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science-lings · 3 months ago

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Dialogue from TGAA that tickles my brain in the context of my Actual Phoenix!Naruhodo's AU

Not-very-local man is totally normal about fire:

It's just stated too many times to be normal, I don't have a screenshot but I remember Susato warning Ryunosuke against getting too close to the fireplace so he doesn't set himself on fire and I like to think she said that bc he does hang out way too close to the flames with Wagahai, let the little guys get warm...

Discussions of the reoccurring mentions of humanity and bird symbolism under the cut

'Only Human' but is he? (and other discussions about mortality)

This would just be so funny for Kazuma to think if Ryunosuke wasn't quite human

Ryunosuke is less skeptical when it comes to things like ghosts and curses, so I could see him believing in the reaper's curse in the context that Barok has something otherworldly going on bc Ryunosuke knows exactly what it's like to have something going on, maybe he was looking for some form of comradery but unfortunately, he didn't get it. Turns out it's just a myth he uses to batman his way through London. Use other's fear of him against them and all that.

Even if each discussion of humanity isn't targeted at Ryunosuke specifically, he's still included in the 'like everyone else' and I find that funny with the Phoenix AU in mind. It keeps being brought up and he has to be like 'haha... yeah... i get that...' while he's sitting on the knowledge that he isn't human, he isn't normal, no matter how much he's trying to be 'just some guy' he's fated to be drawn towards situations where he's actually so important. Every time the phrase 'we're only human' comes up he's reminded that that's exactly what he isn't but no one else can know.

bird guy talks about bird without being suspicious

Also on what Ryunosuke could've meant by this I found some info on the symbolism of sparrows:

In Japanese culture, sparrows hold special symbolism. They are seen as messengers of joy and happiness, bringing good fortune to those who encounter them. Sparrows also represent resilience and adaptability, as they can thrive in different environments and overcome challenges. In Japan, sparrows are often associated with the arrival of spring, symbolizing new beginnings and hope for the future. Their cheerful presence is believed to bring harmony into people’s lives and foster a sense of community.

and I interpret that into Ryunosuke seeing Kazuma as this resilient idealistic figure and as the hope to make a difference (his goal to make japans legal system better), but also he is the person that brings Ryunosuke the most joy.

also...

spotting a sparrow on your windowsill was considered the presence of a deceased loved one watching over you.

Which tracks as Ryunosuke copes by believing that Kazuma resides within Karuma and is 'with' him throughout his whole journey. He takes comfort in the idea that some part of Kazuma is watching over him and regularly addresses him as such.

anyway bird tangent over, He's also got the thing when you realize that it's a miracle that he is even alive (ie. swallowing all his pills at once, making an enemy of the british government, like they really just let him reveal government secrets and only put him in a time-out, like those were Stronghart's secrets and he was still like 'I guess you can just go to detention idc')

this was actually mostly just for me to compilate relevant screenshots, but if anyone else finds this interesting that's pretty cool too ig.

#Phoenix!Naruhodo AU #ryunosuke naruhodo #ryuunosuke naruhodou #ace attorney #the great ace attorney #tgaa spoilers #this isn't like... proof that my au is canon its just 'things that would be funny in the context of my au'#i just think its funny if Ryunosuke is not as normal as he seems #everyone thinks that hes just this tiny pathetic guy but he's also absolutely relentless in the courtroom and also can't die #don't let maria near him after his secret comes out she wouldn't be the only one to want to cut him open a little #i think its fun to make him so intent on being perceived as normal but he keeps being put in situations that make that kinda hard #also the setting is kind of perfect for this kind of au the world is powered by gas and fire and the justice system is symbolised by flames #i mean the final explosion??? that is an opportunity for me

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shockingshinx12-shinx · 7 months ago

Note

In the authors notes for your fic "a dog's breakfast" you mentioned that you have a lot of opinions about Clockwork's involvement in TUE. I am curious what your opinions are, cause I've got some of my own, and I wonder how much they align.

