#Gerry he just doesn't... I just don't... Know?

[mildcicada]

[polysyndetonaddictsupportgroup]

For the questions for fic writers, 49 and 50 please?

49. What are you currently working on? Share a few lines if you’re up for it!

I've been bouncing back and forth between the last chapter of toy rosaries and the next chapter of nhthcth. Here's a few lines of toy rosaries:

Not two seconds later, they notice him gawping down at them like a fool. The man in the mask freezes. Claire jabs a finger at him like she’s tattling to the recess monitor. 

“He says this guy kidnapped a kid and we need him to tell us where he is.” 

Oh, so there’s where he kept the Devil. He hadn’t felt it in some time. But it’s right there, next to the pit in his chest. It seems comfortable as it finds its way up his pulse. 

“I’ve got a pair of pliers,” says Jack, jerking his head back from where he came. “If that’ll help.”

50. Answer any question of your choice, or talk about anything you want to talk about!

Let's do this one: 17. What highly specific AU do you want to read or write even though you might be the only person to appreciate it?

Okay so I have one for TMA and one for Marvel.

TMA: Danny, Jon, and Gerry Buzzfeed Unsolved AU. Jon runs into Agnes Montague while at Oxford, and it changes things. He goes on the run from the Web, picks up an amnesiac man he semi-accidentally rescued from some fucked up circus freaks, starts running even faster. They find a kind goth who joins them in their scooby adventures, because Jon is HIGHLY susceptible to serial killers and Gerry is kind enough to help him escape being bookified. They end up starting a ghost hunting YouTube channel, Ghost Hunt--not to be confused with Ghost Hunt UK, who hates them on a profound level--to cover up their monster hunting supernatural shenanigans. It gains immense popularity--because of Jon's skepticism about the existence of supernatural.

Marvel: the idea is that there are many Peter Parker's in the Multiverse, and the Collector just wants the one that no one would miss. A very lonely version of Peter gets nabbed right when he's starting off his Spider-Man career, before anyone even knows the name, by a Collector who's decided he's the centerpiece of his collection. This one is so dramatic. There's TRAUMA. There's SPACE. There's a GLADIATOR ARENA. There's MIND GAMES. the REVENGERS are there. And, Yes, I found a way for the Frank Castle's dead family to be there too. This is yet another one of my defridging the castle family stories. I am obsessed with this AU and it is so ridiculously niche. If anyone wants to ever read a space odyssey featuring Peter Parker and the Punisher's dead family, by fucking god, i have you covered.

[overbearingstruggles]

Deep into Roman/Tabitha tags on a Friday night help

[transrevolutions]

okay hear me out. what if 'trevor herbert' is jonah magnus. what then.

all the tmagp-versions of tma characters we've seen can honestly, in my opinion, be feasible variations of their tma selves. yes, even gerry. he seems very different, but iirc in a qna it was stated that gerry's the sort of person who genuinely does believe in goodness and the like, it just got stamped out of him by growing up with mary and the fears. so in a universe where that wasn't the case, I can totally see him being cheerful and friendly.

trevor, on the other hand, feels fundamentally wrong. especially given his profession. all the tmagp-tma crossover characters (that we've met! I'm not counting the maybe-jon and maybe-martin because we don't even know if they're the same people!) have jobs that align with their tma selves. basira goes from being a cop to being a school administrator- both positions of authority/control. helen is still a swanky tory real estate agent. gerry is an artist, and it's mentioned he painted in tma as well. georgie does a podcast. gertrude has a mysterious past, and it's implied she was connected to the institute at some point.

but trevor goes from being a homeless monster hunter to.... a member of parliment who drives a bentley? there's no connection there. and he doesn't act like tma trevor in any way either! there's no dedication to hunting about him, even in the metaphorical sense. if anything, he "prefers a hands-off approach" as of episode 30. trevor herbert in tma was the polar opposite of that, one of the most 'hands on' characters in the series. but who else has a penchant for watching without interfering until something actually threatens his vision?

would it be too much of a stretch to posit that jonah, weakened from his institute's destruction, ends up posessing the first body he can get his hands on, steering this new alter ego towards a government position of authority, then to monitoring the OIAR, so similar yet so different from the institute he failed to preserve? what if, when he says gwendolyn bouchard has "quality", he's not just talking about her heritage? what if he's starting to look for his next mark?

anyways, I found an interesting little detail while rereading some transcripts. in the magnus protocol, the first mention of both (presumably) jonah magnus and trevor herbert, MP is in episode 27: driven. before that, they were not named, and trevor was referred to just as "the minister".

now that's a fun little coincidence as it is, but if we return to tma, we notice that trevor's first statement is in episode 10: vampire killer. and elias/jonah's first actual appearance (outside of jon referencing that he's his boss) is in episode 17: the boneturner's tale. 10 + 17 = 27.

WHICH COULD MEAN NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lightless-flame-official]

gerry keay (classic flavor):

skinny. not in a way most people notice off the bat, because he's quite tall and very good at looking big, but leitner hunting burns a lot of calories and he's been chronically underfed for most of his life

eye tattoos on each of his joints, placed there by supernatural means as a protective ward against other powers

his hair always looks like shit for several reasons, including but not limited to:

- he doesn't like to dye it when his mother is around, both because of the vulnerability of the position and because he doesn't like to be Perceived by her while doing anything he actually. ya know. enjoys. this means that it has a lot of time to fade and his roots grow out.

- if she's around too often for a stretch of time, he has to find a local business he hasn't already been banned from and rinse it out in one of their sinks. this leaves it looking understandably patchy and rushed.

- the dye he uses is cheap as hell -- having his own money is an occasional luxury which cannot be taken for granted.

