#I don't dislike Ben Solo in the canon

[thesinglesjukebox]

BEN PLATT - "ANDREW"

"Andrew! Andrew! Andrew! You're gonna love meeeeeeeeee..."

[6.36]

Jeffrey Brister: Platt’s an incredibly talented vocalist, there’s no doubt there, and a good performance can do a lot to elevate average material -- like, say, a pleasant but unremarkable folky song about being sad and gay. His delicate falsetto dancing over top of the guitar, how the chorus blooms with yearning in a name, staying away from theatre kid pyrotechnics -- it’s a laundry list of good choices, and I’m just bowled over by its simple and straightforward beauty and earnestness. [8]

Alfred Soto: Depending on my diet that day I can embrace this unmitigated schmaltz or vomit at the sight of it. Neither the falsetto nor the lyrics have heard of subtlety. I am past the age when unrequited lust wears the drag of lachrymosity, but I hope I'm not callous enough to understand when young adults need it. [6]

Hannah Jocelyn: A friend and I made a list of songs about unrequited queer love, specifically when it comes to incompatible orientations. This is Ben Platt’s entry in the canon, and it’s the best song I’ve heard from him, the first that doesn't sound like rejected tracks from either Dear Evan Hansen or Blue Neighborhood -- it starts off very Simon & Garfunkel, but the more ambient Sufjan Stevens territory on the chorus fits him shockingly well. One problem: the Melodyne detracts from how sincere and pure the writing is (isn't Dave Cobb known for his authenticity?), to the point where Platt sings "if I can't get closer then I am destroyed" and sounds like a Dalek. Normally that would be a dealbreaker, and maybe I would dismiss this if I hadn't, in fact, had an Andrew or five. Cobb's production is gentle and tender enough that I can just lie back and think of all the pretty girls. [7]

Isabel Cole: I do appreciate the concept of this aching little ditty about the specific wrenching futility of crushing on a straight guy, and the idea of “wasting heartbreak” on someone who would never even be able to grant you the dignity of being rejected for your actual self is poignant. I can imagine the teen for whom this hits at exactly the right time, and that’s not nothing. But the first-love adolescent yearning of the lyrics fits oddly with the meandering melody and the folky arrangement (it’s giving Harry Styles Presents VH1’s I Love The 60s), and Platt… listen, whatever you think of  Dear Evan Hansen, no one’s ever denied that the guy can sing. Here, it’s hard to shake the sense that he’s deliberately trying to differentiate his solo work from his Broadway past by avoiding sounding too musical theater, choosing instead to flatten his clear, resonant tone into a dull, nasal drone that feels like he’s playing Barefoot Guy With Guitar in a mockumentary about hippies. It doesn’t really work -- his falsetto sounds grating, and like a lot of stage singers trying to branch out, there’s a certain mannered quality he can’t quite shake -- and the few more vibrant lines towards the end make me wish I could hear a version of this aiming for the cheap seats. [4]

Ian Mathers: As someone who has disliked Ben Platt in everything I've seen or heard him in, I was absolutely prepared to reject this song from its Cat Stevens-ass opening, but then I kept listening and... I don't know, I keep thinking about that classic tumblr post that ends with "I am cringe, but I am free." I listened a few more times and... it's kind of lovely? Something about it reminds me of Gordon Lightfoot? I remember how much songs that seemed to speak to my particular romantic torments meant to me as a teen and I can absolutely imagine the kid who is going to play this on a loop like I did Sloan's "Deeper Than Beauty" or whatever? Don't make me regret this, Platt. [8]

Nortey Dowuona: The frustrating parts of this song have nothing to do with Ben Platt's voice. Whatever his faults in Dear Evan Hansen, Ben has a mellifluous tenor that comfortably floats in the higher parts of his range, allowing certain lines that feel clunky ("what a time-wastin', sweet happiness-takin', self-esteem, mess-making, heart-breakin' shame") to float past so pleasantly that when your own voice begins to sing them, they jumble together in your throat until they all flow out with the delivery of "Andrew." Producer Dave Cobb's helium guitar chords are also not the problem -- they lift Platt's voice and remain so close to it that when they lean back and let him take center stage, they allow Platt to send his melody up and catch it comfortably. The frustrating thing is the drums; they are so thin and yet so rigid that when they enter, the song loses the butterfly subtlety it needed to soar. Derrek Phillips, who has played with Vanessa Williams and Rahsaan Barber, somehow had to anchor the song in a way that would give it heft and keep its light, breezy charm, but instead he reinforces the dull structure of a second-verse drum groove, and all the hard work done by Platt and Alex Hope is squandered. A bolder choice by Platt or Cobb would've been to lean into the acoustic guitar arrangement by adding the bass and keyboards, and maybe the percussion (also done by Phillips) would act as the anchoring factor. Instead, the rigid structure kills probably the second-best thing Ben Platt has done. [7]

Jackie Powell: Ben Platt has had difficulty translating his vocal talents from film soundtrack music (the Pitch Perfect trilogy) and show tunes (The Book of Mormon and Dear Evan Hansen) into pop music. On songs like “Grow as We Go” and “Rain,” he sounded like slightly more adult versions of the characters he played. He’s leaned into motivational songs without any sort of foundation. “Andrew” works better than his previous pop offerings because of the story he paints of falling for a straight (or maybe not) friend who has led him on. A lot of these stories are coming out of the woodwork as of late with tracks such as Reneé Rapp’s “Pretty Girls” and Fletcher’s “Two Things Can Be True."  These stories need to be told and provide a certain type of respite for queer people who too have felt a similar level of pain. Platt calls the situation a “cruel joke” and self-deprecates in a witty but incredibly depressing bridge. He’s not questioning whether falling for “Andrew” wastes his time but rather declares the infatuation as a time vampire that robs more than it gives. What’s less than desired, however, is the Simon & Garfunkel cosplay he attempts in the verses. The Auto-Tune that helps layer his vocals isn’t needed. The folksiness in “Andrew” is a step in the right direction for Platt in his journey to translating better into pop. I just wish he could have paid homage to Simon & Garfunkel in a way that didn’t come across as just another Broadway character he’s playing.  [7]

