#I don't speak japanese I just find honorifics fascinating

[waitineedaname]

Realized you might be a good person to ask for input about these two guys from a show I like (if it's not too much trouble). It's a western show but these characters are Japanese and they're both friends and coworkers. One is the boss's son and has a somewhat more "childish" personality, and typically addresses his friend with the "-kun" honorific, while his friend doesn't use honorifics for the first guy. What if anything would you say this indicates about their friendship?

oh hm!!! I mean, I can't really say much without knowing the characters myself. I should probably give the caveat that I don't speak Japanese lol I just hyperfixated on honorifics for a bit because that's just how my brain works. I'd say the one using "-kun" is using it with some affection! "-kun" is used between boys/young men who are similar ages, and also used by adults for boys/men younger than them. It could potentially be used in a rude way depending on the dynamic, but I'm assuming these two characters are the same age, and since you said he's got a kind of childish personality, it seems to me that he's probably using it in a friendly way, like "we're buddies!! we're bros!!"

as for the other character, I guess it would really depend on how he's using his name and how he refers to other people! It's a lot harder to draw conclusions on the absence of something since I don't know the character and context lol just based on the vibes you've given from this ask, I'd assume his lack of honorifics is just. neutral? it's not rude but it's not overly familiar but it's not particularly respectful either. it's just his name!

[samuraionyourmom]

Been watching BSD with Japanese audio recently. More specifically, Wan and some of the audio dramas (highly recommend checking these out! This is the playlist I watched.) I find the difference between the way Chuuya and Dazai speak very interesting to me. This may be some base level observations to a native Japanese speaker, but I'd thought I'd share what I noticed. I'm not an expert by any means, so correct me if you see any mistakes!

So, first of all, Chuuya. He has a very masculine and vulgar way of speaking. He refers to himself as "Ore" (俺), which is typically used among teenage boys and is considered masculine and informal. Macho man kind of stuff. On top of that, he rolls his r's a lot, which is also considered very masculine and improper, similar to how a delinquent would talk. I don't necessarily think Chuuya is being overtly manly to the point of toxic masculinity, more so just him trying to be cool and assertive while he was with the Sheep, and then it just kinda stuck. You have to keep in mind that he grew up on the streets, and as the Sheep's leader and protector, it was his job to come across as powerful to keep them safe, so he may have spoke like that to try and intimidate their enemies. Overall, Chuuya's speech is very brash, aggressive, and masculine.

Dazai, on the other hand, is quite formal when he speaks. He refers to himself as "Watashi" (わたし) which is used in formal situations and could be considered slightly feminine. There is something to be said about gender here and how Dazai might identify, but that's another topic for another time. For now, I'm focusing on what this tells us about Dazai's personality, not his gender identity (though I am a huge fan of gender-fuckery Dazai). It's a more passive way of referring to oneself, like Dazai is taking a backseat in the conversation and wanting to seem harmless. Maybe a way of subtly manipulating the situation, maybe he simply doesn't want to exist or be perceived in this world, maybe a bit of both.

Another interesting thing is the way they refer to each other. Chuuya often calls Dazai "Temee" (手前) which is a very vulgar way of saying "you." It could equate to calling someone "bastard." Very, very rude, but that makes sense because Chuuya does NOT like Dazai. He also uses this on other people when they're being idiots, (ahem, Kajii), but it's usually reserved for Dazai. You would definitely never hear him use it for Kouyou, that's for sure. (Whom he calls Ane-san, btw! It's a formal way of saying "big sister," but it's also a common way of referring to a woman of power/ female superior in the mafia).

With Dazai, it's a little more complicated. In Japan, it's considered rude to refer to some as "you" so directly, similar to how it's considered rude to point at someone. So, usually, people will refer to someone as their name with some kind of honorific (-kun or -san, for some examples) that matches their status or by a title. Dazai does this with Kunikida by calling him "Kunikida-kun" or with Fukuzawa by calling him "Shachou" (meaning president in this context).

But with Chuuya, it's simply "Chuuya." Not "Chuuya-san" or even "Chuuya-kun." ("Chuuya-kun" happens a couple times, I believe, but it's rare). Dazai is purposely choosing to leave out any honorific here just to be disrespectful. It's not vulgar by any means like Chuuya's "Temee." Dazai isn't a very vulgar person, as seen by the fact he rarely swears, but he is going out of his way to choose the least polite option for the formal type of speech that he uses. He won't swear at Chuuya, but he will imply that he is somehow not worthy of having an honorific attached to his name when Dazai is speaking to him.

