#Fanon Macaque Sucks

[itsabouttimex2]

Oh! Can you rank macaque ships too?

69, shadowpuppet ect

Macaque Ship Ratings

(Scores rank from -10 at the lowest, and 10 at the highest)

(Sun Wukong)

Before reading this list, please keep in mind:

1. Not every ship has enough content for me to remark on, and some ships contain dynamics that I find triggering!

2. My social media usage is limited, and I don’t use every site.

3. I have not consumed every piece of artwork and fanfic in the fandom, so I’m just remarking on trends from what I have seen.

Shadowpuppet

Name Rating: 10/10. I’ll admit- this one is good! I like the reference to: Macaque’s powers, the Mayor’s status as a (willing) pawn of the LBD, Macaque’s status as a (sort of willing) pawn of the LBD, Macaque’s actual use of shadow puppetry… it’s a good name!

Canon Rating: -5/10. Look. C’mon. The Mayor and Macaque have literally no positive interactions at all, they have barely any screen time together regardless. Anything the Mayor does to Macaque is immediately harmful and he takes glee in it.

Fanon Rating: -3/10. In general you’ll notice a running trend that Fanon!Macaque in general is your generically rancid and one-note “He never did even a single bad thing ever at all!” that woobified villains tend to get, and Shadowpuppet goes hard on this trend by portraying Macaque purely through the lens of him being a flat and uninspired “eternal victim”- but it only gets a -3 because it is somewhat appropriate when the person in question genuinely is an awful person who has only ever hurt Macaque.

Personal Enjoyment: 0/10. Sorry, y’all. I just don’t see it.

Shadowpeach

Name Rating: 5/10. Basic, but rolls off the tongue. Started the trend of Sun Wukong having extremely basic ship names, unfortunately.

Canon Rating: 0/10. Whatever they had in the past, Macaque simply treats Wukong far too awfully to really justify the two of them ever getting together. Even the attempts at reconciliation feel more like extremely forced ship baiting, given how it goes from one of the two being marginally kinder to the other than usual, then immediately dropping it for more sniping. (Past!Shadowpeach receives 5/10.)

Fanon Rating: -10/10. I've spoken at length about this, but fans love to distort Wukong into a drooling abuser so stupid he can't breath through his nose, usually while turning Macaque into a Possession Sue who only serves to be the author's simpering self-insert who is the most perfect little baby of all time who has never ever done anything wrong at all even once. If there is an attempt to be “nuanced" or "unbiased" it manifests as "Sun Wukong "killed" (re: defended himself against) Macaque so he's worse." It's an awful, extremely pervasive dynamic that rots any fandom enjoyment I could have had for this couple.

Personal Enjoyment: 6/10. Getting to write Macaque as the legitimately awful person that he is takes off the edge of seeing constant “uwu sadboi" Macaque content. Still, I rarely touch anyone else's Shadowpeach content because of how pervasive “Fanon!Macaque” is.

Blackberry

Name Rating: 10/10. Macaque actually gets like… really good ship names. Whoever is coming up with these is putting in more effort than whoever came up with all of Sun Wukong’s ship names, at least. The name references both Change’s association with food, and is a color that both characters share! Also- I have a serious weakness for ship names that reference real things.

Canon Rating: 0/10. There’s not even any indication that the two know that the other exists. Maybe they’ll meet up at some point, but as for right now

Fanon Rating: -5/10. Hey, remember what I said above two times already? That Fanon!Macaque is a big simpering bitch baby who only exists to serve as an eternal victim for the writer to coddle like a saint whose only crime is being too perfect? Same applies to Blackberry, to no surprise! It’s less egregious in that Chang’e is legitimately a sweet and loving lady.

Personal Enjoyment: 3/10. The fanart can be cute, but that’s about all that Blackberry has going for it that appeals to my taste. Maybe I’ll come around to it if they have some interaction in the show proper, but I’m not banking on it.

Inkypages

Name Rating: 7/10. This is a simpler name, but I like it! Again, Macaque’s (and Tang’s, too!) ship names are willing to go beyond trying to confine him to a single aspect of his character and actually utilize several aspects of his personality and being beyond just one food. (Yes I’m still mad about the peach prioritization that Sun Wukong’s ship names have.) Inkypages isn’t bad! I like saying it! It’s a logical thing to say!

