#CTL Reads

[ctlightner]

Book Review: Snowglobe by Soyoung Park, translated by Joungmin Lee Comfort

SUMMARY:

Snowglobe is a post-apocalyptic dystopian YA novel where climate change has resulted in the Earth being frozen almost all the time. Temperatures average about 5F on a good day, but can regularly get down to -50F. However, there is one place in the world where the temperatures are mild and regulated: the city of Snowglobe, which exists under a dome. Theoretically, anyone can go live in Snowglobe. The catch is, you must submit to having your entire life filmed and recorded and edited into the TV shows the rest of the outside world watches.

The story follows Jeon Chobahm, who is a dead ringer for the most famous actor in Snowglobe, Goh Haeri: the girl next door, whose life has been broadcasted since her birth. However, Haeri's director, Cha Seol, shows up one day looking for Chobahm, and tells her that she needs to take over Haeri's life because the TV star has committed suicide. Chobahm agrees, and then discovers all of the secrets and twists that the haven has to offer.

REVIEW:

I was actually surprised at how much I loved this book. These days, YA and I usualy don't vibe, but I'm beginning to suspect that it may have less to do with books for teens, and more to do with how what people now picture as YA is more along the lines of what people want to call "New Adult." Snowglobe would probably not go over well for that 17-25 crowd, but I think it is perfect for "Lower YA," aka, "Teens," aka people age 12-16.

It's an extremely fast-paced, plot-forward story with casual, modern language and subject matter that a lot of middle schoolers and early high schoolers can relate to. I can only imagine how terrifying school can be nowadays for kids who adamantly do not want to film or be filmed, but sometimes have no choice due to a lot of social medias encouraging a panopticonic approach to life.

I will admit, it's not a particularly deep book. It's doesn't pick apart its world like The Hunger Games does, but it does offer an avatar for readers to immerse themselves in. I don't know how that is affected by it being a book in translation, but I suspect it has more to do with the intended age range of readers. The plot itself goes at a very fast pace, with high-stakes plot twists happening one right after the other.

To be brutally honest, one of the reasons I find this book so charming is because it reads like a self-insert fanfic. I mean this VERY complimentary. I've read more than a few fics that center OCs, Y/Ns, and 2nd-person Reader Inserts, and they all have a certain pace and voice to them that injects a wonderful confidence into the narrative. A confidence that, to the lay person, may seem amateurish and confusing, but to a connoisseur of these stories is familiar, nostalgic, and exactly what's needed. It is imperative that this book is approached with a want to be pulled along on a wild, exciting, fantastical roller coaster. I think many in the 12-16 range naturally approach things like that, which is why I think that's the ideal demographic.

But, if you or someone you know want a little brain candy, pick it up. And for a chaser, I'd recommend two video essays ([1], [2]) by Moon Channel about an ongoing gender war (his words) in South Korea, and why the country has come to blows like this. I think these videos offer an introduction for Westerners into some of the nuances of Korean life, and bring another layer of context to the premise of this book.

If you know a child in middle school who loves to read dystopian fiction, consider pointing them in the direction of this book, especially if the have read and enjoyed Divergent.

[shallowoak]

Sanji & Lil' Sora Whether you're baking or drawing, art is sweeter when shared!

Fanart for @foxglovefantasy 's incredible fic, 'cut the lifelines'!

Design notes on Sora in the tags below ⬇️

[minacoleta]

The Great Pretender

[tranquil-slaughterhouse]

do you think making webcomic is good idea 👉👈

[doverstar]

guess who just randomly updated my Savisnow fic, The Losing Game

[murderballadeer]

non searchable 78-page pdf :(

[silvermasquerade]

I never got to finish La by night cause I got busy with school a few years ago,,, I was almost caught up ( mid season five). But it’s been awhile so I’m just restarting it and vibing so hard I love these pcs.

[stamplerfag]

im going through every episode transcript and compiling. all of willy's dialogue

[ajcrowlor]

Fanlore exists for people to look up fandom in-jokes if they're confused

this feels like going beyond tag wrangling in that it just fully erases a cultural touchpoint of some fandoms' histories and cultures

and different fandoms have VERY distinct styles of tagging that are SUPREMELY IMPORTANT to keeping things clear, and AO3 changing stuff without talking to the community (fandom) could lead to some really big issues

(im specifically thinking abt SPN tagging different "versions" of characters separately and how wrangling Endverse!Cas or Endverse!Dean under the Cas and Dean tags would be. really bad actually.)

but also. if the issue is that the "A+ Parenting" tags are hard to understand bc of sarcasm... well i think people are going to have a shit time understanding the fic bc the writer is likely to use sarcasm in their writing as well as their tagging?

So if you’re in a fandom like mine that has a shitty dad character, chances are you have come across the tag “[character]’s A+ Parenting”. I’ve used it multiple times, and it’s one that I’ve seen used across fandoms.

However, in the last weeks if you’ve tried to use that tag on your fic you may have discovered it missing. I recently tried to tag a fic A+ Parenting, and it didn’t come up. It remained on my other fics but I couldn’t tag my new fic with it.

I reached out to AO3 support asking about it, and this I was I received back.

“Hello,

Thanks for writing to us. There has been a general push to rename tags like this because the sarcastic use of "A+ Parenting" might not be clear to all users. For this reason, the tag "Uther Pendragon's A+ Parenting (Merlin)" has been made a synonym to "Bad Parent Uther Pendragon (Merlin)", and you should be able to find it in the dropdown under the new name.

If you prefer to use the other tag, you are welcome to copy/paste it into the Additional Tags field when you post a new work. Because it's a synonym of the new canonical tag, it will show up under the works listing at

https://archiveofourown.org/tags/Bad%20Parent%20Uther%20Pendragon%20(Merlin)/works

Please let us know if you have further questions.

Warm regards,

AO3 Tag Wrangling Support”

Personally, I find this frustrating. It seems like a pointless consolidation that takes away nuance. For me, “Bad Parent” implies active bad parenting, or that the character’s bad parenting is going to be a core tenant explored in the fic. Whereas “A+ Parenting” acknowledges, with a comedic tone, that the character should be doing a better job. Or is behaving in a way that is contradictory to good parenting, but the parenting isn’t a focus in the fic. It’s passive.

Regardless, given the proliferation of the tag, I think most people are aware of its use. It’s a fun linguistic quirk in fandom that is now being wrangled away.

But you can tell me your opinion.

[bl0rbohandbag]

– some vampire the masquerade x changeling the lost concepts that will not leave me alone.

"but vtm and ctl are from different settings–" shhhhhh :)

— part 2.

before i begin: i have been dabbling in vampire the masquerade and changeling the lost content for a while, i am not a fan of changeling the dreaming and vampire the requiem is unfamiliar to me. anyway! buckle up, enjoy the ride, this is kind of long.

trigger warning for abuse/unhealthy parental relationships because vamps i guess.

first of all: i recently read vtm: bloodstained love. while it focus on the more romantic and sexual aspects of kindred relationships with a lot of references to obsessive/posessive behavior and grotesque acts of love, it also made me wonder how those would translate to platonic or familial relationships. add some changeling shenanigans to that and we have some interesting concepts to play with! and with that being said...