I just thought this was fascinating. Even their way of referring to themselves or others tells you a lot about their personalities. Chuuya isn't afraid to speak his mind, even if it's considered improper or aggressive, and it even gives a nod towards his upbringing on the streets. Dazai, on the other hand, is very purposeful with his language, and every word he uses has meaning. But he also can't resist being a little shit when it comes to Chuuya, doing whatever he can to tease him.

Again, I'm not fluent in Japanese in any way, so if a person who knows a little more about this sees something wrong with what I said, feel free to let me know! Or even add your own observations! I'd love to chat about this.

[aihoshiino]

The thing about me is that I am a bit of a freak when it comes to the way characters refer to each other, especially when it’s my blorbos. So I have basically a mental chart of how ai calls others and how others call her.

I find it fascinating that in akane’s ai performance, she changes how she addresses others. Going from ‘aqua-kun’ to just ‘aqua’ and ‘yuki-chan’ to ‘yuki’. (Side note: when I was double checking the og jp text, I was surprised by how much aikane borrowed from yuki.)

Professor of ai, do you think this aspect of aikane is accurate to the real ai? What do you make of aikane in general?

If I remember correctly, ai is yobisute with a couple of people, aqua and ruby(obviously), watanabe and takamine in 45510, we never see ai call hikaru by name (a fact I am very normal about) but in 15YL they are yobisute with each other.

I think Aikane is pretty interesting as like... an in-universe reflection of what Ai's 'public' self was understood to be. On the one hand, the fact that Akane was able to get such a good read on Ai just through examining publicly available information is an early reflection/indication of the fact that 'Ai of B-Komachi' really isn't that different from the supposed "real" Ai and that she contains enough of Ai's authentic self for Akane to replicate it, at least in part.

On the other hand, she is ultimately only a recreation of Ai's public self, and whatever the manga might try and tell us... Akane doesn't really know who Ai is. She knows things about Ai, but that doesn't mean she understands her as a person. I think Akane, for better or worse, kind of just sees Ai like any other role she plays - a fictional character for her to come up with fun headcanons about so she can playact as her better as opposed to a real human being.

This is something season 2 of the anime supports with some interesting imagery, however accidentally;

Not only is Akane's image of Ai incomplete, but it's an image of Ai of B-Komachi, Ai's overly polished public self - and she's pictured alongside Sayahime, an entirely unreal fictional character. In Akane's mind, these two 'roles' are the same in form and weight.

I do definitely agree that Aikane borrows a LOT from Yuki, though! That was something that always seemed quite implicit to me, so I was always surprised that other people never really talk about it. Aikane is particularly forward and flirtatious and pushy in a way that even Ai of B-Komachi is not, but very much does reflect the version of herself that Yuki was playing on the show. And given that Aikane is born out of (among other things, obvs) Akane's sense of rivalry with Yuki and admiration of her, I think that makes a lot of sense.

(Yuki is also one of those Secretly Ai characters we see pop up in the first half of the manga, imo, which drives this home even further.)

Because of this, I think the terms of address thing is something Akane cribbed from Yuki rather than Ai - past a certain point (or perhaps when she's in Work Mode), Yuki calls Akane by her first name with no honorifics. I... don't remember if she does it for anybody else, off the top of my head? But at the very least, that's how she speaks to Akane.

ACTUALLY: Quick addendum to this while it's in my queue, but I suddenly remembered these two clearly paralleled lines:

The TL obscures this a teeny bit, but these lines are even more obviously and deliberately mirrored in Japanese:

「茜わ私のこと、嫌い？」 Akane wa watashi no koto kirai? 「ゆきわこう言う私、嫌い?」 Yuki wa kouiu watashi kirai?

The anime takes this a step further and has Aikane use the exact same inflection and even deliberate pacing of her speaking when she delivers this line. So definitely an indication to me that Aikane borrows just as much from Yuki as she does from the real Ai.

Back to the real Ai herself tho, this isn't really reflective of her own speech patterns. It can be easy to miss because the setup of the series is such that the Venn diagram of "characters Ai addresses by name" and "characters Ai addresses without honorifics" is almost a single circle lol but she's pretty polite with her honorifics usage and doesn't really jump to yobisute very fast, at least not with people's real names - we can infer that all the gen 1 B-Komachi girls only ever addressed each other by their stage names, for example, so Ai leaving off their honorifics can be understood as her addressing them by title instead, in the same way she calls Ichigo "President" and Gorou "Sensei".

