#Donatistic

[ignis-cain]

What master was not forced to fear his slave if his slave sought refuge under the protection of the Donatists? Who dared even to threaten a rioter or the instigator of a riot? Who was able to demand a reckoning from a slave who consumed his provisions or from a debtor who asked the Donatists for help and defense? Out of a fear of clubs and fires and imminent death the records of the worst slaves were destroyed so that they might go free. Lists of what they had extorted from creditors were handed over to debtors. Whoever ignored their harsh language was forced by harsher blows to do what they ordered. The homes of the innocent who had offended them were either razed to the ground or destroyed by fires. Some heads of families, men nobly born and well educated, were carried off barely alive after their attacks and chained to a mill stone; they were forced by beatings to make it turn, as it they were mere animals. For what help from the civil authorities was able to do anything against them by means of the laws? What official breathed easily in their presence? What banker was able to demand what they were unwilling to pay? Who tried to avenge those who were slain by their attacks?"

Let’s bring this energy back

(Augustine letter 185.4.15, quoted from Hoover’s The Donatist Church in theApocalyptic Age)

[mybeautifulchristianjourney]

Today in Christian History

Today is Friday, May 3rd, 2024. It is the 124th day of the year in the Gregorian calendar; Because it is a leap year, 242 days remain until the end of the year.

321: Emperor Constantine the Great writes to his representative in North Africa, saying persecution of the Donatists (a Christian sect) must stop.

845: Rothad, bishop of Soissons consecrates Hincmar as Archbishop of Rheims. Hincmar will spend his life in battles to hold his position and in clashes with clergymen and kings to keep the church free of corruption and tyranny—at which he will fail.

1074: Death of Theodosius, a founder of the Kiev Pechersk Lavra (Monastery of the Kiev Caves). With Anthony of the Caves, he had introduced monasticism to Russia.

1679: Assassination of James Sharpe, Archbishop of St Andrew's, on Magus Moor. At one time a Presbyterian and Covenanter, he had joined the Church of England for the sake of advancement and had been made an archbishop. He had proceeded to brutally persecute his former brethren until at last, on this day, a band of Covenanters surround him and stab him to death to end his cruelty.

1784: Death in Philadelphia of Anthony Benezet (pictured above), a Quaker philanthropist and abolitionist.

1829: Nineteen-year-old Andrew Bonar, who will later become an influential minister in the Free Church of Scotland, notes in his journal that he is still out of Christ.

1831: Death of Elizabeth Hervey from dysentery before she could begin mission work in India.

1862: Death in New York City of Nathan Bangs, a Methodist minister and theologian, who had authored many books, including a massive history of Methodism in America. He had also been a successful Methodist publisher.

1878: Death in Winchester of William Whiting, master of Winchester College Choristers’ School. He had written the hymn “Eternal Father, Strong to Save” when one of his students sailed for America in 1860. Later writers added stanzas for submariners, airmen, and other branches of the military.

1989: Five-thousand Dani tribe members in Irian Jaya (Western New Guinea) gather for a two-day pig feast to celebrate the completion and distribution of a Dani-language New Testament.

[kemetic-dreams]

What did Roman Empire pagan soldiers think of fighting under Constantine and Christianity?

Probably not very much.

The Roman military was a world of its own. More than today, soldiers had their very identity shaped by the institution and people they served. Upon enlisting, they swore allegiance to the emperor and received new names as his servants — Valerius during the tetrarchy and Flavius under Constantine. Those who didn’t speak Latin were pushed to acquire a basic grasp of it, pretty much like the French Foreign Legion of today. Starting from the late republican period, Roman soldiers were accustomed to receiving salaries, booty and pensions from their commanders, not the state in an abstract sense. Under the empire, loyalty often lay with the emperor, as long as he was perceived as strong.

In that frame, Constantine never lost the faith of his men thanks to his talents, accomplishments and image. It surely helped that he was Constantius Chlorus’ son, but dynastic feelings were not so strong in the 4th c. What really mattered was that he was a victorious imperator, with plenty of experience both before and after his ascension. His CV included wars against, and victories over, foreigners (Franks, Goths, Alamanni) and rival emperors (Maxentius, Licinius) alike. That kept soldiers satisfied and himself secure on the throne. Besides, Constantine took care to associate his military exploits with the Christian God. On the contrary, his sons failed to live up to his legacy and had to face claims by men like Magnus Magnentius and Julian.

