#I agree that ppl shouldn’t ONLY be watching severance for the ships but the way some ppl talk about Hellyna | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

silver-wield · 5 years ago

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I want to know what your thoughts are on the optional Aerith resolution scene? Particularly around the time where Aerith says the "love" line?

Awww man, you're gonna make me watch that? Lol

Ok let's do this then.

Ok, spoiler warning for ppl who haven’t played – do I still need to do this? Eh ok, (I tag FF7R spoilers as final fantasy 7 remake spoilers) and it’s gonna be reasonably long.

Also, this is one person’s interpretation of the scene, so if you disagree that’s cool and we’ll agree to disagree.

You’re also gonna have to excuse the janky quality on some of the screens, I’m grabbing them from Youtube and it’s frustrating af trying to get the exact moment I want.

Other analyses if anyone’s interested.

Shinra HQ vision scene (Cloti/plot analysis)

Chapter 3 (Cloti reblog)

Tifa character analysis

Aerith Resolution (plot analysis/theory – I should probably update this since I’ve had other ideas since then)

Train graveyard (not really an analysis, but I got some sweet screenshots of Cloti)

Clotiscrew tunnel analysis

Cloti reunion analysis

The Promise Analysis

Andrea’s approval (Cloti ask response)

Leslie analysis (not mine, but a good read)

Cloti action touching

Aerti friendship analysis

Cloti body language chapter 3

Cloti healthy disagreement

Cloti post heliboss battle (chapter 15)

Clerith playground scene

Cloti body language plate fall

Cloud and Barret friendship

Now, strap in and enjoy the ride.

Recap time!

So, Aerith's been taken by Shinra and the group is still feeling the after effects of the plate fall. Everyone's pretty demoralised and after they visit deep ground and Cloud gets the aborted flashback of himself inside a chamber being experimented on, he says to Elmyra they should go save Aerith before the same fate befalls her.

Elmyra asks they sleep on it.

During the night Cloud “wakes up” to see a ghostly Aerith heading downstairs. He follows her outside and they talk on the hill top where the lifestream can be seen glowing in the background.

It’s important to note that Cloud has literally just gone through both the train graveyard and seen a bunch of ghosts and the plate collapse where he’s seen a load of people he cares about die.

Cloud looks surprised. Hmm I wonder why....

Yeah, this is a no brainer opening. Aerith shouldn't be there and he doesn't think he's asleep at this moment. He looks around and figures out it's a dream, but isn't totally sure because how often does anyone have cognisant dreams?

You can see the doubt about if she’s a ghost or not and she doesn’t clear that up, so Cloud’s left wondering if Aerith’s dead already. The following conversation doesn’t reassure him.

Aerith's “Maybe. You tell me,” doesn't actually help here. If Cloud's having doubts about how real it is – and she's aware of his fake persona and wants to know the real him – then causing further doubt in his mind seems counterproductive. It's like she's implying an illusory nature to their relationship. It also feels like foreshadowing the moment Cloud thinks he’s not real.

She's also not looking at him when she says it, so even if it was a teasing moment between them, she's automatically set a distance between them. Because eye contact matters, remember? When someone can't meet your eye it's for a reason, whether they're uncomfortable or hiding something or whatever. Eye contact is a conscious connection between two people. Deliberately not making eye contact has meaning too.

Aerith exposition. Lots of fidgeting. No eye contact. She seems like she's making small talk to avoid something. Even when Cloud faces her head on she quickly turns away again to stare off into the distance. Cloud remains in her peripheral vision only. When Aerith does turn to reassure Cloud, he looks away.

And after is the immortal line “Don't be silly” in response to Cloud's sarcasm. I mean, isn't she supposed to be the sweet one? So wouldn't her saying silly fit with her vocabulary? Or should she have said something like “Cloud, don't be a fucking moron” because she swore that one time and everyone erupted into cheers over it? Let's say it is a callback to Claudia, who somehow had a prophetic vision of Aerith being “the one”. Aerith didn't say “silly goose” which was the exact line Claudia said, so technically Aerith's only half of what Claudia suggested. If Tifa says “goose” at some point does that validate her being in the running too?