Taylor Alatorre: I feel the exact same way listening to this as I do when reading the Urban Dictionary definition of any relatively common male first name. [3]

Katherine St. Asaph: What is it about guys named Andrew that inspires plaintive folk songs? Having no longings for any Andrews, I can only connect to these songs through my nostalgia, and thus Platt's is my favorite because it navigates those channels best -- which is to say it sounds exactly like Simon & Garfunkel. [6]

Mark Sinker: Not sure I remember a song where the jump from chest voice to head voice for the high notes feels so extremely foregrounded as a DECISION NOW BEING TAKEN. AND IT'S DONE! I can imagine arrangement where this works with the content: except here’s it’s like literally everything else about the song is funneling your attention to this choice instead, and I don’t think it’s what I’m meant to be thinking about? You have a nice voice mate, sorry your crush didn’t work out, that sucks.  [5]

Jacob Sujin Kuppermann: Every time I've tried to write this blurb it's come out too ironic -- couching my appreciation for it in my disbelief that Dear himself could make such a perfect rendering of the version of Sufjan Stevens' music that exists only in the minds of 2014 Tumblr users, things of that nature. But let me meet sincerity with sincerity and say that "Andrew" wrecks my shit completely every time I listen to it, every achingly beautiful guitar arpeggio and breathy note from Platt activating all of my sentimental impulses. Most of all I admire the commitment here -- there's never a moment of performance from Platt or his producers that shies away from the full teenage gay melodrama of the lyrics. Weaker souls would have tried to subvert the maudlin stuff here. I'm glad they didn't. [9]

[Read, comment and vote on The Singles Jukebox]

[sunshinechildskywalker]

CHALLENGE ANSWER EVERY QUESTION

Hey, friend! Oh boy, buckle up! I'm a writer so prepare for a long ass answer lol. Here we go...

For most controversial character, if we're referencing all of Star Wars, I would say Kylo Ren (this blog focuses on pretty much everything other than the sequel trilogy- in my mind, they don't exist lol). My personal opinion is he's kind of a little bitch lol, but I appreciate the idea that he's sort of a reverse Luke and Vader situation. In L&V's case, it's the son turning the father back from the dark side, and in Ben Solo's case, it's the father (I wished) turning the son from the dark. *Ask me about my Kylo Ren potential rant lol.

My most unpopular opinion I would say is I actually really love Jar Jar Binks lol😅 I see why people dislike him, but I think he's sweet (and quite possibly a Sith Lord🤪)

Tumblr is my fav fandom pocket for sure!

Endor! It's funny, I actually live in a very wooded area irl, so when I would watch ROTJ on summer nights with the windows open and listen to the crickets chirping, it felt like I was really there🥰

I love me some good Luke and Vader father & son hurt/comfort, and anything Skysolo! If anyone reading this writes these kinds of fics, feel free to message me links to your work!

Favorite story element is hands down Luke's character arc and him saving Vader through compassion and forgiveness. I could go on, but then this would be a REALLY long post lol😆

Sure do! I won't link just for sake of it being kind of confusing- some of the songs take some explaining and some are just from my own fics lol, but some tops songs include "Spectrum" by Muzzy, "Isle of Flightless Birds" by Twenty One Pilots, and "illicit affairs" by Taylor Swift (bonus: see my fanvids for some of these here!)

Favorite Star Wars meme is the "and your pal friendpatine"- that one still makes me giggle snort after all these years🤣

Favorite piece of content is and probably always will be Return of the Jedi!

I get a lot of merch from a local comic book store and some from Comic-Con! I have a few Pops, some figurines, and an Ewok backpack, among many other things😁

I relate to Luke the most- I consider myself a compassionate person who leads with my heart, and I tend to be quick to forgive (sometimes to a fault). But hey, maybe I'll save someone from the Dark Side someday😆

My comfort character is 100% Luke. His compassion and willingness to see the good in others inspires me to do the same irl. He's seen me through the good, bad, and ugly in my life, and I don't know where I'd be had I not clung to him. In other words, he's my son😆

Sequel trilogy? Garbage. Absolutely not canon and never will be to me. Basically it boils down to mischaracterization and trying to undo essential parts of the Originals. I've shed actual tears of disappointment and anger over those movies. I'm happy for the people who can enjoy them, but I will never be able to.

I love the Luke & Vader community! I love being a part of something so inclusive, wacky, and fun! I know I can always reach out if I need something fandom-related or just want to pal around with like-minded people. Shoutout to all my L&V fans! A part of the fandom I don't enjoy is the incest between Luke and Vader that somehow seems to creep up in my AO3 from time to time.

A Star Wars blog I hope will follow me is @kaelinaloveslomaris if she ever followed me back or read my work, I would actually shit my pants.

The short version of why I fell in love with Star Wars is Luke's character arc and him saving Vader, and in turn, Vader saving Luke. The long version? Well, I'll post that another time when I'm feeling sappy🤪

Yes! I went to opening night for TLJ (unfortunately lol) and TROS (also unfortunate lol). I was thoroughly disappointed by both, but I also got to see Solo on opening night and that was a blast! I will say, the energy at all three was unmatched, and it was fun to be around other Star Wars super fans irl😁

I sure do write fanfic! My AO3 is here 😁 You will find a lot of L&V hurt/comfort, angst, etc, and a little Skysolo!

I absolutely loved the Obi-Wan series- seeing Obi-Wan duel Vader ("Anakin is gone. I am what remains."😭), everything about little Leia, Reva, Hayden Christensen's return, just EVERYTHING! I especially loved when Obi-Wan told Leia in what ways she was like her parents. I've seen this series at least four times and that part gets me every time😭

Yes!

Thank you SO much if you read through all this chaos- I hope you learned more about me and got a better look into my perspective of everything!

Want to answer these questions yourself? Find the original post here!

[typewriteringalaxy]

if dathan and miramir are godparents of ben?