- he just. generally doesn't take care of himself and his hair suffers overall as a result. he doesn't shower often enough and when he does he uses precisely one (1) type of soap. and it's like. if they have irish springs bar soaps in england then it's that and if they don't then it's the closest equivalent.

he isn't actually like. goth. as we would think of it.

black clothes don't show bloodstains and they made him feel safe edgy and dangerous as a teenager.

we're talking thrift store jeans purchased when he was 16 an never replaced. maybe some band tees. boots for marching into a den of hunt avatars.

the leather jacket is also secondhand and while yes he does feel very badass and cool in it it's also a practical piece. good for fighting. especially when the people you're fighting might have claws or want to set you on fire.

sewing needle piercings with visible scarring around them.

he just generally looks. kinda sick all the time? again, not something that usually registers because he's also good at being intimidating but if you're looking for it there's all kinds of evidence of chronic sleep deprivation and malnutrition. he looks unhealthy, concerning.

gerry keay (tmagp):

goth. like, real goth. like buying from thrift stores still but more often and having fun with it now.

we're talking fishnets. we're talking eyeliner. we're talking black lipstick. we're talking absurd and impractical jewelry. we're talking dabbles in lacy skirts and definitely owns a corset. and yes he still wears a leather jacket but exclusively because it feels cool and badass. he's goth babey!

no longer skinny. precise body type is whatever your heart tells you is true but three square meals agree with him and he's gained a very noticeable amount of weight.

the hair dye is still not professional, his roots grow in occasionally and it's still a bit patchy, because he's still doing it at home, but also. he's doing it at home. it's fun, and he has fun with it. the dye is better quality. gertrude helps him with touchups. black is still a favorite but he's dabbled in other colors, dark purples and greens and blues.

loves to be covered in stuff. when he's baking, he will intentionally smear flour on his black pants and make it look accidental, and when he paints he doesn't wash his hands. this is partially so he can see the evidence himself, and partially because he wants people to notice it and ask. he wants to say, "oops, i was baking earlier, i must've wiped my hands on my pants."

he still has shitty irresponsible piercings from when he was a teenager. the more recent ones are more professional.

his tattoos are pretty and useless. he designed most of them himself.

there's color in his face. sleeping gets a little easier every night.

[daisyishedwig]

Okay okay okay okay

I need you all to listen very closely to the conversation between Sam and Celia after they leave Gerry and Gertrude's place. Because the whole time they're talking, both with Gerry and Gertrude and then just amongst themselves, the audio is consistent. A little muffled because it's likely being recorded through the phone in Sam's pocket, some general fuzz, but nothing distinct.

But then. Celia mentions Georgie. And we get a single little garble of interference, and then it's gone and we don't hear it again for the rest of the episode.

And I'm just saying, if I thought computers could gasp, that's certainly what I think that'd sound like.

The idea that Jon (who is the most likely one to be listening in on Sam/Celia's phone) is aware of Gerry, is aware of Gertrude, is aware of Sam's connection to the Magnus Institute and to Gerry, that he knows /all/ of that.

But he doesn't know that Georgie exists in this world. Or he doesn't know that Celia knows Georgie. That her mentioning Georgie throws him enough to garble the audio, is driving me absolutely insane. My baby boy hears her name and gasps because that's his /friend/!

[hellomystraightlacedfriend]

The Osborns' 'Weird' Relationship: An Analysis

◇ Spectacular Spider-Man #146 - Gerry Conway/Sal Buscema ◇

Okay, so I know it was awhile ago that I said I might write an analysis of some of the emotional dysfunctional aspects of 616 Norman and Harry Osborn’s relationship, but I really struggled with the format and how I was going to present this.

One thing that I ended up having to do was throw out any speculation on the writers' intent. With comics, you have so many different writers - especially with a long ongoing, popular series like Spider-Man - that I decided to focus a lot more on the patterns I was picking up when I was reading.

But before I go any further:

CW: discussions of child abuse, mental illness, and suicidal ideation

Disclaimer: In this analysis, I am trying to provide an explanation for why Norman might behave the way he does. However, this explanation of Norman’s abuse is not meant to be a justification of his behaviour.

Also, before we start, you are absolutely allowed to disagree with this analysis! Every reader sees/interprets things a little differently, but I've seen other people pick up on the Osborns' relationship being well, strange, so I decided to examine that a little closer.

There were certain things I kept noticing in Norman and Harry's relationship that I found abnormal (you know, apart from Norman's extensive verbal abuse). Things like: Harry's really intense and misplaced loyalty to his father (that interfers with his other relationships.) The way in which Harry feels responsible for his father. The way Harry doesn’t have a strong identity outside of his father, and how his father doesn't allow (or think Harry needs) any emotional privacy. Also, just some of the ways Norman talks to his son don’t make it feel like a normal parent-child relationship.

In particular in this analysis, I did want to talk about emotional incest and enmeshment, which I am going to define now.

The psychological definition of emotional (or covert) incest is when a parent relies on their child for emotional support that they should be getting from another adult. They treat their child like a friend or partner, instead of well, a child.

And

An enmeshed family is one where there is a lack of boundaries, and often, the child isn't allowed to have an individual identity.

I think we see a lot of the after affects of this kind of emotional abuse in Harry as an adult, and while we don't see a whole lot of Harry and Norman's relationship dynamic when Harry is growing up, I do want to start from there, using what flash backs and other information we have.

Actually to give some background on why this kind of abuse occurred, I will go back a bit further than that and talk briefly about Norman’s childhood and his relationship with Harry’s mother.

Norman definitely didn't have a great childhood. His father was a bitter and abusive alcoholic who blamed all of his problems on other people, including his son. And while Norman's mother wasn't abusive towards him, she did fail to protect him. This betrayal from an early age from both his parents would have been a huge contributer to Norman's extensive trust issues (and his drive to be in control so he's not hurt again.)

Norman didn't get the emotional support and attention he needed while growing up, so that's really what he was seeking as a young adult, and he found it in Emily Lyman aka Harry's mother.

Now while I don’t think that Norman and Emily's relationship was perfect like he presents it to be, I do think from his point-of-view this was a great time in his life. He was finally out from under his father's thumb. This beautiful woman believed in him. They had their whole lives ahead of them. The possibilities were endless, and then - she died.