Another thing to consider is the role of religion in the then Roman military. In general, early Christianity wasn’t unanimously for or against military service, hence a decent minority of soliders were Christians even before Constantine. In the late 3rd c., you could find Christians like St. Marcellus holding even the rank of centurion. The statesman Cassius Dio is reported to have spoken of Christians in the comitatus of all four original tetrarchs. Cases of individual disobedience cannot be excluded, of course, but the military was, above all, a state mechanism. Under Diocletian, they persecuted Christians; under Constantine, they fought the Donatists and may have even destroyed the Asclepieion at Aegae, Cilicia.

On his part, Constantine didn’t adopt Christianity the way most people after his time imagine(d). There was a long, gradual process, for the most part inscribed into the norms of late antiquity. Nomenclature and visual language were preserved to a considerable extent. Separate Christian and non-Christian prayers are reported to have been taking place at the same time. At some point in the 320s, a group of veterans greeted Constantine with the traditional “May the gods preserve you for us” salute. Two elite army units, Diocletian’s Jovians and Maximian’s Herculians, were not rebranded, although their names recalled the gods Jupiter and Hercules whom the late tetrarchs associated themselves with.

With the benefit of hindsight, we now know that the dynamics of that complex situation ended up favouring Christianity — if anything, all of Constantine’s successors were Christians except for Julian. That, however, should not be taken out of context. Few have a panoramic view of their time or the acumen to predict the future, and the provincials who made up the bulk of the late Roman military were not among them. Even if they were, though, they may not have had particularly strong feelings about any potential outcome. At the same time, various (quasi-)henotheistic traditions like the cult of Sol Invictus and Mithraism were around. The period was transitional, hence quite fluid.

[aurasium]

Donatus of Bagaï was an ancient Donatist bishop and martyr who declined financial support from the Roman emperor to uphold harmony with the pope.

Donatus replied, “What has the emperor to do with the church?”

Subsequently, the emperor's commissioners ruthlessly slaughtered Donatus' adherents within their basilica, while Donatus himself met his demise by drowning in a well.

CC BY-SA 4.0

[christian-heresies-tournament]

battle 2! descriptions of each below the cut, plus wikipedia links if you would like to read more.

apollinarism: guess what? jesus had a human body, but instead of a human soul, he had the Divine Logos. so he wasn't actually FULLY human, and he had just the one unified nature, instead of the dual nature of being fully god and fully man at the same time.

donatism: for your clergy to provide effective ministry and in order to be able to administer valid sacraments, they have to be completely faultless. your priest recanted under pressure of religious persecution? he can't consecrate the eucharist.

this group arose in the fourth century on carthage. after a period of religious oppression, multiple church officials who had recanted their faith returned to the church. one of those officials consecrated the new bishop of carthage, but the bishop wasn't valid since the guy who consecrated him wasn't valid, and this created a whole chain of formally recognized church authority whose offices were void in the eyes of the donatists--until the sect died out a couple centuries later.

[ewingstan]

Once I finish Ward and finish Umineko and finish Ende’s The Neverending Story and finish The Donatist Church in an Apocalpytic Age and finish Wolfe’s The Sword of the Lictor and finish Borges’ Labrynths and finish Vance’s Tales of the Dying Earth and finish Sade’s 120 Days of Sodom and Other Writings and finish Vandermeer’s The Strange Bird and finish MacGregor’s Henry Darger In the Realms of the Unreal and finish my thesis and finish my phd applications the wedding is BACK ON

[orthodoxydaily]

Saints&Reading: Monday, March 25, 2014

march 12_march25

SAINT GREGORY THE DIALOGIST, POPE OF ROME (604)

Saint Gregory the Dialogist, Pope of Rome, was born in Rome around the year 540. His grandfather was Pope Felix, and his mother Sylvia (November 4) and aunts Tarsilla and Emiliana were also numbered among the saints by the Roman Church. Having received a most excellent secular education, he attained high government positions.

Leading a God-pleasing life, he yearned for monasticism with all his soul. After the death of his father, Saint Gregory used his inheritance to establish six monasteries. At Rome he founded a monastery dedicated to the holy Apostle Andrew the First-Called, where he received monastic tonsure. Later, on a commission of Pope Pelagius II, Saint Gregory lived for a while in Constantinople. There he wrote his Commentary on the Book of Job.

After the death of Pope Pelagius, Saint Gregory was chosen to the Roman See. For seven months he would not consent to accept this service, considering himself unworthy. He finally accepted consecration only after the persistent entreaties of the clergy and flock.