I can't put into words how much I love this idea! Let's see how it would fit in with the lore established in previous asks (and expanding upon it bc you know I won't miss this opportunity to ramble!)

1- Peaceful AU, Padmé and Satine don't die:

It's 19 BBY and Maul has imprisoned Satine after she's been deposed by the Death Watch—along with her young son, Dathan, whose existence and the identity of his father she's kept secret for obvious political reasons, but the latter of which Maul would probably find through the Force and maximise his revenge. Let's say that with Korkie, Bo-Katan and the rest of Kryze's clan help, Obi-Wan manages to save Satine and his son. Satine could not reclaim the throne under those turbulent circumstances, and her saviours would all advise her to seek safety away from New Mandalore. Given her personal understanding with Padmé and also Obi-Wan's friendship with her, I like to think she'd be the first they'd think to trust—and that trust would beget trust so we'd have the two couples of badass and pregnant politicians with their Jedi Masters illicit lovers fighting the galaxy's corruption and hiding their secret children. I also like to think in that context that Anakin would be surrounded with enough assurance by Obi Wan etc so as to not fall to the Dark Side. Dathan Kryze (-Kenobi) and Luke & Leia Amidala (-Skywalker) and Miramir grow up together with the dynamics already analysed.

So, going full peace, say one day princess Leia meets galaxy-renowned scroundel Han Solo after a diplomatic mission goes awry. Miramir, perhaps her handmaiden/bodyguard in following their mothers's footsteps, initially tries to discourage Leia from getting involved with an untrustworthy man the likes of Han Solo, as she prioritises the young Amidala's safety—and she's content bc she mistakes their antagonism for real dislike. Dathan, however—let's say he was with Leia in that mission—sees their aggressive flirting for what it is and backs his childhood friend up. When 19yo Leia speed-marries Han and gets pregnant, he and Luke support them. Miramir just swallows her objections for the most part, an I-told-you-so ready on her tongue every time Han and Leia quarrel.

Given all that, it'd make perfect sense for Leia to choose Dathan as her son's "godfather"—and Ben's name makes all the more sense if Dathan picked it, as the nickname his mom calls his dad. Dathan would dote on Ben—but in this scenario, Ben would already have plenty of people doting on him and teaching him things, from the Force to piloting to diplomacy. Perhaps Dathan would press Han a little into being more present for Ben, or facilitate some father-son bonding on the Falcon when Leia and her side of the family are at odds with Han. Dathan's an enabler all around lol.

Miramir, however, would become Ben's "godmother" later by marrying Dathan. In this scenario, where the previous generation has triumphed over evil and receives hero worship, Sabé's faith in Amidala(s) would only be stronger, and in peace she might even have more time to raise and shape her daughter. It'd take a while for Miramir to even realise that she's suffocating in the path set out for her and even longer to break free and find herself. Dathan might've had a crush on her since their childhood—and their disagreements over Han and Leia's romance could've made some sparks fly between them too—but they'd officially get together in their early thirties and then have Rey. Therefore, the canon age difference between Ben and Rey would still apply.

2- Satine dies, Padmé lives AU

Following the positive scenario of this ask more closely, a Dathan Organa (-Kenobi) would perhaps be more sober as a character, shaped of the loss of his mother and raised in a foster family. He'd still support Leia (Amidala), though perhaps less fervently, and naming Ben could hold much more emotional weight. Especially if Alderaan is destroyed in this AU, the Amidalas would be his last family, and Ben in particular. So he'd treasure his "godson" and be less forgiving of Han's negligence as a parent in favour of his smuggling career—perhaps even to Leia's, even if her duties were more noble. On the downside, Dathan might inadvertently drive any existing wedge between Ben and his parents further.

He and Miramir might even be matchmade by Leia or Padmé as Ben's "godparents" (given the distance between the planets they'd grown up in, the Amidalas and by extension Sabé and Miramir on Naboo vs Dathan on Alderaan, and the fact that Miramir might not always accompany the twins and meet with Dathan: different schedules, different ages etc.) Miramir, sent by the Amidalas (the Amidala family, not to be confused with the Amidalans) as Dathan's bodyguard right before Alderaan's destruction, starts developing feelings for him, which, despite her stoic exterior, get noticed by the women around her. But Dathan's closed off after his monumental loss, and after reuniting with his biological father (perhaps knowing him for the first time as such), he might seek consolation in training in the Jedi ways (emphasis on the detachment of their dogma). Leia would make him "godfather" of her son in an attempt to keep him involved in the world of personal attachments and bring him closer to Miramir—two birds with one stone.

They both love Ben, and that love brings them closer, or at least gives them opportunities to interact. Miramir initially would care for Ben as just another Amidala—and leave him behind along with the rest of them when she goes to find herself, be it by joining the enemy or adventuring solo. But Dathan, who's lost so many family members, wouldn't stand for it, and he'd demand of her to be a good "godmother". And he'd be convincing—not only bc of her feelings for him, but also her memory of being somewhat (or very) neglected by Sabé growing up in the stead of her duties. (Though her feelings for Dathan would be a catalyst in her returning to the "good side", if she had gone "evil" in her finding-herself arc). That would be a point in common with teen Ben grappling with a similar situation. They'd help him—and when they'd get married, he'd be their star wars equivalent of their ring bearer.

3- "Canon" AU: Satine and Padmé are dead, the twins are seperated, Obi-Wan is on Tattoine etc.

Now onto the least positive scenario, in which after Padmé's death and Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, the twins are seperated at birth: Luke on Tattoine and Leia adopted by the Organas, where Obi-Wan had already entrusted his son. (Obi-Wan has done an extra child delivery in this AU). Assuming Sabé knew where Padmé's children ended up, she might send Miramir to Alderaan and have her be raised as Leia's bodyguard while Sabé herself would join the Anidalans.