Or faked her death and left him because he was so controlling.

Either way, she was gone, and he still a young man was left to go on as a single father.

Interestingly, Norman both blames Harry for Emily's death and compares him to her. Much later in his life, when talking to Harry's grave, Norman says that he tried to be fair to Harry 'even though you were so much like your mother in so many ways.' In this scene, Norman is angry at Harry for dying and thus 'abandoning' him to be alone. And I think that's what Norman felt when Emily died too, this deep sense of abandonment.

◇ Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #1 - Roger Stern/Ron Frenz | Peter Parker: Spider-Man #44 - Paul Jenkins/Humberto Ramos ◇

(Later, it's revealed that Harry is not dead. Or maybe he is. I am NOT getting into the whole post-OMD-Harry-is-a-clone mess. For the sake of this analysis, they are the same person. They would have the same memories anyway.)

Now I am going to be piecing some things together and doing a bit of speculating. One thing that always stuck with me is that Harry keeps saying that his and Norman's relationship used to be different, that they used to be 'pals,' and then something changed. While I know a lot of people dismiss this, become Harry is delusional about his father at other points, I do think when Norman became the Green Goblin, there was a shift in their relationship dynamic, and Norman stopped opening up as much to his son.

I still absolutely think Norman was a neglectful and preoccupied father, but I also think that Norman was an emotionally needy person, and once Emily died, Norman (who was most likely extremely depressed and lacking a support system) tried to have Harry meet some of those needs. I say tried to, because Harry was just a little kid, a baby, and he wouldn’t be capable of doing that.

I think a lot about a panel from Spectacular Spider-Man #178 where Harry is talking to his own son Normie Osborn. Normie is a very young child/toddler. While Harry is talking to Normie, and Normie is watching TV, Harry starts hallucinating that his father is in the room. (Both Harry and his father have had psychotic episodes.)

Norman tells Harry that Normie should be listening to Harry, and when Harry says that Normie is just 'a little guy' and 'doesn't really understand all this,' the Norman Sr. hallucination becomes angry and says that Harry was just the same. That Harry was lost in his own head when he was young, and couldn’t hear when Norman talked to him.

◇ Spectacular Spider-Man #178 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema ◇

It's interesting the way Norman and Harry differ here. Harry wants his son Normie to be able to enjoy these early years and have this chance to be carefree. Whereas Norman doesn't seem to really understand the concept of childhood and childhood innocence.

I also find it interesting (because I'm obsessed with word choice) that both Norman and Harry use 'pals' to describe their relationship.

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #39 & #40 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. ◇

And just in general, Norman and Harry's relationship doesn't seem to fall into the typical parent-child relationship - where the parent takes care of the child and meets the child's emotional needs. Instead, it's more complicated and codependent.

Norman and Harry both view Norman as Harry’s provider and protector. Norman is abusive towards Harry, but he does show deep concern about Harry's safety and worries about what would happen if he (Norman) suddenly died - because he's afraid Harry wouldn't be able to fend for himself.

On the other hand, Norman really doesn't give Harry any tools to become independent or encourage a separate identity, and I think part of that is because subconsciously - as much as he keeps saying he wants Harry to be strong - Norman actually wants Harry to be dependent on him.

Like on one level Norman does want Harry to be strong and be able to think for himself, so that he can take over the company and continue the Osborn legacy (and he is angry at Harry and verbally punishes him for not living up to this). But on a more personal - and like I said before subconscious - level, I do think that Norman wants Harry to have to rely on him. Because Norman doesn't want Harry to be able to leave him. Because he doesn't want to be alone.

And that's the thing, I do think that Norman is also dependent on Harry.

Harry is the nurturer to his father's protector and provider. He cares for and worries about his father a lot, and as much as Norman does not like to be seen as weak, there are quite a few moments where we do see Norman be vulnerable around his son.

Why this happened is probably largely circumstantial. Norman is a very paranoid man, who constantly fears betrayal from those around him. Even with the other adults in Norman's life who he is 'close' to - like J Jonah Jameson and George Stacy, he is not open. He does not trust them. He thinks that people are conspiring against him. However, he doesn't see his young son as a threat, as someone who could turn against him and hurt him. And he pulls Harry into this emotional isolation with him by telling his son not to trust anyone but his family (anyone but Norman.)

◇Amazing Spider-Man #62 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Amazing Spider-Man #47 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Amazing Spider-Man #67 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Spectacular Spider-Man #200 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema◇

That puts Harry in a very difficult position, because he has deal with these adult concerns at such a young age, and he also can't fully open up to anyone else. This strain, along with Norman's exacting standards and scathing criticism, puts a lot of pressure of Harry.

However, Harry is used to being his father's confidant, and he becomes extremely anxious if his father shuts him out - or worse if he doesn't know where his father is. In a way, as much as Harry says that his father is strong and great, I think (at some level) Harry must also see his father as (emotionally) fragile.

This is especially noticeable in Amazing Spider-Man #121, where Harry is supposed to be resting because he has just overdosed, but he can't because he's so worried about how his father will react to possible financial ruin. He goes to him, tells his father that he doesn't need to worry about him, that he can take care of himself, that he's just worried about his father. He then proceeds to collapse in Norman's arms because he is not well.

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #40 - Stan Lee/John Romita || Amazing Spider-Man #61 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr., Don Heck || Amazing Spider-Man #63 - Stan Lee/Don Heck, John Romita || Amazing Spider-Man #121 - Gerry Conway/Gil Kane ◇

This collapse leads Norman to want to rid Peter Parker/Spider-Man from his life (by killing Peter), because he falsely blames Peter for Harry's drug overdose and also the collapse of Osborn Indistries.

Now Peter’s involvement in the Osborns' personal lives is interesting. Peter is the first person that Harry really opens up to outside of his father - when Harry breaks down and complains that his father had been very distant in the last few years. When Peter responds with the emotional support Harry had never gotten from Norman, Harry draws Peter further into his life by asking him to be his roommate. Harry’s demeanour toward Peter also becomes similar to his attitude towards his father, submissive and eager to please. (He even calls Peter 'sir' at one point when he's trying to get his attention - an address he uses towards his father.)

