitely been the case that Dragonball Z: Abridged gets significantly better when they get to that point in the story.

Last episode, of course, clearly benefited from the hand of Team Four Star, since it sped through material that I imagine the show took multiple episodes to get through, but in regards to earlier reviews, I may have criticized Team Four Star too much for their pacing when the blame lay on Toriyama for dragging out the story for far too long.1

Of course, Team Four Star’s hand is pretty clearly present in the acting and writing of this episode, both of which are at the best they’ve been in the series so far. “The Saiyan Formerly Known as Prince” is on par with “A Lovely Bunch of Dragonballs” in both camps.

The standout performances here are obviously LittleKuriboh and Lanipator as Freeza and Vegeta, with Freeza being more fun and brutal than we’ve seen him yet and Vegeta’s arrogance pushing him into uncharted realms of stupidity.

The writing also works incredibly well, swiftly establishing the power of Freeza’s final form (and simultaneously how much fun it’s gonna be to see him get his ass kicked). The rest of the episode is then spent tormenting Vegeta as Freeza slowly pushes him to his emotional edge.

It is only when Vegeta has been knocked down a peg that we get the arrival of (Deus ex) Goku, who naturally shows up to taunt Freeza by simply being himself. And then, because it wouldn’t be an episode during the final fight without it, we see Vegeta die, properly setting the stage for Goku’s fight and thrusting us into the second act of the fight.

Rating: 5/5

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Stray Observations

1I’m probably gonna watch all of Dragonball Z: Kai over the break so I can get a better sense of Toriyama’s pacing (that or read through the Freeza, Cell, and Buu sagas).

Goku: “Oh come on, King Kai, I’m sure they’re doing just fine!” Vegeta: “Healer’s down!” Krillin: “Need a res!” Gohan: “Out of mana!” All: “AAAHHH!!!”

Vegeta: “You know, all of you better duck, because I’m about to turn left, and I don’t want to smack you with my dick.” Never change, Vegeta. Never change.

Krillin, I too am confused as to how “Old Space Yeller” is a thing.

Goku: “So, are you that freezer guy?” Freeza: “I am Lord Freeza, yes.” Goku: “Awesome. Imma deck you in the schnoz!”

Goku: “I’m Goku! I’m insane! From Earth!”

Freeza: “Between you and the Namekian, I think I’ve lost my touch at genocide.”

[meep9898]

Has Meep watched Dragon Ball Daima? It's two episodes in and its great!

Haven't watched it, and it isn't on my list, at least not for now. Being honest, other than the Super Broly movie, I haven't watched or read anything beyond Z. Don't get me wrong, I do like Dragon Ball, but I have no real interest for more of it. I believe the story had no need to go on after the Buu arc.

[gettothedancing]

What are your top 5 favorite anime?

Princess Tutu - gorgeous in every way, a story that does the concept of a multilayered narrative justice while also using the beauty of ballet and fairy tales to their full emotional advantages, and also the name helps gatekeep, because if you can't get past the name you aren't the sort of person who would enjoy it anyway. I can't recommend it highly enough. Available here

Kill la Kill - amazing and energetic animation, a unique story with a surprising family theme, and probably the coolest modern take on the delinquent girl archetype. I did resist watching it at first because of the lack of under-boob support on Ryuko's outfit, but honestly, it no longer bothers me. There are valid story reasons behind all the costume designs. Again, this has the beneficial side-effect of automatic gatekeeping. Available here

Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters - peak early 2000s character design, tons of merchandising money to fund legitimately good filler arcs and hire high quality animation directors (sometimes), a hero that actually has the worst win-loss record of all the protagonists of his franchise (but still retains the largest fanbase and greatest admiration for his skills and personal character), multiple engaging character arcs, and my personal favorite. This is the one most affected by nostalgia. YGO was my first fandom outside of Disney, the first thing I was really into that neither my parents nor my younger sister cared about, and it remains incredibly important to me. It took me 10 years to be able to watch the final two seasons, as my local channel for some reason decided to only play the first 2.5 seasons over and over. Those final seasons were not at all disappointing either; I loved them entirely, even with all their flaws and animation issues. I'd never claim that YGO is perfect, especially since I prefer the 4Kids dub to the original; yet even the subbed version, which I have also seen, has issues as a story. The original manga is superior to BOTH versions, if we're being honest. But this anime is amazing, fun, wholesome (without being lame, particularly the sub; the dub can be pretty lame) and long without being impossible to finish. The dub is available here (w, x, y, z), but to get the subbed version, you either have to pay through the nose or search the bowels of the Internet. Might as well try the dub: even if you don't like 4Kids, you can have fun laughing at them, and all the changes the dub made were meticulously catalogued here.

