#Gerry he just doesn't... I just don't... Know?

[mildcicada]

[transrevolutions]

okay hear me out. what if 'trevor herbert' is jonah magnus. what then.

all the tmagp-versions of tma characters we've seen can honestly, in my opinion, be feasible variations of their tma selves. yes, even gerry. he seems very different, but iirc in a qna it was stated that gerry's the sort of person who genuinely does believe in goodness and the like, it just got stamped out of him by growing up with mary and the fears. so in a universe where that wasn't the case, I can totally see him being cheerful and friendly.

trevor, on the other hand, feels fundamentally wrong. especially given his profession. all the tmagp-tma crossover characters (that we've met! I'm not counting the maybe-jon and maybe-martin because we don't even know if they're the same people!) have jobs that align with their tma selves. basira goes from being a cop to being a school administrator- both positions of authority/control. helen is still a swanky tory real estate agent. gerry is an artist, and it's mentioned he painted in tma as well. georgie does a podcast. gertrude has a mysterious past, and it's implied she was connected to the institute at some point.

but trevor goes from being a homeless monster hunter to.... a member of parliment who drives a bentley? there's no connection there. and he doesn't act like tma trevor in any way either! there's no dedication to hunting about him, even in the metaphorical sense. if anything, he "prefers a hands-off approach" as of episode 30. trevor herbert in tma was the polar opposite of that, one of the most 'hands on' characters in the series. but who else has a penchant for watching without interfering until something actually threatens his vision?

would it be too much of a stretch to posit that jonah, weakened from his institute's destruction, ends up posessing the first body he can get his hands on, steering this new alter ego towards a government position of authority, then to monitoring the OIAR, so similar yet so different from the institute he failed to preserve? what if, when he says gwendolyn bouchard has "quality", he's not just talking about her heritage? what if he's starting to look for his next mark?

anyways, I found an interesting little detail while rereading some transcripts. in the magnus protocol, the first mention of both (presumably) jonah magnus and trevor herbert, MP is in episode 27: driven. before that, they were not named, and trevor was referred to just as "the minister".

now that's a fun little coincidence as it is, but if we return to tma, we notice that trevor's first statement is in episode 10: vampire killer. and elias/jonah's first actual appearance (outside of jon referencing that he's his boss) is in episode 17: the boneturner's tale. 10 + 17 = 27.

WHICH COULD MEAN NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[traincat]

I know there's like 0 possibly of marvel ever letting Peter Parker officially be queer, but what about Johnny? Do you think it's possible that he could be confirmed as bi/pan at some point?

Johnny Storm exists in the weirdest canon sexuality grey area known to mankind. Is he constantly referred to as gay? Yeah. Is there evidence that several high profile Marvel creators think he's queer? Yes. Marjorie Liu confirmed that the intent in her run in Dark Wolverine was that there was a sexual relationship between him and Akihiro. Kurt Busiek retweeted an article I wrote that explicitly discussed the homosexual subtext of Johnny's character. Dan Slott reportedly wanted to write Johnny and Wyatt in a romantic relationship, which is believable if you look at the beginning of his run, but was told no. (Slott's written gay relationships before in Amazing Spider-Man, so I wouldn't find this so surprising.) And John Byrne wrote this:

(FF #251) John Byrne I desperately want to study you in a lab.

But is Johnny canonically anything but 100% straight? No, not officially. Marvel, the conglomerate, officially views Johnny as heterosexual, and if the Dan Slott thing is true even recently blocked an attempt at having Johnny come out. If this is true, it's most likely because of the new movie, because let's be honest, corporate Marvel does not care about Johnny Storm on the same level it cares about Spider-Man or the Punisher or Iron Man.

Because let's be honest. This goes deep. And it's been going on a long time. The above John Byrne panel is not the only example. There is a long-running thread of homophobic comments targeting Johnny running through 616 canon.

(Hulk vs Thing: Hard Knocks #3) "Light in the loafers" is slang for a gay man, for anyone who doesn't know.

(Dark Reign: Zodiac #2. I don't recommend reading this, by the way, not even if you're going deep down the Johnny Sexuality Well, but for the record Johnny, despite not being canonically gay, literally gets gaybashed in this comic.)

(FF #151) Does it get more blatant than a character named "Mahkizmo" referring to Johnny as "an effeminate"? Someone get me Gerry Conway on the phone, I need to know what he was thinking when he wrote this. (I know what Gerry Conway was thinking because Gerry Conway is a very good and very intentional writer.)

Then there's Ben's repeated teasing about Johnny's "crush" on Spider-Man, referring to them as "love boids" and so on. This is friendlier than the above comments, but then, if we assume Johnny is queer, Ben would know about it. He certainly knew what was going on with Johnny and Akihiro.

(Daken: Dark Wolverine #4) "Got what he came for, right?" Real double entendre here, since "what he came for" is both a weapon from Reed and, clearly, sex with Johnny.

The posing here is not subtle, even before you factor in that Marjorie Liu, who co-wrote this series along with Daniel Way, confirmed on social media that the relationship was meant to be read as sexual. (So you can probably add Way to the list of writers who think Johnny is queer, too.)

In fact, I'd say that Liu and Way depict the whole family as knowing about Johnny's sexuality and about the relationship.

(Daken: Dark Wolverine #4)

So if Johnny is in the closet, the way this issue frames it, he's only in the closet to the public. He's not in the closet to his family.

(Deadline #1) "All right, Storm, who were you with last night: Britney? Christina? Eminem?" in reference to Johnny getting caught "with a bottle in one hand and a blonde in another." So he's not doing a great job on that front, either.

Then there's Johnny's tendency, despite the perception of him as a womanizer, to look incredibly uncomfortable when he's kissed by a woman -- even a woman he purportedly has romantic interests in. Take, for example, the following panels:

(FF #562) He certainly is just standing there while Psionics, his one-time bad girl fling, kisses him and invites him to come see her again. Which he doesn't do, by the way. The next time he sees Psionics, she'll kill his close family friend Alyssa Moy right in front of him. Great!

(FF #259) Literally running away from Sharon Selleck. Now, we can say that he just wasn't attracted to her, which is true -- he was very ardently pursuing her roommate, Julie DeAngelo. Except.

(FF #263) That's certainly some kind of posture when she kisses him, and of course as soon as she kisses him, he's "over her."

There's more examples of this, too, where Johnny has a pre-existing connection with a woman only for him to completely freeze up or lean away from her when he's kissed, with no follow through on his part. (This is part of the reason I personally headcanon him as gay and not bi, but that's besides the point.) And it's a totally separate issue from the other longrunning thread of him being kissed as a form of assault. Which also happens. Like a lot. "Johnny Storm" and "consent issues" are basically synonymous at this point, which again is really interesting if we're looking at this from the perspective of Johnny and sexuality, since most of these incidents involve women as the perpetrators.

(Most. Not all. Dark Reign: Zodiac definitely implies some things, and I think it's interesting that Akihiro initiates his connection to the Fantastic Four by shooting Johnny through the thigh with an arrow.)

I've mentioned this before, but again, for a character who has the reputation that Johnny has developed, both in and out of universe, it is deeply bizarre that he does not have sex scenes. He doesn't have them. Peter Parker has sex scenes. Kinky sex scenes! There is zero doubt in my mind that that Peter Parker is attracted to women. I can't even show you Johnny Storm having vanilla missionary honeymoon lovemaking that fades to black. Whenever they want to show you he's had sex, it is always in the aftermath, and he is rarely having a great time about it. What's up with that, Marvel! I know, but do you!