Ben as mirathan's "godson" would combine elements of both the above AUs—Miramir being vehemently against hanleia initially bc she's raised with the purpose (ordered by her mother) to keep Leia safe, but Leia still makes her "godmother" to Ben bc she and Dathan are the closest people to her and to matchmake them. The one who had a crush first would be Dathan, who might just gradually pull Miramir back from her rebelling against Sabé's wishes by joining the enemy (helping the First Order come into existence?) in the name of caring for their "godson" and the strength of his feelings. Or, Miramir joins the Empire before Ben's birth, Dathan would be the sole "godfather" etc.

One difference that I consider major in this AU, however, is that Padmé, Anakin, Obi-Wan etc would be dead by the time Ben was growing up. It'd be just Leia, Luke, Han and mirathan. So I think mirathan could be instrumental in keeping Ben from the Dark Side—providing him a Force-sensitive role model that cares more about him than the principles of the Jedi/the adherence to the Light + someone with understanding what it's like to have parents that care more about their duties than you personally and maybe also the lure of the enemy. So Ben might spend a lot more time with them and grow up close to them—and Rey by extension.

4- Mandalorian Dathan AU?

If Bo-Katan had raised Dathan out of spite or love to Satine (or both), it's doubtful that he'd have a connection to Luke and Leia, or that he'd even know he's a Kenobi. Only if Miramir was Ben's "godmother" would Dathan become his "godfather", and the chances of that grow slimmer. Still a fun AU though!

Oops I wrote another essay. Hope you enjoy the mirathan theories, dearest anon, and I'll wait for your thoughts on them or on anything else you'd like💕

[alligatorjesie]

Love how you state right at the top of reply how you 'did tag this properly'

Then proceeded to actually tag it how you fucking should have to fucking start with

but still did not fix the tags in your original post

That's really fun. </s>

The correct tags you're looking to use so you don’t end up coughing your hate everywhere with your uncovered mouth you filthy fucking animal are:

Anti-fandom

Anti_fandom

or Antifandom

The tag you don't want to use is;

Anti Fandom

with the space

like you did correctly in this reply post.

because ya kinda understand what you did wrong there now, don’t you?

Here's a little tumblr coding basics 101;

if I made the tag

'Zuko dies in a horrible train crash after Godzilla shit on the tracks'

That entire tag will now show up in the zuko tag, the godzilla tag, the shit tag, the train tag, so on and so on.

Because that's how this website works.

Tumblr considers spaces in a tag kinda like a new instance of a tag. A comma in the code acts like a ‘stop’. When you type out a full sentence with spaces it considers those spaces ‘tag breaks’.

It'll do the small work for you and ignore the instances of 'The' or 'In' and 'A' but everything else that could potentially be a keyword gets thrown into the site-wide tagging system.

When someone arranges a tag as one word (either by actually making it one word or using a hyphen) Tumblr will look at it and go 'Ah! This is one word!' and sorts it accordingly.

To Tumblr 'anti' is an active(awful) tag so when you tag something 'anti reylo' it will sort it into the anti tag and reylo tag accordingly.

Meaning the regular joes who are just going about their normal business in their fandom space and haven’t preemptively blocked the anti tag or you personally will now see you being an asshole to us in living color.

Over the fact 'you think' the zutara ship is more morally upstanding because it has less ‘problematic’ issues over a nearly identical canon ship, reylo, which is Ben Solo and Rey from Star Wars, and the also non-canon Harry Potter ship, dramione.

They're fictional fucking ships.

bodycount don’t really fuckin’ matter because the fake people they killed are fake.

There's no moral supremacy over one vs the other.

Uncle Iroh was a decorated war general so I'm pretty sure his body count is higher than everyone in the room but since we get to only see him in ‘jolly old man trying to stop his stupid nephew from becoming his monster of a father’ mode so we kinda forget he's a fuckin' war general.

and you know what man

I just don’t fucking know what crack you smoked to come up with this one

so here we fucking are

And since op tagged this so poorly when they made the original post trying to put my whole fucking fandom on blast

like some kinda beacon

a whole ass reylo showed up would ya fuckin’ believe it?

after tagging the reylo fandom?

Well that reylo is now here to help you get your facts straight and to ask you once again with feeling to fix those tags and find your nearest exit buddy

Anyways, basic fucking coding lesson aside:

This isn't a case of 'if you dislike it you should just scroll past'

this is a case of 'Why the fuck are you even fucking here?'

I'm glad you got zutara, a nice enjoyable ship that I also interact with on this demon’s asshole of a website because it has such striking resemblance to reylo, to look at fondly and enjoy but there is no fucking reason for you to come into other Incredibly Similar Fandom's Tags

LIED ABOUT SHIT ABOUT THOSE CHARACTERS/SHIPS OUTRIGHT

then tell those people their ships are worse 'because the writing was bad'.

you said and I quote: Kylo also has a worse record than Zuko: murdering his dad, oppressing countless people, killing civilians, and maiming people.

Kylo Ren is a weapon of war being used by a tyrannical madman who has been in his head since childhood.

he was convinced to kill his father by this madman and regrets doing it so badly his entire moral compass gets upended and he literally kills that same madman The Very Next Fucking Movie, not for power mind you,

but because he wanted to save Rey

He even still regrets killing his father in tros, a point JJ needed to so sloppily rammed in there he just copy pasted a whole fucking scene from his last movie.

Kylo never kills a single civilian throughout the entire trilogy. The town of people he killed at the beginning of TFA are Resistance members. He is not responsible for the planetary system being blown up in TFA that was Hux and Snoke

Kylo Ren Only Kills Combatants Of War For The Entire Trilogy.

(go on @fanfic-lover-girl , go check for yourself. It’s only 3 movies. I’ll watch them with you. Again.

We'll see who's right about these little details, the person who has seen these movies over and over or the person who admits they ain't watched them once)

you just straight up lied about a character to make yourself feel better about your fictional ship.

And that’s just fucking nuts to me man.

What the fuck ass backwards world are we living in that this is the hell you choose to raise? There's 2 wars going on and the fucking nazis are back but this is what you wanna put on blast?

That reylo and dramione are worse ships because the writing isn’t good to you?