Canon Rating: -10/10. Okay. Okay, I know. I talk about this a lot. Macaque in the story doesn’t really have logical growth as a character because the show isn’t willing to center any significant time around his flaws and misdeeds outside of MK being hurt by him and then in turn throwing him second chances like cheap candy, which means that Macaque’s genuinely villainous actions have no weight because even the people hurt the worst by him don’t actually get to have thoughts or feelings on how he’s hurt them, and even at his absolute most rancid all of his wrongdoings are simply forgotten, which means his dynamic with Tang is literally: Be a piece of shit -> degrade him -> violently attack him -> try to manipulate him -> be defended by Tang after releasing the Samadhi Fire -> nothing.

It’s... it’s just not good. I still don’t understand why Macaque was going to be a villain at all if nothing he did reflects back onto him in any way or is hard to grow past. It’s just... their dynamic is bad. Most of Macaque’s dynamics are bad because the majority of his growth happens offscreen and away from the people that he’s hurt, which leaves reduces what could’ve been a genuinely intriguing and complex character arc to nothing.

Fanon Rating: -8/10. Hey, do you guys like seeing Tang be turned into a snarky lid-eyed whore who hates Wukong? No? Then you won’t like Inkypages. Hey, do you guys like seeing Macaque be reduced to a blubbering pants-shitting baby who needs to be coddled past whatever misdeeds the author invented to be mad at Wukong for supposedly committing? No? Then you won’t like Inkypages. Hey, do you guys like blatant character assassination for the sake of babying villainous blorbos and over-angstifying old men? No? Then you won’t like Inkypages.

Personal Enjoyment: 0/10. This is the longest section of this rant for a reason. I just… it’s a lot like Shadowpeach, where to a large degree the fans have kinda turned me away from any portrayal of the ship- except Shadowpeach has an interesting enough dynamic that I like engaging with it anyhow, at least on my own.

End Result

(Scores ranging from -40 to +40)

Shadowpuppet= 2/40

Shadowpeach= 1/40

(Past!Shadowpeach would be around 20)

Blackberry= 8/40

Inkypages= -11/40

[angstandhappiness]

True

People really need to drop the idea that Macaque has taught MK anything. Macaque doesn't have a teaching style because he isn't a teacher. He used that to mock MK. Macaque hasn't been teaching MK he's been TRAUMATIZING him.

"MK needs Macaques teachings!" NO HE DOESN'T. S1 E9 LITERALLY HAS THAT AS ITS MESSAGE. MACAQUES "TEACHINGS" HARMED MK. THEY MADE HIM WORSE. Macaque isn't MKs mentor. He's not a figure MK should follow, listen to, or look up to. macaque does more harm to MK than good and the fact so many people can't see that is mind boggling to me.

[starrclown]

I just found your account and your hc and takes on the characters are SO GOOD, specially love those about wukong and his relationships with other characters like the brotherhood, and macaque cuz, the fandom some reason treat him a lot out of character to me.

Idk ,let the guy be the pathetic asshole he is ,trying to act all cool and edgy. also I'm like a macaque fan and hater at the same time cuz I love his character but I hate how the people act like "omg poor baby" NOPE ,that grown ass monkey can also make mistakes and be a little too fuck up ,but also yeah ,someone get this guy some help ,but he probably mocks his therapists at the point when they got tired of him.

English isn't my firts language so sorry if this is poorly written.

I was reading this and the idea that Macaque would not only, annoy a therapist so much they quit and or kick him out, he would THEN mock a therapist after that fact.

That's atcually the best Macaque headcannon ever.

And I'm glad you like my takes on the characters, especially Wukong :D

Sometimes I think I let my bias or fanon get to me, which isn't bad, but it depends on if I'm criticism the fandom for doing that to much where it's a problem.

I'm kinda in the same boat expect I'm not a Macaque fan, I'm a Macaque understander.

Like I get the appel of him, I just think almost ever to character is cooler.

Also side note but I love when the fanom collectively comes together and calls Macaque pathetic either in personality or for Wukong. It's great.

I'm glad you like my account :D

(Also don't worry about your English. Knowing more than 1 language is Hella impressive. If it makes you feel better, English IS my first language and I SUCK at it.)