Dragon Ball - one of the best shonen ever, with an amazing world, strong characters that stay simple without being simpletons, and a slow, savory pace that makes every fight pop. I binged the entire (subbed) show in March 2020 when I had to stay home during the initial lockdown. It was exactly the cheery, grounded, fun shot in the arm that I needed when things were still uncertain and scary in my world. While I enjoy Z and parts of Super, the original is far better: more consistent in quality, pacing, and relevant themes. It's here and here right now. If you're already a fan, Totally Not Mark has some huge video essays reviewing both the entire franchise arc-by-arc and analyzing the major characters of the franchise. (The Buu arc review features Team Four Star ^_^)

Akage no Anne - one of the best works of World Masterpiece Theater and directed by future Studio Ghibli director Isao Takahata; a picture-perfect adaptation of Anne of Green Gables made for Japanese ESL education that managed to capture the pace, feelings, and gradual growth of its cast. With dreamy sequences to represent Anne's imagination and mirror the long descriptive passages of the book, the series grounds itself with simple and realistic character designs that change slowly over the course of the series to reflect the passing of time. It's from 1979, so it's even less fancy looking than Dragon Ball (1986), and Anne's initial design looks a bit awkward since she's pretty awkward and underfed at the start. But don't be fooled. Not only is this the closest adaptation I've seen to the book, but it manages to reflect Anne's rich, emotional inner world without relying on narration or a diary. It uses silence in a very mature way. Although Akage no Anne was not at all the beginning of Japan's love affair with Anne Shirley, it has become a cornerstone of that fandom in Japan. And if you love Isao Takahata's work like I do, seeing one of his earliest works is a pure joy. It's actually available on YouTube; this version has been up for 7 years straight, but I'd urge anyone interested to watch it sooner rather than later. You never know when a YT anime playlist will disappear.

Honorable Mention: Maison Ikkoku - this is one of my favorite manga, one I liked enough to collect in full and read multiple times. The anime is beautiful, and unlike some adaptations of Rumiko's work, it doesn't delve into alternate characterizations or themes. It's an iconic 1980s anime and I love what I've seen of it. But I can't put it higher because I've never been able to see all of it. Occasionally I've been able to watch episodes on YouTube with French subs, but I'm not fluent in French, so I only know what's going on because I'm so familiar with the manga. I still recommend it as a mature seinen romance/comedy. If anyone knows where I can watch or legally obtain it, I'd be very grateful.

[galexibrain]

I can see how Vegeta was so intensely pissed about Gohan not keeping up with his training during the 7-year skip.

He's grudgingly respecting this ridiculously strong brat who, at the time, was one of only three saiyan fighters.

And I think he kind of accepted that? That Gohan was the benchmark now that Goku was gone.

After seven years Vegeta is undoubtedly stronger than Gohan was during Cell games, Gohan's rage-triggered power bursts aside. Maybe he would even have liked to fight Gohan at some point, to see whether he could surpass him.

But then Gohan just ... throws it away, at least he does in Vegeta's eyes. Vegeta can't fathom a saiyan who doesn't want to be the strongest fighter in the universe.

And then he's already tense bc his rematch with Goku is at risk bc of Babidi, and now he has to watch Gohan struggle against Dabura, an enemy he could have defeated with one hand seven years ago. And Vegeta knows he could do it now! Because he trained for this!

And that drives him so mad.

Can't say I enjoy Majin Vegeta arc but he probably needed that. He never officially became one of the "good guys". And he tried to go back to who he once was - and for a moment it was fun! Inhibitions gone, not having to care about anyone anymore, all that must have felt nice.

Going from prince of the saiyans to Freezer's henchman to second-best who's defeated by numerous enemies so many times must have meant a lot oif resentment, frustration and indignation. He'd bottled that all up for years, never actually processing any of it, and now he could finally get it out of his system! Yeah!

