#Elden Ring Speculation

[eyestrain-addict]

Some interesting visual story telling in messmers clinic I noticed

Perfumers are essentially the doctors of the lands between (and honestly I just really like the worldbuilding of the perfumers. There's something so very human about all their areas and stuff so when I saw this little bit of set dressing in the world I got vv excited) you can see all the accoutrement of the perfumers within the 'clinic', you even get a perfume ash of war. But there are no perfumers here. Not even any of the pages whom assist them. It's been abandoned.

This is such a amazing visual metaphor to me. To remind the viewer of something, and then the absence of said thing is incredibly obvious. (Honestly I'm of the opinion the perfumers have some of the best visual storytelling in the game, but I can't really put it into words because I just love it so much. The fact their areas are full of little objects and really creative worldbuilding that reminds you 'oh this is an entirely different culture' aaaaaa I just love it so much. Their building in leyndell is one of my favorites it feels like a place designed to be lived and worked in. Sorry anyway back to the point-)

If we believe that Queen Marikas war was a holy-revenge-fueled war in nature (which I have doubts about because the irl crusades were about conquest, disguised as a holy war to rally the peoples support but again not my point here) then these are the people she is fighting to avenge. But as the crusade raged on, the perfumers turned their healing sprays into mists of poison and fire. The clinic was abandoned, as the pain the perfumers could inflict was more important to the crusade. It's an amazing metaphor of how often violence fueled by revenge is never truly about justice or healing, or if it ever was can easily lose sight of their original goal. Marikas purge helped no one, no even her own people. Perhaps that's why the Black Knife Assassins (whom were notably all women and numen with close ties to Marika) sought to disrupt her Order. They knew better than anyone else it was not justice which led Marikas actions.

Maybe I'll make another post of how I think the real life history of the crusades factors into the plot of the DLC. But I thought this was a cool detail.

[veliatra]

Hi. Quick talk about the dlc.

Might be stupid, but Radahn in second phase is kinda a mirror to Godfrey first phase.

I don't know what to do with this information other than Miquella is Radahn's Serosh in a way to supress him.

Bye.

[the-odd-laundromat]

On Miquella, St. Trina, and Spirits

Warning, this is a fairly long post. Best buckle up.

I've started to let my imagination wander of late about Miquella, St. Trina, and spirit ashes within the lore of Elden Ring and its DLC. I made this for fun and I don't intend it in serious spirit. If this doesn't line up with your own theories or headcanons, that's cool. There are billions of people on the planet, and some of us are bound to disagree. Let's all be civil about it, please. (Do note this is just my personal blog, not dedicated exclusively to ER).

My theory is this: Apart from sleep (through St. Trina), Unalloyed Gold and the Haligtree, Miquella holds dominion over spirits; specifically Torrent, Spirit Ashes and spirit bosses you fight.

Miquella fits, if abstractly, into Elden Ring's mythological basis. He parallels the god Baldr from Norse myth, already an influence on Elden Ring (e.g., The Erdtree = Yggdrasil) in some ways: Baldr was associated with light and all good things, and was specifically noted to be beloved by all. Baldr's death (though that's Godwyn in ER) triggers Ragnarok. Baldr is among the gods who survive and return to a renewed, clean-slate world (Miquella wants to create a new world order with the Haligtree).

Now, I'll go out on a limb and propose that he also parallels Apollo of Greek myth. Apollo wasn't specifically beloved by all (I don't think), but he was significantly venerated, comparably to big-shots like Zeus, Athena, Aphrodite, and Hermes. He's also associated with light (one of his most common epithets is Phoebus Apollo, meaning Shining or Radiant Apollo), and is a twin (granted, Apollo and Artemis are rather different to Miq and Malenia). In the DLC trailer, Miquella glows, and the camera cuts immediately to a bright light bathing the strangler-fig tree (nature unknown) from behind.