Then there's Unstable Molecules: Fantastic Four, which exists in a metatextual area -- it's a fictionalized account of the "real people" who inspired the Fantastic Four, the story of four people rapidly barreling towards a disastrous dinner party that would be witnessed by two comic book creators. And it's Johnny is definitely queer.

(Unstable Molecules #3) "Johnny, it is the fiery night, and you are a holy flaming flower." The extras for Unstable Molecules even include a love poem written by the beatnik who calls him "a holy flaming flower" that is definitely supposed to be about Johnny.

So that's the grey area. You have all of this content that either implies or occasionally outright states that Johnny is not straight. But according to Marvel, the actual publisher and company, Johnny is straight. Personally, I don't like saying things are canon if they aren't explicitly 100% confirmed canon, but the wealth of evidence here is so substantial that I make an exception. It's just a matter of when Marvel the actual company is going to admit it.

(Fantastic Four: Marvel Snapshots #1)

[lightless-flame-official]

gerry keay (classic flavor):

skinny. not in a way most people notice off the bat, because he's quite tall and very good at looking big, but leitner hunting burns a lot of calories and he's been chronically underfed for most of his life

eye tattoos on each of his joints, placed there by supernatural means as a protective ward against other powers

his hair always looks like shit for several reasons, including but not limited to:

- he doesn't like to dye it when his mother is around, both because of the vulnerability of the position and because he doesn't like to be Perceived by her while doing anything he actually. ya know. enjoys. this means that it has a lot of time to fade and his roots grow out.

- if she's around too often for a stretch of time, he has to find a local business he hasn't already been banned from and rinse it out in one of their sinks. this leaves it looking understandably patchy and rushed.

- the dye he uses is cheap as hell -- having his own money is an occasional luxury which cannot be taken for granted.

- he just. generally doesn't take care of himself and his hair suffers overall as a result. he doesn't shower often enough and when he does he uses precisely one (1) type of soap. and it's like. if they have irish springs bar soaps in england then it's that and if they don't then it's the closest equivalent.

he isn't actually like. goth. as we would think of it.

black clothes don't show bloodstains and they made him feel safe edgy and dangerous as a teenager.

we're talking thrift store jeans purchased when he was 16 an never replaced. maybe some band tees. boots for marching into a den of hunt avatars.

the leather jacket is also secondhand and while yes he does feel very badass and cool in it it's also a practical piece. good for fighting. especially when the people you're fighting might have claws or want to set you on fire.

sewing needle piercings with visible scarring around them.

he just generally looks. kinda sick all the time? again, not something that usually registers because he's also good at being intimidating but if you're looking for it there's all kinds of evidence of chronic sleep deprivation and malnutrition. he looks unhealthy, concerning.

gerry keay (tmagp):

goth. like, real goth. like buying from thrift stores still but more often and having fun with it now.

we're talking fishnets. we're talking eyeliner. we're talking black lipstick. we're talking absurd and impractical jewelry. we're talking dabbles in lacy skirts and definitely owns a corset. and yes he still wears a leather jacket but exclusively because it feels cool and badass. he's goth babey!

no longer skinny. precise body type is whatever your heart tells you is true but three square meals agree with him and he's gained a very noticeable amount of weight.

the hair dye is still not professional, his roots grow in occasionally and it's still a bit patchy, because he's still doing it at home, but also. he's doing it at home. it's fun, and he has fun with it. the dye is better quality. gertrude helps him with touchups. black is still a favorite but he's dabbled in other colors, dark purples and greens and blues.

loves to be covered in stuff. when he's baking, he will intentionally smear flour on his black pants and make it look accidental, and when he paints he doesn't wash his hands. this is partially so he can see the evidence himself, and partially because he wants people to notice it and ask. he wants to say, "oops, i was baking earlier, i must've wiped my hands on my pants."

he still has shitty irresponsible piercings from when he was a teenager. the more recent ones are more professional.

his tattoos are pretty and useless. he designed most of them himself.

there's color in his face. sleeping gets a little easier every night.

[clownamoeba]

the magnus archives doodle dump... NO SPOILERS PLEASE 🙏 im only on ep45

includes... Breekon and Hope (as seen in MAG2) The Piper (MAG7) Gerry (as seen in MAG4 and MAG12) Clown Doll (as seen in MAG24) Michael (as seen in MAG26) Death (as seen in MAG29) ...and mild spoilers

warning! some things will definitely be inaccurate, as im only 1/4 through the series as i mentioned

MAG2's description of breekon and hope, the "red-faced deliverymen". i'd later learn they were "exactly how you'd expect them to look", so i kind of imagine they look like Mogens from Klaus. or at least one of them hypothetically would. at the time, while i knew their red faces were from exhaustion, i wanted to draw them with actual red faces. because it was cool! you may notice i drew them with subtle fish-like features in some places (particularly the mouths), which was because i assumed they were throwaway characters. and if they were, that'd imply they were more connected to the siren they delivered in the box, so...

MAG7, the piper. i hope i didn't phone it in too hard, because this one's my favourite episode so far. i can't draw the sides of peoples' heads when they're screaming, so one of the three heads looks a little stupid... to me, some of the wording in the episode implies that the Piper's tune is one we know of in real life- especially considering how the statement is in-universe written by a real guy, and heavily discusses another. and so i want to add to this that i strongly believe that the tune is the famous british-and-then-american military song, "Yankee Doodle". it dates to over 250 years ago, and there's a pretty iconic rendition of that song that primarily features a pipe instrument, too. spooked me a little when i realised how possible this was

gerry! not too much to say here, i guess. i don't know how common this is, but black gerry just kind of spoke to me. to my knowledge he's a pretty major player in the story, so i'm almost certain i've fucked up his design somehow... oh well. c'est la vie.

that stupid clown doll. i joked to my friends that it was doing that one ishowspeed face, and then i couldn't get it out of my head...

michael, another major player. had some advice from my friends for this one. couldn't tell you why, but him having mysterious little glasses really adds to his vibes for me. sorry that his little distortion form is so lazy. didn't really know what to do with it, lol

and last but most certainly not least, the monk version of death we saw. even though this guy isn't THE death (there doesn't seem to be 'a' death), the monk outfit is easily one of my favourite designs of a skeletal grim reaper. it adds a lot.

but thank you for reading all of this! or just looking at the doodles... i don't mind. the alt text descriptions of the Piper and Death feature copy pasted quotes from this series of fanmade transcripts. thank you for that.

... ...? oh, right. one more thing. there is a wasp's nest in my attic.

[daisyishedwig]

Okay okay okay okay

I need you all to listen very closely to the conversation between Sam and Celia after they leave Gerry and Gertrude's place. Because the whole time they're talking, both with Gerry and Gertrude and then just amongst themselves, the audio is consistent. A little muffled because it's likely being recorded through the phone in Sam's pocket, some general fuzz, but nothing distinct.

But then. Celia mentions Georgie. And we get a single little garble of interference, and then it's gone and we don't hear it again for the rest of the episode.

And I'm just saying, if I thought computers could gasp, that's certainly what I think that'd sound like.

The idea that Jon (who is the most likely one to be listening in on Sam/Celia's phone) is aware of Gerry, is aware of Gertrude, is aware of Sam's connection to the Magnus Institute and to Gerry, that he knows /all/ of that.