But then the rage blew away, and what remained? A family to protect, and after that fight with Goku - which wasn't even as satisfying as he'd thought it'd be! - being a proud warrior and the prince of the saiyans suddenly meant something else.

And once he accepted that - maybe when he agreed with Goku to stop the fight, or when he felt Gohan's energy vanish, or when he realized he had zero chance at defeating Buu by himself, or when he hugged Trunks - he could finally accepted that he had changed, and the he was one of the good guys now, and didn't really want to go back to the old days. Because not being fucking lonely all the time? Kinda nice. (Just don't expect him to openly admit it ok.)

[dbzebra]

Alright this might be a bit spicy, but I don’t like when people say Vegeta is the main main character of Z.

Because first of all, you just know the people who say that haven’t read/watched OG. Z is not the whole story, it’s a continuation. Of Goku’s story. But some people just can’t handle that fact.

And additionally, I feel a lot of people say this because “he got all this character development in Z!” which, not really (I don’t think). Vegeta’s whole schedule consists of manic pixie dream girl, receive an ass-kicking, copium, rinse, repeat. Until the Buu Arc where he has a midlife crisis over having feelings.

Plus, character development does not a main main character make. That’d be like me saying “Zuko got all this character development in ATLA; that makes him the very main character!” See, it’s dumb.

IDK why I even felt the need to write/send this in. It’s not like I see this take much, since I don’t interact with that side of the fandom.

people actually say that?? tbh it's not surprising considering some of the totally out of pocket shit that Vegeta fans say LOL. But yeah, it really is just people who dont watch DB. It blows my mind how people can watch that show and see Vegeta is THE main character. He's literally a villain for half of it lmao.

I dont know what manic pixie dream girl means lmao but Vegeta's cycle of "Im the strongest" -> gets bodied -> whines is so funny to me lmao. The majority of his development is off screen. He says he grew to care for Bulma and Trunks but we really dont see that slow growth, outside of him losing his shit when Trunks died

Overall yeah I agree. Im glad you sent one!! Thanks for this :)

[pissvortex]

in terms of like artistic integrity or narrative cohesion the cell saga would have been the perfect place for dragon ball to end imo. like the buu saga and dragon ball super were fun to watch even if they were kind of dumb, and i guess that’s good enough reason as any to keep making dragon ball, but i feel like everyone’s character arcs tied up nicely with the cell saga. gohan learned that pacisifism in the face of great evil is complicity, vegeta learned to stop being so selfish, goku sacrificed himself to make up for the danger he put everyone in, tien got to beat the shit out of cell with tri beam, yamcha was still trying at least, piccolo fused with kami to become one being again, and krillin got some robot pussy. cell was an amalgamation of every technique and power up that had been used in the series up until that point, and they beat him with the unlikely hero (11 year old gohan). by all means they DIDNT need to keep making dragon ball after that, but i’m not all that upset that they did. it just would have tied together more nicely.

[dragonballwish]

i saw gohan discourse slightly veer into goten discourse so i can't help but share my most spicy take:

goten should have been the protagonist of dragon ball super. he (with trunks) should be the one who is goku's successor in his family and fights all those high-stakes world-saving battles, while gohan gets to spend time with his family and be a low-stakes superhero.

this might be a less popular interpretation, and ofc there were other factors such as goku's death and her own background/family pressure, but i honestly think that chi-chi has very keen intuition when it comes to her sons and discerned early on that gohan was more of a scholar and goten was more of a fighter.

anyway. goten and trunks being main characters of super with goku having a mature mentor role is my dream. and hey, they're the protagonists of the new super arc!! ..but i can't help but avoid getting my hopes up....

tl;dr goten needs more focus as a serious fighter (with trunks by his side ofc) and perhaps even feels strongly about taking that burden from his brother

YOU ARE SO RIGHT ABOUT THIS !!!!

