#I loved the Poseidon Gets Humbled Saga

[rickyisntwatching]

"DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT RUTHLESSNESS IS MERCY UPON OUR—"

"ALRIGHT! ... please ..."

[likorys-shimenawa]

I listened to the songs again and THE THEME BREAKS SO BADLY with Poseidon. T.T

Odysseu is consistently suffering when he tries to stand among gods while keeping his human morals and small scale responsibilities [killing infant, sparing Cyclops].

It's only when he humbles himself with Circe, whom he can't defeat in fight without actual gods tepping in, that he wins!

He win by being human and missing his wife, just like he later 'wins' with Hera by being faithful to her! It's the human parts that save him!

After underworld he goes into extreme [not ruthless with his nemies like a god should be, but nedlessly cruel and vicious like humans are], again acting like he's equal to gods [deciging who lives and who dies for Scylla] and he SUFFERS for it [having to chose who lives and dies under Zeus' punishment].

But Athena again, wins Hera over because Ody is human and loves his wife so much he would reject godesses! He is still able to love Calypso and see her loneliness like a fellow human would!

And then he goes right back to being egotistical by putting himself up against a god and then he's nedlessly cruel like he is with the sirens!

And given the last saga is him murdering the suitors and getting back with Penelope, there is just no place for him to REPEAT his development arc all over again.

That's the problem with the song for me at least - it's not that he beats a god or it's too anime/video game like. It's that it goes against all the development and themes of previous 30 songs.

I have a lot of thoughts on the Vengeance saga... I’m going to write a much longer post in detail later.

The funny thing is, before the livestream started, I said that Odysseus better not get a deus ex machina out of nowhere and proceed to beat the crap out of Poseidon and win. And then… that’s exactly what happened. XD

[wolfnight2012]

I know Jorge is being (mostly) faithful to the Odyssey even as he interweaves his own themes/motifs; EPIC is a retelling but not a reimagining

YET

I'm loving his themes so much that I sometimes wish he could/would take it further

Establishing the guilt of decade of war, the "actions [that] will haunt [his] days" & the "endless pain" starting EPIC with Odysseus teetering on that edge, and contrasting the ultimatum of "Just a Man" with "Open Arms" is sooooo Interesting!

And I think those themes are handled wonderfully given the constraints of the pre-existing plot. But wouldn't you like them to go futher?

"Open Arms" is dropped by the Underworld saga & it seems like Act 2 will be all about "Ruthlessness is mercy"

But...open arms WORKED

"You can show a person that you trust them, when you stop and lower your guard"

Odysseus bares his heart to Circe "My wife awaits for me, she is my everything" And. It. Works!

Circe lets his men go. She goes a step further and helps them both evade Poseidon AND speak to a dead prophet for help.

She's been burned before, & she has loved ones she'll do anything for, yet, Circe rewards Odysseus with compassion.

"Maybe showing one act of kindness, leads to kinder souls down the road"

Like, kindness IS brave.

Odysseus is given an alternative to the heavy guilt he carries in song #4 "Greet the world with open arms"

When Polites dies it seems he decides to fake it till he makes it (in honor of Polites?? To carry on his spirit?? Because the losses in the cyclops fight broke the fragile hold he's been clinging to since "Just a Man" & he's hoping if he follows Polites advice he will be able to "relax"??) I think it's up to interpretation, but we are told he's being weird about it. (he's not being genuine with it fyi)

An "open arms" approach also works with Aeolus, does it not?

Odysseus trusts Aeolus to not simply strike him down for the audacity. He gives his plight & humbly asks for help and he receives it!

Sure, there's a bit of trickery there (making the bag enticing/making Odysseus paranoid) BUT he could have won the game, it wasn't rigged to fail. Had he managed to keep the faith of his crew/hidden the bag/stayed awake, he would have made it home.

There's no appeasing Poseidon, but open arms works for Circe as well.