– you're a changeling. kidnapped into arcadia and trapped there for who knows how long. in your durance, you dream of going back home, of reuniting with your friends and family, escaping your keeper to finally, finally enjoy freedom in the world you were born in.

– and one day, you do escape. back into your world, never feeling completely safe with your keeper looking to get you back and huntsmen being a very real threat, but you're ready to rebuild your life and enjoy your newfound freedom.

– there are various mentions throughout the ctl books on how unsuspecting or heedless changelings might have their freedom stolen again, this time by kindred. so, as it turns out, you'll have to deal with creatures other than the true fae who are more than willing to keep you caged!

the angst potential in a changeling reuniting with ther parent(s) only to find out they've become something inhuman, and not all that different from their keeper is unmatched.

maybe you watch them from a distance first. maybe you excitedly seek them out. maybe you just randomly bump into your parent by complete chance, after presuming them dead or deciding to abandon your old life. maybe they find you.

but the point is: they're kindred. so different from when you last saw them, as a teenager, as a child, before you were taken. as if having huntsmen and your keeper after you wasn't trying enough, a vampire parent comes (back) into your life to make it even more complicated.

a ventrue dad will make his ghouls your bodyguards, following you day and night. it makes you insanely uncomfortable, as you liken them to changelings serving true fae back in arcadia. he says it's because of his own dangerous kindred affairs that might affect you, but after an unplesant encounter with the huntsmen he might just decide you shouldn't be out and about at all.

your parent is either a neonate or an ancilla by the time your return from arcadia. your fetch is dead for whatever reason, expired, after living a life in your stead, automatically making the vampire believe their child is dead– now imagine their surprise and confusion when they see you– real you, living and breathing. and maybe you're distraught, too, seeing that they haven't aged a day or should, depeding on how long you've been gone, be most definetly dead.

(this is absolutely NOT going to send the vampire parent into a mental breakdown and spiral into obsession upon discovering the child they have lost and buried was literally a soulless copy of their real child who got kidnapped by faeries. a clone made out of twigs and a cat's eyes that stole their child's place and they never noticed. everything is just fine. it does not them affect them mentally at all :3)

(bonus points if the fetch was killed by the vampire parent's enemies after being entagled in their mess. they feel like they are getting a second chance and will absolutely not screw it up! cue you, poor changeling, being locked away or put under heavy surveillance.)

on the other hand, a kindred parent who currently has a living fetch of their child just being EXTREMELY distraught when they keep spotting someone who looks exactly like their kid at random places they definetly shouldn't be at is very funny and kind of unsettling!

(a vampire mom just feeding on mortals at the club, socializing with other kindred, perhaps dealing with some unresolved issues with her sire, etc. Then she spots you, her real kid, unbeknownst to her, just chilling, among all those dangerous vampires, when you're supposed to be in your dorm room at least a thousand miles from there. she calls the fetch's phone, expecting you to pick up and start explaining yourself. your fetch answers the phone, talks to her, sleep-drunk and confused as to why she's calling so late, but the person she's looking at has made no motion at all. they're not talking. they have not picked up the phone. but that's her kid's face, she's sure. what the fuck?)

for low-humanity ancillae/elder kindred, having their child back might bring about long-forgotten mortal feelings of genuine parental love, although they might express in the very unorthodox way kindred would. they simply do not understand why their child does not want to be around them. they just want to bond with you and keep you safe where kindred and fae can't get to you, make up for lost time. what do you mean they're "just like your keeeper"?

i think a lot of kindred parents will leave you be, mostly brujah or gangrel, knowing you'll be safer if they keep you away from their world. provided there was no fetch to replace you, they think it's amazing enough you were found alive and well after years of being a missing person. you don't like talking about what happened in your... "durance"... fine, they'll keep the investigators off your back, too. they might not even know you're no longer human. but they are going to check on you once in a while, or keep tabs on you, or even have some of their people watch you from a distance. just to make sure.

(just don't let them catch wind of all the changeling shenanigans or huntsmen attacks on your person. that might just change their mind...)

kindred parents might believe you're safer away from their world, yes, but they can just as easily bring you into the mess of kindred society without a second thought.

not very fun being a fairest when your toreador mother insists you show your mien to impress her fellow clan mates and other kindred with your overwhelming beauty. she's always been a pageant mom, so this shouldn't surprise you. there's several layers of wrongness to this, from having your changeling identity exposed to multiple vampires to further your mother's social status to this very situation bringing back so many unpleasant memories from your durance, and it's bound to end badly.

(the toreador pageant mom could very easily be a nosferatu pageant mom, a cleopatra now living vicariously through your fae-given beauty.)

(she will realize how terrible a mistake that was when vampires start really paying attention to you. or not. who knows.)

(gifts that could easily have come from a true fae lord start pouring in. letters written in excessive passion, bouquets of bloody roses, dresses made out of human skin, all delivered by equally dazed-looking ghouls. perhaps your mother will know, then, she fucked up severely. or maybe she'll just tell you to be grateful for those wonderful gifts.)

on another hand, a nosferatu parent taking one look at their fairest child's mien and deciding "oh. no kindred can see you like. ever. stay away from toreador specifically". you don't know what a toreador is, but you'll try to heed the advice.

your ancilla mother meets your motley and proceeds to show them baby pictures of you, taken in the 1870s shortly before your abduction to Faerie. they are very well preserved and you look most proper in your little sailor outfit.

you have a beast/ogre seeming and your gangrel parent thinks you're pretty rad :) you go hunting together.

your tzimisce dad has living furniture made out of human skin, but it's nothing you haven't seen in arcadia before. he's a little disappointed by your lack of enthusiasm, and very offended when you tell him your keeper had better taste in couches. trying to evade a tzimisce dad after he's been made aware of your existence is a difficult task, and you will get caught and held captive at one point (for your safety, of course!). if there is a fetch currently living your life, they will be immediately killed or horribly tortured (read: vicissitude) for the crime of decieving the tzimisce and impersonating you, regardless of you already having decided to leave said fetch alone.

(tzimisce dad thinks you should be thankful. he dealt with the imposter. shouldn't you be happy?)

(if he’s got cash and has some land within his domain to spare, he might let you build a little home not too far from his own to give you a semblance of independence to try and settle you down. might.)

(on the other hand, you have the chance to become a really good escape artist. take your time in captivity with your tzimisce dad to practice your escaping and running away skills, after all, every good changeling needs it! you also get the bonus of reliving your childhood/teenagehood with all the sneaking out.)

(quick intermission: all of these concepts might result in low-clarity for the changeling?? i'm not too sure how clarity damage works yet.

update: it absolutely might!)

your malkavian mother thinks she's plagued with visions of her missing child, glimpses of what they might look nowadays, wherever they are. this is actually you, visiting her in her dreams through oneiromancy.

(everyone thought, back then, that it was just a scare. you wandered into the forest and for ten hours people searched for you, only to find you safe and sound, without a scratch in your body or a speck of dirt in your shoes hours later. but she knew better. she knew that wasn't really you. it haunted her for the rest of her life, and it haunts her unlife even now. she never made it to the hedge.)

you can't take your tremere parent ANYWHERE. you give in after endless nagging and take them to a goblin market, but their arrogance will get them roped into terrible deals if you don't keep your eyes on them full time. you do take this as an opportunity to show off your changeling capabilities. you're in your element.