Yes, I'm being facetious. Point is, unlike the promise between Cloud and Tifa when it was Tifa reusing her own words, this relies on Aerith having meta knowledge of what Claudia said to Cloud when he was 16 and Aerith was with Zack. So, with that in mind, why would Aerith care what Claudia had to say about some other guy she doesn't even know when she's already got a boyfriend? The implication of this is that Aerith already knew everything that would happen to Zack and she'd already moved on from him to Cloud before they ever met and yet she kept writing letters to Zack the whole time.

But then after meeting Cloud she decided to take him up on the slide and talk about her dead boyfriend...as a way to let him know she's single?

This is Cloud's face when Aerith says in a perky voice “You worried about me?” This is the bit where he says “Of course.” It's a very neutral expression tbf. There's not anything being given away and the way he says the line is very simple too. Nothing suggests he's revealing a big secret to her or that he's embarrassed by his concern. I'd say it's SOLDIER!Cloud at rest since we know from the devs that Cloud still puts on a front with Aerith because he doesn't know how to deal with her. Which is typical for Cloud since he's emotionally 16 and never dealt with girls.

That perky persona visibly drains from Aerith's face and body language. Her posture sags, she breaks eye contact, she looks sad. This is the image of someone who isn't happy to hear that Cloud's worried about her. Now, if she was into the whole ship wouldn't she be happier to hear that line from him? She's regretful and turns away again, using her body as a barrier to any possible intimacy.

I'm sure people disagree, so imma explain. If she'd turned her back that would be an outright rejection. She'd be fully closing herself off. By turning away, she's indicating the conversation isn't over, but her degree of attention on Cloud is less than if she'd face him head on. If she stayed facing him, then that builds intimacy since face to face is open body language which can have several interpretations – some of which I've mentioned before like confrontational when Cloud steps up to Rude. When it's between a couple, it's suggestive of building intimacy and trust.

And when Cloud takes a step towards Aerith, she steps away again, towards the lifestream in the distance. Not permitting the closing of distance is a sign she doesn't want to encourage intimacy with him. That she walks towards where the lifestream is means that's where her attention and focus is. Whether that's an overarching plot reason or from a “Zack is there” reason is up to your interpretation.

Another immortal line. Considering Aerith just stepped towards where we can see the lifestream and that she's taking up her priestess pose we can reasonably assume she's thinking of Zack, unless you're once again subscribing to the theory that she's meta!Aerith aware of her own death and speaking of that. In which case, yall need to make up your minds whether she's one or the other because you can't swap between the two when it suits you just to justify your arguments.

When Cloud says “I'll remember that” in response to Aerith's advice that “every moment matters” it definitely comes across as one of those character building life lessons that Cloud's had over the course of the game. He got one from Barret about how not everyone has a choice to run away, one from Marle about listening to others and caring and now he's got one from Aerith about making the time they have count. These are mentor moments.

But more importantly, look who Aerith's looking at when she says that line. It's not Cloud, not the lifestream. Us. The players. She is talking to us. This isn't just wisdom for Cloud, it's for us, too.

After a 9 second pause from Aerith, in which she looks at the ground, Cloud offers a suggestion of what she wants to say next. She seems very lost in thought during this time, and almost reluctant to speak. Considering she always seems to know what to say in any given situation, this is off. This very long pause is the longest she's been silent in the whole game. It's notable. She almost seems to be warring with herself as her eyes narrow and she subtly shifts from side to side.

I may well be wrong about the length of time she’s silent. It could be 7 seconds in a callback to the 7 seconds it took for Sephiroth to drop and kill her in OG.

I'm one of those who does subscribe to the whole OG!Aerith vs meta!Aerith theories – which I stick to throughout every scene involving her so don't even try and @ me and say I'm a liar – and to me, this looks like OG Aerith trying to assert dominance over the situation, while meta Aerith wants to refuse.

When Cloud speaks, Aerith looks grateful for the cut in. It pulls her out of that warring state, while he's trying to look cool and mature still lol (dork)

Okay, so that whole speech she gives about thanking him is definitely coming off like she's aware of things she shouldn't know yet. This may be what OG!Aerith was trying to prevent her from saying. This isn’t something that Cloud should know yet, after all.