But he doesn't know that Georgie exists in this world. Or he doesn't know that Celia knows Georgie. That her mentioning Georgie throws him enough to garble the audio, is driving me absolutely insane. My baby boy hears her name and gasps because that's his /friend/!

[avatarofthearchives]

My interpretation of Jon regarding the Not! Sasha situation is that, on some level, he knew the entire time something had happened, but he purposefully looked away from it because didn't want to face the truth.

While it's said in canon that Jon trusts Sasha more than Tim and Martin and that's why he's willing to give her more passes, it's also worth noting that Jon's bar of trust is in hell. He says that he can't trust anyone multiple times, and the quote "I may not entirely trust my assistants but I won’t lose them," comes from a time frame where Jon is under the impression that Sasha is alive. By his own admission he doesn't entirely trust her, and yet he's willing to overlook things he'd try to exorcise Tim and Martin for.

And I don't think that's because Jon just randomly swings between being overly trusting and overly paranoid. Rather, I think he knew something had happened when Sasha came back without the tape recorder. Because think about it: Jon's character could be summed up by his thirst for knowledge. Yet, when Sasha tells him that information about Prentiss's attack was lost...he just accepts it. He doesn't question it. He doesn't look for the lost tapes. He doesn't even keep an eye on her.

Overall it seems like he acts really out of character, and I think that's because he is. For the first time in the series he doesn't WANT to see something. He doesn't want to know if something happened to Sasha in the evidence room, because if it did, it means he might have lost one of his assistants. And it's as Jon says himself: He won't lose them. Even if that means turning a blind eye.

So, yeah, I think Jon's attitude in Season 2 of "Sasha threw a knife at me today. I'm sure it's just because she's practicing her aim" was out of subconscious denial of the truth instead of blind trust. Especially because it would be consistent with one other knowledge Jon turns away from...which is Gerry's page. He burns it because he cares for the people around him more than knowledge itself when push comes to shove. And unfortunately in his case that's a great motivator of ignoring a monster.

[cornfieldsrambles]

I love Trevor and Julia so goddamn much, the way they're utilised in TMA season 3 is my actual favourite thing.

Like. Right smack in the middle of the Everything Wants To Kill Jonathan season, they just. bring up these two recorded statement givers from season 1 (they were both brought up maybe one (1) time each after their initial statement eps but you'd be forgiven if you fully forgot they existed).

And they honestly picked the perfect two, like you can't go wrong with "serial killer's daughter who lives in his shadow" and "homeless guy who has apparently been tracking and killing vampires his entire life. Also there are vampires in this universe."

(more t&j rambles under the cut - it is LONG lmao)

Which is its own thing, tbh - vampires are such a footnote in the grand scheme of tma that it's hilarious. They're not connected to anything, we don't meet any, no one else ever mentions them except Daisy like one time, I'm not even sure which entity they serve! The Hunt? Slaughter? Stranger, even? Fuck knows. Trevor Herbert sure doesn't. He doesn't even know what the fears are! He and Julia think they know what they're doing but they are so far removed from the actual Plot™️ despite having a literal Exposition Machine in their back pocket. The only problem of course being that the Exposition Machine hates both their guts.

Anyway yeah Jonny just took these two characters and slammed them into season 3 like "they're a found family now and became cross-country monster killers. This is a problem because now, technically, Jon is one of the monsters they like killing."

They straight up hijack the plot, which. It's so fun watching them storm in like they're such an intimidating force. They really think they're main antagonists. Scratch that, they think they're the main characters of their own show. Some supernatural-esque dark gritty monster of the week series. Yeah, sorry, that spinoff ain't happening.

They weren't even gunning for Jon specifically. They don't know who the Archivist is or why he's important. All they know is "eye guy bad". THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HE WAS IN AMERICA. Jon just had the Supremely Rotten Luck of walking into the vicinity of Julia Montork. I cannot get over it.

And honestly they're so weirdly endearing. The way they pass the story back and forth while giving their statement, the way it just devolves into banter by the end? Julia calling him "old man"? Come on, it's cute as hell. Meanwhile Jon's there like "yes I'm sure this is very nice but can you maybe untie me from this chair please"

oh and by the way. These two fucking C-tier villains just so happen to be in possession of the book containing GERARD FUCKING KEAY.

You know. Gerry Keay? The extremely plot relevant (and fan favourite) character that fills Jon and the listeners in on all that juicy exposition we didn't get from Leitner? The guy who's been teased and seemed to be involved in basically everything since season 1? Gertrude Robinson's protege? That Gerry Keay?

Yeah, they just. Have him.

They don't know why he's important, they just use him as a monster manual and he tells them as little as possible because he hates them. Also this is unrelated but at one point he refers to Trevor and Julia as the Van Helsings and I just adopted that as my go-to name for those two because I thought it was fun.

And then in season 4 they pick the Actual Worst Time to show up. Right at the height of the single most packed episode of the season, these two clowns break into the institute in the most melodramatic way possible:

Like who the fuck do they think they are.

AND THEN THEY JUST RUN STRAIGHT INTO NOT-SASHA. WHO IS ALSO INEXPLICABLY HERE.

They really thought they did something. They really thought they knew what they were getting into, the grizzled rogues taking down the monsters one kill at a time. They were marked by the Hunt - ironically they WERE becoming the same monsters they set out to kill. Exactly the same monster that killed them.

And then Trevor spends the last few months of his life running like prey from the thing that killed his surrogate daughter. Fuck, what a way to end it. TMA is so good at getting you attached to characters with barely any screentime or impact on the larger plot, and these two are my go-to example.

I really love Trevor and Julia is what I'm saying

[richeeduvie]

stopppp bring your daughter (and separation anxiety husband) to work day 🥰 she gets to come say hi to shiv and gerri and others before baby has a meeting with them !! baby keeps checking on roman cos being in waystar makes him feel panicky <3 they get to have lunch as a family !!!!

"Hi, Aunty Shiv."

"Hello, you."

Roman's trying to avoid Mattson as best as he can, if the Swede is even in the building. He keeps hold of Baby Jr's shoulder as she does shy waves to her aunty, Karolina, Gerri. Frank and Karl has most likely taken their forced retirement, but who knows.

Roman doesn't work here anymore, shares nothing of the company. Nothing that truly matters, anyway. Mattson can take his share and shove it up his dickhole.

But still, he makes sure to have the privilege of having privacy. They've taken to some poor fucker's office for lunch.

"...I guess I'll go elsewhere."

"Well, no. Not guess. The ghost of my CEO father thrives inside of me. Go elsewhere."

Baby Jr wants to say Hi, but she's so shy. So, she just hides behind Mommy, who puts a hand on Roman's lower back.

"All good, Rome?"

"Peachy. It smells like sauna and feels completely foreign to me. But it's all good."

Roman smiles at how the sandwich his daughter holds is about the size of her head. Baby kisses his cheek.

He bites hers.

"Daddy, Mommy not lunch. That's too silly, you have to eat proper."

The perfect, little girl puts her sandwich to Roman's chin. He bites down.

"You are so right. How did you know I don't endorse cannibalism?"

It's said with a mouthful of sandwich.

"Cause I have pretty brain. Like Mommy."

Roman turns to Baby.

"You are so right about everything, aren't you?"

[martinblackwoodhater]

You answered an anon about jongerrymartin some time ago, and it made me think about the ship for a moment.

