#Critical role spoilers

[zhellers]

It is awake and it is angry

[shellem15]

Now I'm just imagining a mortal gods scenario where braius just. Refuses to leave Asmodeus alone. You promised him family, and now you better pay up, bud. You've got a hopeless romantic cow man trailing behind you like a lost puppy, and no matter how many rocks you throw at him, he won't go away. I love toxic yaoi.

[shadydruid]

Imogen Temult, lvl 3 and lvl 13!

Now that the Bells Hells campaign is nearly over, how are you feeling? Which campaign is your favorite and why?

I personally still love C2. The stakes were not as high as in C3, it had a focus on personal stories and all of the characters had equal amount of time to shine. I didn't fall for all of them immediately, but ended up loving every and each member of Mighty Nein.

Unfortunately, it didn't happen with Bells Hells for me. For example, I still feel like I don't really know Ashton.

Final Boss battle will be epic, though! I'm sure of it. Can't wait to see what Critical Role have for us next!

[bjarkanart]

This is probably going to disappoint some people but I can't seem to draw full on monster characters, so I took some liberties even after seeing the Predathogen mini cause I still wanted to draw her and pretty happy with the result!

I also made a black and white version if anyone's curious!

[princeofassassins]

I disagree with this framing of Vax's feelings as him being 100% inflexible about his role with the matron. Before his behavior with her could be read as that, but he has directly stated that he also wishes he could go back, its mainly that he doesnt want to go back on a promise.

The results of what happens with the gods, informs how his fate tied to the raven queen will end up, whether he gets a leave of absence, is still tied to her after de-deification, or she is consumed. His main character trait is wanting to be some reliable, someone who can help others, and lighten the mood. In his old life he sought to be a breath of fresh air, a bit of an impish prankster, someone who wanted to enjoy the fruits of life and encourage others to share them with him.

I don't think resurrecting Vax is overriding Vax's desires as he clearly would like to return to his life but his strong sense of moral obligation means that unless circumstances change he wont consider it. He wont agree to them tricking the Raven Queen or utilizing a loophole to bring him back unless he either has her blessing or his duties are done/taken up by another. That doesn't mean he's anti revival under any circumstances.

Plus we've seen Keyleth struggle over being happy that Vax is back for one more night, despite the Raven Queen granting him a temporary respite. She has clearly been going through it, and what seemed like a sweet gesture with the ravens he sent, are something that prevents her from moving on. She wants finality to move past this schrodinger's mourning period. Either Vax becomes part of her life from now on or she needs to extinguish the possibility of it happening.

Even so despite Keyleth having a lot of negative bias toward the Raven, even if it has subsided over time, she still doesn't try to beg or plead with Vax to ignore the Raven Queen. She understands his sense of honor amongst this and doesn't to force him to go against his own beliefs. The same attitude is true of Vex, although to some extent she's more willing to try and pester him about it in a sisterly way. I dont think either of them would make a concerted effort to influence Vax against his own desires for their own benefit. And If Vax returns, it will be in a way where he is making his own choice and liking sticking to his word to the Raven Queen.

I think I pinned down what bothers me the *most* about the "Free Vax from the Raven Queen" sentiment, including from the characters in the game (only because of how I see their in-character arguments being used in discussions). It boils down to the fact that people do not listen to what Vax himself says that he wants. He's said it multiple times, if you listen! And I understand why Keyleth and Vex kind of brush it aside (because they miss him and if they accepted this is his choice they would have to accept that they're angry at him for choosing it), but seeing so many arguments from the fandom to the effect of "Keyleth is sad, they need to fix it!" ignores Vax's agency in the situation by putting Keyleth's wants above his, and also says that Keyleth should be protected from having to actually deal with her grief.

Resurrecting Vax and having them live out Vax's remaining years together without consequence (because no matter what, she *will* outlive him by about ten times over) would not "cheapen" the story of his sacrifice, because that's not how stories work, but it would say that Keyleth's wants and values and needs are more valuable and important than Vax's.

Resurrecting Vax for Keyleth is akin to Deanna being resurrected for her husband. One person's choices are being placed above another's.

[predathos-the-godeater]

Oh great god-eater, what say you on the allegations that you’re the same as a god, only bigger?

Signed, a devoted but concerned member of the Ruby Vanguard

Psshhhh whaaaat? That's crazy, girl...

If I was a god, wouldn't I have my own followers putting their faith in me? Wait

Wouldn't I have priests to do my bidding, to give guidance to my followers, telling them how to live and what to believe?

.... Nevermind that. If I was a god, wouldn't I give powers to mortals to help them achieve my goals?

. . .

How dare you question me.

I am P r e d a t h o s. I eat the divine. I swallow gods whole and leave not even a memory. I am the Realm of the Forgotten, the Emptiness after e v e r y t h i n g .

I am the God at the end of the Pantheon and- strike that last part, forget you saw that

[eternalmomentss]

So, the Hells need to talk to the gods to convince them and that means I could have Dorian face Lolth? The goddess that flinched at him? I could have him perhaps just maybe absolutely own her. Pretty please?