Not counting Athena (because both were just being catty there) that's 2/3 times that open arms WORKS

With the additional 1v1 of Circe explicitly echoing Polites' belief system, and Poseidon echoing Athena's last instructions

Then we get to ACT 2 and Odysseus has been told the man who gets home is "no longer you" & that his "palace [is] covered in red " & his wife is with a "man with a trail of bodies" and he's even MORE desperate to get home and he seemingly accepts (or at least sings very explicitly about) becoming a monster.

In the 5 songs of the Thunder Saga, Odysseus is ruthless 4 times

Cutting off the sirens' tails

Feeding this men to Scylla

Trying to kill(?) Eurylochus

Giving his crew up to Zeus' wrath

But only 1 of these works out for him.

We don't know what would have happened if he'd spared the sirens. They could have turned on him once they'd been freed, they could have gotten revenge later. They could have never been seen again. Or they could have repaid his kindness ("kindness is brave/"maybe showing one act of kindness, leads to kinder souls down the road") yakno the antithesis of "ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves"

We can't say he 100% for certain spared himself future grief because we can't know. He's killed them & that's the end of it.

In Scylla his ruthless act has 2 parts: not telling the crew about Scylla & sacrificing 6 men to ensure he survives

He "knows what it takes to survive" & succeeds in it. He makes it through Scylla's lair alive/gets one step closer to Penelope.

He also lands himself in a mutinty because of his deceit.

In Mutiny, he does not "lead from the heart". He offers zero explanations/apologies & is not understanding/sympathetic to Eurylochus' turmoil at all.

Instead, he ruthlessly tries to severely wound/kill Eurylochus

Which leads the rest of the crew to join the mutiny & stab him/incapacitate him

In the 2nd half of mutiny, because he is incapacitated & because his men have lost faith in him, Odysseus is unable to stop them from killing the sacred/ immortal cow

Would the men have given in to their hunger if they still had hope? There's a BIG decrease in moral from Different Beasts to the 2nd half of Mutiny, one that cant be attributed to the 6 deaths alone because they've already experienced big losses like this one/gone through a bunch of horrors together.

This is strictly because of Odysseus' betrayal/losing their faith in him.

So, Odysseus' actions lead both to his inability to talk his defeated/apathetic crew off their metaphorical ledge and (arguably) leads his men ONTO that ledge in the first place by destroying their hope/faith & this leads to Thunder Bringer

Thunder Bringer is a tricky one because being ruthless DOES save Odysseus, he gets to live by sacrificing his crew, BUT

Is it mercy?

Sure, we know how this story ends, (Odysseus will get what he wants) but that's literally in songs 39/40.

Odysseus' immediate reward is Ogygia. He survives to be trapped for 7 years.

Was his ruthlessness mercy upon himself? (Seriously, i can't decide if this counts or not) [edit: I think we have our answer, folks]

The (tentative) scoreboard as of song 25 is:

Ruthless is mercy: 4 (Siege of Troy, kill an infant, kill Polyphemus, sacrifice your men to Zeus (?) )

Open Arms: 2 (Aeolus, Circe)

Inconclusive: 3 (lotus eaters, killing the sirens, sacrificing your men to Scylla)

Ruthlessness is NOT mercy: 3 (Luck Runs Out, dealing with the windbag, Mutiny)

But even then, was ruthlessness the only option for Polyphemus?

Like, the sacking of Troy is its own thing. Kill or be killed/war. The infant is a prophecy & prophecies always come true.

But letting Polyphemus live isn't what screwed Odysseus over. It was giving his name. If Odysseus listens to Athena, he loses even MORE men in another fight against Polyphemus.

Or he could have simply left without revealing his name, occupation & home address. Either action would have kept his crew safe.

We don't know if the lotus eaters meant any harm. If killing the sirens actively prevented retaliation. What might have happened if Odysseus ran the plan by the crew/explained the dangers of Scylla (hence results being inconclusive)

But in Luck Runs Out, though Odysseus talks a big game about following Polites' example (and he DOES, with Aeolus) he is not leading with the heart when it comes to Eurylochus & the crew. He dismisses Eurylochus' concerns, brushes him off. Gives an imitation of sympathy/connection to try & soften Eurylochus up "Where is this coming from, my friend?" But when Eurylochus doesn't immediately give in/fall back in line, Odysseus immediately replies in a harsher tone/with accusation "Suddenly you doubt that I could figure this out?"