Peter, however, is so caught up in being Spider-Man that, like Norman, Peter often neglects his relationship with Harry. This leads Harry to be rather passive-aggressive. At one point, Harry offers to make Peter breakfast, but when he hears Peter locking his stuff up, he becomes insulted that Peter would think he would steal from him and storms off to see Norman instead.

This becomes an ongoing element, Harry being torn between Norman and Peter, and seeking love/support from both of them, but seemingly unable to get it.

Now I want to make it quite clear that Norman and Peter are not equally responsible here. Peter is Harry’s age and has troubles of his own. Norman should be acting as Harry’s father, but he really isn't, not emotionally anyway. He is meeting his son's material needs (to an excess), but he is emotionally neglecting his son while also emotionally burdening him with his own troubles. Plus Norman is constantly verbally berating Harry for failing to live up to his impossible expectations - leaving Harry feeling worthless and extremely depressed.

Harry takes drugs to cope with these negative feelings - first abusing prescription medication and then moving on to street drugs. There is even already a note of passive suicidal ideation here, as when Peter asks him how many pills he's taking, Harry's response is 'What’s the difference? Who counts?' (Amazing Spider-Man #97 - Stan Lee/Gil Kane.)

Now I refuse to believe that Harry doesn't understand that there's a possibility of overdose here: he's a chemistry (and business) major with a father who sells drugs for a living. He knows that it is a possibility. So, while he's not actively seeking to end his life, he also doesn't really seem to care if he lives or dies - as long as he can escape from his pain.

Harry does eventually overdose - and it's an overdose that leads Norman to go after Peter & also Peter’s girlfriend (and Harry's friend) Gwen. Norman blames all of Harry’s friends for his condition, but especially Peter. And Norman blames himself for failing to protect his son from them. He threatens to kill Gwen if Peter doesn't end his own life, and when Peter doesn't comply, Norman goes ahead with his threat - throwing Gwen Stacy off the George Washington Bridge. (Amazing Spider-Man #121 - Gerry Conway/Gil Kane.)

Peter (as Spider-Man) goes after Norman in revenge, and Norman ends up dying (albeit by his own glider and not Peter’s hand.) Harry eventually figures out that Peter is Spider-Man, and this leads him to think that his and Peter’s friendship wasn't real, that it was entirely a ruse on Peter’s part. That Peter was just getting close to Harry to close in on his father.

Harry ends up forgetting about Peter Parker’s secret identity after his first attack on Peter though, and so for years the threat of Harry's revenge remains dormant. However, even from 'beyond the grave' (Norman, um, kind of faked his death, but Harry didn’t know that) Norman still had a hold on Harry’s psyche.

One early warning sign of the return of Green Goblin might have been that Harry names his child both after his father and himself (Norman Harold Osborn), keeping their names (and identies) close together. Harry also tells young Normie how special a man his grandfather Norman Osborn was. Then Harry begins to hear his father's voice telling him to revenge his death, to kill Spider-Man/Peter Parker.

Harry goes back and forth on how he sees his father. At times, he is able to see his father as who he really was/is, a dangerous criminal who ruined his own life. However, at other points, he calls Norman 'wonderful' and 'the greatest man this world has ever known.' He claims that his father's spirit is in him fuelling all his efforts, and blames Peter for both Norman's and Gwen's deaths.

Of course, it would be hard for anyone to admit that their father killed one of their closest friends, however, I think with Harry it goes even beyond that. Because Harry doesn't have a solid identity outside of his father, he is unable to fully see himself and his father as two separate people. So, in his head, Harry can't admit that his father killed Gwen, because then he would also have to think that he killed Gwen - something I don't think that Harry can wrap his head around doing. It's easier then to blame someone else - Peter/Spider-Man.

When Harry does finally admit that Norman killed Gwen, he still absolutely thinks (pretty understandibly) that it was Peter who ended Norman's life. Because of this, Harry decides that both he and Peter would be better off dead - and that their deaths would protect their loved ones from further harm.

It is only an outpouring of unconditional love from Peter (something Harry had never really felt before) that sways Harry from ending Peter’s life. He carries Peter out of the building where he had set up a timed bomb, but then seemingly dies himself (from side effects of the serum he'd taken to make himself stronger.)

🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻

Break!

🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷����

Okay, this is here because this is getting long, but I don’t want to make it a two-parter, but also sometimes people need to take a break and breathe, you know?

I will also be concentrating more on post One More Day Harry in this section, though referring back to earlier comics as well. I will also be talking more about sex and romantic relationships, and how Harry's focus on his father (and Norman seeing himself as the most important person in Harry’s life) complicates things.

The Dan Slott and Joe Kelly runs leading up to and during Dark Reign were the first Spider-Man comics I read, and these were the issues where I first got to see the Osborns' relationship on page. What really struck me then about the relationship was how Norman talks to Harry more like a separated spouse than his grown child: 'I need you,' 'the world could be ours,' 'come home,' 'your place is here, by my side.'

During this period, Harry is pulling away from his father and trying to be independent, and Norman does not like this at all. He mocks Harry’s business ventures, then bombs Harry’s place of business - almost killing Harry’s then girlfriend Lily Hollister in the process. When Harry goes to confront him, Norman says that girlfriends are replaceable and tries to win Harry back. This, however, does not work, and shortly following this, Harry goes no contact.

Norman will not accept this boundary, however, or any boundary really. He admitted earlier to recording and listening to all of Harry’s therapy sessions, and when Harry won't answer his calls or letters, Norman has people spy on his son and report to him on everything Harry is doing. He then gets himself invited to a wedding that Harry is attending.

This is when he tells Harry that he needs him, something that does visibly affect Harry. Peter steps in between Harry and Norman, and tells Norman 'and that's what therapy's for.'