Wisely leading the Church, Saint Gregory worked tirelessly in propagating the Word of God. Saint Gregory compiled the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts in the Latin language, which before him was known only in the verbal tradition. Affirmed by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, this liturgical service was accepted by all the Orthodox Church.

He zealously struggled against the Donatist heresy; he also converted the inhabitants of Brittany, pagans and Goths, who had been adhering to the Arian heresy, to the True Faith.

Saint Gregory has left behind numerous written works. After the appearance of his book, DIALOGUES CONCERNING THE LIFE AND MIRACLES OF THE ITALIAN FATHERS (DIALOGI DE VITA ET MIRACULIS PATRUM ITALIORUM), the saint was called “Dialogus.” His PASTORAL RULE (or LIBER REGULAE PASTORALIS) was well-known. In this work, Saint Gregory describes the model of the true pastor. His letters (848), dealing with moral guidance, have also survived.

Saint Gregory headed the Church for thirteen years, ministering to all the needs of his flock. He was characterized by an extraordinary love of poverty, for which he was granted a vision of the Lord Himself.

As he is known, Pope Saint Gregory the Great died in the year 604, and his relics rest in the cathedral of the holy Apostle Peter in the Vatican.

VENERABLE SYMEON, THE NEW THEOLOGIAN (1022)

Saint Simeon the New Theologian was born in the year 949 in the city of Galatea (Paphlagonia), and he was educated at Constantinople. His father prepared him for a career at court, and for a certain while the youth occupied a high position at the imperial court. When he was fourteen, he met the renowned Elder Simeon the Pious at the Studion Monastery, who would be a major influence in his spiritual development. He remained in the world for several years preparing himself for the monastic life under the Elder’s guidance, and finally entered the monastery at the age of twenty-seven.

Saint Simeon the Pious recommended to the young man the writings of Saint Mark the Ascetic (March 5) and other spiritual writers. He read these books attentively and tried to put into practice what he read. Three points made by Saint Mark in his work “On the Spiritual Law” (see Vol. I of the English Philokalia) particularly impressed him. First, you should listen to your conscience and do what it tells you if you wish your soul to be healed (Philokalia, p. 115). Second, only by fulfilling the commandments can one obtain the activity of the Holy Spirit. Thirdly, one who prays only with the body and without spiritual knowledge is like the blind man who cried out, “Son of David, have mercy upon me” (Luke 18:38) (Philokalia, p. 111). When the blind man received his sight, however, he called Christ the Son of God (John 9:38).

Saint Simeon was wounded with a love for spiritual beauty, and tried to acquire it. In addition to the Rule given him by his Elder, his conscience told him to add a few more Psalms and prostrations, and to repeat constantly, “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me.” Naturally, he heeded his conscience.

During the day, he cared for the needs of people living in the palace of Patricius. At night, his prayers grew longer and he remained praying until midnight. Once, as he was praying in this way, a most brilliant divine radiance descended upon him and filled the room. He saw nothing but light all around him, and he was not even aware of the ground beneath his feet.

It seemed to him that he himself became light. Then his mind rose upward to the heavens, and he saw a second light brighter than the light which surrounded him. Then, on the edge of this second light, he seemed to see Saint Simeon the Pious, who had given him Saint Mark the Ascetic to read.

Seven years after this vision, Saint Simeon entered the monastery. There he increased his fasting and vigilance, and learned to renounce his own will.

The Enemy of our salvation stirred up the brethren of the monastery against Saint Simeon, who was indifferent to the praises or reproaches of others. Because of the increased discontent in the monastery, Saint Simeon was sent to the Monastery of Saint Mamas in Constantinople.

There he was tonsured into the monastic schema, and increased his spiritual struggles. He attained to a high spiritual level, and increased his knowledge of spiritual things through reading the Holy Scriptures and the writings of the Fathers, as well as in conversation with holy Elders.

Around the year 980, Saint Simeon was made igumen of the monastery of Saint Mamas and continued in this office for twenty-five years. He repaired and restored the monastery, which had suffered from neglect, and also brought order to the life of the monks.

The strict monastic discipline, for which Saint Simeon strove, led to great dissatisfaction among the brethren. Once, after Liturgy, some of the monks attacked him and nearly killed him. When the Patriarch of Constantinople expelled them from the monastery and wanted to hand them over to the civil authorities, Saint Simeon asked that they be treated with leniency and be permitted to live in the world.