(you also drop life-altering bits of Faerie lore at random or inappropriate times. it sends them spiraling. you just hope they won't share it with anyone...)

darkling changeling just chilling with their nosferatu dad in the sewers, sharing rats.

and that's all for today, folks.

[2-fast-2-curious]

Please Read This Before Sending a Request

If you're reading this it's too late requests are open

I have a lot of requests right now so this helps me make sure your request doesn't get lost in my inbox. I usually CTL F search my inbox and I feel like I'm missing a lot of your requests in my search because I forget which specific athletes or accents or tropes I have requests for when I'm looking for them.

Please include the following in requests

Name of the Person You Are Requesting (First + Last)

What Kind of Pairing Are you Looking For (ie: M4F, F4F, M4M, etc)

What Sport/Fandom Are They From

Nationality/Description of Their Voice

Any Specific Tropes or Vibes You're Looking For (ie: Enemies to Lovers, Friends to Lovers, Sleep Aids, etc)

Lastly I do not record the audios, they belong to the creators that have been linked

[cosmerelists]

Five Things I Learned Playing Shardle (And One Thing I Didn't)

"Shardle" is like Wordle, only for terms that exist as the title of a Coppermind article. I've been playing Shardle for like a week now, so I am ready to share my experiences.

1. There are too many stormin' characters!

So far, I've played 10 days in a row, and I've only once had a character whose name I even vaguely recognized (Klade, who's at least been in several scenes I can, like, picture). Otherwise, the description post-answer will be like, "You know, that one skaa who works at the sawmill in Luthadel who appeared in like one scene in one book" and I'll be like "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, SHARDLE?!"

2. Main characters tend to have longer names

The thing is, I feel like I know quite a few character names. I write this blog, and it uses a lot of characters. But they all have such long names! Like, at least six letters (looking at you, Jasnah and Navani). Or, if they're short, they're like short (looking at you, Vin and Hoid). So my excellent knowledge of main characters is doing me absolutely no good at all, and playing this makes me feel as though I know nothing.

3. Which is probably why they let you use some regular English words too.

While playing by my usual strategy (typing in phonemes that could potentially make up a fantasy name while crying), I was delighted to find that there was apparently somebody named "Mouse" because "mouse" worked as a guess! This was huge because it let me test out three whole vowels, and at LEAST you know there are vowels in Sanderson character names.

...Only later did I actually read the directions to find that they actually let you use some regular English words to, like, show some small amount of mercy, and there is no Sanderson character named Mouse. It's just the English word "mouse" but I'm gonna use it anyway, damn it.

4. Sanderson LOVES the letter "L"

My starting word is "Rlain," and this has worked out pretty well because there is almost always an "L" in whatever the answer is. Now, I was worried that this might be mere confirmation bias (and also I've only played 10 times at the point of writing this list), so I want to Coppermind for help (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Category:Characters). A very scientific test (using "ctl f" with each letter of the alphabet) revealed that "L" actually is the most common consonant used on this page! Take that, confirmation bias!

5. My starting word is actually genius (accidentally)

By the way, according to my "ctl f on every letter in the alphabet while on the Coppermind list of characters page" test, my starting word of "Rlain" is accidentally brilliant. The three most common consonants are "R," "N," and "L" in that order! And "A" is the most common vowel! Thank you, Rlain, for this help even though I actually chose your name because you were literally the only character I could think of whose name was five letters without repeating letters.

And the one thing I don't know...

6. What quote is used for getting it in 1 guess. Or 2. Or 3 dammit.

Shardle displays a quote once you get the answer, based on how quickly you got it. I know the quote used for, well, not getting the answer. Or for getting it in 6. In 5. Or in 4. But what it says if you guess in 3 or fewer remains a mystery...perhaps forever.

...Do I even like playing?

[meachu]

hey! I have no idea how this is gonna go, but let's find out- bit of a long read, so tldr; I want to learn digital painting, more specifically how to draw characters on an art program like medibang paint pro, and I'm looking for help on how to start ^^ help would be much appreciated!

hello there! I'm meachu - 18, fresh high school graduate, male, love music (hello vocaloid fans), still trying to discover myself, and in this post, I'm a beginner, super interested in learning digital art! digital.. painting? what's it properly called, help-

I'm currently the unemployed (not proud) cook of the house, armed with a decent desktop pc, a pen tablet (wacom ctl-490), my keyboard, and a lot of free time!

admittedly, I'm that kind of beginner who either traces artwork by artists I look up to, or heavily references art by that artist, then I figure out I'm not that good, then give up and trace it anyway... sigh.. that's about all of my past 'experience', and I'd like to drop this habit.

the current short-term goal is to figure out how to draw characters. the ability to take a friend's persona or character and draw it in my style'd be awesome, and I'd love to reach the point where I can get in the mood to spend hours of my time in a day just pumping out sketches of this one character eating a burger, getting an education, taking a night walk... simple poses, flat colors, maybe a bit of shading, basic backgrounds that don't always have to be there... that's my goal.

I'm free to voice chat--not that we have to, but we could if you'd like! I have lots of spare time right now- add me on discord, my user is "meachu" :) questions, clarification, or even a simple hello would be greatly appreciated!

thanks for reading! sorry I haven't posted in a while, and this is a pretty big ask, and I don't really expect a lot from it, but I'd love to get something down. if I learn anything, I could probably pass our knowledge onto somebody else in the future, too- get other people into art! I love teaching people :)

have a great rest of your day! - meachu

[gigglylover1]

.

5-6 days ago I finally got myself a drawing tablet :D I mean it is a Wacom intuos ctl-4100 but atleast it is a portable tablet for my bag and a good size for my desk to fit in. :>

Later on, the big projects and the comics (drawn) is going to be made on the computer (in krita because I haven't spent any of my parents money on the softwares-) with my tablet, (which means sorry for the ones that reads the time it takes to make it) but I will still draw some stuff on ibispaint X and post it. :>

I am still trying to log into my DeviantArt account on my computer because I still don't remember the password or even saved or written it down- but it has the Tumblr account logged in so it is good-

[doverstar]

shoutout to celiacheryl54 for commenting on practically every chapter of Chasing The Light after lo these many millennia of me finishing it and making me smile so big

[the-conversation-pod]

Summer 2023 Lagniappe

We made it to the end of the season, folks! Time for all of the extra discussions that just didn't fit into the structure of the season. Nini and Ben are both from the Caribbean and share the word "lagniappe" which means "a little extra" (kinda like a baker's dozen).

This time we've got quite a few things to discuss, and we also have our first guest! Ben's best friend David joins us for the Season Wrap-Up conversation.

We're going to answer some questions from @ctl-yuejie and @mynameisnotthepoint.

Nini caught up on My Only 12 Percent, Roommates of Poongduck 304, and She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

We unpack the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We will not be discussing it ever again.

We discuss the execution of polyamory in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend.

We then hang out with David and discuss genre history, favorite actors, flops-and-trends, and award our Girl, You Tried award for this season.

Finally, we look ahead to the fall!

Listen on Apple Podcasts!