Now comes the fun part: The connection between music, death, and sleep. Apollo is also famously a god of music, and in Elden Ring, spirits are also associated with it. You summon spirits in combat with the Spirit-Calling Bell, and Melina gives you the Spectral Steed Whistle to summon Torrent (who some speculate Miquella is the "original master" of, as supported by promotional art for the DLC). Curiously, Miquella's alter ego St. Trina is also associated with music: One of their titles is Saint Trina of the Cradlesong, and as mentioned in a cut quest, Miquella, as St. Trina, supposedly sang a lullaby to the Frenzied Flame Merchants to ease their suffering. To my knowledge, no other figure has such an association to music.

Fittingly for a game constantly trying to kill you, Elden Ring is in no shortage of death gods and suchlike figures. Maliketh and Godwyn may be considered death gods through their relation to Deathroot/the Rune of Death, you have the Deathbirds/Twinbird and the Gloam-Eyed Queen and the Ancestor Spirit, Ghostflame and Blackflame and the Frenzied Flame - heck, Malenia/the Scarlet Rot God could even qualify, as a harbinger of decay and apocalypse. My proposition is that Miquella is or will become another death god, but of merciful death, of deathlike sleep and the peaceful dream of oblivion - hence his connection to the Shadow Realm. And potentially the first spirit tuner - Hewg tutors Roderika because he's "indebted to a spirit tuner [he] met long ago". After all, in Greek mythology, Sleep (Hypnos) is brother to Death (Thanatos).

Are there holes in this? Yeah, probably. Will the DLC canon crush this theory under Messmer's open-toed cowboy boots? Most definitely. That's okay. Part of the fun of speculation is seeing just how crazy you can get with it. Sorry this is so long-winded. I hope you enjoyed this deranged romp through the mythology of this super cool video game.

[ishaslife]

Who is Messmer?

I really think that Messmer is Marika's exiled son or something. Radagon and her may have been involved from wayyy before and likely had a son in secret or he's an offshoot of the two of them when they merged (if they weren't already one being) and dude went on to do his own thing. Because if you remember, in one of Marika's echos, she's talking to her demigod kids and she's basically saying that they must strive to become a lord or even a god and if they failed to do either, they will be sacrificed.

I believe Marika had many, many more children yet only those who succeeded in making something of themselves were made demigods and were written about. Just like Melina who is also likely Marika's daughter and I definitely think, so is Messmer. A bit of a stretch, but he might just be her brother or even twin. Both of them have an eye that's shut, they are both associated with fire/burning and both of them have been removed from history. Their origins are shrouded in mystery, almost as if the world didn't want them to be remembered or recorded.

Perhaps Messmer succeeded in becoming one of the demigod children but to an extent where he attempted to usurp the erdtree order with one of the serpent as there is say that there is a forgotten serpent diety in Mt. Gelmir. This may the diety Rykard was in search of when he found the God-devouring serpent and assumed that to be the "outer" God.

My assumption is: Messmer was captured by his mother's forces and instead of being killed or sacrificed (probably because they thought that they could use his skills), he was exiled, his powers and strength being put to use in another land where he would serve his punishment by killing those robbed of the "grace of gold." Which is what he is continuing when we will meet him in the DLC. He sees us as being stripped of its grace because the influence of the greater will more or less no longer exists, we have established an entirely new order but Messmer doesn't know that.

There is no doubt in my mind that he is Marika's son as he basically mocks his mother's "decision" to have someone like us made lord, someone without grace.

[spoookiepie]

Honestly the fact that Ranni only shows any form of affection/protectiveness for Renalla is such an interesting character tell.

She doesn’t really talk about her family much, and certainly doesn’t reveal how she feels about them. One even has to die for her plans to succeed and while we never know if that saddens her or not, she doesn’t hesitate in seeing it happen.

But Renalla…

Ranni might not speak of her family much, but her mother is the only one she goes out of her way to protect from the player. Her brothers both die at our hands, but Ranni won’t allow the same to happen to Renalla. And that perhaps speaks volumes more than words could

[infobotbot]

maybe Messmer the impaler is the product of immaculate conception, a virgin mary situation

[florjb0rj]

Is it just me, or does this look like a poison covered Larval Tear?