I spent several hours typing up a response to this earlier and I hit something and tumblr DELETED IT WHILE I WAS MID-WAY THROUGH!!!!! SO I HAD TO RESTART AGAIN JHGDFGHGDF sorry for the delay o7

BUT BOY HOWDY DO IT, A LOT IN FACT!! I already dragged 2 of my friends to watch the ep. so I could give them the full rundown of what I'm talking about, so thank you for enabling me cause I love talking about this! Buckle in cause I have ADHD and tend to word vomit, so I hope this all makes sense

I'm sure you've seen a million bajillion people say this already (plus your own thoughts, opinions, and observations) so this may all be stuff you know, but the OG ep is filled with several time paradoxes that make absolutely no sense, which can probably be attributed to the writers not really caring about the logistics of a kids show time-travel ep. But if you wanna look at it from an in-universe standpoint,Clockwork is directly responsible for the events of TUE in both Dan and Danny’s timeline

Let’s start with what we know: (Also, sorry for the crunchy screenshots, I work with what I got)

CW sends Box-Lunch back in time to fight Danny, which causes the Nasty burger to be condemned/abandoned for several days

CW sends Skulk-Tech back in time, which causes the heating element to start heating up the vats of Nasty sauce

Danny and Co. beat Skulk-Tech which transports them to CW’s lair and forces them to flee to the future to escape his “wrath”, which then gives Dan a chance to escape to the past to recreate the NB explosion and ensure his continued existence

OK SO! These are the key points!

Dan Mentions during one of his Spiels to Danny that his loved ones died in an explosion at the Nasty burger, which is reinforced by Vlad when Danny goes to him for help. Similar enough events to what we see in the episode.

The Nasty Burger explosion wouldn’t have happened if Clockwork hadn’t sent Box-Lunch and Skulk-tech to the past. Their direct influence on the present-timeline is what set up those dominoes. This means that CW interfered and fucked Dan over intentionally in his timeline and didn’t do anything to change, or fix what he caused.

The heating element wouldn’t have been left on and unattended if Danny didn’t have to fight Box-Lunch, and the sauce wouldn’t have exploded if Skulk-Tech hadn’t crashed and pushed the element towards the vats.

There’s something to be said about leaving dangerous equipment unattended, so even if Skulk-Tech hadn’t crashed into the kitchen, there’s a chance something else in there could’ve caught fire and triggered an explosion, but it would’ve been at a completely different time, and could’ve potentially been caught and stopped by repair crews (potentially). Skulk-Tech’s involvement ensured the explosion happened sooner. You could also argue that Danny’s fights take him all over the city, and you’d be correct. There’s a possibility that, if Box-Lunch hadn’t been sent back and Danny was fighting one of his other present-day rogue’s, they could’ve accidentally gone crashing through the NB as well; but it’s not guaranteed to have the same result as the Box-Lunch fight. All his Rogue’s are vastly different, with different strengths, weaknesses, fighting styles, and reactions. For example, there’s no guarantee that if Johnny 13 and Shadow went flying through the NB, they’d stay long enough for Danny to think of using the sauce as a weapon against them. Not only that, but it's not guaranteed he'd fight more than one ghost that day. From what we see, none of his usual rogue's bug him during that specific day, so there's a chance he doesn't even fight anyone at all.

If it could be done by anyone else, CW wouldn't have gone through the trouble of pulling ghosts from the future. We also know Dan has met CW before and knows what he does, very specifically stating “Clockwork! Meddling again". So clearly he knows what Clockwork's done, at least to some degree.

Not to mention, Clockwork seems like a chaotic neutral character at BEST. Why would he see fit to completely ruin Danny’s life in the first place? Him going out of his way to do such a thing just doesn’t make sense to me, I can’t see him doing that on purpose, but the events ONLY happen due to his interference. Clockwork is initially shown as only intervening and sending Box-Lunch back because the Observant's ask him to, but if that’s the case, what caused the Nasty burger explosion in Dan’s timeline? Sure, Clockwork is mischievous like anyone else, we see it in the way he slams Danny repeatedly into a bell, but he’s not outright malevolent.