[fairy-bard]

something about dorian having to beg his father for trust in his strength. something about dorian being the one to save imogen’s mom. something about dorian being the one to destroy predathos’s form. something

[mayapapaya33]

Well, I haven't read the origins comic yet, so I'll take your word for that. Some of the comic stuff is a bit wibbly on canon so I'm not sure if I do take it as campaign canon really, but I'll just go with it for the purposes of this conversation. (The fact that she never once mentions being run out of town by Yeza in the campaign makes that a little weird but sure ok. It also feels a little retconny to brush over her major fear that her family would reject her even if they DID know it was her under the curse, which was what was implied to be a big reason she stayed away in the campaign, in favor of it being because they DID chase her away based purely on what she looked like before she could say anything. It feels...strange. I'm not sure how I feel about it, I'll have to think about it. It just feels like after the fact justification of her staying away from them to me, but oh well. LET WOMEN BE FLAWED 2025! lol I am eventually going to get my hands on all of the origins comics, I just haven't done so yet.)

My point wasn't really a moral argument about Veth and Lilliana having done equally bad things in the world, obviously that's not true. I could have said It better, but I guess I just thought that was obvious and I was tired? lol, silly me. So to make it clearer: Veth is a hero who helped save the world, and Liliana fell in with a cult and did terrible things under the woefully misguided belief she was doing the right thing. I'm more saying I could see Veth turning out like Liliana if things went differently and their initial act of abandonment is fundamentally similar. Also, it's not just the hag thing btw, that was just the most obvious and memorable example I could reference and know everyone would know what I was talking about without writing a 5 page essay and hunting down obscure time stamps lol.

Another example was her stance in that discussion about justice and vengeance from ep 98 (26:26) with Caduceus. Cad basically said: Hey, going after criminals in the Empire sounds great if you can be smart about it, but if you're just doing it to make yourself feel better, I don't really see the point of that, so maybe don't because you'll probably restart the war if you aren't extremely careful. And Veth's response was very understandable from her characters pov, but makes me think that, yeah, in the right circumstances, she'll do what she wants, when she wants, and damn the consequences and it won't be about justice, it'll be about making herself feel good and she'll find the internal justification she needs to. "You can stand by -You can just watch bad people get away with it?" If the price of stopping one bad person is reigniting a WAR, um yeah, I can Veth. He's basically saying, don't cause more problems than you are going to fix by your actions, and interrogate your motivations and she wasn't having it. I think he might have gotten through to her in the end but I'm not sure because they "dissolved" using mouth sounds and hand waving into the next scene of Jester finding Marion.

There are many things that make me think this about her. Anger and desperation can cause people to make poor decisions. (I think you might have misconstrued the one bit where I was debating whether letting your family think you were dead and staying gone or just saying goodbye and abandoning them was actually worse or not, I personally vote dead being worse but I'm genuinely not sure, like I said. So, in that one aspect I think Veth's worse, but not for everything lol. The misguided hope left behind from what Liliana did might be worse.)

My point was that they both abandoned their families in order to solve a problem. Yes, Liliana left "voluntarily" right from the start in the sense that she wasn't kidnapped by goblins and transformed against her will, her "against her will change" was foisted upon her by a God Eater trapped in moon jail instead. She was essentially kidnapped by her own powers, she couldn't control them and needed to figure out what they were and how to deal with them. So yes, it was a choice for her to leave as you so aptly pointed out, just not quite as voluntary a choice as people keep presenting it as. I suppose it's more accurate for me to say it was Liliana's choice to leave, and Veth's choice to STAY gone (yes, even with the addition of the comic lore).

Don't you remember early campaign Imogen constantly having to be careful and worried about her telepathy? How it hurt her to be in large crowds? How her town DID treat her like garbage, like a pariah, "like an outright monster" even. It's not like Liliana left for fun. She was scared she was going to hurt someone if she didn't learn how to control herself, and worried that Imogen would develop those powers too. (That was her initial reasoning, and then things devolved of course). You said it yourself; The Grim Verity was taking too long, and she wanted to go home so she fell in with Ludinus and co because he promised answers and a solution.

Veth's initial separation from her family OBVIOUSLY wasn't her fault, and apparently in the comics she tried to go home and was run off for looking like a goblin. Well, that truly sucks for Comic Book Veth and she has my sympathy. There are still a variety of things she could have done, including once she befriended Caleb enough where she trusted him, have him go to Yeza in person and explain the curse and everything while she hid at the outskirts of town. She could have told Caleb a bunch of things only Veth would know to help convince Yeza, Etc.

At a certain point, Veth's Choice to stay away from her family was just as voluntary as Liliana's. She could have tried (or tried again if comics are canon) at any time, and she didn't. The problem wasn't solved so they "couldn't" go home and then events spiraled. Again, they aren't the same, I just think their situations parallel each other interestingly. Becoming "not a goblin" was not the only way for Veth to reunite with her family. It's perfectly understandable that she thought that it was considering all of her trauma and her shame and her fear, but that doesn't make it true. It was still an active choice that she made to not try to reunite with her family until she looked "normal" again, even once her circumstances had changed and she could have had help. She didn't try because she didn't want her family seeing her like that and because she was scared of what they would think. (Again, very understandable, but still a choice). What if Caleb couldn't find a way to change her back into a halfling? Would she never have gone home, continuing to look for a solution?