Souls players: pls no more poison swamps

Miyazaki: baby :)

[julijbee]

sleeper/sleeping

[dr-zeddy]

I also believe that Miquella was jealous of Mohg/saw him as competition regarding his original plans

and intentionally made the Mohgwyn Dynasty look like an awful alternative to what he tried to do with the Haligtree.

This is on my personal speculative side but with the in-game context of what the Formless Mother religion symbolized in the Land's of Shadow, we may assume Mohg and his followers celebrated her in a similar fashion before Miquella took over his mind.

The bloodfiends are literally just vibing until you attack them/invade their territory. Bloodshed isn't the only thing this Outer God represents, it's also a symbolism for maternal love/birth/rebirth for those shunned and cursed (Hence why she blessed Mohg and showed up to the "subjugated tribe" in the Land's of Shadow), which we know from the "Outer God Heirloom"

I believe this deity is still twisted and not to meddled around with, but I don't think the Formless Mother exclusively stands for murdering people. We also know that the bloodfiends resulted to SH occasionally to serve their "mother" (which is in itself a little problematic but it also indicates that they do not walk around and randomly kill everything in their path) (see "Bloodfiend's Fork")

So my take is that when Miquella brainwashed Mohg this entire cult got corrupted too, making it the center of (mercy) killings and death while Miquella is the only anchor of life, we see this in the "Lord of Blood Exultation Talisman":

Spilling blood to create a new life. Which is, naturally speaking, nonsense and as I said before, a lot of things point to the fact that the FM has natural roots, while giving hope to those who were shunned.

This indicates that Mohg had similar goals to Miquella with his Haligtree, offering outcasts a haven/place to be/belong to. Miquella always relied on enchanting/manipulating people to achieve his goals, I guess he was pissed that Mohg was able to do this, only by being naturally charismatic, since we know that he had to be quite the leader if he pulls actual reasonable people like Ansbach to his side. He was the perfect leader for outcasts and the oppressed (see additonally my post about Mohg's appearence being extremley devine in the Land's of Shadow) and therefore was a direct threat to the things Miquella wanted to achieve with his Haligtree. Because why follow Miquella when there already was a similar cult/religion with a charismatic leader like Mohg?

[swallowtail-ageha]

Anyways today i replayed castle morne and i want to brainvomit a bit about it because i genuinely think its brilliant in both buildup and execution of themes, and especially as a way to denounce the supposed righteousness and the imperialism of the Golden Order so early in the game

(Putting a cut because holy moly its long. Also i apologize in advance for the run along sentences)

You first reach the weeping peninsula and the first npc you speak to is Irina. She is standing alone, without any weapon and blind, in the middle of a bunch of her family's garrison's corpses (and i think that the fact that the models used are the models of soldiers of godrick, whom thanks to Kenneth Height we know are particularly cruel to demihumans and the likes, is significant). As she herself says, she is being hunted down: her family's servants have rebelled and her father corageously stayed there to keep the postation and the home's ancestral sword, while she had been ambushed and her garrison died to save her.

And this is the perfect set up for people who are less genre savy and expect a more linear story, where the young girl and the kind father have been kicked out by the intrinsically evil, inhuman creatures that don't look human and don't seem to be very intelligent, and where the kind knight helps them to defeat the big bad leader of those creatures to take their castle back. Good ending!

Alas, it isn't like that. If you have already finished Kenneth's questline before, the whole setup feels weird. With the injustice that had been inflicted on the demihumans by the common soldiers, we already have the seed of doubt regarding the whole righteousness of the situation. As deformed and weird they might look like, demihumans, and therefore misbegottens too, are also people with thoughts and social structures and that maybe using them as mindless workforce is wrong.

Upon reaching the castle's walls, you are faced with a sword memorial, and if you read it you are smacked in the face with another revelation: the castle hasn't been built by irina's family and didn't actually belong to them, but instead has been taken by force by Godfrey's forces after he had slaughtered the previous clan that had it and even its last survivor who had made a desperate last stand in vengeance. Irina's whole narrative suddenly becomes even more shady.