About the year 1005, Saint Simeon resigned his position as igumen in favor of Arsenius, while he himself settled near the monastery in peace. There he composed his theological works, portions of which appear in the Philokalia.

The chief theme of his works is the hidden activity of spiritual perfection, and the struggle against the passions and sinful thoughts. He wrote instructions for monks: “Theological and Practical Chapters,” “A Treatise on the Three Methods of Prayer,” (in Vol. IV of the English Philokalia) and “A Treatise on Faith.” Moreover, Saint Simeon was an outstanding church poet. He also wrote “Hymns of Divine Love,” about seventy poems filled with profound prayerful meditations.

The sublime teachings of Saint Simeon about the mysteries of mental prayer and spiritual struggle have earned him the title “the New Theologian.” These teachings were not the invention of Saint Simeon, but they had merely been forgotten over time.

Some of these teachings seemed unacceptable and strange to his contemporaries. This led to conflict with Constantinople’s church authorities, and Saint Simeon was banished from the city. He withdrew across the Bosphorus and settled in the ancient monastery of Saint Makrina.

The saint peacefully fell asleep in the Lord in the year 1021. During his life he received the gift of working miracles. Numerous miracles also took place after his death; one of them was the miraculous discovery of his icon.

His Life was written by his cell-attendant and disciple, Saint Nicetas Stethatos.

Since March 12 falls during Great Lent, Saint Simeon’s Feast is transferred to October 12.

ISAIAH 4:2-5:7

2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious; And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing For those of Israel who have escaped. 3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among Jerusalem's people. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory, there will be a covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, a place of refuge, and a shelter from storm and rain.

1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst and also made a winepress in it. He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? 5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned, And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, but briers and thorns shall come

. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it.” 7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold oppression; For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

GENESIS 3:21-4:7

21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. 22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.” 2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. 6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 “If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

[fac-romam-iterum-magna]

Imagine hetalia characters having a parent-like relationship with their first leader

Like a very young france listening at night near a fire to clovis's stories about his grand-father mérovée.

or greece being physically 8 year old and arguing with constantine I about the gestion of the donatist crisis

A small Iran being a little shit acting all smug in front of lydia and then hiding behind cyrus the great before he gets caught

[catenaaurea]

The Roman Catechism

Part Two: The Sacraments

THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION

Importance Of Instruction On Confirmation

If ever there was a time demanding the diligence of pastors in explaining the Sacrament of Confirmation, in these days certainly it requires special attention, when there are found in the holy Church of God many by whom this Sacrament is altogether omitted; while very few seek to obtain from it the fruit of divine grace which they should derive from its participation.

Lest, therefore, this divine blessing may seem, through their fault, and to their most serious injury, to have been conferred on them in vain, the faithful are to be instructed both on Whitsunday, on which day it is principally administered, and also on such other days as pastors shall deem convenient. Their instructions should so treat the nature, power, and dignity of this Sacrament, that the faithful may understand not only that it is not to be neglected, but that it is to be received with the greatest piety and devotion.

Name of this Sacrament

To begin with the name, it should be taught that this Sacrament is called by the Church Confirmation because, if there is no obstacle to the efficacy of the Sacrament, a baptized person, when anointed with the sacred chrism by the Bishop, with the accompanying solemn words: I sign thee with the sign of the cross, and confirm thee with the chrism of salvation, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, becomes stronger with the strength of a new power, and thus begins to be a perfect soldier of Christ.

Confirmation is a Sacrament

That in Confirmation is contained the true and proper nature of a Sacrament has always been acknowledged by the Catholic Church, as Pope Melchiades and many other very holy and very ancient Pontiffs expressly declare. The truth of this doctrine St. Clement could not confirm in stronger terms than when he says: All should hasten without delay to be born again unto God, and afterwards to be signed by the Bishop, that is, to receive the sevenfold grace of the Holy Ghost; for, as has been handed down to us from St. Peter, and as the other Apostles taught in obedience to the command and of our Lord, he who culpably and voluntarily, and not from necessity, neglects to receive this Sacrament, cannot possibly be a perfect Christian. This same faith has been confirmed, as may be seen in their decrees, by Popes Urban, Fabian and Eusebius, who, filled with the same spirit, shed their blood for the name of Christ.