[sketching-shark]

I say we gotta put LEMH back into the dirt. He gotta go

Im tire of him being v feminized and being treated as uwu poor meow meow

He doesn’t even actually have a name yet the name that describes him gets treated as such benevolence?? W a c k

Im hating on his moon symbolism, mf doesn’t deserve one of swk parents to represent him

awegrrstghsfds man you guys are really dunking on lego show LEMH on my blog today. But yeah anon the uwufication of the Six-Eared Macaque was kind of funny at first but personally now I just see it as increasingly annoying and depressing. First because YEAH for as much as people keep saying that Monkie Kid gave him more of a character it's still a character fundamentally driven by his violent obsession with Sun Wukong to the point where there's little about him that isn't based on his dealings with the Monkey King, & now there's basically 0 sign that he'll get to cultivate a personality outside of that (X_X).

Also definitely sucks that so much of the sympathy & background the shadow simian's been given is a direct result of the show itself characterizing SWK with increasingly frequency as a selfish destructive idiot who ruins the lives of everyone around him & fandom running with that. I've said before that one of my favorite things about og classic SWK is how blunt he is about the reasons behind his actions, and how even when he's being ultra-violent you can usually understand why he's acting that way. In Xiyouji the whole REASON SWK went after LEMH as furiously as he did was because this monkey not only badly hurt his loved ones in both the pilgrimage and the Mt. Huaguoshan monkey yaoguai troop, but was aiming to murder-replace the Monkey King so he could have all the glory of that identity for himself. But in Monkie Kid? Well it turns out that LEMH defended his bff SWK to the end only to be betrayed by a Monkey King who just completely sucks now I guess! And yes yes I know they keep saying we don't have the full story but come on it's been 4 seasons and we've only ever gotten LEMH's perspective all while SWK either runs around blundering into one catastrophe after another or gets taken out of the story. Definitely does seem at times like as a direct result both canon and fanon is gunning to replace SWK with LEMH so I guess congratulations to Monkie Kid LEMH for achieving what Xiyouji LEMH couldn't lmao.

And yeah I know I know things will probably get cleared up in one way or another what with skewed perspectives more of the story to tell etc. but as it stands it's kind of nuts just how much of the current hatred for SWK is based on the understanding pushed by the show itself that he's absolutely in the wrong for whatever went down between him and LEMH, all while LEMH is I guess forever defined by a guy he despises. Fully aware that things are open to change, but personally I see this as the worst end for both characters (X_X)

[stellawolfearts]

"macaque never really cared about mk till the end of season 3" "Macaque isnt redeemed yet" "Macaque and Mk dont have a father son relationship"

YEAHOKAY I GET IT SHUT SHHHH SHUT LET ME LIVE IN MY DELUSIONS

CANNON MACAQUE CAN SUCK A ROCK LET ME ADORE FANON MOMCACUE/DADMAC OKAY

[sketching-shark]

Would you say that the LMK writers don't understand Wukong as a character? Of course, there are different interpretations and adaptations of not only this character but many other beloved characters from different stories.

But I think if 10 different writers create a story about, say, Spider-Man. Even if they all do something different with the character, Spider-Man should still be recognizable as Spider-Man. Like there are inherent traits that simply make the character who they are.

Do you think LMK Wukong is missing those inherent traits, or I guess completely misses the point on who SWK is a character?

Monkie Kid spoilers below:

I guess I'd have to start off by saying that I'm very hesitant, especially as someone who is neither Chinese or of Chinese descent, to say whether there's a truly "wrong" way to understand or write the Monkey King. Hell I've often poked fun at the way Sun Wukong has frequently been written in Chinese retellings of Journey to the West, and it must be acknowledged that there is a MASSIVE numbers of very different ways that Sun Wukong has been depicted in Xiyouji retellings, from a silly little guy to a hardened war criminal. For example, here's a Sun Wukong who's definitely an evil little bloodthirsty scamp as presented by Stephen Chow in Journey to the West: Conquering the Demons (2013):

And here's a panel of the Monkey King "Aku" from Marjorie Liu's (who's of Taiwanese descent) Monstress. Here he's feasting on fruit while watching the souls of a bunch of kids that he had slaughtered be tortured for information:

So yes, there's a pretty big difference between these version of the Monkey King and many others, including his multifaceted presentation in the og classic and the laid-back goof that Monkie Kid seems to be aiming for! THAT SAID, and even while acknowledging that the Monkey King as a character has gone through innumerable transformations (lol), I can't help but feel like the writers for Monkie Kid might be letting their Sun Wukong fall prey to the all-too-common push for "more epic!," "The antagonists were right all along," "Pile on the angst!" and the kind of standard taking out the "intelligent" in "intelligent stone monkey" that you see in other western versions of the Monkey King. For example, Netflix's The New Legend of Monkey stars a muscleheaded and illiterate Monkey King, and while it was more of a one-off jest that was quickly disproved in Monkie Kid it is a bit well bothersome how to this day you'll find "lol Sun Wukong can't read!" jokes being bandied about.