Listen on Google Podcasts!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Welcome 1:15 - Intro 3:14 - Talk Nice to Us 3:36 - How Did We Get into QL, and How Has the Podcast Changed Us? 9:10 - How Does Criticism and Commentary Change Your Viewing Experience? 13:11 - Catch Up Corner 13:59 - My Only 12 Percent 22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304 26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat 30:09 - The Shipper 59:46 - Next Watches 1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend 1:15:53 - Spring Roundup 1:16:40 - David Introduction and BL Background 1:18:50 - David’s History with Queer Cinema 1:20:59 - David’s Favorite BL Actors 1:23:24 - David’s Thoughts on the Spring Shows 1:26:15 - Somewhat Forgettable Shows 1:29:25 - Favorite Actor Pairs 1:36:49 - The Changing Nature of BLs 1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried 1:46:56 - Looking Ahead 1:57:44 - Outro

The Conversation: Now With Transcripts!

We received an accessibility request to include transcripts for the podcast. We are working with @ginnymoonbeam on providing the transcripts and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

0:00 - Welcome

Nini

Hello, hello! Your QL fandom aunty and uncle are here with giant sunglasses, brown liquor in a flask, a folded five-dollar bill to slip into your hand when no one is looking, lukewarm takes, occasional rides on the discourse, deep dives into artistry and the industry.

Ben

Lots of simping! I’m Ben.

Nini

I’m Nini.

Ben

And this is The Conversation. About once a season, we plan to swan in and shoot the shit on faves, flops, and trends that we’ve been noticing in the BL, GL, or QL Industry. Between seasons, you can find us typing way too many words on Tumblr.

1:15 - Intro

David

Hey, guys. My name is Dave. I'm your new favorite BL B-Asterisk-T-C-H and I'm here to introduce Nini and Ben—who don't really need any introduction, but I'm an extra bitch. So that's why I'm here. They're giving out awards. There's shadin’ shows. They're uplifting some shows, but mostly shade. So, welcome, tune in, have fun, and I'll see you guys in the episode. It's gonna be a lot of me, so be prepared, like, it's a lot. 

Bye, guys!

Nini

We have our first guest on the show—not for the last time, because we had so much fun with David. David's going to be back. 

Ben, what are we talking about? This is the lagniappe.

Ben

So, the lagniappe, as always, is going to be the bits that just didn't fit into the format of the other episodes thematically or in a way that we thought was necessarily interesting. So, we also figured out that Spotify has a question and answer tool and a commenting section, so please use it. We're having a lot of fun with it. 

We're going to answer some questions from some friends of ours—one old, one new. We're going to talk about Nini catching up when She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat, Roommates of Poongduck 304, as well as My Only 12 Percent. Nini and I are going to stare into the abyss and scream about the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We're gonna promise you all some things for the future. We're gonna talk about a very complicated show in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend. And then finally, with David’s very specific presence here, we're going to unpack the entire spring season and generally qiqi for a bit.

Nini

It's delightful. Y'all are going to have a lot of fun see see you in the episode.

3:14 - Talk Nice to Us

Ben

On to the Talk Nice to Us section! Some of you lovely listeners—we still have not figured out what we wanna call you; please chime in and let us know—has sent us a couple of questions, one from an old friend of mine on Tumblr, and one from a new friend of the show. 

Nini, please take us into the questions.

3:36 - How Did We Get into QL, and How Has the Podcast Changed Us?

Nini

Ok, so the first question is from @ctl-yuejie, and they write, “I am curious how and why you two started watching QL, what your first impressions were, and how they might have changed over time and after starting a podcast about it?” 

So, Ben, how would you answer that question?

Ben

As a known homosexual and amateur cinenophile, [Nini laughs] I was bored and stressed with the Western Queer Cinema when I discovered BL. SOTUS comes out in…2016. I was desperate for a fresh infusion of queer cinema. There was a huge dearth of content happening in the 2010s. 

I really like queer stories, and I really like queer people getting to have fun and have a good time, and one of the things that stood out about SOTUS that felt fresh at the time was how forthright Kongpob was. I also liked that it was giving a commentary on its own society at the time, and I was basically hooked on QL from that point on. 

One, there was just a whole lot more of it—even with the small amount of content we had in 2016, 2017, 2018—there was more time spent with those shows than like all of the queer movies I watched in that year from the West. 

That's why I'm here, and then I met Nini, and she was like, “I want to talk about the shows and I want to do a podcast.” And I was like, “Well let's not think about it. Let's just do it.” 

Now we're here. What about you?

Nini

We talked about some of this stuff in our very first intro episode. I have been around fandom for a really long time. I have been familiar with the concept of BL. Sometime around the end of 2020 or beginning of 2021, some edit of I Told Sunset About You showed up on my YouTube, and I was desperate to find it. Back then it wasn't easily findable. And so, in trying to find it, I cycled through Life: Senjou no Bokura, Gaya Sa Pelikula, and Where Your Eyes Linger before I found I Told Sunset About You finally. 

So I got here at the beginning of 2021, and I just started devouring what I could find. And then, yeah, met Ben on the Tumblrs, and I said to Ben, “Hey, Ben, you write nice about things. I want to do a podcast because I want to do deep dives into some of this stuff.” And Ben said “Bet” and here we are. 

In terms of how my impressions of QL have changed over time and after starting this podcast, I am…familiar with the rhythms of some of this media now, and so things that probably would have irked me at the beginning don't irk me anymore or I enjoy them. I think I watch the shows differently now. When I'm watching I'm always thinking about, “Oh, I wonder what Ben's gonna say about this?” Which is fun! ‘Cause usually I am spot on.

How about you, Ben? How have your thoughts about BL, QL, GL, and fandom changed since starting the podcast?

Ben

One of the useful bits about the podcast versus say…blogging and essay writing is…the conversation itself forces me to think differently about the shows. Like I don't come into the podcast recordings with a bunch of, like, scripts written out for what I want to talk about. I sometimes give us questions to focus on that I think will get us into the meat of what that particular project was trying to dig into. But it's talking with each other and then it's the discussions with other people that really elevate the entire experience for me. 

I think what I've enjoyed the most about the podcast is…I feel like the shows are not one and done anymore. I feel like I'm exiting the very sort of masculine style of fandom engagement—which is mostly watching, memorizing, cataloging—and I'm very much enjoying the transformative part…of fandom where we talk about the shows, unpack them. I find myself being significantly more engaged than I was previously, and it makes me a little more picky about what I watch. 

Like, if I know I'm not going to talk about the show with you I'm far more likely to just dismiss the show.

Nini

It's true. There are some times where just like, “Ugh, God. I mean, if Ben's gonna watch this I guess I'm gonna have to watch it, too.” Doing the show has been really great from that regard in that I have watched things that I would have originally dismissed because of Ben— sometimes I don't love them. But most of the time when Ben says “you should watch this” I find it really worthy. 

9:10 - How Does Criticism and Commentary Change Your Viewing Experience?

@mynameisnotthepoint writes, ”How is your balance with consuming a piece of media and consuming the meta around it? Have you had it happen that the meta around it—reading up on things—completely changed your mind on a series?” 

Ben, has reading meta ever changed your mind about something that you watched?

Ben

The simple answer is yes; the complex answer is no. 