This scene is interesting because Norman does not like admitting that he needs other people, but also because Peter doesn't consider this (entirely) as a ploy on Norman’s part. He does think that Norman is being honest about 'needing' Harry. He just thinks that the way Norman seeks support from his son is unhealthy.

There is also an 'us'-ness in the Norman-Harry relationship, that is more typical of couples. This along with how Harry is thrust into this nurturing role with Norman, makes him (at times) seem more like his father’s spouse than his son.

And when Harry and Norman do end up cutting ties, Harry even says: 'I was never your son.'

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #573 - Dan Slott /John Romita Jr. || Amazing Spider-Man #595 - Joe Kelly/Phil Jimenez || Amazing Spider-Man #598 || Writer: Joe Kelly/Artists: Paulo Siqueira & Marco Checchetto || Amazing Spider-Man #599 - Joe Kelly/Stephen Segovia, Marco Checchetto, Paulo Siqueira ◇

This relationship with his father - before the eventual break up - does also lead to problems in Harry’s romantic relationships.

Because Norman basically sees himself as the centre of the universe and because he is very possessive of the people around him, Harry grew up internalising this idea that he belongs to his father and that he should prioritise Norman above everything else.

And because of this, Harry does tend to elevate and choose his father over his other relationships. Like how when he was seeing Mary Jane Watson, that relationship ended because Harry wouldn’t unlock the door for her - choosing to be alone with his dead father's costume over being with her. His marriage with Liz also deteriorates as Harry obsesses over avenging his father's death and continuing the Osborn legacy.

Of note, in these moments Harry isn't exactly thinking clearly - there are definitely signs of psychic breaks, with Harry having delusions and hallucinations. Still, a huge part of Harry's psyche is consumed by his father - to the detriment of other aspects of his life.

Even after Harry sees Norman as a bad person (acknowledging that his father was Gwen's killer and knowing for sure that Norman has committed countless other heinous crime), Norman still has a hold over his son. Harry still holds out hope for winning his father's love and approval - and completely dismisses his then girlfriend Lily Hollister's encouragement and support. Instead focusing entirely on his father's criticisms.

◇Amazing Spider-Man #595 - Joe Kelly/Phil Jimenez || Amazing Spider-Man Family #4 - J.M. DeMatteis/Val Semeiks || Amazing Spider-Man #390 - J.M. DeMatteis/Mark Bagley◇

◇Amazing Spider-Man #126 - Gerry Conway/Ross Andru || Spectacular Spider-Man #189 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema || Amazing Spider-Man #569 - Dan Slott /John Romita Jr.◇

Another thing involving Lily Hollister - a rather controversial decision - was to have her be in sexual relationships with both Harry and Norman Osborn (with the timing being so close together that the paternity of her child was called into question.)

I actually don't think it's so surprising that Norman would go after someone his son was seeing. He is very self-centred and delusion enough to think that he could somehow get away with it.

Also, back in Amazing Spider-Man #96, there was this whole thing about Harry bringing along Norman to watch the girl he was then seeing - Mary Jane Watson - dance. It kind of comes across like Harry is trying to impress his father with how hot his 'girlfriend' is, and Norman is quite publicly enchanted by her.

There is something similar in the Raimi adaption where Harry Osborn wants Mary Jane Watson to dress in black (like Harry’s mother/Norman’s wife used to do) because he wants Norman to be impressed by her/find her attractive. Which people have pointed out is kind of weird/creepy.

Also kind of weird is just how much empathy Harry has towards Lily Hollister after she ditches him for his dad. Like yes, I think it's a coercive relationship, and Norman is much more to blame, but I still think most people would be a little more angry in this situation. And what Harry does say to Lily at the start of her and Norman's relationship is very interesting to me:

'He's an amazing man, Lily...I know, and he takes very special care of his "nice things"...until he doesn't.

I hope you see him for what he is before that happens...

Because when Norman Osborn is through with you, no one gets to have you.'

One) because it's really quite strange to call the father you suspect is sleeping with your ex-girlfriend 'an amazing man'

Two) because the way Harry is saying this makes it seems like it applies to both her and him. The 'I know' in particular stands out, because what he seems to be saying is 'I know exactly what you are feeling/going through right now.'

Which given that she is in 'romantic' relationship with his father certainly raises questions.

◇Amazing Spider-Man: Extra! #3 - Joe Kelly/Dale Eaglesham || Amazing Spider-Man #96 - Stan Lee/Gil Kane◇

In any case, I could probably write more, but this post is already more than long enough. I just find the dynamic between Norman & Harry Osborn fascinating because I don’t think it's one we see as often in fiction, and I love reading about dysfunctional families/relationships.

I also find post-OMD Harry really interesting, because I think it's even rarer to see a person, who was in a relationship like this, have to move on, fully cut ties, and figure out how to build a life for themselves without this person (who they had such codendency with.)

[screechingsandwichhologram]

one grievance that i have with tma fanartists (/lh) is that yall are NOT making gerry goth enough. if regular people who don't know shit about different alternative styles and subcultures can recognize him as goth then he HAS to be trad goth. or at least wear the makeup. most art seems more emo than goth. they are NOT the same.

also his hair is BADLY DYED. not just grown out. BADLY DYED. cmon give him patchy bits where the dye doesn't fully work. maybe he missed a spot in the back. make his hair dye worse plssss

[klm-zoflorr]

Let's talk about GERARD KEAY in the superheroes AU because of course we are.

So, Gerry!! First of all, he's a sort of middle of the sides vigilante. Not really a villain, not really a hero. Certainly not part of any group or government team or Syndicate.

I wanted to give him something kind of special, kind of different. His role in OG TMA is kind of different than any other avatars after all, with him roaming around burning books and helping people, ish (when he's not hitting them with bricks).

So, when I think of that I think: healing. And I don't really have a lot of people (or anyone really?) who does healing already but reasonably you do need a certain amount of them or else everyone dies. Well, except most supes have some form of healing factor, but anyhows.