The unanimous authority of the Fathers must be added. Among them Denis the Areopagite, Bishop of Athens, when teaching how to consecrate and make use of this holy ointment, says: The priests clothe the person Baptised with a garment emblematic of purity, in order to conduct him to the Bishop; and the Bishop, signing him with the sacred and truly divine ointment, makes him partaker of the most holy communion. Of such importance does Eusebius of Caesarea also deem this Sacrament as not to hesitate to say that the heretic Novatus could not deserve to receive the Holy Ghost, because, having been baptised in a state of severe illness, he was not anointed with the sign of chrism. But on this subject we have the most distinct testimonies from St. Ambrose in his book On the Initiated, and from St. Augustine in his books Against the Epistles of Petilian the Donatist.

Both of them were so persuaded that no doubt could exist as to the reality of this Sacrament that they even taught and confirmed the doctrine by passages of Scripture, the one testifying that to the Sacrament of Confirmation apply these words of the Apostle: Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed; the other, these words of the Psalmist: Like the precious ointment on the head, that ran down upon the beard, the beard of Aaron, and also these words of the same Apostle: The charity of God is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us.

Confirmation is Distinct from Baptism

Although said by Melchiades to have a most intimate connection with Baptism, Confirmation is still not to be regarded as the same, but as a very different Sacrament; for the variety of the grace which each of the Sacraments confers, and of the sensible sign employed to signify that grace, evidently render them distinct and different Sacraments.

Since, then, by the grace of Baptism we are begotten unto newness of life, whereas by that of Confirmation we grow to full maturity, having put away the things of a child, we can sufficiently understand that the same difference that exists in the natural life between birth and growth exists also between Baptism, which regenerates, and Confirmation, by virtue of which growth and perfect spiritual strength are imparted to the faithful.

Besides, as there should be a new and distinct kind of Sacrament when the soul has to encounter any new difficulty, it may easily be perceived that as we require the grace of Baptism to form the mind unto faith, so is it also of the utmost advantage that the souls of the faithful be strengthened by a different grace, to the end that they be deterred by no danger, or fear of pains, tortures or death, from the confession of the true faith. This, then, being accomplished by the sacred chrism of Confirmation, it is hence clearly inferred, that the nature of this Sacrament is different from Baptism.

Hence Pope Melchiades accurately evolves the difference between them, writing as follows: In Baptism man is enlisted into the service, in Confirmation he is equipped for battle; at the baptismal font the Holy Ghost imparts fullness to accomplish innocence, but in Confirmation he ministers perfection to grace; in Baptism we are regenerated unto life, after Baptism we are fortified for the combat; in Baptism we are cleansed, after Baptism we are strengthened; regeneration of itself saves those who receive Baptism in time of peace, Confirmation arms and makes ready for conflicts.

These are truths not only already recorded by other Councils, but specially defined by the holy Council of Trent; so that we are therefore no longer at liberty not only to think otherwise, but even to entertain the least doubt concerning them.

Institution of Confirmation

It was shown above how necessary it is to teach concerning all the Sacraments in common from whom they had their origin. Wherefore the same is also to be taught as regards Confirmation, in order that the faithful may be impressed with a deeper sense of the sanctity of this Sacrament. Accordingly, pastors must explain that not only was it instituted by Christ the Lord, but that by Him were also ordained, as Pope St. Fabian testifies, the rite of chrism and the words which the Catholic Church uses in its administration. This is a fact easy to prove to those who acknowledge Confirmation to be a Sacrament, because all the sacred mysteries exceed the powers of human nature and could be instituted by no other than God alone.

[thepastisalreadywritten]

SAINT OF THE DAY (June 4)

The church remembers St. Optatus on June 4.

As a convert from paganism, he is best known for his opposition to the heresy of Donatism and his six treatises composed against them.

One of them, against Parmenian, is still extant. It was mentioned by St. Jerome in his De Viris Illustribus as having been composed in six books.

The treatise stresses the need for unity and is conciliatory in tone, but it criticizes Donatist teachings on Baptism. It stresses that the Church cannot be limited to Africa but is “catholic.”

Optatus was highly praised by such contemporaries as Augustine and Fulgentius of Ruspe.

He died in 387 A.D. as Bishop of Milevis, Numidia, in Africa.

[ainews]

In the 7th century, the idea of “Donatism” emerged as a schismatic Christian group in North Africa. At the heart of the Donatist beliefs was a restriction on church membership - they believed that only those living a blameless life should be part of the Church. Over the centuries, this has led to an interesting correlation between the Donatists and cattle.

Cows, especially in traditional African societies, are seen as living symbols of hard work and dedication. Ancient Donatists believed that such a hardworking and committed lifestyle could be exemplified by only those who worked the fields. Seeing cow herding as an honorable activity, cows became a symbol of Donatism.