I assure you the fans in these fandom have gone above and beyond to fix the bad writing brought on by their imperfect creators but the shit you’re complaining about ain’t even problems. You’re just making shit up

How Fucking Nice must it be to have people who made your media be perf little snowflakes but it is not our fucking fault JJ is a fucking moron and JKRolfing is a massive terf cunt.

(Rian tho is actually perfect and is responsible for 75% of Ben's character growth in canon so bless that man he did his fucking best but I digress-)

People have created whole fucking short animated movies and detailed comics along with incredibly well written fanfictions to correct what they didn't like about the story.

‘death of the author’ at work baby.

Unless you’re the fucking fandom police your opinion on what is good media vs bad mean don’t mean jack fuckin’ shit brah.

so,

kindly,

Fuck off.

PS:

You know being told to kill myself nearly 1000 times over the past year and a half ain’t been a fuckin’ cakewalk enough without the added shit frosting that is people in fandoms trying to talk down to other nearly identical fandoms.

This banner ain't a fuckin' joke. I have been told to kill myself this many times by antis posting hate into the reylo tag.

Assholes like you are 1000 times worse than all the fictional bad men combined.

You're going after real people.

Do better

Anyhoots here’s a fuckin’ picture of my cat she’s fucking adorable

Demonization of the Enemies to Lovers Trope

I find it very disingenuous when Zutara antis compare or lump Zutara with problematic ships like Reylo and Dramione. Anyone who makes a claim like this should have not any opinions about ATLA respected. Because they obviously did not watch the show.

There are major differences that set Zutara apart from Reylo and Dramione.

Zutara vs Dramione - Friendship

Zuko and Katara reconciled and became very close friends in season 3. Draco and Hermione disliked each other in canon and the best of their relationship was civility. Dramione could have served the same narrative function as Zutara by representing union after war but Dramione lacked the canon building blocks that Zutara had.

Zutara vs Reylo - Redemption

Zuko has a powerful redemption arc. But even when Zuko was an antagonist, he was never truly evil. And Zuko's actions towards Katara (eg tying her to a tree) were not completely monstrous. Zuko and Katara never crossed any boundaries while enemies. When Katara starts showing compassion to Zuko, it is in season 2 when Zuko is no longer an active threat (eg. offering to heal Iroh and their emotional moment in the catacombs). Compare this to Reylo where there are all these romantic undertones while Reylo and Kylo are still enemies. Kylo also has a worse record than Zuko: murdering his dad, oppressing countless people, killing civilians, and maiming people. And Rey for some reason, before Kylo does anything to deserve it, begins to feel sorry for him. Unlike Zuko, we don't see Kylo truly atone for what he did to Rey. Not to mention the abusive elements in their relationship such as Kylo calling Rey worthless.

The point is that people need to stop demonizing enemies to lovers ships. And stop lumping healthy ships like Zutara with more toxic ships like Dramione and Reylo. It's not a fair comparison.

[ramblings-of-a-mad-cat]

Rakepick is like the opposite of Kylo Ren for me, personally. She's an inversion because she used to be an interesting addition to the Potterverse (by no means likeable but INTERESTING) as a flawed gray character. Then they made her a villain and now she's boring as shit. Kylo is the reverse. He started out as a neat take for the galaxy far far away: A neo nazi. Wannabe Vader who missed the point of what Vader was and was so damn privileged that there was no real reason for him to turn beyond selfishness. Then the sequels made him "complex" and ruined Luke Skywalker for the sake of justifying Kylo's fascism. I know you're a Reylo but tell me, was it worth it?

...Okay, I don’t want to sound cliché but to a degree, this kind of opened my eyes. 

Like, I’m now realizing as you talk about it, that Kylo Ren brought a new kind of villainy to the Star Wars franchise. One that is (unfortunately) very appropriate for modern times. If the dark times of the Empire represented Nazi Germany, well...the First Order could easily represented the rise of the “Proud Boys.” and thinking of Ben Solo like that...yeah, it hurts to think about him like that. But it’s true. Kylo Ren isn’t Hitler. He’s the angry white boy who believes Hitler should have won. Now, Star Wars has never had the racism aspect to it, at least not in terms of how it showcases The Dark Side. So it’s not as bad, but...it’s still bad. And Kylo Ren’s temperamental and immature behavior in the first film provided social commentary. He is, in every sense, a privileged character. We don’t see his upbringing, which means that Kylo stans can head-canon him as being abused, but...this has the same energy as turning Lucius Malfoy into an abuser to fuel Draco’s redemption. It’s just not true in these cases, and it shouldn’t be necessary to redeem the villain if they deserve it. 

You know, for the first time, I think I can really see why people hated The Last Jedi. I do not and probably never will agree, but...I understand. The path they took Kylo Ren on was compelling and well-acted, and I maintain that the reason given for his fall doesn’t ruin Luke Skywalker (That was a misunderstanding. It was arguably no one’s fault.) but the fact remains that they didn’t have to write it that way. Kylo Ren didn’t need to be redeemed, and even though he has sympathetic qualities...I think the best thing to come out of his character taking this route was how interesting a relationship he developed with Rey. Whether you ship it or not, the progression of their dynamic is one of the best parts of this trilogy, and it’s actually linear, unlike so much else. In every other way, these movies’ fixation on redeeming Ben Solo tied him to a destiny of recycling the story of Darth Vader. When in so many ways, this is the worst ending he could have had. Because he wasn’t Darth Vader. He never could be. That was the whole point. In the first movie, he was a wannabe kid, romanticizing the concept of being a “Dark Lord” through his grandfather. In the second movie, he let go of his hero-worship and proceeded to surpass Vader - succeeding his own master, something Vader never managed. Then in the third movie...he literally gets the exact same ending. 