After some physical humming and hawing, eyes downcast, then glancing away and we get a shot of her feet – remember all of this is intentional to build a story here – she looks up and we get this line that's making certain people freak out with joy.

Quick lesson on intonation.

Intonation is the rise and fall – the pitch – of how you say certain words. The way you say them gives them their meaning. You can say the same words in many different ways to convey different meanings and/or emotions.

I've previously focused on Aerith's choice of the word “can't” here because this is the key word in the phrase.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how certain people are interpreting this line to turn it into a positive. The word “can't” is synonymous with an impossibility. It means “there are specific reasons why this isn't possible.”

Aerith didn't say “Don't” as in “you shouldn't”. She said “can't” as in “not able to”. She is telling Cloud that he's not able to love her. The specific intonation on the word “can't” supports this evidence. If yall wanna examine it more closely then I suggest you turn the sound down slightly so it's actually harder to hear the whole sentence and see which words have more emphasis. Can't has specific emphasis, which wouldn't be there if she wasn't stressing the word.

As for her facial expression. I mean, this doesn't look like the earlier one where she's sad or regretful. This is matter of fact. She's telling him this as a kindness because he's not yet aware of the reasons that she is.

(Note: I didn't say which specific reasons because some of yall say it's her death and others say it's Tifa, so that's up to you. There's reasons, is my point).

So up until she said that, Cloud was actually looking at her. But this made him turn away in dismissal. Not with embarrassment. He's not caught out and flustered. He's SOLDIER!Cloud, remember? He's all front and super cool facade.

This isn't the first time a girl has thrown herself at him. Jessie did it too, only more ott. Cloud's used to brushing off girls and does it without effort.

I'm sure up to this point some people have been screaming about how biased I've been and unfair and this is so cloti (excuse me while I roll my eyes).

So, if I'm biased why am I about to point out that the above screen is real!Cloud popping in for a visit? This is him overriding the SOLDIER persona to question if Aerith might have a point. But not about her. About Tifa. Because within the previous few hours, Cloud and Tifa shared an intimate moment. And it wasn’t soldier Cloud who did that. It was real Cloud. Aerith is calling attention to real Cloud’s feelings for Tifa, which makes him look to the house where Tifa is sleeping. He gets soft eyed and starts to smile, but then seems to want to question himself, which we know isn’t a good idea. Real Cloud and Soldier Cloud aren’t ready to meet yet.

And while real!Cloud is busy debating with SOLDIER!Cloud about Aerith's words, she's approached completely silently – because, ykno, she's not actually there – and he's caught sight of her hand in his peripheral vision. The second she touches him he jerks back looking surprised. This wasn't a telegraphed move where he saw it coming from 10 feet away and chose to do nothing.

I also question that if he can feel her hand here then it's solid, but when he goes to grab her it's not? So, she chose to let him feel the first touch, but then rejected him grabbing her? Or is it more likely that having caught sight of her hand in his peripheral vision he didn't actually feel her touch his face then or the time after because Aerith's not there. There's no actual physical interaction between them.

This is pity. Not much else to say about it. Meta!Aerith knows Cloud's future and that by introducing these future concepts to him, she's causing confusion ahead of the time it should happen. She feels bad about that and probably about her OG behaviour that she had no control over thanks to the Whispers forcing her to go against her real nature.

Well, I was going to say that Cloud going to grab her wrist – not her hand – is just further proof of her intangible presence. She isn't someone he can hold onto. But having grabbed this screen it's clear he wouldn't have grabbed her wrist at all either. His hand is open and aimed at her forearm and already passing through her well before he tries to close it.

And the reason why goes back to the ghost thing. Cloud thought she wasn’t there in person, that she might be dead or it’s a dream, but then she touched him. So he wants to grab her the same way he did Jessie in the pillar, to try and keep her alive. But his hand goes through her and he’s left looking confused again.

“Do I get a say in all this?”

Well now. That's a bit different. I'm sure like everyone else we've all been convinced that Cloud said “Don't I get a say in this?” like he's arguing with Aerith's decision. That he's admitting he's already in love with her.

“Do I get a say in all this?” is a totally different kettle of fish.