None of us are immune to receiving new inputs from other people, and people read things differently from me. I do find value in other people's perspectives. I like understanding where people are writing from. But it's very rare that somebody saw something in a show that was so groundbreaking that I also didn't see it in the first place. The big beats of the story are rarely something that I missed while participating along the way. We're all pretty smart, and the shows are rarely trying to trick us. So, it's very rare that, like, somebody's like, “Aha! It was the butler in the kitchen with the candlestick!” and I'm like, “How did you predict that?”

Nini

How I prefer to engage with the meta doesn't lead a lot of the time to me changing my mind about a show, but it has happened that I have been…persuaded not out of my particular read but more into seeing another read as valid. In my head I can hold two ideas, so I can be like, “Well this thing, I read it this way. This person read it that way.” I think both of those things can be happening at the same time. I don't feel like my read is exclusive to every other read. 

It's fun to talk to people about these things. I'm with Ben. A lot of the enjoyment in these shows other than watching some of the shows themselves—not all—is in talking to people about the shows and finding out what where their perspectives are coming from and seeing where our perspectives intersect, and where they might run parallel, and where they might conflict, but then how that conflict may not be a conflict at all. It's the twisty intellectual side of things that I really enjoy, and then also just the emotional side—having those conversations, getting to know people through their experience of media and my experience of media. I find that incredibly fun and rewarding. It's one of the reasons that I do the podcast with Ben. 

For me, the answer is yes sometimes my mind is changed by meta, but more often than not my thinking is expanded—not changed—by taking in meta.

Ben

Expand is a good way to describe it. I do think most shows that are good benefit from really invested people with the ability to communicate their thoughts sharing them determinedly week in week out. I'm a big fan of meta, basically. 

Keep writing! If you listen to us, keep writing!

We don't get to make friends with people if you guys are just lurking! Please write! Write on tumblr. Write on your blogs. Write to us. Whatever you do, just keep writing! We want to hear what you're thinking about the shows.

13:11 - Catch Up Corner

Nini

This is the Spring Catch Up Corner. We've got a doozy of one for you guys to round out the end of this but we're going to start with a few things that I caught up on in the spring mostly because Ben would not shut up about them.

Ben

[laughs] It's true though!

Nini

So in the spring I watched She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat (in Japanese: Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna), then Roommates of Poongduck 304, and My Only 12 Percent. Since Ben is breaking up with New this season I'm going to start with My Only 12 Percent.

13:59 - My Only 12 Percent

Ben

Okay I thought we were going to have fun first with, like, She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. It's like directly into My Only 12 Percent! “And another thing! Smack!”

Nini

We always go from worst to first, but we're ending this particular catchup with the worst because of what it is. 

Ben

Man…[sighs]

Nini

I'm just gonna go with My Only 12 Percent. We don't I think need to do like the reminder to everybody about what My Only 12 Percent is because we've talked about it in the VIIB Awards. You all should go back and listen to that episode—I'm not exactly sure which episode it is but I will probably put it in the show description. 

So. I looked at it I watched it…[Nini sighs, Ben laughs]…and—okay, I'm gonna be real real with you, okay?

Ben

Okay.

Nini

I cannot say that I liked My Only 12 Percent. But I also cannot say that I disliked My Only 12 Percent.

There were moments, there were moments to My Only 12 Percent that I did like, but, like, the first two-thirds of the show I just found incredibly frustrating. I am not really a Cooheart fan as an actor. Actually, let me take that back.

Ben

Yeah, that's right, you better correct yourself.

Nini

I think Cooheart is talented. I would like to see him work with somebody else, because he has only worked with New, and I think he and New bring out the worst in each other in the director-actor relationship. I think that occasionally they reach certain heights but I think that working together, they lean into some old techniques, they lean on things that they're accustomed to doing with each other and it doesn't work for me. 

One of the things I would like to see Cooheart do is play older and New always has him play younger, and in this particularly he plays really young. And it's the effect of it is unsettling for me even when they age him up a little bit. I can’t slide away from the acting he was doing earlier in the show when he was playing like 15-16 and it's just it's hard for me to recalibrate once they age him up. 

The things I do like about the show. I like how Cake and Eiw were just—they were just like that the whole time from like the day they were born, I guess. Like, the first day that they were ever put in a crib together they were just like that. I mean everybody else more or less knew what it was and how they felt about each other, but nobody forced them to figure it out or forced them to explain it or anything like that. They just let them figure it out for themselves. I liked the realization part of things. I did like that scene where Eiw is watching Love of Siam—which is something else that I have to put on my catch up list—and you see the moment when he understands something about himself. I, too, I'm a person who has light bulb moments watching media. 

So, I am a fan of characters who work things out by having, like, a media moment. I like that the two of them were just always connected and they figured out for themselves how they felt. I liked the fight that they had in episode 12 when everything sort of comes to a head because Eiw knows how he feels. Cake knows how he feels, but neither of them is really talking to each other about it. They're just trying to fall back into their old patterns without laying on the table what the feelings are. And, of course, it becomes an issue and they have a fight about it because Cake is jealous. This is the kind of jealousy I like, where things are unsettled and one character is like I cannot hold in anymore how I feel. I am upset about this thing that you're doing, or this person that you're talking to, and the reason for that is because I feel this way about you. And the other character is like, “Well, fucking finally!” 

So I did like their fight. I thought that Cooheart was very good in their fight. I liked Santa and his connection with him in the fight. I always like to see a good fight between the two main characters when something has been building up for a while. It was really good. 

One of the other scenes that was really good was their first time scene. The way that it happened was very gentle. It was very matter of fact, almost. It wasn't like a big planned romantic thing. It just kind of happened because they were just there and vibing. I like that. But this show felt like New [Ben laughs] and not in the good way. 

Ben

There It is.

Nini

It felt like classic New Siwaj! It felt like New Siwaj doing Make It Right. It felt like New Siwaj in the parts of Until We Meet Again that piss me off. 

There's, like, a lot of minutiae. Stuff that's happening around the characters that's not really important to the narrative or the character building. It's just a bunch of stuff that's happening and he just insists on showing it in detail. There's way too many side characters. They drag out the main story, like it takes 12 episodes—12 of 14 episodes—for Cake and Eiw to get to the point where they can even have the conversation. And then there's, like, some weird blushing maiden shit which I never like. 

And then the thing that New always does which is that the last minute brings out some left field bullshit out of nowhere, that has absolutely no relation to anything else, and just kind of stops sorry dead in his tracks. In this instance, it's Eiw’s mom is dying randomly all of a sudden because their dad used to smoke when he lived with them. Their dad hasn't lived with them for like—what over a decade? So their mom has third hand smoke cancer. It's just out of nowhere. I can't understand why it's there. 

So basically I didn't dislike it but I didn't like the show either. If I had to give it a score I would probably give it…a 6. It's okay. 

Ben

Harsh. [laughs]

Nini

It's New Siwaj on his New Siwaj bullshit. That's gonna be a 6 for me.

Ben

Well, I'm glad you at least humored me and watched it. I feel differently now that New has irritated me twice in the last couple of months, first with Double Savage and then with A Boss and a Babe. That being said, I hope that someday he earns the moments he really wants to hit, because what he's trying to do is actually really interesting. Two best friends who've been in love with each other in one way shape or form their entire lives, and it takes them over 20 years to find an alignment that works for them. I'm into that.