So, back to Gerry. Just healing is kind of a boring power, so how about this: he can take on himself whatever injury you have. He can split it, of course, get 50% of your mortal wound on his own body and you keep 50%, saving both of you. It's an horribly self-sacrificial power, I think it has great potential for angst, and it's so Gerry imo. The thing is he has kind of an healing factor of his own, he heals faster, so taking your injuries for himself is the smart move in every situation technically. And you know you just know he'll do it. Still, the pain. My poor lil goth babe.

Oh, and yeah, if he takes on too many injuries at once he will die. Duh.

Now, the thing is I'm thinking that's not his whole power. The deal with him is something like, absorbtion. Of pain, as we said, but also I imagine of some thoughts, the history of some objects. Wiki says it's called clairsentience. This, and the healing, only works with physical touch. His ability to see the past of some objects is variable, it doesn't always work, it's hard to grasp on relevant bits, and it requires lots of focus, so it's not super reliable either. But, he can also read books without opening them, just by touching them. Because of his whole deal with books in canon. Still, at least he's got something to do when he's not saving people, it's nice, he's got a hobby. I imagine he could be some kind of detective if he wanted to.

And now, we're jumping onto the things that's the most interesting about Gerard:

He has PARENTS!!!

And the thing is, superpowers are very genetic. Which allows me to involve another of my great interests into this silly AU, as in, genetics and how they evolve and mix and and and... So, stay tuned for part two. This is about to get great.

[richeeduvie]

stopppp bring your daughter (and separation anxiety husband) to work day 🥰 she gets to come say hi to shiv and gerri and others before baby has a meeting with them !! baby keeps checking on roman cos being in waystar makes him feel panicky <3 they get to have lunch as a family !!!!

"Hi, Aunty Shiv."

"Hello, you."

Roman's trying to avoid Mattson as best as he can, if the Swede is even in the building. He keeps hold of Baby Jr's shoulder as she does shy waves to her aunty, Karolina, Gerri. Frank and Karl has most likely taken their forced retirement, but who knows.

Roman doesn't work here anymore, shares nothing of the company. Nothing that truly matters, anyway. Mattson can take his share and shove it up his dickhole.

But still, he makes sure to have the privilege of having privacy. They've taken to some poor fucker's office for lunch.

"...I guess I'll go elsewhere."

"Well, no. Not guess. The ghost of my CEO father thrives inside of me. Go elsewhere."

Baby Jr wants to say Hi, but she's so shy. So, she just hides behind Mommy, who puts a hand on Roman's lower back.

"All good, Rome?"

"Peachy. It smells like sauna and feels completely foreign to me. But it's all good."

Roman smiles at how the sandwich his daughter holds is about the size of her head. Baby kisses his cheek.

He bites hers.

"Daddy, Mommy not lunch. That's too silly, you have to eat proper."

The perfect, little girl puts her sandwich to Roman's chin. He bites down.

"You are so right. How did you know I don't endorse cannibalism?"

It's said with a mouthful of sandwich.

"Cause I have pretty brain. Like Mommy."

Roman turns to Baby.

"You are so right about everything, aren't you?"

[hughiecampbelle]

Succession Preference: Handmade Presents From S/O

Requested: Preference: How the Siblings react to their S.O giving them a handmade gift? (maybe a bouquet of flowers they thoughtfully picked out at a florist themselves, baked goods, a coffee/tea mug they decorated or a homemade meal?) i hope this sounds good!! ♡ - anon

A/N: This is so cute my love!!!! Thank you for requesting!!! I really hope you like it!!! Feedback is always appreciated!!! 💜💜💜

Connor appreciates your home cooked meals to no end. He thanks you forever. It doesn't matter if it took hours or thirty minutes, Connor won't let you live it down. He brags to his siblings all the time about how thoughtful and caring and considerate you are. You try to shrug it off like it's nothing, but he won't have that. Seriously. The only time he ever got anything home cooked was when he was a little kid, maybe once a year if his mother made him eggs or a grilled cheese. You go above and beyond when you cook. You never mind, you love sharing it with him. He compliments everything, making you laugh. Food is how you show your love. Sometimes, when you have the time, you make extra and send it with him to give to his brothers and sister. They love it, too. It's like they've never eaten before. They're all full of compliments and it makes them like you even more, which doesn't hurt either.

Kendall loves when you bake anything, but especially when you bake something he loves. You've been doing this since you were dating, but now that you're married it's become a rare occurrence. With work and life you don't always have the time. When you do, you like to send him to the office with everyone's favorites. Logan's blueberry muffins, Gerri's lemon squares, Karl's cinnamon rolls. You make extras of Kendall's favorites so he can have them at home and at work, surprising him when he gets home and the Tupperware is empty. It makes him feel so loved, so appreciated. He's a menace in the kitchen, always wanting to taste the raw batter and lick the icing. When you do it, it means you really thought about him, what he likes, what makes him happy. Not many people have done that in his life. But you? You make time for him and his happiness and that is priceless. It reminds him that he is capable of being loved.

Shiv isn't sure what to say. It's perfect. A bouquet of all her favorite flowers and colors in a vase she didn't even know either of you owned. Next to it is a little card with her name wishing her a good day. It sits on her office desk, just waiting for her. No one had ever done anything like this for her. Not her family, not Tom. She wasn't even sure he knew any one of her favorite flowers, and yet you had them all. You didn't sign the card, but you didn't have to. Tears well up in her eyes, but she's quick to blink them away. It's beautiful. She doesn't want to touch it or move it out of fear that petals might fall off. Once word spreads that you got specialized flowers sent to the office, the jokes start flowing in. She doesn't care what anyone has to say about this, especially her father and brothers. She feels so loved and seen, the most she's ever felt in her life. When she gets home she talks lightly of it, thanking you, but you can see the smile she's trying to hide. This small act means the world to her.