First of all, i absolutely CANNOT picture them getting together. With jongerry it kind of makes sense? - you have jon meeting book-gerry and they seem to kinda get on, and you can muster up something based on that encounter like AUs itd. I mean, as scarce as their interactions are, you have a pretty solid foundation and you can just make up the rest as you go. But i can't imagine where martin would fit in that. I cannot imagine him just... stumbling upon gerry.

But let's put their imaginary first meeting aside for a moment. Both gerry and martin had a complicated and frankly unhealthy relationship with their mothers, and i've seen a lot of people (shippers) making their bond revolve around that. Which is nice! Woohoo parallels!

And yet the ship between jon, gerry and martin just does not make sense from a canon viewpoint. And by that i mean the characters' personalities makes it impossible to work out. Or, to be honest, just martin's personality. That man is insanely jealous of everyone that dares to be near jon, and i dont mean it in a "silly quirky" way.

If they ever were to become a throuple (like in a completely detached from the canon setting) i feel like they would get on fairly well at first, but if they were to start displaying affection to eachother in a different way than simply friendly, martin would immediately become jealous and then just take apart their relationship with gerry piece by piece until only him and jon are in the equation.

(Honestly that's more about season 5 martin. If it were the earlier seasons martin, he would probably do the opposite thing and slowly remove himself from the relationship, because "they don't need him anyway" and "he's just happy to br around and help" and "he wouldn't want to get in the way of jon's happiness" etc.)

This got kinda long and im sorry. My main point is, as usual, that i am upset by the mischaracterization/misunderstanding of martin that's so popularized by fanon. I honestly feel like i could like him! Maybe even relate to him in a way! But because of the way he's presented by fandom, upon hearing the name martin every tma fan goes "aw hes the cute gay one! The guy thats a big softie but has an unexpected dangerous side! Yess king stand up for yourself!! Don't let them treat you like shit!!" And dear lord it's so shallow. He's more than that. His actions have reasons, and they are not always "good" reasons either!! Like jon smashing the fucking table and freeing the notThem - nobody's saying that it was a smart move!! Let him make mistakes i beg of you!

As im typing this I realized that most people who do that are the same people who relate to him, and it struck me that perhaps they reduce and compress martin's character to just make him into the traits they see themselves as, (i mean: shy, people pleaser, bad-relationship-with-mother, likes tea, big crush on someone who doesn't notice him - you know, those traits that could apply to basically anybody and ESPECIALLY to insecure teenagers - the main demographic) and then they fill the rest with their own personality traits.

Imo in order to properly judge a character it's important to step aside for a moment and consider them from another POV.

I feel like ive done way too many "overly-long-rant-regarding-fanon-martin" asks and that im starting to repeat myself like a scratched CD. Im gonna have to cook up something about jon as well. AND his relationship with georgie.

people do seem to pick and choose what qualities they want to even think about when writing/observing martin in any way. obviously this is natural and makes sense with any character because people are going to focus most on what they're biased towards for a myriad of reasons, but it's CRAZY w martin fans ive noticed. which isn't necessarily a bad thing but also likeeee it does make for a less diverse experience, especially when most of the fans seem to focus on the same kinda things so some qualities get severely overlooked and this lowkey makes for a far less interesting character.

my point is that this is extra prevalent in shipping, especially with more like weird ships like this that are particularly unsupported in canon, and it's lead to somewhat of a weird like mass delusion almost ((obviously a hyperbole)) in terms of his character, where people are - as you said - pretty much just turning him almost into a self-insert. ive probably got more to say but not rn sorry im gonna go check if my waffles r done cooking

[poorlemons]

How does timeline work from your perspective? I mean Gerry was born in late 1980s, 2 years after his birth Eric blinds himself to leave MI (supposedly late 1980s - early 1990s), 5 years into marriage - couple of months after resignation - got killed and skinned by Mary. But he knew Michael. But Michael was employed as substitution to Fiona who was murdered at 2003. Besides he knew real Elias joined MI at 1991, but wasn't around when he was consumed by Jonah. We can certainly agree that Fiona was still alive on June 1972 from the statement 9720406 she registered.

Do you think it's the same as with Agnes's death, when we have a statement 0071803 which claims that she died fall 2006, but Gertrude requested her assistance in assassination of Emma after 2010? As Jack Barnabas is unreliable narrator and Agnes had to die later, as so we informed about date of Fiona's death by Jonathan, who supposedly got this information from official records which could be fascinated...

Anyways I sincerely crave your opinion on the matter.

The timeline in tma is so fucking fucked up I just make shit up sometimes. But anyways, I basically just disregard 2003 Fiona, it makes no sense and I'm not even going to put too much leg work into explaining it. Maybe it was a mistake in the records? Who knows I just know michael being hired in 2003 makes zero sense and I don't like the implications it has for michael OR Sarah carpenter because she comes after michael but then she'd have a very short existence as an assistant going by that timeline.

I one saw someone suggest Eric's 80's michael was a different michael but that's even worse. I'm 70% sure it was a joke but the horror of there being ANOTHER michael in tma Canon is too much to bear.

To me the timeline is something like: gertrude, Fiona and Emma are hired sometime in the 60s, I know it's implied that Eric is hired at the same time but for my purposes it makes more sense if the hiring was a little more staggered, i just like the feel of it more. Emma is fascinated by Fiona but hasn't learned to not play too rough with her food so Fiona lasts til like, mid 70s. In like, the early 70s Eric is hired, Emma is still busy with Fiona so she doesn't turn to Eric yet. Michael is hired whenever Fiona dies, so now it's Emma, Eric, and Michael. Emma latches onto young (probably just like, 21 or 22) Michael for her next idea. Eric gets involved with Mary probably early 80s. They all work together for a good decade or so before gerry spawns in and Eric pops out his eyes. Then it's just Emma and Michael for a bit, hiring for the Archives takes a while. Then like, early 90s Sarah is hired and then is a smooth sailing ship til the dubious 2008-2011(?) Time-frame of when Michael and Sarah dies. Pr sure it's a weird time frame on that one but I haven't checked, but honestly I'm OK with that being weird.

All this to say I refuse Michael being any younger than her 40s-50s at the very least. This entire timelime is constructed to reaffirm that belief

[sailing-on-a-puddle]

Fireflash/Trapped in the Sky comparison

Sooo ... these two are probably the closest in terms of TOS/TAG episodes. So I thought I'd do a comparison, and say which I thought was better on certain bits. Obviously my opinion :D

Fireflash itself: TOS was better

The Fireflash aircraft on TOS is pretty impressive. Not just the super glam interior but the exterior too. The TAG one looks like I made it out of plasticine. I like my plasticine models, but it doesn't have the style and intricacy of the Gerry Anderson models.

Length of episode: TAG was better

Trapped in the Sky was supposed to be 30 mins long (with adverts? Anderson experts will know) which is fairly similar to TAG, but then it was elongated to 50 mins. Because of that, parts of it feel very slow and the failed rescues don't really work as filler. CLOSE THE HATCH. Please.

On board action: TAG was better

Kayo is absolutely kicking butt in this episode. 'Spoiling your plans is the best part of my job' 'I didn't throw it' - YES! We seem to forget Tin-tin is on the aircraft and she does nothing. We never see her during actual rescue attempts.

The Hood: TAG is better (marginally)

The Hood is pretty terrifying in both really. These two showcase that he's quite a different character with different skills. He still talks to himself in both, and in both of these has an apparent motivation for his villainous actions. I just find him more scary somehow without the psychic powers.