In hindsight, after he rejected redemption twice...maybe that should have been the end of it. Maybe “Duel of The Fates” would have been better. What I see with Kylo Ren is an interesting commentary on the past, but the potential to stand out as something new. Potential that is squandered, and this doesn’t just affect him. I’d also be remiss if I didn’t mention Finn. The main issue with TLJ is that it was the beginning of Finn no longer being one of the two leads. For better or for worse (and most people would agree it was for worse) the role of male lead was usurped by Kylo Ren. I’m not going to say that was racially motivated, necessarily - I mean, he is the villain. It makes sense for him to be a major character...but it sure didn’t help, with how split the fandom already was. Finn is a far greater waste of potential than Kylo Ren. But I think Kylo’s wasted potential set off a chain reaction that ultimately doomed Finn as well. (See, it wasn’t Rose’s fault, now leave her alone.) Because in TLJ, the story became more about Rey VS Ben than the heroes facing The First Order.

On the whole, I don’t think it’s nearly as severe a change in characterization as Patricia Rakepick. Kylo Ren’s shift is far more subtle - he simply stops having tantrums, for the most part, and behaves far more calmly. Plus in his case, it’s easy to see why it happened. There’s a clear event that bridges these two phases of his personality - Han’s death. I think it’s safe to say that the last of Ben Solo’s innocence and naivete was snuffed out after he murdered his father. Which is, itself, another great example of how he would have perhaps been better as a mainstay villain. (We only got about two minutes of “Supreme Leader Kylo Ren” but it was just. So badass. Then Palpatine showed up and...ugh.) Rakepick doesn’t have any of that. There’s no logical reason for half of her actions, and still no explanation for half of the reasons why I feel inclined to doubt she’s truly evil...but more and more, it seems like this is just stuff Jam City forgot about...(Jacob’s Notebook. I will literally never let that go, it needs to come up again.) 

[x-wearethefuture-x]

((Ben Solo is alright or whatever, but have you ever heard of Jacen Solo? In this house, we stan Darth Caedus.))

[lizzibennet]

Ok but what they said is lichrally how it happened, the "reylos" didn't rewrite star wars to make Ben Solo a victim, he just always was if you actually pay attention to canon. Just say you don't like him and go, it's not that hard, you don't have to disagree with canon to dislike the character.

i'm very sorry about you being illiterate but i said i don't like him. that's what "i don't particularly like him either" means. i don't like him. i don't disagree with canon to dislike the character; i disagree with canon to make an effort to like him sometimes, because canon kylo ren fucking sucks. that's the POINT of making an effort of not reblogging posts made by people who enjoy his canon characterization. because i DISLIKE it. if i liked it why the fuck would i not engage with content made by people who also like it. are you actually stupid

[antianakin]

While there is obviously a similarity to the actions (if we take the sequels as canon), there's an ENTIRELY different motivation behind the two. Or, well, there is an obvious reasonable motivation behind Obi-Wan's choice that really doesn't exist for Luke's choice to my knowledge.

It's been pretty clearly stated by people like Lucas and Mark Hamill that Luke was demonstrably NOT READY to find out about Anakin and Vader being the same person. Luke was not ready for the truth, and Obi-Wan KNOWS THAT, which is why he holds onto that information for when he believes Luke is ready to hear it without going off the handle as a result. Luke literally commits what could be considered almost a suicide when he DOES find out, and while he's in the least ideal possible situation to hear it in, it still goes to show just how unready Luke was for that revelation.

Obi-Wan clearly has some familiarity with Luke, has had enough interactions with him for Luke to connect the name and recognize Obi-Wan on sight in ANH. Obi-Wan also clearly is fully aware of what Owen and Beru have told Luke ABOUT Anakin and that it's total lies. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that Obi-Wan is FULLY aware of how much Luke already idolizes Anakin, something Obi-Wan has had next to no control over as someone who respects that Owen and Beru are Luke's official guardians and he is not. He could've like... forced Luke to find out really early against Owen and Beru's desires, I guess, but that's pretty wildly out of character for Obi-Wan and I don't see what Obi-Wan would gain from it. So by the time he DOES manage an opportunity to speak to Luke about it, Luke is 19 and has had YEARS of seeing Anakin in a particular way, which means dropping the bombshell of Anakin's true identity on Luke is going to hit HARD. It does not seem unreasonable to me for Obi-Wan to keep that in consideration, especially given, ya know, what ANAKIN did when pushed emotionally, and hold back on something he knows could set Luke off in a very bad direction until he was a LOT more sure that Luke would take it WELL.

None of this would be true for Luke and Ben Solo. I'm going to go out and say here that I think the way Luke is written in the sequels is really bad and out of character to begin with, I really dislike it, and so I just generally ignore it anyway and don't consider it a part of my PERSONAL canon. But for the sake of discussion, I'll try to do a basic comparison that will be predominantly based on my memories of the sequel films (I have consumed exactly no other sequels media and only know it through other people's posts).

Ben Solo would NOT have grown up idolizing Anakin Skywalker as the heroic father he never got to know. Ben Solo HAD a heroic father in Han, he also has a heroic mother in Leia. He knows BOTH of his parents and there's VERY little within the films that I recall to indicate that either parent did not love Ben or treated him badly at all. So he has no reason to hyperfixate on Anakin Skywalker the way that Luke would've done growing up with his aunt and uncle. Anakin's not even actually Ben's grandfather since Leia does not consider Anakin her father in any way but genetic. I find it incredibly unlikely that Ben would not have heard about Bail and Breha Organa as his ACTUAL grandparents. So while I'm sure Ben was fully aware that Anakin Skywalker was Luke and Leia's biological father, I'm also sure that Leia would've made it extra clear to her son that SHE did not consider Anakin her father, and so she would not consider Anakin to be Ben's grandfather.

Which means if Luke is choosing to discuss Anakin Skywalker with Ben Solo solely as someone good and heroic and perfect, that's... really ridiculous and entirely unnecessary. Choosing to disregard the truth about Anakin doesn't do Ben any good, especially since he'd have probably been a lot younger when Luke was choosing to tell those stories than Luke was when Obi-Wan first tells him anything. If Ben has an attachment to his genetic grandfather or a hyperfixation on Anakin Skywalker as a good heroic person, that's entirely Luke's own fault because he CREATED that separation.

Which is completely the opposite from the situation with Obi-Wan and Luke.