Don't connotates a confrontational tone. It's argumentative. It's rejecting whatever previous statement was made.

Do is a question. It's inquisitive. Placid. Neutral. It's neither confirming, nor denying the previous statement. It's merely asking for more information.

Funny how those little word replacements some people use end up twisting the narrative.

Cloud’s not just speaking about Aerith’s most recent statement either. He’s talking about the whole conversation they just had. The possibility that she’s dead or dying and he doesn’t get any choice about it. This is a throwback to the OG theme of life and death and how the dying get to say goodbye and decide how to leave, while the living don’t and have to figure out how to move on from it afterwards.

Anyway, Cloud has his back to us, so we don't even know if that's coming from SOLDIER!Cloud or real!Cloud, so that's up for debate and I won't even bother since he's got his back to us and we can't see either way.

And then we've got the cool SOLDIER!Cloud (screen) telling Aerith he's gonna save her. We already know that Cloud does his best to sound cool and confident when talking to Aerith because he doesn't know how to be himself around her. This is the kind of line you'd expect to hear from him.

She replies, “If that's what you want.” which is also very non-specific. It's a neutral statement that leaves things up to Cloud. It could imply an answer to the previous question he asked, since the two do stand beside each other and make sense. However, the interjected “It's almost morning” line breaks this up and makes it less of an impactful statement from her. She's done her upmost to neutralise any romantic context from this scene.

Conclusion

If yall saw romance then okay, you must be right.

I sure af didn't. I saw a regretful Aerith telling Cloud things he shouldn't be aware of yet, feeling more regretful for confusing someone who's already suffering from mental illness and then making non-committal statements that neither reject or encourage his attention.

Maybe she's regretful for her own sake as well, knowing what she does about him and still doing this to push some future narrative only she's aware of, but I wouldn't say this is romantic. It's clearly some kind of goodbye from her. Cloud, for his part, looks confused and guarded through most of the scene. There's one moment when his real self peeks out to question Aerith's meaning, but then he's gone again. We can't say for any certainty that his question was asked by his true self or his SOLDIER persona and without visual context I won't speculate.

#final fantasy 7 remake spoilers #final fantasy 7 remake analysis #Chapter 14 resolution A #Cloti #Zerith #Tagging you guys cause you might find it interesting #Not gonna tag the other guys

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phanbliss · 6 years ago

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i'm asking out of a place of wanting to understand, so please don't assume i am accusing you or attacking you, but regarding a post you reblogged recently, it was an ask where templeofshame claimed that if dnp weren't together it would be kind of like "baiting" us but i really don't think that's fair? they haven't EVER said or pretended to be in a closeted relationship, only been friends that joke a bit about their occasionally romantic tendencies, i have friends who think me pt.1

this ask is long due to there being several messages, so i’m putting it under a cut. the post in question: x

me and my best friend are together when we’re really not. we’ve said so, but eventually just stopped denying the claim while occasionally joking about it. i think its unfair of us to act like they owe us something? they don’t owe us a “coming out” (i agree with op tho that coming out has issues of it own, but its the most relevant term) neither do they have to tell us if they aren’t together.

however we perceive their relationship is our business, and as long as we aren’t toxic about it pt. 2 then really we shouldn’t care about ppl calling us “silly shippers” cause shipping them isn’t weird or rude, i, myself, truly believe they are together, but i don’t think that they owe us anything. they are real people with their own complex lives that we may not understand, heck, that THEY may not understand and they are just living their truth. for whatever reason, they may feel that they don’t want to tell people that they’re in a relationship (if they are in one) pt. 3but neither do they feel the need to (and in my opinion, shouldn’t feel the need to) explain and clarify their status to us.

it isn’t in any way baiting or manipulation. if we decide to invest our lives and our time into writing fanfics and making art then that is our choice! they are obviously fine with it so long as it isn’t shoved in their faces, but they don’t owe us clarification, maybe i’m misunderstanding something, i just don’t think it’s fair to say that they are being manipulative pt.4simply by being themselves?