Liliana "couldn't" go home until she understood and could control her powers, a reasonable yet tragic decision, which then spiraled into it being that she "couldn't" go home until she helped "save" the world from the tyranny of the Gods, etc. Somewhat less reasonable I think you'll agree. How long does Veth's decision to not try (or not try again) to reunite with her family until she's no longer a goblin remain reasonable? One year? Five years? Ten years? It was a combination of luck and hard work that got her a new body as relatively fast as she did. Caleb and Essek meeting and becoming magic bffs might never have happened without Caleb's "I'm never going back to jail" moment in the Bright Queen's throne room for example lol.

More than all of that though, I'm not a huge fan of Veth's parenting while she IS present in Luc's life but seeing as Liliana hasn't really been present in Imogen's life for more than like a month, that's about where any parallels or comparisons stop lmfao. A lot of Veth's bad parenting once she's back in Luc's life is also due to the fact that Sam Riegel is a comedian first and an actor second so if he sees an opportunity to be funny, he'll pounce. Which unfortunately for poor Veth, does mean that if you look at her with a sober eye she comes across as a dreadful parent. Hilarious of course, but I did end up feeling bad for Yeza whenever I saw him futilely trying to be responsible whenever the M9 came trampling through their lives being bad influences. Honestly, she wonders why teenage Luc is like that! I learned it from watching you mom!

If the Good Moms of Critical Role ever learn about the shit Liliana's pulled it's on sight 😤

[athenasplan]

"I've always liked you, little one. And I'm gonna steal your boyfriend"

Braius is so messy I ADORE him

[mayapapaya33]

You know what would be hilarious; at some point down the line in C4, C5, C27, whenever, someone should play a character from Whitestone. But just a normal person from Whitestone. (Or as normal as an adventurer can ever be, they do have to have SOME kind of damage of course). Don't get me wrong, my haunted, gothic, Byronicly tragic PC's are my favorites of all time, but I just think finding out that a tanned, healthy, fresh looking 20 something with their shit together who has living parents and siblings who love them and who they have a good relationship with just so happens to have been born and raised in Whitestone would be very funny.

It's the future. Sylas and Delilah were driven from Whitestone 33+ years ago as of C3 so imagine a future campaign where one of the characters has only ever known the peaceful leadership of the council and Cassandra, Percy, and Vex, or even of Vesper if it's far enough into the future. The thing that led them to a life of adventure has to be COMPLETELY separate and irrelevant to them being from Whitestone.

Now Whitestone is definitely still a weird, haunted place to grow up even in a time of peace so they should be a little strange regardless. But it should be a different, much less traumatized flavor of weird, you get me? They should have extensive knowledge of vampires and necromancers and gun safety because that was mandatory training at school or whatever. They should feel at home in a haunted wood. Shit like that lol.

It would also be a very sweet and intimate long-term way of showing the impact of their success on the world, that Whitestone is just a (mildly haunted) place to live with ordinary people living ordinary lives and non-necromantic bad things can befall them, propelling them into a life of adventure. For instance, maybe a beloved sibling falls deathly ill (Of natural causes), and they make a deal for the power to save them, etc. That's separate AND has fun parallels to Whitestone history.

[shinraalpha]

fucking hell they've perceived me lads

cast reaction to Matt placing this week's "mini" on the battlefield lmao tag yourself i'm Travis

[ivanovaisalwaysright]

Accusations of this plan coming out of nowhere are funny to me because it wouldn't have made any sense to come up with the idea of the gods going mortal before this episode.

Before now one of the things they were worried about was predathos eating and killing exandrians aswell as or instead of the gods if it couldn't get to them.

Only after Imogen joined with it and saw it can't even see mortals let alone hunger for them does it make sense to suggest this, and she comes up with the idea because of Downfall and seeing the gods do it before, so hardly out of no where.

[averytiredchild]

Everyone's talking about who's gonna raise Asmodeus and if Vax is gonna raise the Matron, but I'd just like to point out:

Beau and Yasha are canonically planning to adopt after this. Yasha is the Stormlord's champion. Are Beauyasha gonna raise Kord? Are the sentinel babes gonna raise THE god of warriors? Are the rest of the nein gonna auntcle the guy guy who sent an electric angel to fight on their ship?

[oneverysmallfeather]

Happy Waudna Wednesday!! Her matrony form of dread is pretty cool.

[starrytether]

It's always about Laudna. It's always about them.

Also, the way the dice never let them down whenever it was about them through this whole campaign. Almost like fate. (I'll never forget those rolls when laudna died and they had to get her back)

I'll miss them terribly.

“Imogen, Laudna is hurt” -Fearne