Anyways, you finally enter Castle Morne, and the first sight you stumble upon is an horrific one: hundreds of corpses set in a pile on which several misbegottens are standing triumphantly. On the rampartarts household soldiers and other misbegotten are still fighting. Of course, again, if you take the whole narrative at face value, without reflecting on the sword memorial and Kenneth's questline, you might be still thinking that the whole situation was still black and white. However there are two, definitive moments that shatter that illusion, one more overt, the other less, but still as powerful

The first moment is finding Irina's father, Edgar, the castellan. One would think that, at least, you'd find him surrounded by corpses (i don't say in battle for obvious npc logistic reasons). And yet no. He is alone, sitting in a secluded place of the ramparts, with no signs of battle around.

Then he speaks: we learn respectively three things

-His main goal is to keep the castle (however he doesn't seem like he's done much fighting and only takes action once we go to kill the rebel leader ourselves. Fittingly enough, even fighting him as an invasor is extremely easy), but not because of any strategic importance or sentimental value. No. The reason why he's protecting it is to not permit that the heirloom of the caslte, the grafted blade greatsword, whom was forged by the Hero of Castle Morne as a tool of vengeance and has likely been kept around as a symbol of Godfrey's mightiness for having defeated him. The whole thing comes less as something about honor and more as something about simple vanity, or, better, about keeping intact the superiority of the Golden Order towards his opposers, something that cannot fall in the hands of such things as misbegotten (proof of that is also the ghost of the noble begging to not be eaten by them as he's nobility and doesnt want to get sullied by their lowlyness)

And

-That he is a Godrick loyalist and has been placed in the castle by him (therefore the idea that the family has been living there for long is rendered moot), and 3) that he is sickeningly racist towards misbegotten.

These two last points, now, have made your alarm bells ringing non stop. Maybe if this is the guy who is allied with a man who is known for his cruelty and maybe if he's so hostile against misbegotten, perhaps they had a good reason to rebel like that.

This brings us to the second moment:

After speaking with Edgar, you go in the back of the castle and reach the gaol section of the structure. As we can see, they are dirty, tight, and cramped. But most importantly, we find there a whip, which was specifically built as a way to torture and punish servants for their slightest disobedience. This is the final piece of the puzzle of *what* caused the misbegotten to rebel: not envy or any intrinsical evil, just the hellish condition that they were put in. One really can't blame them for organizing and revolting against their slavers.

You can see the leader of the revolt from afar, sitting in the grave of the hero's clan, having him too become the hero, for he in the name of vengeance for his species treatment started a rebellion.

But in the end, he'll have the same destiny as the Hero Of Morne.

You reach the Leonine Misbegotten and you kill him (perhaps even with the help of his slaveowner!) but the mood after the fight isn't triumphant. You stand alone, light rain is falling, the music is somber, in a massive graveyard dedicated to the one who lost his entire family to the golden order's imperialism, after killing his spiritual successor, perhaps even his descendant. You successfully put down a slave revolt for nothing, as the reason you did all of this, Irina, unbeknownst to you, has already been long dead by the time you take the castle back, killed by the same species whom her family exploited (The name of the site of grace of the graveyard, the Gravemoaning of Morne, really is fitting).

Her death prompts Edgar, the father, the lord of Castle Morne, the slave master, to start his own futile journey of revenge, becoming in the meanwhile too the Hero, bringing the story full circle

[val-of-the-north]

More observations for the trailer I am going insane!!!

I can't claim the original observation of this candle tree detail is mine, but it's from a Japanese Twitter user, here's a screenshot of the post and a link to it as well [x]

The rest of this observation IS mine though, so let's get to it:

With all the talk of cardinal sin, Messmer having a few parallels to Lucifer as pointed out by some friends of mine [x] I have to wonder if he is the cause of a speculated first burning of the Erdtree.

If this is the first time you have heard about this concept, I'll give a short summary. You know how Leyndell is covered in ash by the time we reach it in-game, and how that goes unexplained? We know for a fact that must be the Erdtree's ashes because after we claim the Rune of Death and the Erdtree burns even more, the capital is entombed in it.

We are also told that the Age of Plenty, an age in which the Erdtree gave physical blessings from its sacred sap, swiftly came to a close and the tree had to be changed to simply an object of faith...