Nini

Listen, New gon’ New, and I don't have to put up with it anymore. 

Ben

That's honestly one of the most unexpected takeaways of this whole season for us was realizing that I don't think I like New Siwaj anymore.

I'm not mad at him. I just feel a little bit sad, because he reminds me of a lot of guys who I knew when I was in college who mean really well. They just don't really know people or how to interact with them. That's how a lot of New’s stuff feels, particularly his whole thing with revealing context after someone has really fucked up something. Because that's how he gets things. Like he fucks up something, and likely somebody yelled at him and explained it to him, and he was like “oh damn,” and then he wrote it down in this journal, and then he turned it into one of his scenes in his shows.

Nini

I think we've talked enough about New Siwaj. We talked about New Siwaj literally the entire season. I am over him. Let's move on.

Ben

Very well.

22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304

Nini

The second thing that I watched—and this one I actually quite liked—I watched Roommates of Poongduck 304. 

This was actually pretty good. It was a solid little workplace drama out of Korea. I quite liked the way that they balanced out the boss and employee relationship by having them flip it at home and be landlord and renter. I always like when these boss-subordinate relationships have some kind of other power dynamic going on next to it. 

I really liked the characters. I thought they were fun. Watching Holland play like…[laughs]… a scamming-ass, down-dirty—like, he's supposed to be his friend but he's just stealing from him—let's just be real. It was delightful in certain ways but it was also heartbreaking because watching Jae Yoon get scammed and taken advantage of by not just Holland—who I can't remember the character's name even though I liked the show—but watching him get scammed by all his friends. It was just really hard. I kind of was like, “Aw, baby…You need to be more careful about who you let into your life.” 

But, yeah, I enjoyed this. I really enjoyed this. I thought that the work stuff was really integrated well into the romantic story and vice versa. For essentially a rom-com setup, it was quite realistic and quite fun. Yeah! I had a good time with this.

Ben

I really liked this show a lot, and I feel like…this show is underrated. I agree with you. I think this is one of the rare K-BLs that understands how much time they have exactly and what they want to do with that time. I think they balance the relationships in a way that makes it fun, and it's not just one person getting picked on by the other the whole time. 

And, like, the only thing that really I don't like in this show—is the same thing I usually don't like with the Korean stuff—is the way they handle alcohol in the shows that usually makes me uncomfortable. Seo Jae Yoon, I don't like the way he drinks. But, given the friends he has, I guess I'll let him have it.

Nini

Hoo! Listen, his friends are trash, throw the friends away, throw all the friends away. My God! The other friend who is basically like in an MLM and keeps making him buy shit...

Ben

Now that was gross.

Nini

What was the name that he had for him on his phone?

Ben

I don't know, but I remember being, like, really embarrassed about it. Like, it was basically like “fool” or…

Nini

Yeah, it was something like that. It was really mean. It was basically something that implied like he was just somebody that this guy was taking advantage of.

Ben

Like it basically felt like he called him “chump” and put him in his phone as that.

Nini

Yeah…and it was ugly but it was part of a character arc for Jae Yoon as well to understand that he deserved better than these friends who would use him like this, and I did like that. It's a solid little show, very enjoyable. I would recommend it to people. I liked it.

26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat

So, today of all the days, the day we're recording, we got the news that there is going to be a second season of this: She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

Ben

I'm so fucking relieved. [Nini laughs] I really am! I will let you talk first but my goodness am I relieved that we're getting a season 2. [Ben laughs]

Nini

So, back in the VIIB Awards when we're talking about the GLs of the year, Ben laid this one out as one of the ones that he really enjoyed. He called it the lesbian What Did You Eat Yesterday? and being a great fan of What Did You Eat Yesterday? I was like, “Okay, bet. I will definitely watch this at some point.” 

So I found myself with some time, and I cracked open the old computer machine, and I decided I'm gonna watch She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat, and—oh my god—how lovely. It's so lovely. I love the show! I love it so much! Watching this gentle…kind of slow gravitation between Nomoto and Kasuga. I smile the entire time. It was so lovely. ‘Lovely’ is the word that just comes to mind when I think about it. 

And then Kasuga talking about how she has never felt accepted, or never felt understood…Nomoto starting to understand in herself how she's always felt separate from everybody. And then Nomoto watching Kasuga eat at every day basically, and those sessions them having dinner becoming more and more sexual…The look on Nomoto's face when she watches Kasuga eat becoming more and more mouth open kind of “this is hot” kind of thing. 

And her not even realizing that that's what's happening to her: that she is becoming sexually attracted to Kasuga, and particularly to watching Kasuga eat. 

Oh, God, love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. And then, as the show goes on, she starts to acknowledge and accept the fact that she's attracted to Kasuga—that she's sexually attracted to Kasuga. At the point in time that the story ends in season 1—now I can say that: in season 1—I remember thinking, “Oh my god! It's not finished! I need so much more of this—” 

Ben

And that's why I'm so fucking relieved.

Nini

It ends when they're really starting to adjust their relationship from friends to a romantic relationship. 

So, we are getting a second season of this of 20 episodes next year in 2024, and I personally cannot wait. I love that all the Japanese shit that I really glommed onto in the last few months are all getting sequels. 

So, there was the Utsukushii Kare sequel first, then we found out earlier that we're getting a second season of What Did You Eat Yesterday? and now She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. 

I am very glad that I took your recommendation on two-thirds of this list. [laughs]

Ben

Shade. [laughs]

Nini

On all of it. There was stuff to hold on to in My Only 12 Percent. The totality of it just wasn't for me. So I'm glad that I watched all three of these, but of the three, my absolute favorite thing that you recommended that I watch is She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

30:09 - The Shipper

Nini

We've talked about the lovely fun things and now it's time to descend into hell. 

Ben

Last time we left you all, Nini and I decided that we would watch The Shipper from 2020 and report back to you all, because we liked a lot of the folks involved and thought it would be really interesting to give a show that we knew had had some complicated responses when it first aired a genuine watch. Well, we've had the opportunity to watch it, and we just finished it, and we have a lot to say. 

So, before we get into our immediate reactions, the simple breakdown of The Shipper is that it is a high school setting show in which two girls who’re writing sexy fic about two older boys at their school that they love and ship. This eventually leads to some kerfuffles in their school. Our protagonist, Pan, ends up riding with one of the boys home one night. They get into a car crash, killing both of them. In the afterlife, they meet the god of death—who is played by Jennie Panhan. They sass Jennie a bit, she mushes their faces, and sends them back to Earth, but accidentally switches their bodies, and then Pan has to live as Kim—the boy that she's been viewing as part of her ship for a long time clearly—for some time, where she realized she doesn't exactly know him that well, and then starts to reevaluate how she's always perceived him. 

A lot of other things happen. There are some ideas that are half-baked in this, and it's very clear that the show was fighting a thematic war within the writers room itself. And quite frankly, it left me and Nini both dissatisfied and deeply disturbed to put it mildly. 

Before I hand it over to Nini, I just want to say real quick, this is the first time in MDL history that I think I'll be giving a show a 1. 

So, Nini, we just finished The Shipper. How are you feeling?