Roman is shocked. He doesn't know what to say. You start to feel insecure, like this wasn't something he'd like let along love. Under the ribbon and wrapping paper is a handmade mug with the date you officially became a couple. It was a little misshapen, but other than that it was perfect. You'd picked out the perfect color palette, too. All his favorite colors. No one had ever done anything like this for him before. No one has ever thought about him so thoughtfully. Roman holds out his hands, careful, scared he's going to break it. He looks it over a few times and holds it close before realizing who he's supposed to be. This fucking thing, it's, it's- thank you. That's the last thing he says about it. You catch him using it almost every day, holding it with both hands, hand washing it. He truly loves it. So much. It's his most prized possession. He never says anything about it again, though you catch him going through every cupboard looking for it, mumbling to himself. It's right in front of you, Rome. He breathes a huge sigh of relief. If he lost it or broke it he's not sure what he'd do.

[broareweabouttoviberightnow]

I think shiv might get a lot more undue hate then her siblings necessarily because of the fact that she is in a relationship with another main character. we can excuse kendall's treatment of rava and Roman's many many relational fuckups bc they aren't really main characters (even to a certian extent gerri). we don't see the multi levels on which they are affected emotionally like we do with Tom bc he IS a main character. so when shiv hurts him we KNOW how Tom will feel and it hurts us more as the audience. so naturally we want to dislike shiv for her actions but I think it's important that we don't disregard that in some sense her brothers do the same thing. just bc we don't see all the dirt and filth and hurt doesn't mean that they didn't do it too.

[soggy-hemlock]

spoilers for tmagp

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so I'm listening back through what we've got so far and in ep 8 we get this lovely conversation with confirmation that Gerry is alive and well living with Gertrude who refers to him as her grandson, they're having a lovely time.

This part specifically really speaks to me that Gertrude is very protective of Gerry and doesn't want him involved in any more institute shenanigans. Whether Gerry doesn't remember anything because nothing noteworthy happened or because something really bad happened and he's repressing could be debated, but more interesting to me is the two mentions of books so close to each other.

Mentioning the books could 100% just be a fun reference for archives fans, as i don't think there have been any Leitner's (or whether Leitner even made a collection in this dimension), but we know that this universe's magnus institute was doing testing involving children, and with artifacts such as the dice from ep 9.

basically what I'm saying is were they getting kids to read cursed books? did they find a kid with dysphoria and hand them the boneturners tale to see what happened?

not sure where i was going with this but aaaaa books

[deathsbestgirl]

after reading this post by @randomfoggytiger and a whole mess of @carefulfears words forever rattling around my brain — i just need to talk about unruhe.

i tweeted a simple thought, that isn't really so simple at all. unruhe, to me, is about scully learning a lesson mulder intrinsically knows.

i think scully lays it out in her final voiceover as she writes her report after being kidnapped and nearly lobotomized. she spent her time with gerry trying to keep him talking. she has to take the time to understand this man to have a chance of escaping with all her faculties. scully asks him about his sister and his father, who mulder had questioned him about earlier. as mulder was putting together a profile, he said the man was either really tall or wanted to be — and this little piece of information let scully connect the dots that she was speaking to their suspect. gerry, on stilts. (in the interrogation, scully is angry & forceful — as a doctor and as a woman. mulder is more curious.)

so in her report, she's recording her musings about her experience. and it's something she dismissed earlier:

(unrelated to this post, but this scene always reminds me of their final scene in leonard betts. the disconnect between them, mulder's confusion but acquiescence.)

scully's voiceover:

in the end, scully knows that understanding gerry saved her life. it gave her the time so mulder could get there and intervene. and not just understand, but empathize. something mulder is able to do with just about everyone. even the worst criminals. in beyond the sea, it makes him stubbornly disbelieve boggs. here, mulder ends up shooting & killing gerry. he understood gerry believed he was helping these women, because he couldn't accept what happened to his sister. mulder doesn't over-identify this time. but i think scully's intimate insight into mulder allowed her to look into gerry. (edit: and i don't really mean samantha, though it's part of it. mainly mean the way his mind works. she hates gerry but she tucked away everything mulder said about him & his analysis.)

one of my favorite things about scully is the way she values mulder's mind & empathy. something i think she believes she isn't capable of. she tends to talk about relying on his strength, but she also depends on his empathy so much. when she was in this situation, that's what she drew on. scully rarely has empathy for men committing violent crimes against women. she knows the world is full of predators, as she once told karen kosseff in irresistible. it's a comfort to her to have a hand in bringing these men to justice.

after mulder kills gerry & releases her, scully takes one moment to look back at him before leaving. after this near death incident, scully takes the time to read gerry's diary. like she wants to understand him more. "for truly to pursue monsters, we must understand them. we must venture into their minds." lesson learned, and new fear unlocked: "only in doing so, do we risk letting them venture into ours?"

i actually think this was a silent fear lurking in irresistible. scully's horror at the case was layered. yes, it was the violence against women & the haunting of her own abduction, but also that donnie pfaster would kill women to "scavenge from the dead." she's a pathologist, she understands the curiosity. but she does it to bring victims' justice, to put away predators, to try to make the world a safer place.

over time, i think scully adopts mulder's desire to believe in people. a lot of the series is about scully being radicalized, more and more. to the point of paranoia and immediate distrust of anyone who isn't mulder. but she still goes off with csm in en ami, needing to take the chance he's telling the truth despite knowing he is a liar and responsible for the most reprehensible crimes. she still leans on skinner, doggett, reyes, the lone gunmen. she tries desperately to save cassandra spender. she goes to diana fowley when there's no other option, hoping there's a shred of decency in her, believing the woman really does love mulder. so many moments. the ways mulder changes her, helps her, gives her strength & courage to face her fears. (something about scully killing donnie pfaster feels like a culmination of this — and in the reverse, mulder doesn't kill donnie pfaster. the flip side of scully's lessons?)

kae pointed out to me the reverse here is true too. mulder learns a lesson scully already knew intrinsically. but a post for another night maybe.

all of this, in my mind, deeply intertwined with this post (aka required reading <3)

[suttttton]

Oh gosh, so i just read your jonelias fic, the soulmate name one where Jon has Jonah magnus on his arm and he's all lonely. Boy did this entirely rewrite my brain actually. So i thought i'd ask, do you pretty please have some crumbs of how you think the story could wrap up? Like would elias try to woo jon? Would jon refuse him because, jonah magnus? Do you think the gang would find out about the whole body hopping thing at the same time as in canon or before, because jonah just drops the ball?

