#I just happen to be a Jon apologist as well (sorry)

[hearts-a-heavy-burden]

Cracking up at the First Test graphic novel for making Jon a pretty average white guy, so my expectations were just eh that’s how the adults are and then Numair/Daine show up as the two hottest people on the planet for the four pages we get to see them.

[letbarbieshavedragons]

What's up with the Rheagar hate in general? I never got that. Rhaegar seems to be hated across the fandoms?! Hats off for accomplished THAT Grrm, never have seen something like that😂. But no seriously, why? Like sure, prophecy-driven, reckless running of with a pregnant teenager, leaving his wife&children, starting a war etc... its shit, but i have seen way worse. WE ALL HAVE, i mean look at Tywin, Caster, the Mountain, Euron (and thats are only the fuckers in the same story!!)

And that while the worst villians ever have apologists, because they have a sad backstory?! Wouldn't Rhaegar fit in perfectly in that? Him being emo, beautiful, loner, having a abusive father, making one mistake after anothery even tho he should have known better etc. Don't get me wrong, i feel indifference towards him, like to ALL pre-asoiaf. Since i dont get how you can stan or hate a 'character' where we only have like 5 lines about?! But how?

I’m assuming these are the same asks lol, since they seem to flow together, but sorry if it’s a coincidence and I just happened to get three asks about Rhaegar in a row lol

Also sorry in advance for the long reply, this topic has always made me curious as well lol

Anyhoo, I agree. it definitely surprised me as well how strongly some people feel about Rhaegar. and I say that as someone who doesnt really like Rhaegar all that much either . Tho, I’m in the same boat. I can’t say I hate him, when I really don’t know/haven’t seen enough of him for me to form any strong emotional connection to him. The show pretty much glossed over him so no insights there and the books still have a lot of explaining to do on that front. Although, That being said, I don’t really expect my opinion of him will improve if as the books continue

From what I’ve seen tho there are a lot of reason why people dislike him (I’ve got a list myself), but like you said in the grand scheme of asoiaf, he’s really not that bad. So why is there more anti Rhaegar discourse than anti-the Mountain (who is unquestionably worse) or less love for Rhaegar then Cersei (who has done also done worse)

My best guess is (and this is just my personal speculation), it has a lot in common with the reason people got so mad at Sansa in s8 (myself included) when she too really didn’t do anything that bad by GoT standards. In fact, it’s funny, you see a lot of people compare her to Cersei or Littlefinger in a derogatory light but those same people will actually like Cersei/Littlefinger. (I say those people when I maysled do this lol) Which I think, reveals it perfectly. Its about perception. It’s about how everyone else in the show reacts and how we the audience are supposed to “view” it.

People liked Cersei when she did dubious shit bc there was recognition that it was wrong. From other the characters, the narrative and the fans. Cersei did villainous shit and was a villain for it. Same with Joeffrey, the mountain, Littlefinger etc... Sansa on the other hand did villainous shit and... was rewarded for it? Got QiTN? Like it felt like we were supposed to view her coronation like Robb’s or Jon’s when it was really more like Cersei’s. And I know that pissed me off. If your going to have a good guy act like the villain, talk like the villain and dress like the villain then you need to recognize they aren’t a good guy anymore (sorry small tangent)

And I think Rhaegar falls into a somewhat similar situation. His reputation is surprising positive considering all the shit he’s pulled and I think that frustrates a lot of people. Especially when they hear people like Ser Barristan and Daenerys speak highly of him. It can certainly feel like his faults get glossed over for the image of the perfectly chivalrous prince, when just on the little we know, that can’t be right. And then the show glamorizing it probably just frustrates people even more.

And I would argue that not all the fans hate Rhaegar, I just think his haters tend to be surprisingly vocal about it. Like I know a lot of casual fans that love him bc they never bothered/cared to actually look closely at his behavior and just see a tragic “forbidden love” story. And then some that just don’t care or view him like you said as a sad tragic emo boy that needs love. But all that really does I think it as fuel to the discourse fire bc now not only do the characters not realize how dubious he was, but a good chunk of fans don’t know or don’t care either which can feel like he gets away with literally everythubg and can be a hero so long as he keeps the dashing prince vibes going.

Although I will say I think the narrative does at least recognize the truth, and as the series continue I think we’ll see a perspective shift as we’ll, but who knows when that will be.

Plus there’s the fact that despite being dead, Rhaegar still has so much impact on the story. And it’s pretty easy to hold the repercussions of his actions against him when you don’t actually get to understand him or see what he’s like. It’s hard to empathize with a character you never get to meet.

But Like I said, that’s just my conjecture. I’m in the same boat. I think Rhaegar’s kind of a dick but 🤷‍♀️ it’s GoT, who ain’t?

[tompatel95]

Daenerys, First of her Name.