Nini

I'm going to let MDL user jarabaa speak for me, and I quote: “I found the series so intensely disagreeable that my feelings of shock and unease will probably stay with me a long time whenever I think of The Shipper.” End quote. I think that says it all.

Ben

‘Disagreeable’ is really such an accurate term.

Nini

This just reiterates to me that sometimes when we both have a gut feeling about something, we should trust that, because we both had a gut feeling that we would not like this show, which is why we never watched it. And now, having watched it, I think we were both correct.

Ben

I feel so validated in my decision in 2020. I took one look at that show and I said ‘hell to the no’ and I wish we hadn't been curious in going back.

Nini

They say, “Curiosity killed the cat?” Well, I feel like a dead kitty right now because…What? Was? That? [sighs] 

Okay, I'm going to try—I'm going to try to actually formulate some sentences that are descriptive and helpful in order to lay out why I never want to think about this show again after we finish recording this.

Ben

Getting into some specifics about what may have happened along the way here: There were some interesting ideas presented early in the show that the people who ship people don't really know the people involved; that they have a false notion of them based upon surface details and the fictional things they've created about them. There's an interesting idea in this, particularly as it pertains to shipping real people who exist with each other as opposed to say fictional characters.

Early on the show really says something special with Pan realizing she didn't actually know who Kim was when she was forced to live as him, because she thought she knew who he was, and I made the joke when we were watching, like, the first episode, like, that, “You know, he's just a hole to her,” [Nini chuckles]...I didn't realize that that's what the theme of the show was going to be…

Like, spoilers for the end of The Shipper, only one of them survives Jennie mushing them in the face. First is apparently too weak. Prigkhing is so much stronger. And so Prigkhing gets to live as First’s character for a while. Eventually one of their bodies has to go and they make the decision for Pan to keep her body and for Kim (First’s character) to die. 

How we get there is a huge mess and by the time it finished the show read extremely homophobic and lesbophobic to Nini and myself.

Nini

Oh, throw in transphobic.

Ben

And transphobic. I'll let you take on that portion. 

For me, one of the things that was kind of interesting introduced along the way was that they were shipping two boys together because maybe they picked up on the homosocial tension between them, and what we learn along the way is that these boys actually did have a homoromantic relationship brewing between them. But it was nothing like anything that these girls had really imagined. I don't think I'd give much thought to the depths of the feelings between these two boys. And what we end up learning about the actual relationship between Kim and Way, the two boys that they’re shipping, played by First Kanaphan and Fluke Pusit respectively, ends up being fairly compelling, and I was deeply invested in what they might have done with those boys’ dynamic, particularly if we'd have gotten a see who Kim actually was.

But what ends up happening along the way that ends up frustrating me is critical moments that should have belonged to two gay boys…never get to happen for them…and what happens because the the narrative chooses to have the Kim character be dead the whole time, it makes all of Way’s expressed feelings for Kim, particularly after the accident, all feel super unrequited. 

I'm not opposed to exploring queer grief, but I don't like the way it's done here. It feels cheap. 

I'm gonna let Nini get into the specifics of this, because she said it multiple times when we were watching this: “this show wants to have its cake and eat it too.” It wants to give a stern lesson about how deeply out of touch shipping is, but also feeding shipping the whole time? And ends up…kind of damning itself along the way because we never actually really meet Kim…and he's dead at the end…and so all he is is what everyone else has projected onto him.

Nini

This show, for like maybe 6 or 7 episodes, tiptoes up to several points. It almost makes a series of points as Ben mentioned about shipping, about the experience of fandom, about who we think fans are and who they might actually be. It almost makes a point about how many queer women are in fandom and women discovering their queerness through fandom. It almost makes a point about about transgender people and the idea that the way that we present to the world maybe not being who we are inside. It tiptoes up to all of these points, and in the end touches none of them. The front half of this is intensely frustrating, and then the back half is just actively offensive. It just— I can't even— [laughs] Actively offensive!

The shift happens when we realize that there is this weird, ugly fake relationship—that is fake on one side but very real on the other—happening between Kim and one of the teachers. That's when this show really started going off the rails for me—the whole thing with Kim and the teacher is when I started feeling deeply uncomfortable. I started feeling gross. I didn't understand why this is the way that the show was going, what they were trying to say with this storyline. I still don't know at the end of the show what they're trying to say with that storyline other than I guess they're trying to tell you that the actual Kim was not a good person. But then why have him be essentially the victim of a predator?

Ben

It's really hard for us to give you guys the necessary context for some of these things. The simple overview is when Pan accidentally finds herself in Kim's body, she learns along the way that instead of being like the star academic student, he's actually an academic cheater, that he's involved in a secret relationship with one of the stern teachers, and he uses that relationship to get answers to the tests. This upsets Pan because her image of Kim as a star student and badass is ruined. 

Eventually, she learns that the reason why Kim was manipulating this teacher and involved in this relationship with her to get these tests was because he was helping Way study so that Way could get out of an abusive situation in his house with his dad by succeeding at school properly, because Way gets into fights too much. We don't really return to the whole thing there because all we get is…a teacher with very…juvenile-centric kinks projecting them on to a star student. It just left both of us, when we watched it, feeling super weird about it.

And it doesn't really go anywhere. They're just like—at the end she's like moved on to an age-appropriate man now, I guess? Like, good for her? I guess Kim's death was the necessary catalyst for her to stop trying to hook up with one of her students.

Nini

It's so gross and it's the pivot after which most of what happens feels gross to me, and there are a hundred different things that they're trying to do—none of them lands. It feels like the show wants to have its cake and eat it, too, in a lot of ways. 

I haven't even started to get into what they did with the character of Soda. Soda is Pan's best friend who she writes the fic with, who is her ride-or-die. The implication of the show is that Soda and Pan are kind of in love with each other, particularly that Soda is in love with Pan. But that again goes nowhere—in the end, they randomly put both Pan and Soda with boys?

Ben

A lot of things just don't make any damn sense in this show. It's frustrating because the show comes close constantly to a good point like it almost makes the point that shippers know nothing about the people that they're shipping…but then it never really gives us like an interior understanding of who Kim actually was. We only know him through what everybody else is getting out of knowing him. That's almost an interesting point but the big problem I feel with the show is that I feel like this show is the most intellectually disturbing and manipulative show that we've ever experienced. I don't think the show ever really lands on a real feeling it wants to go for and so you're kind of left floundering. 

I really…don't…like this particular project, and it's really frustrating because there's a lot of people I really liked in it. Individual pieces of the show on their own could be some really cool moments. Like I think Fluke plays a kind of himbo-badass-type-jock character really well. Like he plays Way super well as a guy who is not the greatest at school, doesn't really have like a refined understanding of human connection; but knows who's important to him, and knows who he wants to be with, and knows not to mislead other people along the way. 

And it's really frustrating to see a gay character like Way be constantly emotionally abused by this narrative. The frustration that arises from me as I watch this, particularly whereas it pertains to Way, is he already knows that he has feelings for Kim, and over the course of interacting with Pan, because Pan in some ways softens Kim because she's less standoffish than he is, Way decides to confess his feelings to Kim. And this pissed me off in episode 9 because I've been a gay boy confessing from the closet to someone before. It is the most terrifying thing that has ever happened to me in my life, and I was so disgusted with this show because they gave one of the most intense things that you can do as a gay man with another boy to a fucking shipper who never really respected who they were as people. 