More recently, there has been a focus on the link between Donatism and timber. Donatists have realized that it is better to invest in timber rather than in cattle, as it provides both a financial return and environmental benefits. For example, re-growing timber (as opposed to cattle) helps to keep soil erosion under control.

Not only does investing in timber benefit the environment, it also helps to create jobs in rural areas, which in turn helps to elevate these communities’ standard of living. Ultimately, these investments have made Donatists one of the most successful agricultural communities in Africa.

Thus, cows are seen as Donatist symbols of hard work and commitment to an ideal, and investing in timber allows Donatists to uphold their beliefs while creating jobs and nurturing their environment.

[ignis-cain]

tag 9 people to get to know better

tagged by @burn-throughout-eternity

3 ships: Wolfspider, ..., (hm, there must be others), ..., uhhh griddlehark and rosemary? Saying you "ship" a canonical pairing seems like a misuse of the term but they both have ship names so I guess they work

First ever ship: If I try to seriously answer this then you'll have to read several pages of analysis of the term "ship" and what it does and doesn't apply to. None of which will be at all accurate for anyone who actually engages in fandom. So to simplify things lets just say rosemary.

Last song: "Tripoli" by Pinback. Its a rainy day, kind of suits the mood.

Last movie: My local arthouse theater was showing The Holy Mountain, saw it on a whim. It's pretty good. Certainly a few very memorable scenes. I will say that while I'm not a fan of the "dude how HIGH do you have to even BE etc etc" response to weird art, I probably was not in the intended headspace to fully appreciate it.

Currently reading: Oh lord. Okay gonna limit this to what I've actually picked up the past week. I've gotten to the second chapter of Umineko, I'm on 9.4 of Ward, I'm still working my way through "The Donatist Church in an Apocalyptic Age," I've just finished "Sword of the Lictor" in the Book of the New Sun series and am starting "Citadel of the Autarch," I'm making good progress on Borges' "Labrynths," and I've just started a book on Henry Darger that is way too psychoanalytical for me to take as a good piece of scholarship but is nonetheless interesting to read through. Oh and a bunch of the scholarship on Hardwig's "Duty to Die" argument and its various counters.

I probably need to sit down and just finish one of these. I'm not gonna though

Currently watching: I've been watching JJBA on and off for a bit, currently in early part 4.

Currently consuming: My third drink from the same teabag.

Currently craving: Lentils over rice and beans.

Tagging: @lakesbian @artbyblastweave @glowspider @ball-lightning @greatwyrmgold @yugonostalgia2019 @n0brainjustvibes @selamat-linting @theamberarchive (ignore if you're not interested and if you are interested but weren't tagged consider yourself tagged!)

[mybeautifulchristianjourney]

Today in Christian History

Today is Wednesday, May 3rd, the 123rd day of 2023. There are 242 days left in the year.

Today’s Highlight in History:

321: Emperor Constantine the Great writes to his representative in North Africa, saying persecution of the Donatists (a Christian sect) must stop.

845: Rothad, bishop of Soissons consecrates Hincmar as Archbishop of Rheims. Hincmar will spend his life in battles to hold his position and in clashes with clergymen and kings to keep the church free of corruption and tyranny—at which he will fail.

1679: Assassination of James Sharpe, Archbishop of St Andrew's, on Magus Moor. At one time a Presbyterian and Covenanter, he had joined the Church of England for the sake of advancement and had been made an archbishop. He had proceeded to brutally persecute his former brethren until at last, on this day, a band of Covenanters surround him and stab him to death to end his cruelty.

1784: Death in Philadelphia of Anthony Benezet, a Quaker philanthropist and abolitionist.

1829: Nineteen-year-old Andrew Bonar, who will later become an influential minister in the Free Church of Scotland, notes in his journal that he is still out of Christ.

1831: Death of Elizabeth Hervey from dysentery before she could begin mission work in India.

1862: Death in New York City of Nathan Bangs, a Methodist minister and theologian, who had authored many books, including a massive history of Methodism in America. He had also been a successful Methodist publisher.

1878: Death in Winchester of William Whiting, master of Winchester College Choristers’ School. He had written the hymn “Eternal Father, Strong to Save” when one of his students sailed for America in 1860. Later writers added stanzas for submariners, airmen, and other branches of the military.