It’s been a few months since that ending to Game of Thrones. Various thought pieces have been written, reviews analysing the show’s myriad parts and critiquing its execution. As with many fans, I felt a lot of emotions during the finale, none of them good. I’ve waited all this time to write this, to allow myself to simmer down. But, to be honest, I’m still raging – how could they do Daenerys dirty like that? Firstly, I acknowledge my status as a Dany stan. She has to be one of my all-time favourite characters and I resonate with her intensely – I felt actual grief at her death. Before anyone reading this begins to roll their eyes and mutter “overreaction,” Daenerys has helped me through the years. By identifying with her and her journey, I was able to get through bullying and mental health struggles. If anything, her travails provided a welcome respite from my struggles, privileged as they may be. However, I don’t believe I’m being biased here. So, let’s break it down. Much has been made by the cast that women are just as capable of being evil as men and Daenerys’ storyline proves that. Fair point, but this has been established since season 1 with Cersei. Cersei Lannister has been labelled as one of the greatest villains of all time, a nuanced combination of an overprivileged, entitled individual who still is underestimated on account of her gender. Indeed, Lena Headley’s portrayal has revealed that she is one of the most talented actresses of her generation. However, let’s delve into this myth of the ‘better sex.’ Women have been associated with evil since the very beginning. Circe, Medea, Lady Macbeth, the White Witch – the concept of evil women is embedded into our storytelling culture. Furthermore, these damsels-in-distress are painted as the exception – most women are unpleasant besides these princesses. Even within medieval Europe, the Virgin Mary was depicted as an impossible ideal rather than being exemplary of her gender. 

The most recent female villain who rocked our perceptions has to be Amy Dunne from Gone Girl. I feel Amy is what the writers were aiming for with Dany’s storyline, falling awfully short. What made Gone Girl so revolutionary isn’t Amy’s sociopathic nature, it’s that she got away with it. Amy outmanoeuvred her husband, the press, the police, all these smart, intelligent people. She used her white privilege as a weapon and got everything she desired – attention, wealth, a devoted husband, a child. There’s no karma, no repercussions; she wins. Saying that Dany’s storyline proves women can be evil just doesn’t hold up – especially given the kingdom goes to a man. Secondly, let’s tackle this idea or foreshadowing. It’s an important point to make – foreshadowing does not equal plot development. People have been muttering about the Mad Queen for years, yet a lot of this is hypocritical. Before she burns Kings Landing, Dany hasn’t done anything more atrocious than anybody else. Much has been made about her reaction/treatment of her brother and the slave masters. To those people I say, are we watching the same show? Viserys is abusive, violent and just as vicious as Joffrey. He had been tormenting Dany for her whole life – she stuck by him because where else would she go. However, once she marries Khal Drogo, once she begins to create her own family and comes into her own, why would she put up with his tirades? Why would she mourn him – this is the man would allow Khal Drogo’s entire khalasar and their horse rape her to get the Iron Throne, the man who threatened her unborn child. To those who now point to the crucifixion of the slave masters, well, they’re slave masters. I’m sorry, but I find this point so infuriating because they’re slave masters! You wouldn’t mourn jihadists dying, nor Nazis, yet somehow slave masters are legitimate individuals who deserve respect. Wow. And those who point out that Dany even killed those masters who were working towards abolition – the smallness of this plot point highlights how relevant the writers thought it was. Even accounting for that, it highlights Dany as rash, not mad. The Tarlys. Where to start with the Tarlys? I guess with one of the first scenes of season 1, where Ned Stark executes a member of the Night’s Watch, whose begging for his life. Or let’s go to Jon’s execution of Janos Slynt, who also begs for his life. Both these men ignore their victims’ pleas and kills them anyway, yet they’re still heralded as honourable men. Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Theon; all have committed acts far worse than Dany’s execution of the Tarlys, yet Dany’s the bad guy. Both Randyll and Dickon Tarly go willingly to their deaths – all they had to do is bend the knee. Let’s not forget the xenophobic spiel Randyll spews before he dies as well. 

Speaking of racism, Dany is the sole character who actually doesn’t care about it. She is a white saviour, but that’s one of the tropes George RR Martin deconstructs. Ned’s death means the good guys don’t allows win, Robb’s death destroys the revenge narrative and Dany’s conquests highlights how, despite good intentions and the might of your army, if you don’t know the people you’re going to rule, you’ll struggle. Call me an apologist if you’d like, but Dany’s views on race and birth is refreshingly progressive. This is not echoed with the other characters. The northerners react with hostility towards Missandei and Grey Worm, and Sansa later says that Dany and her followers aren’t from the North – implying they shouldn’t be as loyal to them. Are we meant to care at all about what happens to the North now? How am I, a POC, meant to feel about this? I want any answer because all I can see the show trying to make me care about racists. Even Jon and Tyrion display classism – Jon dislikes his sworn brothers at the beginning and Tyrion mocks an attempt at a democracy. Daenerys promotes a former slave to leader of her armies. She comforts dying slaves as they hang, crucified and in her attacks on the slave cities, orders her armies not to harm any women or child. She removes rape from the Dothraki and Ironborn cultures and is devoted to equality. She would’ve revolutionised Westeros, bringing it under a centralised government and, due to her dragons, dealt with local warlords quickly and effectively. Indeed, an interesting angle would have been, yes, Dany’s a tyrant, but her rule was necessary for Westeros’ progression. Russia wouldn’t be the power it is today without Peter the Great, and he dragged Russia into modernity on the backs and bones of serfs. Whilst his actions are deplorable, it is undeniable that Russia wouldn’t be the superpower it is without him. So, even if the writers wanted to go down the Mad Queen route, this would’ve been a far more innovative angle rather than Dany throwing a temper tantrum. To conclude, I’m still angry. Dany’s treatment has ruined the show for me, especially given her treatment by fellow characters and the writers. She had no family but made something of herself whilst remaining true to herself. Long may she reign!