So the theory claims that the reason why the Age of Plenty ended so swiftly was due to the Erdtree being set on fire. In theory spaces, the go-to culprit for this speculated action has often been the Gloam-Eyed Queen, with her connections to fire (Blackflame specifically) and Destined Death, but now there's the possibility that this was all Messmer's doing after all. Promotional material and dialogue seems to really denote his affinity for scorching and setting things ablaze.

This probably also means he is the inventor of that scary flame construct that according to Miyazaki as per this interview [x] was an old war machine, no doubt used during this "unsung battle".

Another important part of Messmer's design is the two snakes, which point us back to the Age of Plenty! Godfrey likely ruled during and directly after that time, and the arenas were likely built because of him. It had to be during Godfrey's rule because by the time Radagon became Elden Lord the practices of the colosseums had died down, as told to us by the Ritual Sword and Shield Talismans:

One of the more interesting aspects of the gladiatorial battles that once took place is the snake symbolism on the gladiators' armor.

So the snake was a symbol of a generic "traitor to the Erdtree", and it predated Rykard's blasphemy by an entire age at least... so what if it wasn't generic at all and it represented Messmer himself? He might have been the perpetrator of a betrayal so foul that Marika removed all traces of his existence from her empire's history, but kept the symbol of the snake as a spiteful reminder of him and all other subsequent traitors. After all, she does seem to have power over which one of her children gets remembered or not, and if not her, then the collective of the Golden Order:

Do note that we don't know when she said this. It could have been while she was still at the height of her rule or right before the Shattering. What we do know for a fact is that the soulless demigods inside the Walking Mausoleums have no known history to speak of, which is quite unlike Godwyn, one of the more accomplished members of the family. So yeah, being forgotten by history might be something the Golden Order does to those they deem unfit, so Messmer could be a likely candidate for such treatment... except instead of doing nothing noteworthy he did TOO much lol.

Now I gotta wonder if Marika hated him more or less than her Omen babies. One could argue that locking them down in a sewer close to where she lives was done more as an obligation than any true resentment. She could have sent them to the Shadow Lands if she really wanted them gone and unaccessible, as that place seems filled with Crucible-related things...

I am not saying she was a good mother to them because she didn't kick them to the Shadow Lands, but perhaps she DID have some small affection for them that she really couldn't follow through with.

Of course, maybe she just couldn't banish them anymore after banishing Messmer for whatever reason (maybe she cut-off a connection to that realm?). However, the most likely possibility is that he WAS known like the many soulless demigods and that Mohg and Morgott predate him. It's just that while those two were born undesirable through no fault of their own and were thus only hidden away, he BECAME undesirable which was worse in Marika's eyes so he gets the extra banishment and the removal of all of his history... there are so many possibilities...

[maranull]

I want Loretta to strut into the DLC, smack everyone to their senses and drag Miquella to the Haligtree by the ear

[modeus-the-misanthrope]

Now that the wonderful BonfireVN has made a video showcasing Adult Miquella's body. I can make posts about the only part of Sote Miquey's lore that I care about....the fuck happened to his arm? Is it cause the other one is all shriveled up and hanging out the cocoon in Mogh's Palace, and is serving as a literal gateway into the Lands of Shadow?

Or is that arm representing the physical one he does still have and something else went awry, causing permanent injury to Miquey D here? Outside of being a callback to the Lothric and Lorian fight, what do the ethereal arms and his ability to make those represent? Is it akin to Ranni having a half ghost face, and that Miquella's soul is now in a "New Vessel", implying that he crafted his current form?

[ghostofashina]

"An affair from which gold arose and shadow too was born"

This was clearly about Lands Between and Lands of Shadows, how these two places coexist in different aspects. But also, I think it can give us a nice perspective about Godwyn and Messmer births.

This is just a small theory I made while trying to built up a timeline, because these two births tend to blend into the other and I think it's on purpose. And I know, where Melina fits in this? I still think Melina is one of the youngest of the pack, as a secret weapon of Marika recalling Messmer's kindling being out of her reach, but this is another theory for another post. Now, I'd like to bring a small theory about Godwyn being the child born from the seduction and the betrayal.