1989: Five-thousand Dani tribe members in Irian Jaya (Western New Guinea) gather for a two-day pig feast to celebrate the completion and distribution of a Dani-language New Testament.

[antiquatedabsurdity]

There's something deeply absurb about those figures in history (mainly powerful generals) who behave like "everything I do, I do to serve my lord/emperor/king/khan/insert leaderly title," and then their supposed overlord is some six year old child whose predecessor was probably murdered by that same general.

Ah, yes, it is the baby who commands the empire. The baby is absolutely leading the legions into battle. The baby is masterfully negotiating with the Eastern Khaghanate. I'm sure the baby, with their profound grasp of Christian theology, is a staunch opponent of the Donatist Heresy. All hail the baby.

[saint-ambroses-bees]

@argument-side-blog cause I can’t reblog your post for whatever reason

"You’re missing the entire point of my argument. I am not saying that catholicism is right."

No, in that case, it is actually YOU who is missing the point of MY argument. Because if you cannot respond to the multiple different places where I've challenged the false teachings, evil deeds and inherent corruption of the Catholic Church, whatever else you might have to say is basically pointless.

That’s not what we’re discussing. This evidence is irrelevant in the context of the question of whether Augustine is catholic or not. This evidence is redundant because you’ve sent it to me before. I am getting to it, but this post is about Saint Augustine. Please start a new one if you’d like to discuss something on an entirely different topic

It's like saying "Yeah sure, we allied with the nazis, raped kids and lied about the origin of our authority to do these things, but my guy Augustine over here said it's cool!"

why is this relevant

We can talk about the evils that come from the people in the church, but why are we talking about it on a post about what saint augustine believes

Send me an ask or something to start another thread about a different topic if you want to talk about a different topic

So even setting aside the fact that your argument is factually wrong and you have de facto already surrendered the debate by agreeing that the overwhelming majority of what I've said is true,

How the hell is my argument factually wrong? I presented things that Augustine has said that contradict what you said. I did say some stuff about Tradition, but that’s irrelevant in the context of the question of whether Augustine is catholic or not. What did I agree with that you take as a surrendering of debate?

even if we say your supposed defense of Augustine is valid, why would I even care?

You’re literally a Christian my guy you’re supposed to look for the truth

In that case Augustine should just spend eternity in a dark place with the rest of the Catholics.

You’re literally a Christian my guy you’re supposed to love your enemy

"You also argued that Augustine believed in sola scriptura so i responded with citations of primary texts in which he says that Tradition is actually good, which as far as i know is a no-no with sola scriptura, so i did respond to your argument"

You quoted a few things he said, giving no context to when, where or to whom he said them, and then you mic dropped as if that proved your argument. You provided no sources and only minimal rhetorical support for your claim.

Did you read my post

I linked the primary texts

I gave instructions on where to look

But sure, here you go:

"For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it! Matthew 16:18 The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these:— Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius."

This quote is given in the context of Augustine writing to a friend who received a letter from a donatist. This specific Donatist apparently rejected the See because of corruption (donatists believed that ministers had to be sinless for sacraments to work or something) and Augustine spoke about the succession in the donatist’s city and then in Rome. He calls back to Apostolic succession in this quote.

Translated by J.G. Cunningham. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 1. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. <http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102053.htm>.

"For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue; would that their error may sometime be brought to an issue too!"

This quote is from a sermon on which Saint Augustine speaks on the line ‘unless you eat the flesh’; at the end (that which is quoted) he says that the Apostolic See gets the final say, and that we should listen to the end which Rome comes to.

Translated by R.G. MacMullen. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 6. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. <http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/160381.htm>.

"As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established."

This quote is from a letter to a friend who is wondering why different dioceses have different traditions (little t traditions, not Sacred Tradition). Augustine states at the beginning that certain things are permanent because of Scripture and Tradition, and that things like fasting on certain days are not necessarily bound by either.

Translated by J.G. Cunningham. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 1. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. <http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102054.htm>.

I could quote and explain the other ones, but the important part is that they mention Tradition as a source of authority. Continuing

In my original post, I quoted Augustine (keeping in mind that you have not disputed the quote itself),

Yes i did

Multiple times

I explicitly said that the paragraph you quoted actually says the opposite of what you say it says twice now

gave contextual explanation of why I felt the quote supported my view of the situation,

it doesn’t

then cited several additional sources which also presented the same thesis with additional supporting facts.