The actual International Rescue Rescue: TOS was better

This may be controversial but for me the TAG rescue doesn't work as well as it could. We know those PODs can be remote controlled, why are Gordon and Alan in them? Then the actual landing is majorly problematic even with Virgil's Big Rope (not the Really Big Rope). The TOS one however, somehow without any CGI, manages to be great even with a very wobbly puppet Virgil. He is also The Right Virgil :-)

After the rescue: TOS was better

What are they doing in TAG? Why are they as big as the plane even taking into account perspective? Why is getting them home Virgil's problem with his imaginary Really Big Rope? It just rounds off a good Kayo episode with cringe for me. Meanwhile, the Tracy Island Piano tune is very nice and the doctor bit is quite clever.

Overall for the build up I prefer TAG, but then for the dramatic rescue bit and aftermath I prefer TOS. It's odd it works out like that because with CGI you'd think the dramatic bit could be improved. Then again the original Thunderbirds cost a LOT and TAG never got anywhere near the equivalent.

@thunderversary-rewatch-party

[hellomystraightlacedfriend]

The Osborns' 'Weird' Relationship: An Analysis

◇ Spectacular Spider-Man #146 - Gerry Conway/Sal Buscema ◇

Okay, so I know it was awhile ago that I said I might write an analysis of some of the emotional dysfunctional aspects of 616 Norman and Harry Osborn’s relationship, but I really struggled with the format and how I was going to present this.

One thing that I ended up having to do was throw out any speculation on the writers' intent. With comics, you have so many different writers - especially with a long ongoing, popular series like Spider-Man - that I decided to focus a lot more on the patterns I was picking up when I was reading.

But before I go any further:

CW: discussions of child abuse, mental illness, and suicidal ideation

Disclaimer: In this analysis, I am trying to provide an explanation for why Norman might behave the way he does. However, this explanation of Norman’s abuse is not meant to be a justification of his behaviour.

Also, before we start, you are absolutely allowed to disagree with this analysis! Every reader sees/interprets things a little differently, but I've seen other people pick up on the Osborns' relationship being well, strange, so I decided to examine that a little closer.

There were certain things I kept noticing in Norman and Harry's relationship that I found abnormal (you know, apart from Norman's extensive verbal abuse). Things like: Harry's really intense and misplaced loyalty to his father (that interfers with his other relationships.) The way in which Harry feels responsible for his father. The way Harry doesn’t have a strong identity outside of his father, and how his father doesn't allow (or think Harry needs) any emotional privacy. Also, just some of the ways Norman talks to his son don’t make it feel like a normal parent-child relationship.

In particular in this analysis, I did want to talk about emotional incest and enmeshment, which I am going to define now.

The psychological definition of emotional (or covert) incest is when a parent relies on their child for emotional support that they should be getting from another adult. They treat their child like a friend or partner, instead of well, a child.

And

An enmeshed family is one where there is a lack of boundaries, and often, the child isn't allowed to have an individual identity.

I think we see a lot of the after affects of this kind of emotional abuse in Harry as an adult, and while we don't see a whole lot of Harry and Norman's relationship dynamic when Harry is growing up, I do want to start from there, using what flash backs and other information we have.

Actually to give some background on why this kind of abuse occurred, I will go back a bit further than that and talk briefly about Norman’s childhood and his relationship with Harry’s mother.

Norman definitely didn't have a great childhood. His father was a bitter and abusive alcoholic who blamed all of his problems on other people, including his son. And while Norman's mother wasn't abusive towards him, she did fail to protect him. This betrayal from an early age from both his parents would have been a huge contributer to Norman's extensive trust issues (and his drive to be in control so he's not hurt again.)

Norman didn't get the emotional support and attention he needed while growing up, so that's really what he was seeking as a young adult, and he found it in Emily Lyman aka Harry's mother.

Now while I don’t think that Norman and Emily's relationship was perfect like he presents it to be, I do think from his point-of-view this was a great time in his life. He was finally out from under his father's thumb. This beautiful woman believed in him. They had their whole lives ahead of them. The possibilities were endless, and then - she died.

Or faked her death and left him because he was so controlling.

Either way, she was gone, and he still a young man was left to go on as a single father.

Interestingly, Norman both blames Harry for Emily's death and compares him to her. Much later in his life, when talking to Harry's grave, Norman says that he tried to be fair to Harry 'even though you were so much like your mother in so many ways.' In this scene, Norman is angry at Harry for dying and thus 'abandoning' him to be alone. And I think that's what Norman felt when Emily died too, this deep sense of abandonment.

◇ Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #1 - Roger Stern/Ron Frenz | Peter Parker: Spider-Man #44 - Paul Jenkins/Humberto Ramos ◇

(Later, it's revealed that Harry is not dead. Or maybe he is. I am NOT getting into the whole post-OMD-Harry-is-a-clone mess. For the sake of this analysis, they are the same person. They would have the same memories anyway.)

Now I am going to be piecing some things together and doing a bit of speculating. One thing that always stuck with me is that Harry keeps saying that his and Norman's relationship used to be different, that they used to be 'pals,' and then something changed. While I know a lot of people dismiss this, become Harry is delusional about his father at other points, I do think when Norman became the Green Goblin, there was a shift in their relationship dynamic, and Norman stopped opening up as much to his son.

I still absolutely think Norman was a neglectful and preoccupied father, but I also think that Norman was an emotionally needy person, and once Emily died, Norman (who was most likely extremely depressed and lacking a support system) tried to have Harry meet some of those needs. I say tried to, because Harry was just a little kid, a baby, and he wouldn’t be capable of doing that.

I think a lot about a panel from Spectacular Spider-Man #178 where Harry is talking to his own son Normie Osborn. Normie is a very young child/toddler. While Harry is talking to Normie, and Normie is watching TV, Harry starts hallucinating that his father is in the room. (Both Harry and his father have had psychotic episodes.)

Norman tells Harry that Normie should be listening to Harry, and when Harry says that Normie is just 'a little guy' and 'doesn't really understand all this,' the Norman Sr. hallucination becomes angry and says that Harry was just the same. That Harry was lost in his own head when he was young, and couldn’t hear when Norman talked to him.

◇ Spectacular Spider-Man #178 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema ◇

It's interesting the way Norman and Harry differ here. Harry wants his son Normie to be able to enjoy these early years and have this chance to be carefree. Whereas Norman doesn't seem to really understand the concept of childhood and childhood innocence.

I also find it interesting (because I'm obsessed with word choice) that both Norman and Harry use 'pals' to describe their relationship.

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #39 & #40 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. ◇

And just in general, Norman and Harry's relationship doesn't seem to fall into the typical parent-child relationship - where the parent takes care of the child and meets the child's emotional needs. Instead, it's more complicated and codependent.

Norman and Harry both view Norman as Harry’s provider and protector. Norman is abusive towards Harry, but he does show deep concern about Harry's safety and worries about what would happen if he (Norman) suddenly died - because he's afraid Harry wouldn't be able to fend for himself.

On the other hand, Norman really doesn't give Harry any tools to become independent or encourage a separate identity, and I think part of that is because subconsciously - as much as he keeps saying he wants Harry to be strong - Norman actually wants Harry to be dependent on him.