Also quick side-note, Valerie outright blames Phantom for causing the explosion but we know for a fact that Danny didn’t want that to happen, he was literally heartbroken. This could be interpreted a couple different ways I suppose; -One being: that Danny was flying around as Phantom post-explosion while trying to find his family in the rubble and the public wrongfully blamed him again. But that can’t be possible because Danny Fenton WAS found at the scene of the explosion. The paper outright says he was the lone survivor, so if Phantom was flying around, no one would've been able to find "Fenton" at the scene. -Or two being: a different future evil version of Phantom caused the explosion in Dan’s timeline just like Dan did in Danny’s timeline, which is just as impossible as the first option, but more in line with the canon we're given. If he did, Dan would’ve known he was going to lose and would've done things differently, accounted for his previous versions mistakes, not to mention he says Danny shouldn’t get the ghostly wail for 10 more years, plus his surprise that Jazz knew about his secret. If Dan really did have to face a jerky version of himself in his timeline before the explosion, he would’ve acquired the wail long ago and seen Jazz's note. Not to mention present-timeline Danny is grossed out by the idea of having his humanity ripped out. I’d apply that same “grossed-out” feeling to Dan, even if he is mega-depressed after moving to Vlad’s. But also, Dan is only created due to Skulk-Tech and Box-Lunches intervention in the past, who only come into creation due to Dan's rampages in the future. This option would also mean there’s an infinite amount of Phantom’s being displaced in time, constantly, but Clockwork only has the one thermos.

That also brings up another issue.

The Observants make it seem like this is a “first”, but if the explosion only happens cause of Clockwork’s interference with ST and BL in the past, which causes Dan’s creation, then in some timeline before Dan’s- Danny had to become evil to enable the right conditions for each of those “new” ghosts to exist. This means Dan was doomed from the start, the cards were stacked against him, and this loop has been going on for an indeterminate/indefinite amount of time. (Idk if that makes sense, I’m really bad at explaining my thoughts in ways people understand so I made a diagram. Hope this makes the point I’m trying to make clear?)

Ok with the ghosts out of the way, what about the answer booklet? Danny wouldn’t have obtained the answers to the CAT if he hadn’t gone flying through Mr. Lancer’s briefcase at the NB.

This next part contradicts my statement that Dan’s timeline is partially a circle that feeds itself, but bear with me. I attack this from different angles (cause technically both these angles may or may not co-exist at the same time cause this whole ep. Is a mess and we already have an incursion that conflicts with other stated facts of canon JHGDHGJFGHFD this also treads a little more into headcanon area, so I guess take it with a grain of salt if you feel I'm reaching)

Danny seemed genuinely surprised the booklet was there, and his eyes went wide at the prospect that he even could study the answers, like it hadn’t even crossed his mind before that moment. I’d like to think that he wouldn’t have even thought about that being an option till after the test, in a comedic “Man, I’m surprised you didn’t just steal the answers” comment from Tucker which would have caused Danny to facepalm so hard.

We’re never actually given the reason why in Dan’s timeline, he and his loved ones were at the Nasty Burger. Clockwork just says “He turns evil? ‘Cause he’s under pressure from some ‘test’?” which isn’t really a confirmation of anything other than he’s “stressed”, and Sam and Tucker just assume that Danny cheating is the cause with no further evidence than that. Sure, Dan cheats to lure everyone to the Nasty Burger, but that’s because he knows it’ll work. I have reason to believe that in his OG timeline, that’s not exactly how events went down, that he was framed.

This little assumption of mine is based on a few context clues we’re given: First; Danny seems genuinely concerned about doing a good job on this test. He’s actually trying to study for it, he’s putting in the effort, even if he says he quits just before Box-Lunch's assault.

Second; Why were Tucker and Sam at a parent teacher conference that was meant to be between the Fenton’s and Mr. Lancer?

Third; We have the line Lancer says to Jazz when she mentions he has no proof Danny stole the cheat sheet, “Fair enough. He has up until the test to return the answers. BUT! If he cheats, I won’t just fail him, I’ll DESTROY his future!” This shows Lancer has already cemented in his mind that Danny has stolen them, and nothing can convince him otherwise. Cause Jazz is right, Lancer has no proof Danny stole the answers. Sure, he overheard Tucker say something to Danny about not cheating, and when he looked in his case they were gone, but that’s not really grounds for anything. The operative word in Tucker’s statement was “thinking”, which should've cued anyone who was eavesdropping in that Danny hadn’t done anything yet. (IK he has the answers at this time in the ep, but that’s besides the point I’m making here) (Also, the specific quote Tucker says that Lancer overhears is: “Yeahh, you’re right. You’re not thinking of cheating on a test that you’re convinced will determine your future.”) Anyway, despite not having proper proof, he’s already hellbent on ruining Danny’s life no matter what the truth might be.