Here's the thing, not only did you misunderstand the quote by not reading the entire passage, but Augustine clearly elsewhere relies on Tradition as a source of authority. All he says in this passage, which btw, I have said like eight times now, is that we should be skeptical of anything new that we read. He also says that we can use the opinions of others that we know to be true because of divine help to see whether something is right or not. You quoted something that actively argues against your own point.

Sorry, but I'm going to say that my original argument still stands, even aside from the fact that your rebuttal was irrelevant.

You didn’t read my rebuttal

"I’ve hit at least two links that lead to a page that says there’s nothing to be found"

Then you are either lying or there is a technical problem on your end, because as I said, I double checked every single link I provided and they all worked. Either way, not my fault.

Technical problem I think. I can no longer see your blog. Sometimes tumblr lets me see your posts and sometimes it says they don’t exist

"These are massive questions..."

It isn't a question. There are no questions here. I haven't asked you a question.

Did you read the sentence before that one??? I said it in reference to the article which you sent me? It contains many questions about what tradition is. I imagine if you sent me the article that you wanted me to be concerned with its substance?

I gave you evidence that the Catholic Church is evil and that it has lied about it's pedigree. You can agree that I'm right, or you can explain how I'm wrong.

Fantastic. How does this coincide with Augustine’s being catholic. Because this is what this post is about, isn’t it?

And as you did in this latest response, you have mostly agreed that the majority of my argument is factually accurate.

What does that prove? Majority is not entirety.

You have only "disagreed" to a limited extent by either quoting Augustine or by making some vague philosophical objections.

It’s not vague, it’s broad. Ask narrower questions and I’ll give narrower answers.

If this debate were being judged by an outside party, I think it is safe to say they wouldn't be voting for you at this point.

It’s a good thing truth isn’t democratic isn’t it

"We literally agree with this"

See what I mean?

Because we do?

"Tradition is only Tradition if it agrees with scripture If it doesn’t, it’s not Tradition"

That isn't actually what the Catholic Church teaches or says.

Yes it does CCC 80 they must flow out of the same stream, they must be in agreement

According to the Catholic Church, it's clerics, priests, popes, etc, can write new rules and traditions at any time and those writings are given equal weight as scripture.

nope

If the new traditions and other church doctrines appear to conflict with scripture, rather than answering those contradictions, Catholics merely say things like "we wrote the bible so we know what it means" or "only the church has authority to interpret scripture."

No we don’t

Catholics never explain or defend their interpretation of scripture beyond invoking their exclusive authority, which is the circular reasoning which I cited earlier.

Yes we do

The Catholic Church also plays shell games with the supposed "infallibility" of the Pope, as I have previously pointed out.

The pope is not the same entity as the church, you realize this right? The pope has free will and can be a sinner if he so chooses. This is why there’s this specific regulation in place.

And I do not see how Augustine, having explicitly said that laypersons had every right to question so-called church authorities, would support such blatant abuse of power. Not that I care what Augustine thinks either way, but I remain unconvinced that he would support the obvious heresy and hypocrisy which is the modern day Roman Catholic Church.

How about the passage i quoted where he says that rome gets the final say and that we should listen to rome

"You assume that I don't have a life... Be patient."

I don't make assumptions about you, other than that you are Catholic and that you seem unable to explain where my arguments are wrong. And considering both of those assumptions are supported by the available facts, I believe they are justified assumptions.

It’s very difficult to read anything you send from a practical standpoint because every link leads to eighteen other links which in turn lead to even more and so on and so on and so on

So yes, i am not unable to explain that your arguments are wrong, i am unable to read a huge collection of arguments in a short time period. It takes me hours to get through a single article from the summa. There is a difference.

I have a life too. And Reformation Day is over. I've got other stuff to do this week, including preparing for Pope Night as my next Catholic bashing holiday of choice.

Glad you’re keeping up with your hobbies

And since this is my post and my blog, I'm going to invoke home rule

You invited me to this particular post, I say be hospitable (and rational).

and say you need to play by my rules and my timetable. If you haven't got a response because you need to go "research" more, so be it.

I know you’d like me to say stupid shit so you can go oh look stupid catholics but actually no i’m not gonna do that

What possible reason would you have to restrict someone to a specific timetable in an internet debate? If we were talking in person and I sat down for four days, sure. But we aren’t. So why?

[redhairedlesbians]

we wake up on a cold november morning.

i feel your breath as an intercesor feels jesus. a donatist christ, and an ascetic cold cave walls.

it is a hidden mortuary. i have laid your bones as relics in my gold plated reliquary.

i drink from your lips as judas does wine.