Like on one level Norman does want Harry to be strong and be able to think for himself, so that he can take over the company and continue the Osborn legacy (and he is angry at Harry and verbally punishes him for not living up to this). But on a more personal - and like I said before subconscious - level, I do think that Norman wants Harry to have to rely on him. Because Norman doesn't want Harry to be able to leave him. Because he doesn't want to be alone.

And that's the thing, I do think that Norman is also dependent on Harry.

Harry is the nurturer to his father's protector and provider. He cares for and worries about his father a lot, and as much as Norman does not like to be seen as weak, there are quite a few moments where we do see Norman be vulnerable around his son.

Why this happened is probably largely circumstantial. Norman is a very paranoid man, who constantly fears betrayal from those around him. Even with the other adults in Norman's life who he is 'close' to - like J Jonah Jameson and George Stacy, he is not open. He does not trust them. He thinks that people are conspiring against him. However, he doesn't see his young son as a threat, as someone who could turn against him and hurt him. And he pulls Harry into this emotional isolation with him by telling his son not to trust anyone but his family (anyone but Norman.)

◇Amazing Spider-Man #62 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Amazing Spider-Man #47 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Amazing Spider-Man #67 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Spectacular Spider-Man #200 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema◇

That puts Harry in a very difficult position, because he has deal with these adult concerns at such a young age, and he also can't fully open up to anyone else. This strain, along with Norman's exacting standards and scathing criticism, puts a lot of pressure of Harry.

However, Harry is used to being his father's confidant, and he becomes extremely anxious if his father shuts him out - or worse if he doesn't know where his father is. In a way, as much as Harry says that his father is strong and great, I think (at some level) Harry must also see his father as (emotionally) fragile.

This is especially noticeable in Amazing Spider-Man #121, where Harry is supposed to be resting because he has just overdosed, but he can't because he's so worried about how his father will react to possible financial ruin. He goes to him, tells his father that he doesn't need to worry about him, that he can take care of himself, that he's just worried about his father. He then proceeds to collapse in Norman's arms because he is not well.

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #40 - Stan Lee/John Romita || Amazing Spider-Man #61 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr., Don Heck || Amazing Spider-Man #63 - Stan Lee/Don Heck, John Romita || Amazing Spider-Man #121 - Gerry Conway/Gil Kane ◇

This collapse leads Norman to want to rid Peter Parker/Spider-Man from his life (by killing Peter), because he falsely blames Peter for Harry's drug overdose and also the collapse of Osborn Indistries.

Now Peter’s involvement in the Osborns' personal lives is interesting. Peter is the first person that Harry really opens up to outside of his father - when Harry breaks down and complains that his father had been very distant in the last few years. When Peter responds with the emotional support Harry had never gotten from Norman, Harry draws Peter further into his life by asking him to be his roommate. Harry’s demeanour toward Peter also becomes similar to his attitude towards his father, submissive and eager to please. (He even calls Peter 'sir' at one point when he's trying to get his attention - an address he uses towards his father.)

Peter, however, is so caught up in being Spider-Man that, like Norman, Peter often neglects his relationship with Harry. This leads Harry to be rather passive-aggressive. At one point, Harry offers to make Peter breakfast, but when he hears Peter locking his stuff up, he becomes insulted that Peter would think he would steal from him and storms off to see Norman instead.

This becomes an ongoing element, Harry being torn between Norman and Peter, and seeking love/support from both of them, but seemingly unable to get it.

Now I want to make it quite clear that Norman and Peter are not equally responsible here. Peter is Harry’s age and has troubles of his own. Norman should be acting as Harry’s father, but he really isn't, not emotionally anyway. He is meeting his son's material needs (to an excess), but he is emotionally neglecting his son while also emotionally burdening him with his own troubles. Plus Norman is constantly verbally berating Harry for failing to live up to his impossible expectations - leaving Harry feeling worthless and extremely depressed.

Harry takes drugs to cope with these negative feelings - first abusing prescription medication and then moving on to street drugs. There is even already a note of passive suicidal ideation here, as when Peter asks him how many pills he's taking, Harry's response is 'What’s the difference? Who counts?' (Amazing Spider-Man #97 - Stan Lee/Gil Kane.)

Now I refuse to believe that Harry doesn't understand that there's a possibility of overdose here: he's a chemistry (and business) major with a father who sells drugs for a living. He knows that it is a possibility. So, while he's not actively seeking to end his life, he also doesn't really seem to care if he lives or dies - as long as he can escape from his pain.

Harry does eventually overdose - and it's an overdose that leads Norman to go after Peter & also Peter’s girlfriend (and Harry's friend) Gwen. Norman blames all of Harry’s friends for his condition, but especially Peter. And Norman blames himself for failing to protect his son from them. He threatens to kill Gwen if Peter doesn't end his own life, and when Peter doesn't comply, Norman goes ahead with his threat - throwing Gwen Stacy off the George Washington Bridge. (Amazing Spider-Man #121 - Gerry Conway/Gil Kane.)

Peter (as Spider-Man) goes after Norman in revenge, and Norman ends up dying (albeit by his own glider and not Peter’s hand.) Harry eventually figures out that Peter is Spider-Man, and this leads him to think that his and Peter’s friendship wasn't real, that it was entirely a ruse on Peter’s part. That Peter was just getting close to Harry to close in on his father.

Harry ends up forgetting about Peter Parker’s secret identity after his first attack on Peter though, and so for years the threat of Harry's revenge remains dormant. However, even from 'beyond the grave' (Norman, um, kind of faked his death, but Harry didn’t know that) Norman still had a hold on Harry’s psyche.

One early warning sign of the return of Green Goblin might have been that Harry names his child both after his father and himself (Norman Harold Osborn), keeping their names (and identies) close together. Harry also tells young Normie how special a man his grandfather Norman Osborn was. Then Harry begins to hear his father's voice telling him to revenge his death, to kill Spider-Man/Peter Parker.

Harry goes back and forth on how he sees his father. At times, he is able to see his father as who he really was/is, a dangerous criminal who ruined his own life. However, at other points, he calls Norman 'wonderful' and 'the greatest man this world has ever known.' He claims that his father's spirit is in him fuelling all his efforts, and blames Peter for both Norman's and Gwen's deaths.

Of course, it would be hard for anyone to admit that their father killed one of their closest friends, however, I think with Harry it goes even beyond that. Because Harry doesn't have a solid identity outside of his father, he is unable to fully see himself and his father as two separate people. So, in his head, Harry can't admit that his father killed Gwen, because then he would also have to think that he killed Gwen - something I don't think that Harry can wrap his head around doing. It's easier then to blame someone else - Peter/Spider-Man.

When Harry does finally admit that Norman killed Gwen, he still absolutely thinks (pretty understandibly) that it was Peter who ended Norman's life. Because of this, Harry decides that both he and Peter would be better off dead - and that their deaths would protect their loved ones from further harm.

It is only an outpouring of unconditional love from Peter (something Harry had never really felt before) that sways Harry from ending Peter’s life. He carries Peter out of the building where he had set up a timed bomb, but then seemingly dies himself (from side effects of the serum he'd taken to make himself stronger.)

🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻

Break!

🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻

Okay, this is here because this is getting long, but I don’t want to make it a two-parter, but also sometimes people need to take a break and breathe, you know?

I will also be concentrating more on post One More Day Harry in this section, though referring back to earlier comics as well. I will also be talking more about sex and romantic relationships, and how Harry's focus on his father (and Norman seeing himself as the most important person in Harry’s life) complicates things.