I will say that I think this is a really STUPID characterization of Luke, and not something I think Luke as he is portrayed in the original trilogy would have ever actually chosen to do. Luke in ROTJ never DENIES that Anakin and Vader are the same person, he does the exact opposite and that's... kind-of the whole point. Luke can recognize that Vader's done horrific monstrous things and still believe he COULD do better, can still HOPE for Vader to do better. This is not Luke just... pretending Anakin and Vader are different people or pretending Anakin never did anything wrong in his life. And I don't see the benefit in teaching about Anakin in that way to future students. It makes more sense to me that Luke would use Anakin as a cautionary tale, that he can extol that Anakin ultimately did make the right decision (kinda) but that Anakin made a lot of BAD decisions before that and that mindfulness and discipline and acceptance are what will keep them from going down a similar path. But that if they do make a mistake and hurt someone, they can always choose to do better next time.

I don't hate Luke. I hate SEQUELS Luke because SEQUELS Luke has nothing in common with the original Luke aside from the actor playing him, quite honestly.

I like thinking about all of the people in the galaxy who will only ever remember Anakin as the piece of shit nightmare monster he chose to be.

I love remembering that most people in the galaxy will only ever think of him as a villain, a tyrant, an oppressor, a murderer, and never as a hero.

Like regardless of whether he was redeemed at the end of the series or not, his legacy is hatred. The galaxy will never remember him as a good person, it will always ALWAYS remember him as the person who helped destroy democracy, genocide the Jedi, and enforce the Empire’s tyranny for 30 years.

It brings me warm fuzzies to remember that.

[noddytheornithopod]

The two most non-controversial men: Steven Universe and Kylo Ren

(For this)

Wow, trying to get me cancelled much? :P

Steven

My favorite thing about them: Just a really positive role model for masculinity, being someone pretty nice and sweet and open about his feelings, and his failures are when he fails to live up to those things. It's good he's not perfect either.

My least favorite thing about them: IDK... I guess maybe he's a bit of a handful in the really early episodes? But even then, it kinda makes sense.

My favorite canon relationship: Relationship is very open ended and doesn't specify if it means romantic or in general, so I'll cover all bases. Ship wise, I ship him with Connie, they're just really sweet and compliment each other well while bringing out the best in each other. In terms of general character relationships, I think all of the main Crystal Gems have really great dynamics with him, they all have their nice features while still having specific nuances to them. I enjoy his dynamic with Peridot too, for similar reasons.

My favorite non-canon relationship: I mean, Steven being the viewpoint character has a dynamic with pretty much every character on-screen. :v So it's Rose Quartz by default, because she's the only major character I can think of he wouldn't have met. Would be interesting to see what a conversation between them would be like, even if neither can exist.

The sexuality I headcanon for them: Probably pan if you ask me.

What I’d do if I could spend the day with them: Make sure he's taking it easy and enjoying himself, I don't want him to have another SU Future incident. :P

Random fact about them I like: Nothing really comes to mind?

Kylo Ren/Ben Solo

My favorite thing about them: Hmm... I feel so indifferent this is actually really hard. Until I can think of a better answer, I'll just say Ben Swolo memes. :v Okay fine, for a more serious answer... I do think there's potential in the whole "kid of galactic heroes feels isolated" and parallels to IRL radicalisation into harmful ideologies thing.

My least favorite thing about them: the fact that people either love him so much he becomes all they care about, or that people hate him so much like they have a vendetta against him they think his mere presence ruins everything I kinda feel like he's kinda safe as a character, in a way? The most interesting thing he did was when he killed Snoke to become the big bad and go further into darkness, making any potential redemption harder, but then as we know, "somehow, Palpatine returned". In general, I just kinda get this sense he feels so manufactured to be "sympathetic evil but secretly not that evil deep down" guy. I find the internal conflicts and moral ambiguity of characters like Anakin, Maul and even freaking Dooku more interesting, personally. I feel like whenever I'm watching him I'm seeing an "I'M SO CONFLICTED" sign. I don't dislike the character or have anything against him like some people who seem to fume at his mere existence, but I feel like there's just more interesting dark side characters. It's not even that he's a failure at living up to the legacy of the dark side or anything, it's just again I feel like they played it too safe with him.

My favorite canon relationship: IDK, Rey? *sees pitchforks* Oh shut up, I'm not even a Reylo shipper, I'm completely indifferent to what people do and don't ship with the character. I purely mean this in terms of their dynamic and chemistry.

My favorite non-canon relationship: I like the idea of him being in his Darth Vader phase and then learning about what Anakin was like, maybe ghost Anakin can show up and tell him "lol I moved past all that".

The sexuality I headcanon for them: I barely care enough to even answer?

What I’d do if I could spend the day with them: Try not to piss him off in case he gets violent. :v

Random fact about them I like: The idea that he talks to Darth Vader helmet all the time but it's actually secretly Sidious amuses me to a degree.

[him-e]

The filmmakers genuinely don't seem to understand why people disliked this movie so I doubt any story changes would take place, maybe they'll release an alternate cut of the ending with the trio on the DVD but I don't know. An extended cut won't change the fundamental movie. But I think it's possible that Disney could do a theatrical release of an extended cut because the TROS box office has been disappointing so far and they might want to push TROS earnings past TLJ

Of course they’re just releasing it as a hail mary to grab more money. I just hope people realize they have literally nothing up their sleeve. There’s no hidden gem, no deleted scene, no unreleased footage that can fundamentally change the fact that this movie was badly written and ill conceived from start to end. 

The only thing that could make me feel SLIGHTLY better is an extended cut of Ben’s death that shows Rey reacting as any normal human being would in the face of her soulmate (and literal force-bonded)’s death. But it still wouldn’t make the movie better.

(also, my ladies, my dudes, I BEG you, stop deluding yourselves that they filmed an alternate ending in which Ben lived. They didn’t. Chris Terrio gave exactly 0 fucks about Ben Solo and the more he talks the more he sounds like a scorned Luke/Leia shipper who went out of his way to “reunite the twins” and erasing any trace of Leia’s individual life, including her actual canon husband and son. It’s much more likely that in his original plans Ben was supposed to die in that pit never to be seen again.)