I also don't think that anyone can deny that lego show Sun Wukong has been presented as less and less of a competent or even heroic individual as the story's gone on, and personally I'm starting to suspect that this is partially because the writers A) didn't know how to make Qi Xiaotian shine as a hero otherwise and B) to make the Six-Eared Macaque change from obvious antagonist to a true member of team good guy. It's undeniable that Macaque is the firm fandom meow-meow and has been for awhile, and if memory serves correctly the "Sun Wukong sucks" rhetoric started to really take off after Macaque presented his shadow play back in season 2 in which the Monkey King is ultimately framed as nothing but a selfish jerk who betrays his friends on a whim. And while there's basically 0 reference in either recent canon or fanon to the stuff the shadow simian put Qi Xiaotian and his loved ones through up until the end of season 3, it's hammered in time after time after time again just how completely Sun Wukong hurt and still hurts everyone around him because of what he did or what he failed to do. As it is, now we've seen Zhu Dachu yell at SWK for failing to protect Qi Xiaotian, an entire play that framed him as a terrible person and Macaque flat-out saying he's a terrible teacher (and then the plot going out of its way to somewhat confirm this), many people yelling at SWK for his plan to use the Samadhi Fire being stupid and poorly thought out, Long Xiaojio screaming at him for failing everyone especially the people who care about him while she's on fire and in pain, the Azure Lion referring to SWK as someone who's corrupted Qi Xiaotian with his blindness, and the ink clone of Qi Xiaotian--you known, the manifestation of his scariest but truest fears--referring to SWK as a fraud and a force of destruction. So now SWK and the lego show story have been left is this weird place where it seems that in large part the "SWK completely sucks and hurts everyone" truthers were right--and you see this sentiment reflected CONSTANTLY in canon and in fanon--and yet when people just say that explicitly there's a certain amount of scrambling to argue otherwise. I know it's been discussed before, but I think it bears repeating that not that long ago the hatred being leveled at SWK for supposedly being Qi Xiaotian's deadbeat dad on top of everything else he ruined forever got to the point where a writer felt compelled to go on twitter to confirm that SWK is not the father. I think it was the same writer who said that SWK is trying his best, but as others have noted if THIS is his best (world seems like it's in danger of being destroyed every other week) well lol and also lmao. Idk, personally I think if they noted there were THAT many people ready to condemn SWK for something that wasn't even proven one way or another they should step back and think about why that is. And it definitely doesn't help that they keep saying that there's more to this story from SWK's perspective and/or what actually happened, but then they won't actually show it.

So in the end, I'm not sure if in Monkie Kid's case it's so much a instance of not understanding the Monkey King as much as it is about not wanting to stick with what makes the Monkey King so beloved in the first place, the writers themselves not having a firm idea about where they ultimately want his story to go, but also even if unconsciously using him as a punching bag/sacrificial lamb to further the stories/likeability of other characters. And who knows, maybe later episodes will give SWK a backstory that is so tragic and well written and that explains his failures in the present so well that I'll feel stupid for saying all of this. Honestly I would love it if that was the case. Because Monkie Kid seem to have become one of the main ways that a lot of people in the west are learning about the Monkey King and Journey to the West in the first place, and it would kind of suck if the main impression that they ended with was with SWK as nothing but an constant failure that basically everyone who's ever loved him or even spent time with him comes to distrust, resent, and flat-out hate for very legitimate reasons.