SOTE SPOILERS ahead.

We know, for certain, Godfrey was Marika's true first Elden Lord. But, even it being a common sense that Godwyn was their firstborn, there's actually no true evidence claiming he was born before the omen twins. Except that now, after one piece of dialogue in the DLC, can shows us this and a little more.

First things first. Messmer's dad still is the great mystery of Shadow of the Erdtree, and again I think this is on purpose, because considering Godfrey's evidence, the game wants to tell us he was already there when Messmer came to life. And I, personally, don't think neither Radagon or Godfrey are Messmer's father. I think, in a parallel to christian God, sacrificing his son for the sins, Marika birthed Messmer alone — and Melina, that's why they both share a vision of fire and are direct siblings.

According to Marika's own words: "[Radagon] Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a God. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self."

Knowing that Marika comes from the Shaman Village, and that her people was "grafted" to each other in seek of the divine, he is a part she divested herself later in the story and Messmer was some sort of manifestation of this, but not necessarily a child of Radagon.

And I guess we can agree Messmer was born in the Lands of Shadow, because he knows very well the sins committed against his mother and her own modus operandi. He was there before her godhood and that's why Godfrey's offspring got the title of first demigods. And Godfrey, too, was there with Marika since the start.

I won't get into the timeline of events, because it's a mish-mash in game, and I don't have the tools to explore assets and files. But, one thing that the DLC gives importance is the act of a vow. And we know Marika and Godfrey did a vow.

Leaving his past of Hoarah Loux, Godfrey took Serosh upon his shoulders to ease his bloodlust and accept the role when he sworned a vow with Marika to become a Lord. Which can reminds us of the Secret Rite Scroll, found in Shadow Keep.

"A lord will usher in a god's return and the lord's soul will require a vessel."

We can argue here about the roles of vessel and soul, because it feels Godfrey became the vessel to the Beast Regent (some sort of lord), which recalls the amount of lion representation in Hornsent culture. So, I tend to think that Serosh was part of the "betrayal" in order to ascend Marika to godhood with Godfrey as her lord consort.

That's when I imagine Godwyn was born. After the vow, to consumate the idea of Godfrey being named a lord of the golden lineage once Marika achieved godhood and started the Age of Erdtree.

If we recall the Minor Erdtree, left to the matriarch at Shaman Village, it's said:

"Secret incantation of Marika Only the kindness of gold, without Order."

I can see this as Miquella divesting himself of St. Trina, his love. Marika bathed her home in gold, knowing there was nothing left to heal. Alongside with her braid, it was a departing gift, because she was leaving for a new era. She is leaving her kindness of gold, to built the order. Godwyn was her last act of kindness of gold before the Order. That's why we have so many evidences he, alongside Messmer, was her beloved child of gold.

Going deeper, once we advance the questline of Hornsent Grandam, she tell us a very specific dialogue line, that can show us why Godwyn was curseless when he was born, different from his siblings.

She spoke of a omen curse. Curse upon her children, each and all. Messmer as her own flesh and blood, which I believe, carried the grafting curse upon her people over and over again, being a vessel to an outer god "grafting" into Marika's child. But Godwyn was curseless, because he was conceived outside cursing eyes, in secret. He was born of a vow that, once came to common knowledge, was called "the seduction and the betrayal" in the eyes of the Hornsent.

The birth of Godwyn was the start of her ascension to godhood. The affair from which gold (golden lineage, golden order, the golden prince) arose and shadow (abyssal serpent "shorn of light", shadow keep, shadow tree) too was born. And everything about them is represented of golden and shadow. From the eclipse to the golden ring in their symbols (as we see in the Death Knight's cloak or battle axes and alongside Messmer's spear and flame). So, I keep thinking they both were born at Lands of Shadows. One to purge her enemies and protect her kingdom, the other to represent a new era and maintain her glory. Godwyn is the Golden and Messmer is the Order.

[ishaslife]

ELDEN RING theory: Messmer is Radagon and Marika's son ?