Fourth; No one gives us specific details about what happened in Dan’s timeline, they’re all based on vague details, assumptions, and jumped conclusion.

I wanna say in Dan’s OG timeline he never actually steals the answers. Lancer was literally walking around everywhere with that briefcase, It’s got a giant target painted on it due to him hand-cuffing it to his wrist. Now I’m not gonna say I know the logistics of stealing shit, but from what I’ve seen of irl lockpicking videos, and the fact that while the briefcase has 2 locks, Lancer only needed to use his key to unlock 1 side, it would be stupidly easy to open his briefcase, anyone could’ve done it. It’s just a matter of distracting him long enough to get it open.

If someone else stole the answers Dan probably would’ve still been Lancer’s main suspect, due to his grades, attendance, running out mid-lesson, and all that other jazz (pun intended), as well as the fact that we already know Lancer shows favoritism towards some students, so he wouldn’t suspect them right away, if at all. It makes Dan the perfect scapegoat in that situation, a bad student, woefully unprepared for the exam of a lifetime, trying to ensure he doesn’t fail, that gets into mischief all the time.

It’d explain why he and his family were called to the Nasty Burger, as well as why Sam and Tucker might be there. They could’ve been trying to defend him from the accusations, trying to build Danny’s case, and demand or plead that Lancer not do anything rash.

The explosion still would’ve had to be caused by CW’s intervention of sending ghosts from the future, which I know doesn’t make sense with how Danny gets the CAT answers, but this idea that Dan’s innocent plays with the fact that no one makes it seem like Danny actually cheated in Dan’s OG timeline. This headcanon makes no sense and I’m well aware of that, but for all intents and purposes, I never saw Dan as being guilty of cheating, it's all flimsy here-say. Not to mention him losing all his friends and family for such a thing is an unjustly cruel punishment for everyone involved, and is extremely stupid. (That being said, I'm not saying Danny ISN'T capable of cheating, I'm just stating he wouldn't cheat here specifically)

He was just painted in a bad light, wrongfully blamed for something he didn’t do, and he’s just a kid who went through something awful. Everyone has it out for him in this scenario, and everyone keeps telling him he’s a monster. Valerie spends 10 years of their future supposedly blaming Phantom for the death of his own friends and family, so if that’s all he’s ever told, of course he sees that as being the only way. (Now I'm not saying Dan's innocent of murder and shit, just that he didn't do what was accused of him before and immediately after the NB explosion)

Anyway, my conclusion to the above is a restatement from earlier, and the TLDR is; none of it makes any goddamn sense, and none of it should’ve happened. Clockwork doesn’t seem like an outwardly malignant ghost, so him going and messing with Danny doesn’t make sense, but TUE only occurs because he crafted that series of events. Also the fact that Danny turned into Dan in a countless number of repeating realities/timelines before Clockwork was forced to stop it by the observants. (And also my headcanon I guess that he didn’t ACTUALLY cheat).

I got a bunch more opinions on other stuff tho. Like about the Nasty burger, the logistics of Dan going to the past the way he did, Danny’s ghost half being ripped from his human half and why phantom did what he did afterwards HJGFDGFGD but this post’s already kinda long so I’ll leave it for another day if you wanna hear about it!! I love talking about this sorta thing so feel free to ask away

Hope you enjoyed my little rant!! And I desperately hope it makes sense HGDFGFJHD

WAIT EDIT: ALSO ALSO, IK everyone loves to depict CW as a mentor figure to Danny whose caring, but that is not the vibe I get from him at ALL. As I said, I think he's a chaotic neutral character at best

#DannyPhantom #I hope this doesn't seem like me just speaking out of my ass #After a certain point I stopped proof reading so it slowly spirals from there #Also everytime I typed “NB” for the nasty burger i kept reading it as “nonbinary” so diversity win‚ the food establishment that has a body-#count of 6 and is now a hole in the ground is nonbinary #I actually wrote an entire series of events for Dan's version of the Timeline that leads up to the explosion #It's mostly just plot outlines and some vague details but it solves a lot of the weird paradoxes and shit #I haven't posted it anywhere but I use it as a basis whenever I write for the “learning to fly” series

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