When the crew echo Eurylochus' doubts, Odysseus turns the charm on them, remember how many times we've succeeded? Remember how far I've gotten you?? (very gaslight/girlboss of him)

Then he gets Eurylochus away from other eyes/ears and drops the mask, telling him to shut up & get in line.

It's not full-on ruthless (he doesnt make an example of him/punish him/make him disappear)

But its not "lead from the heart" either. He could have tried to have an actual discussion with Eurylochus/listened to his concerns & addressed them.

If Eurylochus had felt listened to/Odysseus had worked to regain his trust/confidence, would Eurylochus have opened the windbag?

This cant be the first time (in 10 yrs of war) that Odysseus has come up with some clever/out-there plan that none of his men could see the logic of (until it got results)

Had Odysseus worked with his crew to ease their doubts/rebuilt their faith in him & his ability to seemingly pull a win out of his ass, they'd probably have left the bag alone & waited to see how Odysseus' latest scheme resolved itself.

Odysseus "doesn't get the job done" but it IS moreso because he "caves to guilt" than because he is truly following Polites' advice.

He doesn't open up. He doesn't relax. He doesn't trust, not even his second in command (!!!) He might be "far too nice" but he is not kind

Even the mutiny itself might have been salvageable; Eurylochus starts that song by demanding an explanation & Odysseus refuses to engage with him at all

So Eurylochus turns to violence to protect the few men he has left.

Anyways, all this to say, wouldn't it be great if we could get some kind of closure for that "Open Arms" theme?

(edit: with the release of the Wisdom Saga, I now have a post going more into depth on why "Open Arms" needs to find closure in the narrative here)

I continue to believe pride & hubris are Odysseus fatal flaws, not mercy.

I think the whole fandom's made fun of his non-apology to Poseidon, but there's also his demand for Polyphemus to remember him (I am neither man not mythical/I am your darkest moment), his dismissal of Eurylochus' concerns during storm, their conflict in LRO, his cockiness when first approaching Circe "you better cower now & flee/I must be a god like you"

It's even a huge part of Thunder Bringer, Zeus takes the time to shine a light on Odysseus' pride, despite the fact that he's here for the cows.

I do think Odysseus needs to kill the suitors. I think (from what little i know of it) song 40 is going to be lovely

BUT, i wish all those themes established in "Open Arms" had some kind of closure, because Odysseus only really embodies them ONCE "There Are Other Ways" and it isn't planned (because he's truly leading with the heart, it came naturally to him)

What IF he had spared the sirens & it came back in some way when he's floating on his tiny raft?

What if Telemachus demonstrated something similar to Polites' teachings & Odysseus (and the audience) understood it was too late for Odysseus, but Telemachus wasn't doomed to committing the same mistakes/inducing the same kinds of miseries on himself?

What If "Get in the Water" could go the way of "There are Other Ways"

(I know we all largely agree Poseidon was always gotta kill Odysseus/his crew regardless but what if)

What if in the hopelessness of "Get in the Water" Odysseus finally humbled himself & offered Poseidon a genuine apology, connecting with him from one father to the next, sympathizing with the pain Poseidon must have felt at hearing "all [Polyphemus'] cries"

And everything just ended??

Maybe even with the same heavy put-upon sigh that Circe had "Ugh, Poseidon, eh?"/ "Ugh, fine, go home then"

And it doesnt fix anything. 600 men are still dead. Odysseus still has to take back his palace. He will still greet his wife as a man with a trail of bodies.

But also, we are reminded that, despite how it ends, kindness is brave.

I know this isn't canon but could you imagine if...

Poseidon: Maybe I was a little too hard on that Odysseus fellow. I mean he did spare my son's life and only did what he had to in order to escape.

Poseidon: I think I'll let him get home. Just gonna go pay a visit to my Siren daughters first...

Poseidon: WHAT THE FU-!