[sketching-shark]

I think the biggest problem (at least in my eyes) w LMK swk rn is the fact that we have yet to see, well, ANYTHING from his point of view - we never get to hear his side of the story. I’m not sure how to word this the way I want to, but since most of the characters that bring up Swk’s shortcomings are antagonists (esp Macaque’s in this season feels more like petty innsults mainly just to get under Qi Xiaotian’s skin) it feels like it ties a little into the whole theme they’ve set up w this season - how you’re defined, both by what you ‘are’ and by how other’s percieve you. Swk expresses that he knows he can’t change the past so instead he focuses on trying to do better in the present, while those he may have wronged are so hung up on getting back at him. So idk I feel like there is potential that they’re not just hammering in on a Haha Sun Wukong sucks sentiment - I’m holding out hope that as episodes progress we maybe get to hear more from Swk himself as he opens up more (like we’ve seen him start to do) and that he gets to interract more w the group so we can actually see some of the results of his development SHRUGS one can hope. Sorry for rambling in your ask box I just think abt this a lot gdhdghsgd

Monkie Kid spoilers below:

Ah no worries anon feel free to ramble away. But anon I honestly hope that you are right about that...the amount of hatred that the Monkey King's been getting in both canon and fanon for some time now is pretty depressing :( Though I will say that while you are mostly correct in that we know basically nothing about Sun Wukong's past from his point of view, I'll admit to being a bit worried on how further explorations of his history from his perspective will play out given that the one(1) time where we actually saw something from his point of view it was him goofing around during the suppression of the Samadhi fire and thus almost causing a disaster (plus planting the seed for a future catastrophe). Plus with the way every single one of his former friends thoroughly hates him as he is (even given Azure Lion's "he WAS so cool" & "I will fix him" mentality) it all makes me wary about where this is going, even with the hints that the torture headband is going to feature heavily...I fully acknowledge that I've been a real debbie downer about the goofy lego show as of late and that this might in large part be due to me own flawed perception, and it would be cool if Flying Bark managed to write some way that actually gets the Monkey King started on a good story where he gets to be something besides a despised failure. BUT I GUESS WE'LL SEE.

[sketching-shark]

Somewhere in the alternate universe macaque doesn’t get that favoritism

I think even for our jttw classic trope of bad guy got redemption arc is indeed everyone favorite monkey: sun wukong

Bc fandom doesn’t have to put in the effort rectify or rework every parts of him in order for u to like him. The novel shows us gis redemption arc and give good basis for the things he do(aka show us his reasoning n motives) despite how atrocious it is

He doesn’t get the woobify effect n that’s pretty neat(i say its pretty hard to even do that. Downside is that some ppl would flatten him into murderous mode 24/7 or “im victim of abuse despite evidence that said the contraire” what i would give to make ppl understand that TANG SANZANG IS NOT EVIL NOR IS ZHU BAJIE

Monkie Kid spoilers and my complaining & kind of exaggerating stuff below so you know the drill kids avert your eyes if you don't want to read that

SIGH YEAH anon like gosh darn when I first started watching Monkie Kid I did not think we'd see the day where Flying Bark would go out of their way to destroy almost all of Sun Wukong's relationships from the og classic and write him as like an entire Bojack Horseman-esque asshole, all while insisting that the Six-Eared Macaque never did anything wrong ever. Said it before & I'll say it again, it genuinely is baffling the extent to which both fanon and canon have rushed to pour tons of time and effort into absolving LEMH of literally everything immediately be rewriting his entire story & by making Sun Wukong even worse than he was at his very worst in Journey to the West (starting to wonder if that's why there's a history of people getting mad if you compare the two works lmao). Plenty of people more eloquent and knowledgeable than I have given great insight into the complexities and nuances inherent in Xiyouji, from the driving motives of its main characters to the larger political and historical context, and while YEAH of course you can't expect a silly lego show to cover most if any of that it has definitely sucked to see the way the characters of all the og pilgrims have been really simplified in often some pretty detrimental ways...that said, there does seem to be more of an effort to depict Tang Sanzang & Zhu Bajie as not entire monkey torturing monsters, so that at least maybe counts as a step in a better direction.

[cosmicredcadet]

People really need to drop the idea that Macaque has taught MK anything. Macaque doesn't have a teaching style because he isn't a teacher. He used that to mock MK. Macaque hasn't been teaching MK he's been TRAUMATIZING him.

"MK needs Macaques teachings!" NO HE DOESN'T. S1 E9 LITERALLY HAS THAT AS ITS MESSAGE. MACAQUES "TEACHINGS" HARMED MK. THEY MADE HIM WORSE. Macaque isn't MKs mentor. He's not a figure MK should follow, listen to, or look up to. macaque does more harm to MK than good and the fact so many people can't see that is mind boggling to me.