The Dan Slott and Joe Kelly runs leading up to and during Dark Reign were the first Spider-Man comics I read, and these were the issues where I first got to see the Osborns' relationship on page. What really struck me then about the relationship was how Norman talks to Harry more like a separated spouse than his grown child: 'I need you,' 'the world could be ours,' 'come home,' 'your place is here, by my side.'

During this period, Harry is pulling away from his father and trying to be independent, and Norman does not like this at all. He mocks Harry’s business ventures, then bombs Harry’s place of business - almost killing Harry’s then girlfriend Lily Hollister in the process. When Harry goes to confront him, Norman says that girlfriends are replaceable and tries to win Harry back. This, however, does not work, and shortly following this, Harry goes no contact.

Norman will not accept this boundary, however, or any boundary really. He admitted earlier to recording and listening to all of Harry’s therapy sessions, and when Harry won't answer his calls or letters, Norman has people spy on his son and report to him on everything Harry is doing. He then gets himself invited to a wedding that Harry is attending.

This is when he tells Harry that he needs him, something that does visibly affect Harry. Peter steps in between Harry and Norman, and tells Norman 'and that's what therapy's for.'

This scene is interesting because Norman does not like admitting that he needs other people, but also because Peter doesn't consider this (entirely) as a ploy on Norman’s part. He does think that Norman is being honest about 'needing' Harry. He just thinks that the way Norman seeks support from his son is unhealthy.

There is also an 'us'-ness in the Norman-Harry relationship, that is more typical of couples. This along with how Harry is thrust into this nurturing role with Norman, makes him (at times) seem more like his father’s spouse than his son.

And when Harry and Norman do end up cutting ties, Harry even says: 'I was never your son.'

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #573 - Dan Slott /John Romita Jr. || Amazing Spider-Man #595 - Joe Kelly/Phil Jimenez || Amazing Spider-Man #598 || Writer: Joe Kelly/Artists: Paulo Siqueira & Marco Checchetto || Amazing Spider-Man #599 - Joe Kelly/Stephen Segovia, Marco Checchetto, Paulo Siqueira ◇

This relationship with his father - before the eventual break up - does also lead to problems in Harry’s romantic relationships.

Because Norman basically sees himself as the centre of the universe and because he is very possessive of the people around him, Harry grew up internalising this idea that he belongs to his father and that he should prioritise Norman above everything else.

And because of this, Harry does tend to elevate and choose his father over his other relationships. Like how when he was seeing Mary Jane Watson, that relationship ended because Harry wouldn’t unlock the door for her - choosing to be alone with his dead father's costume over being with her. His marriage with Liz also deteriorates as Harry obsesses over avenging his father's death and continuing the Osborn legacy.

Of note, in these moments Harry isn't exactly thinking clearly - there are definitely signs of psychic breaks, with Harry having delusions and hallucinations. Still, a huge part of Harry's psyche is consumed by his father - to the detriment of other aspects of his life.

Even after Harry sees Norman as a bad person (acknowledging that his father was Gwen's killer and knowing for sure that Norman has committed countless other heinous crime), Norman still has a hold over his son. Harry still holds out hope for winning his father's love and approval - and completely dismisses his then girlfriend Lily Hollister's encouragement and support. Instead focusing entirely on his father's criticisms.

◇Amazing Spider-Man #595 - Joe Kelly/Phil Jimenez || Amazing Spider-Man Family #4 - J.M. DeMatteis/Val Semeiks || Amazing Spider-Man #390 - J.M. DeMatteis/Mark Bagley◇

◇Amazing Spider-Man #126 - Gerry Conway/Ross Andru || Spectacular Spider-Man #189 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema || Amazing Spider-Man #569 - Dan Slott /John Romita Jr.◇

Another thing involving Lily Hollister - a rather controversial decision - was to have her be in sexual relationships with both Harry and Norman Osborn (with the timing being so close together that the paternity of her child was called into question.)

I actually don't think it's so surprising that Norman would go after someone his son was seeing. He is very self-centred and delusion enough to think that he could somehow get away with it.

Also, back in Amazing Spider-Man #96, there was this whole thing about Harry bringing along Norman to watch the girl he was then seeing - Mary Jane Watson - dance. It kind of comes across like Harry is trying to impress his father with how hot his 'girlfriend' is, and Norman is quite publicly enchanted by her.

There is something similar in the Raimi adaption where Harry Osborn wants Mary Jane Watson to dress in black (like Harry’s mother/Norman’s wife used to do) because he wants Norman to be impressed by her/find her attractive. Which people have pointed out is kind of weird/creepy.

Also kind of weird is just how much empathy Harry has towards Lily Hollister after she ditches him for his dad. Like yes, I think it's a coercive relationship, and Norman is much more to blame, but I still think most people would be a little more angry in this situation. And what Harry does say to Lily at the start of her and Norman's relationship is very interesting to me:

'He's an amazing man, Lily...I know, and he takes very special care of his "nice things"...until he doesn't.

I hope you see him for what he is before that happens...

Because when Norman Osborn is through with you, no one gets to have you.'

One) because it's really quite strange to call the father you suspect is sleeping with your ex-girlfriend 'an amazing man'

Two) because the way Harry is saying this makes it seems like it applies to both her and him. The 'I know' in particular stands out, because what he seems to be saying is 'I know exactly what you are feeling/going through right now.'

Which given that she is in 'romantic' relationship with his father certainly raises questions.

◇Amazing Spider-Man: Extra! #3 - Joe Kelly/Dale Eaglesham || Amazing Spider-Man #96 - Stan Lee/Gil Kane◇

In any case, I could probably write more, but this post is already more than long enough. I just find the dynamic between Norman & Harry Osborn fascinating because I don’t think it's one we see as often in fiction, and I love reading about dysfunctional families/relationships.

I also find post-OMD Harry really interesting, because I think it's even rarer to see a person, who was in a relationship like this, have to move on, fully cut ties, and figure out how to build a life for themselves without this person (who they had such codendency with.)

[screechingsandwichhologram]

one grievance that i have with tma fanartists (/lh) is that yall are NOT making gerry goth enough. if regular people who don't know shit about different alternative styles and subcultures can recognize him as goth then he HAS to be trad goth. or at least wear the makeup. most art seems more emo than goth. they are NOT the same.

also his hair is BADLY DYED. not just grown out. BADLY DYED. cmon give him patchy bits where the dye doesn't fully work. maybe he missed a spot in the back. make his hair dye worse plssss

[pynkhues]

https://www.tumblr.com/pynkhues/775096187617443840/httpswwwtumblrcompynkhues774795725379895296?source=share

All Dale experienced in season 3 was trauma, with no silver lining. Then one week later he is magically still a reporter. The whole Kay relationship dragged throughout the season while he couldn't kiss ONE man, did the rent boy even have a name? Do we just have to hope for the best and that he worked it out? Did ABC not allow it? Because that's the only logical explanation I can find, being the "80s" doesn't work when this show proved this only matters when it's convenient .

I think it was way too gratuitous. Also, no Gerry and only two episodes with Tim should have told me how this season was going to go. He never even talked about his feelings with Helen

I loved what they did to Helen and liked Noelene's arc. Just wish more thought and care was put into Dale's.