they are their own people with their own reasons for keeping private or not telling us. they have never pretended like phan is real, have even denied it in the past, never made merch or something that has catered to shippers specifically. they have simply let us be (even if dan was quite rude about it before, but i believe he has improved a lot over the years) and made some quips about it. they choose to share parts of their lives with us and however pt5 the phandom reacts to that is our “issue”.

in summary, i believe that it is unfair to say that if they aren’t together it means we have been baited and manipulated and “wasted our time” because i really don’t think that’s fair to the good times we have had while shipping them. they are real people that owe us nothing about their private lives and can hide or reveal as much or as little as they want. i do believe that some people DO “queerbait” irl, especially ytbrs, but dnp have never pt.6acted fake or overly romantic to seem like they’re in love, their bond, in my opinion is genuine, and whatever we read into that is valid, but it doesn’t mean that they owe us an explanation.

i think i should end this now, but before i go, know that i do NOT intend this to be a dig at anyone, just wanted to share my perspective and ask your opinion about what i’ve just shared. i just see ppl acting like dnp could qb us and it kind of makes me think. have a nice day, take care, peace out! end

ooof anon, i appreciate that you sent this to me, but i’m really not the right person for it! i’m not one of the smart people in this fandom, nor one of the cool ones, so discussing things with me over anon is not as fun and rewarding as sending an ask to one of the popular people haha. but i’ll reply with my thoughts anyway!

we’ve had discussions about this on IDB before and my opinion hasn’t changed since the last time i said anything on this subject.

TO BEGIN WITH: i in no way believe they are consciously encouraging the shipping to make money. they are two people in a long term relationship that navigate a difficult world of being queer, being popular and trying to stay private.

1) “me and my friend” - while i definitely appreciate and understand that, we have to try to not compare dnp to ourselves if we want to make a proper point. i could say that me and my friend x haven’t talked in 2 years but i still consider them a friend, which doesn’t mean that it’s the norm for everyone - same goes for the “me and my friend” arguments concerning dnp. i don’t mean you necessarily, i mean things i’ve seen over the years. “me and my friend always say i love you! we live together! we spend all our time together! we’re platonic!” - that’s awesome but it doesn’t mean anything about dnp

2) i don’t think @templeofshame acted like dnp owe us anything. i took it more as like at this point, dnp admitting to having been platonic this whole time (lol i’m laughing while typing this) would have been a form of queerbaiting. templeofshame never said they owe us a “coming out” or anything like that

3) you have to remember that their audience is largely queer. to a lot of the younger fans, they are some sort of role models and maybe even eye-openers when it comes to their [fans’] own sexuality. they are most likely aware of this and definitely accept it.

4) the biggest thing i guess i should explain is why i believe that them having been platonic this whole time would have been some form of queerbaiting and… and there is no way to put it while still being nice? so forgive me, this is my opinion and i’m not trying to start drama.

they DEFINITELY benefit off phan. they have since the start (or at least dan). back in their younger days, people didn’t really ship them as much as assume they were a couple, that’s how they behaved and most people would jump to that conclusion. when shit hit the fan (vday + general life stress) and dan started lashing out, shipping got real hard. and dnp could have left it there, could have left shipping as that elephant in the room that we’re not allowed to mention, but no

slowly, gradually, they went back to accepting shipping. they haven’t denied anything in years and in many ways they encourage it. and really, no one will make me believe that they - as in the joint brand of dan and phil - would be as popular as they are without the shipping. lots of people watch them for their chemistry and hear of them through phan. they themselves no longer shy away from it - see tatinof fanfic scenes, their fanfics in tabinof, all sorts of things i’m too tired to mention - lots of recent things from this year.

so yeah, i believe they are very aware of phan and accept it, and if they accepted it while being two bros in ~other relationships~ or ~perpetually single~ then yeah, i would feel it’s wrong. not because they said something outright but because 9+ years of certain behaviors are as good as admitting to it.

they are basically out at this point, both as not being straight and being a couple, and i’m happy they got there on their own terms.

bottomline - i firmly believe they’re together and all that is missing is an actual confirmation - which we don’t ‘need’ - but if they weren’t together, we’d be right to be upset by this point.

idk if this answered your ask but i’m really tired and as i said, i’m dumb so you’re better off asking someone cooler than me hah :)

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