Also, maybe i just have piss poor reading comprehension (i kind of do tbh) but why did jon stop talking to the portraits after leitner's death? Did he just go like, oh that's creepy elias might be watching actually. Also i'm wondering what the tim&jon argument was about... Oh, them being trapped here because of jonah magnus himself? I guess that would explain it. Generally any tidbits of information you'll be willing to share, i want to hear it all i love this fic so much it's so good.

Would Elias in this au be more gentle and less willing to throw jon at every horror ever? Or is it sad toxic yaoi?

Sorry for rambling uwu ahah

(For anyone who doesn't know, this is the fic in question.)

I'm so sorry it's taken me 60+ business days to respond to you! This ask inspired me to write a little bit past the ending, which took some time, and then I got my job at puppy kindergarten and completely forgot about until.

UNTIL just now when I found it in my drafts, SO part of that is at the end of this answer under the cut.

To answer your other questions: Jon stops talking to the portraits because he finds out that Jonah Magnus was a Bad Person. Jon has been imagining Jonah as a character something like Gerry, burning the Leitner books and protecting people. After he talks to Leitner, he knows that Jonah was,,,,,,,,,,,, not that.

As for Tim and Jon's argument, I think during that s3 era of canon, they get into a lot of fights that basically boil down to "Tim is very angry that they're trapped here and Sasha is dead and Danny is dead, and Jon is his only available target." And in this world they have the added twist that Jon has been metaphysically assigned to The Evil Guy Who Started It All, which,,,,, does not help.

Thanks for your ask! I really like this story and it's been really fun thinking about it further.

EPILOGUISH:

The moment hangs suspended, Jon's eyes on the floor, Elias' locked on his own name scribed on Jon's skinny wrist like an accusation. His head spins with a rush of emotion, nothing he is prepared for, nothing he ever expected to feel again.

Then Jon's gaze flickers to his wrist, registers the alien colour, and his eyes widen and he jerks his hand away, shattering the silence. Jon cradles his wrist like it hurts, staring at it with his mouth slightly open.

Elias braces himself for Jon's gaze to come back to him, to look into his grey eyes and realize that they are far too old for his face, for him to make the connection. A moment passes, then another, and Jon just stares at his wrist, one of the immutable columns of his life suddenly upended.

Elias skims his mind, curious, and he has to stifle the urge to laugh.

Jon is thinking, with a racing mania that borders on panic, about ghosts.

Elias feels an enormous rush of tenderness towards him.

"I don't understand," Jon says finally, quietly. More to himself than to Elias. "This--this can't--"

Elias decides to twist the knife. "Perhaps our founder is pleased that you've aligned yourself with his god."

That gets Jon's attention, and he looks at Elias with fear in his eyes. Yes, yes, this is what has so thoroughly captured Elias' attentions these pasts few months. The way Jon's mind stutters and slips, trying to find purchase on his panic-smoothed thoughts. The way his eyes widen, showing off the lovely darkness of his eyes. The way he trembles and hates himself for it, his tight grip holding his control close.

Jon goes, and Elias' eyes follow him. He sits down behind his desk and smiles.

***

Jon doesn't register what Elias says to dismiss him. He simply rolls his sleeves down and returns to the Archives, avoiding his assistants like a man hunted. He sits down at his desk and his sleeve rides up his arm, revealing the accusingly black edges of his soul mark.

So he gets up and puts on his coat, the thicker sleeves making him feel more thoroughly covered, more protected from prying eyes. He sits down again and tries to relax, tries to turn his mind back to the research that so desperately needs to be done, the end of the world at stake--

His mind keeps wandering, imagining one of the others coming in and demanding to inspect his soul mark.

Never mind that no one has ever done that, that no one would ever do that. He can too clearly imagine what the reaction would be, if any of the others found out what has happened. Bad enough to have the name scrawled on his wrist; to have the bond suddenly, impossibly accepted? What ideas would the others draw from that? What conclusions could they possibly come to?

What if Tim saw it?

What if Daisy saw it?

What does it mean?

He gets up again and leaves the Archives, not sure where he's going, just sure that he needs to move. His mind is racing, and he clutches at his wrist like it hurts. Nothing makes sense, anymore, not that it was making much sense to begin with.

Nevertheless, the shock is familiar. All of it is a plunging from stability into cold loneliness, all of it terrifying. He doesn't want Jonah Magnus to accept the bond. He doesn't want Jonah Magnus to be a willing servant of evil. He doesn't want his soulmark to be grey and unnerving. He doesn't want any of this.

His wandering takes him past a portrait of Jonah because it's his Institute, and they are unavoidable. Jon has been trying to avoid their gaze since he returned from his Elias-caused exile, but now he stops. He studies the face that he knows so well, that is as familiar to him as any of his flesh-and-blood acquaintances.

He shivers.

[obsessingoverthisandthat]

Genuine question to doorkeay shippers:

...Do yall just ignore the fact that Micheal worked with Gerrys dad and how he's therefore pretty older than Gerry?

Or...like. How does it work?

Because in concept its pretty cute, don't get me wrong, but...the age-gap. The timeline. How???

Edit: I am fully aware that in any case they are consenting adults. I am not pointing out that it's wrong at all. It isn't. I just want to know if yall just ignore the age-gap or if it doesn't matter or if yall did some math and it isn't as big as it seemed to me anyway (which some of u did, delightful /gen). Thank you for the many answers and potential new ones, I appreciate it.