Okay okay okay, guys...

Messmer in the new elden ring DLC trailer. I have questions and also some answers. My first thoughts were:

Red hair = Radagon but also, Serpents = God-devouvering Serpent/Rykard but then I paid attention to his dialogue...

I wonder if he is an offshoot or child of Marika and Radagon, he has the golden eyes and the red hair, he's also massive yet he wields red flame (like those of the giants) and Radagon was known to despise his red hair due to red hair being associated with giants (likely hinting that he had giant blood) So, crazy theory but I wonder if Messmer was Radagon and Marika's child before She came into power and he was actually a bit cookoo so his record was basically stripped from the history books. Like, Miyazaki said:

“There was this piece of key art where it shows Messmer sat in this throne-like chair, and people who’ve played the game may recognize this throne to be one of those from the boss room where you battle Morgott. And this represents the thrones at the base of the Erdtree. And it’s supposed to symbolize that Messmer stands on equal footing to these other demigods and children of Marika who sat around in these thrones and held the rooms of the Erdtree.”

Also,

According to Miyazaki, during the DLC we’ll “learn a little about why he wasn’t featured in the legends of the Erdtree, the lands between.”

So, my theory is that he is Radagon and Marika's exiled child. As in his dialogue, he says:

"Mother, woulds't thou truly lordship sanction in one so bereft of light?"

He's basically saying, "Mum [Marika] you really let this dude become lord? A graceless tarnished?"

As to why they exiled him to this land or, as Miyazaki said, "[we'll learn] why he wasn't mentioned in the legends of the Erdtree, the lands between"? I don't really know. Perhaps he represented everything The Greater Will wished to leave behind, i.e. Serpents, dragons (his helm has dragon wings), flame etc.

I like to think that where we're going is the same universe but an alternate dimension which I think Miyazaki has somewhat confirmed so perhaps time passes differently over there.

I don't want to be too concrete in how or when Messmer was born, it could be that he was born while Marika was ruling or perhaps when she was still an Empyrean, he might also be the offshoot created when Marika and Radagon merged (if they weren't always one being.) Perhaps, he is all the bad qualities of Marika and Radagon. The red hair of the giants, the deceitful serpents growing out of him, the flame (probably of the giants) that can burn the erdtree. It's as if they expelled all the faults that didn't align with the nature and principles of the golden order into Messmer and locked him away in another realm.

Hear me out but perhaps the echo Melina tells us in Marika's bed chamber isn't about shattering the elden ring but the moment when Messmer was conceived/made. She says:

"Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a God. Let us be shattered both, mine other self."

At first, I thought she says this to convince him to shatter the elden ring with her but the dialogue can be interpreted in so many ways that even this interpretion might be wrong. Perhaps, her calling Radagon her "other self," has two meanings: one, that he is her male aspect/alter ego and two, he is her other half, like, her significant other. So perhaps this was a conversation between them right when they decided to become one being, splitting from one another whenever they saw fit and their literal shattering of bodies/souls against one another is what gave birth to Messmer. Of course, I don't know the specifics of merging with someone so this just very crazy speculation.

(I suggest don't pay too much credence to this theory above, it's mostly just rambling but it is possible, you never know.)

We know offshoots are a thing since there are Malenia's daughters (Millicent and her sisters) and Malenia was an Empyrean just like her mother so it'd make sense if Marika/Radagon also made an offshoot.

Regardless, one thing (I think at least) I'm fairly certain of is that Messmer is son to Radagon and Marika and that he is also definitely associated with the giants in some way, perhaps decended from them much like Radagon or played some part in their downfall. And I think I'll have to delve even deeper into the dialogue and watch the trailer frame by frame to be able to decipher more lol.

[nightmaresyrup]

Had a dream about the DLC a month ago. I was riding through a palace statue hallway and THIS thing slowly slunk out from a row of pure white marble statues and initiated a boss battle!

Dream is vague, it looks Godskin themed. The palace looks like a HUGE cathedral with beautifully painted walls depicting scenes, I wish to assume god-hunts.

My poor subconscious craves for Elden Ring dlc 😭