Mm, I mean, his arc was a straight line down in many respects, yes, but I don't think I'd say all he experienced was trauma at all? I think the show was pretty clear that he had a lot of love and compassion around him that he refused to allow himself access to due to his own self-loathing and internalised biphobia. Helen never wavered in her support of him, but Rob sided with him against Lindsey and tried to help him oust him, Tim was gentle with him when he really didn't have to be, and their connection to me felt maintained as a missed one as opposed to a lost one (the scene where Dale pulls Kay onto the dancefloor when everyone else leaves as Tim and Lee dance really moved me, and felt like this reminder of who he is really), Cheryl genuinely tried to help him, however briefly, and Nick, the sex worker (he did have a name!) offered him tenderness and refused to participate in his abuse of himself. Even Kay tried to help him at the end, and while I do think their relationship was underdeveloped, I also think it made sense for both of them.

The tragedy of his arc this season to me was that so much of what he was going through was self-inflicted. He's so desperate to wash out these parts of himself and be something he's not that he tries to empty himself of everything that he is, and falls apart when it doesn't work. People still think he's gay, they still think he's effeminate, fey, the one thing he's been desperately trying to hide, even more so after he was already clocked by Tim in s1, and Gerry in s2, and the fact that it's not just people with the same 'proclivities' that see it, but everyone, even when he's performing, it just breaks him.

In that sense, I think it made total sense he wasn't kissing Nick. He was trying to deny himself intimacy on every level - like you said, he wouldn't talk to Helen about any of it, couldn't really talk to his mum until that devastating scene in Helen's kitchen, could only talk to Kay about it when he was drunk, could barely talk to Tim about it either. He was paying for sex with men (a man) to make it a physical act instead of a romantic one, something to wrong that he just had to regularly get out of his system, and I think they made that really clear when Dale tried to get Nick to hit him.

I didn't think he was fine in Berlin at all either. I think Helen was giving him the chance to figure himself out on the road in the same way she got the opportunity to, and he took it. I agree that there should've been a beat between the scene with his mother and that scene of him reporting, but I get what they were aiming for. Dale wanted to be a newsreader his entire life, but briefly he was a pretty good journalist in s1 when he was on the road with Tim and the sound guy. If there's a space there for him to work and travel and live for himself in a place where people don't know him, maybe he'll figure himself out. Do we just have to hope for the best? Yeah! It's an open ending, and I think that makes sense for his character.

[blasphemous-lies-and-deceit]

"No!"

Michael's sharp cry had Gerry springing out of their bed in an instant, stumbling for only a second before following Michael's voice and charging into the loo. "What happened? What's wrong?" he gasped, clutching the door and frantically looking around for what was wrong. Michael didn't answer him, simply turned to look at him with wide watery eyes, and revealed exactly what was wrong. "Oh."

Michael had given himself bangs. And not very well.

"They look awful," Michael said mournfully, turning back to the mirror. "I thought they'd look cute but they look so bad. I fucked up."

"Oh, Michael, love," Gerry sighed, relief crashing over him and nearly taking him to his knees. Instead he stepped forward and came up behind Michael, wrapping his arms around his middle. He rose up on his tiptoes to set his chin on Michael's shoulder, examining his new fringe in the mirror. They were too short, that was clear, too blunt and not enough to frame his forehead. "What brought this on?"

"I don't know. Existential dread?" Michael shrugged unhappily, also staring at himself in the mirror. "I just wanted to try it, and now I've ruined them."

"First of all, it's hair. It'll grow back." Gerry paused to kiss Michael's cheek, amused even in the face of Michael's dramatics. "Second, you have no one to impress but me, and I'm stupidly in love with you already so it doesn't matter how you look." Michael sniffed, but tilted his head towards Gerry, leaning closer in his arms. "Third, you can't stop there. Your fringe just needs more work and it'll look a lot better, I promise."

"I'm never touching my hair with scissors again," Michael swore, pulling away from Gerry to turn and brace himself on the countertop. "I'm going right back to bed and not leaving until this grows out."

Gerry just shook his head, stepping forward into Michael's space. "You're not doing that, love, I'd miss you too much." He lifted up on his tiptoes again and brushed Michael's chopped hair back, kissing his forehead and taking a moment to bask in the love and affection he felt. "Let me fix them?"

Michael sighed, his breath brushing across Gerry's face, his eyes soft and heavy. "I suppose you can't make them worse," he grumbled, curling down towards Gerry like he was drawn in to him. Gerry couldn't stop himself from smiling up at him mischievously.

"I mean, I could buzz them off. Just‒" he made a noise like an electric razor and moved his hand like he was cutting a swath through Michael's hair. Michael's face fell in comical dismay. "Could give you an undercut while I'm at it."

Michael shook his head, a smile finally breaking onto his face. "I'm not brave enough for an undercut."

"But you're brave enough to cut your fringe without a second thought?" Gerry teased, reaching for the scissors next to the sink. "Listen, if you ever want an undercut, let me know. I'll shave the side of my head too. We'll match."

"That'll look better on one of us, and it's not me." Michael sunk down to sit on the lowered toilet lid, tilting his head towards Gerry and closing his eyes peacefully. Gerry carefully sectioned his long hair back, keeping several front pieces hanging in place. With careful snips, he trimmed them away, shorter and shorter until they framed Michael's face. He expanded on what Michael had done over his forehead, thinning it out and extending it to the sides, layering it so it didn't look quite so short. He wasn't an expert in hair cutting by any means, but he was an expert on Michael and the best way to flatter his beautiful face.

When he was done, Gerry genuinely did think Michael looked much better. He ran his fingers through Michael's bangs, fluffing them up to his satisfaction. "Okay, that's better." Michael immediately sprang to his feet and whirled to look in the mirror, his fidgety fingers coming up to arrange the strands himself, fussy and nervous until he finally pulled back with an incredulous look on his face.

"You did it," he breathed in wonder. "You fixed them."

"Told you, they just needed more work." Gerry ducked down to pick up the longer strands he had snipped, coiling the bright blonde lengths in his palm. He wondered if it would be weird to incorporate that into his art somehow, if Michael would be okay with that. He'd ask later. "Watch your step, I need to sweep up your trimmings."

"No, you're not." Michael's sudden words had Gerry's head shooting up in shock, but his surprise quickly melted away when he caught sight of Michael's expression. Oh. "I'm taking you right back to bed and absolutely ravishing you now," Michael proclaimed, stepping over the mess at his feet to get right into Gerry's space, intention obvious. "As thanks for fixing my hair."

"You don't have‒ I don't need‒" Gerry stumbled over his words, trying to express that he didn't fix Michael's hair simply so he could get sex from him. Michael just shook his head, no doubt reading his mind and figuring that out for himself.

"It's just an excuse, my love," he assured him, resting his long arms on Gerry's shoulders. "I am grateful to you for what you did, but I would want to fuck you regardless. Because I love you, and also you're standing shirtless in front of me. How could I not?"

Gerry blushed, charmed and mollified by Michael's words. His hands rose to settle on Michael's hips, pushing his shirt up to feel the warm skin underneath. Now that he knew it wasn't wholly reciprocal, he was very interested in Michael's offer. Of course he was. "I didn't really think that," he muttered, hoping to smooth things over before it became an issue. "I just wanted to make sure."

"Oh, Gerry." Michael ducked his head, kissing him so sweetly. "I love you. And I appreciate that. I really do." His hands slid from his shoulders down his back, past his hips to his thighs, gripping him tightly. Gerry got the hint and jumped up, caught in Michael's grip with his legs around his hips as the kiss continued, deepening as Michael carried them back into their room. "Now, can I make love to you?"

"Yes, please."