Goten is LITERALLY the perfect candidate for a dragon ball protagonist because he's just like Goku (with ofc differences, but very much has Goku energy). We can watch him develop from the start !!! Instead of regressing Goku's character to something completely never before seen in all of DB in the worst way possible, they could have easily picked up where the series left off in the Buu saga and had Goten be the new adventurer, learning new techniques etc etc and fighting big bads that aren't so overly power-scaled

I cannot stress enough how right you are— literally, Goten was RIGHT THERE !!!!!! it makes me go insane

The fact that Toriyama was already trying to kill Goku off and make Gohan the protagonist is proof enough that the series really really needed change, at least for Toriyama's sanity, so the fact that they chose to do with super what they did,,,,,

Goten would so perfectly fit the role like. He's happy and optimistic and has a LOT of potential. He can easily bring back the shenanigans that were so prevalent in the original DB without breaking character or making himself look stupid... CMON...

And you're totally right about Chichi knowing what Gohan and Goten would want. I like this as a headcanon a lot, especially because it takes away a bit of the usual fandom interpretation of Chichi being pretty much a villain LMAO

Also, yeah, I have no hopes high for the new stuff since he's already looking a little sidelined :/ Goten is consistently given the short stick

[ join our gohan goten discourse time !!! ]

[izunias-meme-hole]

My first time watching a man go from a young man, to a cruel hearted monster, to a remorseful figure that changes himself in one final act. A lesson that people can be complicated, yet simplistic.

Not my first time seeing a “regular guy” doing what’s right, but certainly one that lingers in my mind in some capacity as the years go by.

They’re a good part of my childhood. These takes on the characters specifically not only reinvented their original dynamic, but showcased what it was in the clearest way possible. Two drastically different folks who want some change in their society, who have different ideas on how that can be done. Granted Optimus is the equivalent of an actually talented college dropout in this show, and Megatron was more of a mob boss mixed with a revolutionary, but I feel like the idea was still conveyed very well.

Ever since my introduction to him in Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros Wii when I was 5, he's kinda been a consistency in my childhood alongside a couple of other purely fun villains, but the main reason why I'm listing him is because I feel like whenever I see good ol' Bowser here, it's like seeing an old friend who pops up now and again. Guess that goes to show that some characters just happen to stick with you, even after a good amount of time.

A continuation of what I learned from Vader, complete with a redemption. Vegeta never started out as a “good guy,” in fact he was a total bastard who was only semi-sympathetic because he wanted to end a greater evil (For his own purposes but still). Yet as Z went on, I saw the changes in his character happen before my eyes, where it all eventually paid off at the end of the Cell Saga and Buu Saga. His arc felt slightly rushed due to it not being planned, but I never felt like it was unnatural.

I already knew that pride was a poison if left unrestrained, but curiosity being a spark to fuel it was something I never truly witnessed in detail so I never outright got it, until diving into Kingdom Hearts and learning about the OG KH Trilogy’s lore for Ansem back in late 2018. Hell looking back at the Ansem reports back in KH1, make me understand exactly how much of a believably dangerous combo it is because I can fully get the mindset of it now. I can relate to feeling the need to know more about certain things, so seeing that be brought to an extreme, in the form of flashiness and good writing (From 2002) had an effect on me.

I’ve seen the whole “power of friendship” shit before my dive into KH, but I feel like the approach to the concept in the first three games in the series was still handled the strongest through this kid, and I slowly appreciate him more everyday.

My love for Final Fantasy truly emerged because of this man showing up in KH and I will never not love him for that.

After playing through OoT and MM for the first time during the pandemic, I feel like there’s never been a character that’s embodied the idea of growing up too quick like this kid, and the fact that I was around 15 around that time, made his story stick to me some more. So consider me nostalgic.

The final evolution of what I learned from watching a fair share of antagonists over the years, but conveyed through a more irredeemable figure that is a best example of a simple yet complicated man. He's the same monster in all of his showings in some capacity, yet he always remains engaging as a character for a plethora of reasons that end up all accumulating to the most compelling showcase of self-destructiveness I have ever seen. A terrifying monster of a man who consistently, without fail, is often his own worst enemy.

I used to watch this show when I was a toddler through a set of old DvD's from the 90's, and its just remained a consistent part of my earliest memories of my childhood, and while it was full of adventure, I mainly remember just watching it due to how mundane it all seemed. There's honestly not much to it, I just wanted to see a bunch of trains do their jobs and go about their lives too.

There are other character's and series's that have shaped my tastes, and just who I am as a whole, but I just wanted to list a few for this small post because we'd be here for hours if I went over everything.

Merry Christmas! Consider this an Ask Meme! Reblog with your responses.