[queenofcarrots]

it's so interesting how a lot of people who love kylo dislike poe and a lot of people who love poe dislike kylo. there isn't this sort of disparity with some of the other good-guy characters like, say, finn (every single kylo stan i follow also loves finn even if they don't stan him actively) so i wonder if there's a reason for it like a disparity in fictional preferences.

Coming from the perspective of someone who loves Kylo and hopes for a redemption for Ben Solo: I don’t pay a lot of attention to anti-Poe discourse so I can’t say for sure, but there are a few things I can think of:

1) A reaction against antis who want to match up Rey with anyone who isn’t Kylo/Ben. With the “I’m Rey” “I know” at the very end of TLJ, I guess there were people popping up who wanted to compare this with Leia and Han’s “I know” moment (which was quite different!). So, new Poe/Rey shippers, not “I think this would be a cool pairing” shippers but “this is the canon ship now, Reylo is dead” shippers. So there’s a tendency for Reylos (and others who like Kylo) to push against that (naturally, I think).

2) I do think Poe came across quite badly in TLJ, in ways that Finn (for example) did not. Finn did his very best, completed his arc from “I just want to save Rey” (which is itself admirable) to “Rebel Scum”. Poe, on the other hand, disobeyed direct orders at least twice, although he was forgiven at the end. His heart was in the right place, but the way it was framed in the story was decidedly negative. 

Honestly those are the only two things I can think of, shipping discourse stuff and his slightly negative presentation in TLJ. 

As for why Poe stans don’t like Kylo, I guess for the same reason most antis don’t like him (he’s so evil, killed lots of people, killed his dad, yada yada yada, you know, the usual) (Edit: I’m not saying that Poe stans are antis, I phrased this poorly - “most antis” is distinct from “Poe stans in the first sentence of this paragraph)

I hadn’t considered this before so I’m interested to hear what other people think about it, actually. I personally think Poe is okay, and I love the idea that he and Ben were friends as kids, although I’m not convinced that’s going to be canon. (I do love fan fics that explore their dynamic, though)

[oksanaastankova]

If you dislike i mean canon ship of ben solo and rey, dont killme i feel sorry for fans mourned for anti hero died after reddmption and jodie stared as rey's mom miramir but in au Miramir is mother of v

i don't dislike anon the only star wars i've seen is the ones with natalie portman in it and only because it had natalie portman i have zero knowledge on the subject i assumed the fact that i've never reblogged anything star wars related made it pretty clear but i'm glad you're including me in your world anon i agree reylo deserved better ily

[fuckitup-in-style]

I am not arguing with the Darth Maul part. His and Savage’s arc was fucking a fucking masterpiece and the only thing I’m sad about was that Maul was killed in a duel he initiated with Kenobi right before Luke Skywalker’s arc in A New Hope. And compared to Kylo Ren, it is significantly better. If I had to chose one of the to route for, it would be Maul.

But I dislike the dismissal of the abuse Ben Solo had to go though as well.

Kylo Ren has many similarities with Maul in terms of “villian with a tragic past”.

- He was basically seduced, manipulated, stalked, tormented as well as psychologically, emotionally and (later) physically abused by the same person who was basically responsible for the downfall of his entire family line. (The said abuse was suggested to have been occurring since his fucking birth just an fyi). AKA. not treated as a prince but more like a pet or a glorified weapon.

- He was taken away from his parents when he was only a young kid - I think it was when he was 10? I don't know - and was furthermore isolated from them so technically Leia and Han didn't even get a chance to support him through anything really significant happening.

- His uncle attempted to kill him - who was remarked by Luke himself as being seen as a ‘scared boy’ who blew up the temple in fear induced self-defense. He was then hunted down like an animal by the surviving jedi younglings, basically forcing him into the arms of the only entity that he thought would accept him - the dark-side.

I will not argue against the points that he did commit mass murder, as well as having no canonical regard for the slavery and brainwashing of the stormtroopers in the First Order which supports the ‘white man, trained by white man” but he was significantly abused by that point and I don't think any abused should be dismissed or downplayed because the victim was white, black or alien. 

Another thing that makes Maul a better villian is because his arc was given the chance to be examined from his first introduction in the prequel film The Phantom Menace, to his appearances in the prequel set animated series The Clone Wars - where his abuse, background and culture was examined. We even got the chance to see him as something other than a villainous force or a sith underling in the animated series Rebels, set a few years before A New Hope. 

Rebels showed Maul allying with jedi favourites like Ahsoka Tano (my all time favourite sw character) and new characters like Ezra Bridger while still retaining his anti-hero, chaotic evil, hell-bent on killing Kenobi his arch-nemesis identity. 

His identity was given the chance to be explored far more than Kylo Ren’s whose complexity was demonstrated canonically throughout three films and a few comics (to my knowledge) in which he physically showed his internal conflict but was only given a chance to at possible redemption and atonement in the last 10-15 minutes (at most) in the Rise of Skywalker - which was confirmed to be the last installment in the Skywalker Saga - before he was killed by the very person who was responsible for all the suffering he and his family ever fucking suffered.

So another thing they have in common is that I’m disappointed that these two were fucking killed off before:

Maul: could live in peace without being a puppet of war and darkness instigated by the same white men that abused him and enslaved his people.

Kylo/ Ben: could atone and live in peace without having to live with the voice of his abuser in his fucking head 24/7.

Why Darth Maul is objectively a better "villain with a tragic past" than Kylo

Maul

Was kidnapped and his family slaughtered.

Was Canonically brainwashed and Stockholmed by his abuser from early childhood.

Was abused by his mentor regularly

Didn't commit mass murder

From an alien race oppressed by his white mentor.

Kylo

No kidnapping. Had a supportive family he grew up with

Maybe some mental influencing

Was treated like a prince by his mentor

Commited mass murder. Numerous times.

White boy trained by white man.