#Charlie and Deborah don't have chemistry

[everlarkdove]

Matt saying he loves Heather (I have my questions abt it but still), living his life the way he wants, caring abt her, taking care of her... can't they see there's no place for love triangle (even if it's on S2) ? MATT DOESN'T NEED KAREN (romantically)! There's no point on having a love triangle bc Matt doesn't show any remaining feelings for Karen. Heather almost died on today's ep and I don't think she'll make to the end of the show, so what is it gonna be? "Oh my girl that I said that I loved just (almost) die, lemme check if Karen is still have feelings for me" LIKE?!?!?! Atp Kastle is a better choice for the coherence of the show tbh 😭😭😭😭

[foggynelsonarchive]

I created this blog with the intention of posting comics and live Foggy.

However, with the release of the series approaching, I will leave Elden's Foggy aside until I'm sure he won't have as dark a future as I fear he will.

I was thinking yesterday (while deleting my content on Twitter) how something that used to bring joy, unity and a spirit of belonging has today become a silly, unfair, and pointless war. People offending and harassing each other to show who is more important in Matt's life. Matt, a character from a comic book!

I've been blocked by people I admired and thought liked me for expressing my displeasure and honestly, I'm not going to change my mind.

Over the years, since 2018, between sadness and joy to bring this series back, I realized that Elden was the only one who didn't have enough support. Between some kind words of appreciation from Charlie, he was always alone.

Foggy/Elden gets hate posts all the time, his fans get anonymous asks all the time with words that are, well, not kind at all.

There is no one to defend him. No one cares.

And I'm not referring to his little fandom when I say that no one cares.

And there I was, losing my temper while expressing my displeasure, and then I was the only one hated. I understand what Deborah meant, I understand that she has a heart in Born Again, and I understand that she is satisfied with her scenes. I understand.

I understand completely. I just wish Foggy got the same treatment as her. They were Matt's family, after all.

And Daredevil fans seem so comfortable with Elden being left out of the events, the images, the comments... it's so weird and painful to see. It's like Foggy hasn't been Matt's best friend for years.

It's like Foggy didn't save Matt by bringing him his costume in The Defenders, it's like he didn't save Matt on the roof right after Matt got shot by the Punisher, It's like Foggy didn't call Claire when he discovered Matt bleeding on the floor of his apartment and stayed with him.

Foggy was upset, but he had a reason to be. Matt disappointed him a few times too, after all, no friendship is perfect. But he ended up accepting his friend's secret life. It was heartbreaking when Karen told him not to forgive Matt and Foggy refused to take her advice. And if we had a fourth season we would see scenes like Mark Waid's portrayed beautifully.

And here I am, talking about comic book characters as if they were flesh and blood.

Matt loves Foggy like a brother and Charlie and Elden seem like true friends in their scenes. They had a really beautiful chemistry together.

I fear Born Again will kill that.

I totally respect anyone who hates Foggy and Elden, I truly understand that. I've been respecting people hatting on them for years. I understand Karen and Punisher fans who don't care. There is a minority who don't want Foggy to die, however. I respect Deborah for reposting that unfortunate Marvel post and I hope she didn't make fun of Foggy's death. I can understand and respect everyone. But that doesn't stop me from being disappointed and leaving when I see that it doesn't make sense for me to stay.

I just wish Daredevil and fans would reflect a little, that there will always be a good Daredevil story without Foggy. But the best stories are the ones with Foggy in them.

[blessyouhawkeye]

i've been thinking about it, and i don't think we were ever supposed to fully buy in to matt and karen as a romantic pairing. we, like matt and karen themselves, are supposed to be divided over it.

maybe at the beginning of the relationship, when both matt and karen are sure about it, we're supposed to believe in matt and karen as a couple. they believe that too! but right after their first kiss, we meet elektra. earlier in the same episode, karen starts becoming obsessed with frank castle. as soon as their relationship begins, both matt and karen have other people on their minds, even if it isn't in a fully romantic sense.

as their relationship progresses, they're both increasingly pulled in other directions. elektra calls matt during his date with karen, and matt routinely chooses elektra over karen and foggy. karen constantly defends frank to matt, and once they've broken up she chooses going with frank over following matt's advice and staying out of it.

i think that deborah and jon and charlie and elodie's chemistry was intentionally played against matt and karen's romantic storyline to make the audience start to doubt the relationship as the characters do in the show.

[pluckyredhead]

ohh Matt Murdock and Karen Page~?

This is a complicated question because my answers for show and comicsverse are different but since showverse is better known I'll go with: don't ship it.

Why don’t you ship it?

Initially it was because I don't think Charlie and Deborah have any chemistry together, which is baffling to me because they are both so so beautiful and clearly adore each other IRL and also their chemistry with every other cast member practically vibrates off the screen. But there you go.

And then the way the relationship developed in Season 2 felt so toxic and misguided. But that might have just been because all of Season 2 was toxic and misguided.

2. What would have made you like it?

I don't think it would have ever won out over Matt/Foggy for me, but I would have been more invested if there had ever been a moment in Season 2 when either of them had been pursuing the real person and not the imaginary ideal they had in their minds. (Protip, Matt: Karen is just as feral as you are, potentially moreso.)

3. Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

I think they have a super interesting dynamic and are fascinatingly messy characters! And just...so pretty. So, so pretty.

(I do like comicsverse Matt/Karen, especially in the 90s, but more as something in the past - like, if Karen somehow came back to life, I wouldn't want them to get back together.)

[pluckyredhead]

Hi, I'm curious, why do you ship Matt/Foggy more often than Matt/Karen? It's not a complaint of course, I love Foggy dearly. I love Karen too, but I don't generally ship Matt/Karen because I personally think Foggy compliments Matt better. What about you? Also, it's totally cool if you can't or don't wanna answer.

I mean, I think at the end of the day we ship things because our lizard brains go “THOSE TWO (or more). YES. THEM. MAKE THEM KISS.” And that’s fine! I just wouldn’t want anyone to take this as me saying that one ship is more “correct,” for logical or moral reasons, than another. There’s no wrong way to eat a Reese’s or ship a ship. :) (Um, do people remember that Reese’s slogan?)

But for me personally, I think a big part of it is that I just don’t feel like Charlie and Deborah have much chemistry. Which is baffling to me, because they are both such good actors and such ludicrously beautiful people, and they both have chemistry with everyone else who wanders on camera, but the two of them together just...*shrug* I nothing it.

Plus, I LOVE best friend ships and also have a big loyalty kink - like, one character just going “That one. I belong to them” is HUGE for me and that’s sort of Foggy’s defining characteristic. Like I do actually like Matt/Karen as a couple in comics canon, but my OTP is still Matt/Foggy, because his devotion to Matt is even stronger there. It’s my jam!

But yeah, I also agree with you that Matt and Foggy compliment each other well. I really loved watching Matt and Karen this season because for the first time both the show and the characters acknowledged that they are SO SIMILAR - reckless, furious, crusading, selfish, prone to romanticizing people including each other. Whereas Matt and Foggy (and Karen and Foggy) are very different people, and though Season 2 showed us how this can lead to them making each other miserable, Seasons 1 and 3 showed up how this can lead to them making each other better. Matt needs something he can depend on; Foggy needs someone to push him. Foggy is Matt’s ballast; Matt is Foggy’s inspiration.

(oh man i gave myself feelings *_____*)

Anyway, like I said, that doesn’t mean that one pairing is in any way superior to the other! I just really, really (REALLY) dig it.