Another thing that differentiates Ai from Aikane is that Aikane almost seems to go out of her way to use people's names, probably as a way of coming off as more forward and confident. By contrast, Ai herself does the opposite - Kyun mentions in POV B (i gotta start getting used to not calling it viewpoint b) that Ai tends to avoid using people's names because she often gets them wrong when she does (some combo of autism faceblindness & her low literacy meaning she struggles to correctly read name kanji probably) and doesn't want to get in trouble.

All this combined makes me feel pretty sure that Aikane is just a portrayal of the ideal of Ai in all senses of the word. Akane assembles her from all the prettiest, shiniest parts of Ai and Yuki and plays her as an effortlessly perfect, flirtatious and confident girl... which we all know the real Ai very much was not.

[canmom]

to beat on old drum, why should translation always be to a 'default'/'neutral', relatively formal version of a language? well you could make arguments from accessibility, injecting things that 'aren't there in the original' (or 'writing fanfic' as an angry nyaa commenter might put it), or losing nuances from the source.

but tranlsation is never going to be able to capture every nuance of the source, it's always a tradeoff. you can try to sound idiomatic in the target language, you can risk sounding plain or go for more approximate but lively expressions, or conversely you can go for something that doesn't sound like something a native speaker would write but develops a particular 'work in translation' cadence ("it can't be helped") which is worthwhile in its own right. you can even laboriously explain every missing nuance. there's no need to be dogmatic either - you can adopt a blend of strategies depending on what you think is most important.

the idea of a single 'correct' translation is an illusion. a translation is a new work designed to communicate as much as it can about the original. and if you don't have enough facility in the original language to follow along, the next-best thing is to have multiple translations that capture different facets according to what's picked up by different translators. and if you do know enough of the source language to pick up on an especially creative translation, that's a delightful thing.

this seems to be well understood in like, classics or philosophy, where it's reasonably common to produce new translations of a work. in translating modern media like anime... less so. I feel like it's a huge shame that original fansubs are made much less often today, and that so many arguments about translation seem to assume there must be one strict orthodoxy about the right way to translate. broadly speaking that orthodoxy has shifted - today the handful of still-active fansub groups like Good Job Media look with derision at the 't/n: keikaku means plan' past, and heavily prefer idiomatic translations.

is it ever 'necessary' to include honorifics when translating Japanese? probably not, you can probably find circumlocutions when they matter (e.g. have the characters argue about using titles). is that the 'best' way to translate? depends on your audience and what you want to communicate to them.

for example, in English, there's not really a 'thing you routinely say you routinely say before eating' as there is in many other languages. if we do say something before eating together, we'd probably use a loanword like bon appetit, but that would be rare and probably come across as a bit pretentious. in Japanese by contrast, people say いた���きます itadakimasu as a standard ritual before-eating phrase. translators come up with all sorts of substitutions to try and find a substitute that sounds natural in English, potentially breaking the 'translate line by line' convention to insert something from elsewhere in the scene in the subtitle for itadakimasu.

and like, my feeling (from the stance of 'Japanese learner who watches a lot of anime') would be that if I knew most of my viewers would know at least that little bit of Japanese (and if they're downloading it from a fansubbing site, they probably do), I would just leave it untranslated. but leaving はい untranslated as in the above meme would be silly, because a good translation is simple and obvious (though 'yes' is not always a correct translation for はい!). however, I appreciate that there are various takes on this. it's fun to see the different ways people will translate いただきます! it becomes like a game. (the scene in Your Name where a bodyswapped character has to figure out the right personal pronoun is another fun one.)

so in this frame, I think translation targeting specific accents and dialects is really cool, because it can draw out all sorts of fascinating parallels. for example, the sentence ending particle ね is kind of like ', right?' - indicating that you think the speaker already knows what you're saying and you're looking for agreement/confirmation. it's a very common particle in Japanese, and it has a bit of a feminine connotation. how does that compare to the british slang 'innit'? or indeed the Singaporean 'lah'? you'd probably figure out a bunch about Japanese, British English and Singlish by thinking through when it would make sense to translate ね as 'innit', and likewise for 'lah'!

[mikrrokosmos]

Hi! This is going to sound kind of random, but I am writing a paper about the translation of Korean honorifics in subtitles, and I just saw your post from like a year ago mentioning how "hyung" is translated as "bro" in subtitles. So first off THANK YOU because I have been looking for a good example of that for a while now and I've finally found one thanks to you. Secondly, is there any more you can tell me about how "hyung" is translated as "bro" in "Bloodhounds" (or any other drama)? And, just to clarify, are the characters in "Bloodhounds" related or not related?

Anyway, thanks again, and sorry for the long ask about a show you probably haven't watched in a year.

Hi! Of course I don’t mind talking about it! I’m actually super excited that you asked me about this, as I love linguistics and translations and always find it a fascinating topic.

I feel like I should make a disclaimer that I am not Korean and don’t speak Korean, so everything I know about the language and culture is just from what I’ve observed from watching kdramas and listening to kpop for years. I am open to correction if I get something wrong, and I would suggest checking out the blog @consigliere-vincenzo, as I believe she is/knows Korean and provides translations for dramas! (She’s also just, a really cool blog <3)

(Also, since I don’t know the Hangul alphabet, I will be using the romanized spelling for the translations. Romanized spellings can also differ, and there's no 'correct' spelling for each word!)

Korean, like many other languages like Dutch and Japanese, is a language structured around respect to those around you, largely dependant on age, and is shown with the usage of honorifics. Honorifics like agasshi (refers to a young woman, though you're unsure of her age) and ajusshi (in reference to an older man, usually middle-aged; and ajumma, which is the female equivalent) all showcase respect; and to not use any honorific would come across as rude. (In formal language, suffixes such as -ssi and -nim are used, as well as different words all together, but I won't be touching on those since I don't speak Korean and they are harder to pinpoint!)

Honorifics like oppa, unni, and hyung are a bit different, since they're more affectionate in nature. Oppa is mostly by a woman for their older brother, but can also be used for a boyfriend. Unni would be what a woman would call her older sister, or a sister-like figure/friend. Hyung would be the male equivalent of this; what a man would call his older brother, a close male friend.

To answer your question, the main duo in Bloodhounds (Gunwoo and Woojin) are not related by blood!

In the scene where they are talking in a restaurant and find out each others ages (Netflix won't let me screenshot, but starts approx. 22:10 in ep1, and this is the only gifset I can find) is probably the best scene to illustrate the use of hyung in their dynamic. Before this, we can assume that the characters think they are the same age (in Korea, it is normal for two people who are born in the same year to become friends, since no honorifics based upon age are needed, so a sense of familiarity is immediate). When Gunwoo finds out that Woojin is in fact two years older than him, he apologizes (for not using formal language). Woojin then finds out that Gunwoo's role in the military (when they each did their service, as every able-bodied Korean male is required by law to do) was a higher station than his, he also uses formal language, calling him hyung-nim (if I am hearing correctly, since Netflix is HORRENDOUS for translating honorifics properly). Gunwoo wishes to use 'casual' tone with Woojin and just call him hyung, but Woojin's also using honorifics creates a humorous dynamic, since older men are not required to use such honorifics with those younger than them. This conversation is a great showcase of their characters, and how their different personalities play into how they act around each other (Gunwoo's more reserved and polite persona, and Woojin's more loose and free-willed personality).

It is near impossible to understand this underhanded joke with just the subtitles, as so much gets lost in translation, especially since English is not an honorific-centred language. Unni *does* technically directly translate to 'sister,' and hyung to 'brother,' but it comes across as janky sometimes, since English-speaking people don't casually call each other that (you know that complaint about how it's bad for siblings in books/movies to be like 'hey sis'/'hey bro' since no one talks like that? Yeah.) Shortening the term to 'bro' doesn't really help matters, since I haven't heard anyone use the word 'bro' unironically . . . ever? So what is originally a natural and affectionate word and can carry great meaning depending on context (like if a character was dying, and used hyung in his last moments when he has never referred to a character like that before) easily becomes cheapened with translation. They can also try to subsitute some honorifics with 'sir' (like they do in Bloodhounds), but it kinda carries the same effect.

The usage of the term hyung, or any honorific, can be found in any kdrama ever. A great example I can think of is in The Eighth Sense, which is a BL (BoysLove, which is just a genre of Asian dramas that are queer love stories).

In a scene of The Eighth Sense (at 34:47 in ep2 on Rakuten Viki) Jihyun accidentally calls Jaewon hyung, and not sunbaenim, as he was told to do. Since Jaewon is Jihyun's elder in the club they are both in, it would be more appropriate to be called sunbaenim, which is an honorific for those in an academic or work setting. Using hyung is more intimate, and insinuates a stronger bond of closeness rather than the polite sunbaenim.

I hope I answered your question and was able to elaborate on this properly! I am so sorry I didn't answer this right away, I hope this was helpful! If you have any further questions feel free to ask, and I will do my best to answer as correctly as I can.