I hate that with all of the fires that burn in my soul, and it never really gets better from there.

Nini

Let me give you an example of a direction that the show was going in that it then undercut. 

So, one of the actual good story arcs in the show. At the beginning of the show, Way is in a relationship with View’s character Pingping. Pingping is the school's queen bee and she is out here like putting out this…general idea that she and Way are in this hot and heavy thing. Meanwhile, Way has never really touched her. They spend all their time together staring at their phones and occasionally talking to each other. You can see where there is some affection there between them but Way quickly—I guess for the narrative—realizes how he feels about Kim, and he's very open immediately about talking to Pingping about it and being like, “Look, I am in love with somebody else.” And the way that Pingping handles that is also very real. She doesn't want to hear it. She avoids it. There's a lot of interesting stuff there. All that's great. 

And then, they undercut it by having Pingping, like, put a hit out on Kim. It's insane.

Ben

That is actually what happens. Like, the most frustrating thing to talk about with this show is that everything we're describing happened as we're describing it. The problem with The Shipper is while it's very easy to talk about the actions that transpired over the show and the expressed-by-the-character reason for why they're doing what they're doing, the thematic implications of everything they're doing is actually incredibly disturbing. 

Like, one of the big things we talk about in fandom sometimes is that projecting homosexuality onto boys is the way a lot of girls figure out their own queerness with themselves, and the show walks right up to this line by highlighting the romantic potential between Pan and her friend Soda, who spend way too much of their free time and their class time writing sexy fic about two boys like a year or two older than them, and then throws that idea away as if it were preposterous. 

That is…so offensive, and it's weird in a show that features young gay love in it about girls who are obsessed with young gay love to do something that felt Incredibly homophobic—in this case, specifically lesbophobic.

Nini

The show in general feels homophobic and lesbophobic because in the end, the only romantic relationship that actually gets to happen is the one between Pan and Khet, who is Kim's brother. So of everything else, basically Way falls in love with Kim and Kim dies, they tease Pan and Soda but it doesn't happen and they both end up with boys. It feels like it wanted to be clever and out-clevered itself, so to speak, to the point that it just got real stupid.

Ben

You look at The Shipper and you can see the points that it's hinting at but it's almost like it's afraid to make the point because they're worried that the audience that they're hoping funds this project doesn't turn on them by realizing that they're being maybe chided for how they behave, and it ends up becoming a show fundamentally about nothing, that ends on an insane level of queer trauma that it somehow writes off as useful because it helped a straight girl figure out that she should maybe fuck her best friend who's hung around her writing sexy fic about his brother, but she didn't know it was his brother for the last year or two? But also she's now projecting her intense shipping desires onto Gun and Off who randomly show up in the final six minutes? 

…I deserved better than this.

Nini

Let's just talk about the absolute—I mean, it sounds so weird to say that this is the absolute wildest moment of the show. I mean, if we went through all the wild moments of the show it's probably not the absolute wildest, but it's the one that felt probably the wildest and most offensive in the end and that was The Kiss. 

Ben

Fuck. Here we go.

Nini

At the end, Pan is now trying to get back into her body after a series of UNO reverses in the last two episodes that just were exhausting and upsetting. Now Pan is trying to get back into her body before it dies, and the way that she gets back into her body is supposed to be a true love kiss. Pan is still in First’s body at this point in time, and then they decide that the true love must be Kim's brother Khet. 

It's two boys kissing but it's somehow still homophobic! [laughs] It's so—oh my God. 

So, Pan's got to have a true love's kiss. So, Pan calls Soda while she's running to tell Khet that if he likes her he should come and kiss her in the form of his brother's body—which he does! I'm telling you, guys…what I'm saying is exactly what happened.

Ben

I just hate the show for having Ohm and First kiss, having it be one of the weakest kisses either of these boys has ever given, and then immediately cutting to a funeral afterwards. Because First’s character died.

Nini

Technically, First’s character died at the beginning of the show, and we only get to dealing with that at the end of the show. And in between, we just get a bunch of stuff…

I mean we haven't even got into the family drama, because aside from everything else that's happening, Kim and Khet live alone while their parents are in another country, and it seems like Kim and Khet kind of hate each other. And so there's a whole family drama happening with Pan in Kim's body where Khet is coming to peace of some kind with his relationship with his brother and then has to also deal with the fact that actually his brother is dead, and then has to shepherd his parents through that. So there's that. 

And then we randomly find out somewhere in the middle of the show that Pan is actually growing up being raised by her stepfather because her mom died? And her stepfather is constantly being encouraged by the people around him to ditch her because he doesn't have any responsibility to her, but she thinks of him as her dad.

Again all, on paper, compelling stuff. But the way that it's dealt with in the show, it just, it all feels like a bridge too far. 

Ben

The show wants you to think about a lot of really interesting ideas and such, but it doesn't want to come forward and say them itself. Like it's always tiptoeing up to something and then peeking in the room, and then walking away from it. It's one of the most frustrating experiences I've had as a viewer in a really long time. The show feels intellectually dishonest.

Nini

That's probably the best way to describe it. This show has roughly 800 convictions and the courage of none of them. It feels so dishonest intellectually. It feels…offensive. It feels…rude.

Ben

I was so angry at the end of episode 9 in a way I have not felt since the final episodes of HIStory3: Make Our Days Count. I don't like moments that should be joyous for queer people being snatched from them to make some sort of cute point in a narrative to seem somehow better than the audience? And it really really pissed me off. 

In this particular instance, it's when Way confesses his feelings to Kim and Pan goes into what she knows is going to be a confession believing this is somehow for her—which is deluded. And then she gets upset during the confession that the confession to the boy whose body she's in is being given to the boy whose body she's in and not to her, the shipper, after earlier chiding the girl she should be developing a lesbian romance with for deciding to project that onto the boy whose body she's in because she misunderstands their dynamic as Kim actually flirting with her. And I was enraged by this show taking a gay moment from a gay boy, and then also running away from a lesbian moment and having the character just be completely out of touch about it—which I guess is maybe the point about shippers, but not the point the show really wants to land on. 

And its final messaging in the last like ten-odd minutes is so deeply disturbing that I have not recovered. So, as we've described here today, Kim and Way are the boys that these girls were projecting all the shipping nonsense onto. We learned that these boys are actually involved in a fairly interesting and complicated gay love story that I actually think would have made for a really compelling story on its own—but I digress—and then…Kim is dead. And so we have to process that particular fact, and these girls believe that the best way they can honor the two boys who they never understood is to keep writing deluded fic about them! And I have not been this disgusted in a really long time.

Nini

And it's presented as valedictory somehow.

Ben

Right? Like they have Way cry, like, weird tears of thanks—I don't know what the hell happened here, and maybe because we can reflect on this now three—three to four years later—maybe this is why they put Aof in charge of all the queer shit after this because this…was a bridge way too fucking far.

Nini

At one point toward the end of our watch I remember just saying out loud “I fucking hate this” to Ben, and I think I kept that mantra up—varying versions of “I fucking hate this” and “I'm so pissed” for probably the last entire episode and a half of this show. 

Before that we were making jokes about psychic damage and eldritch horror. More and more jokes as the show went on, because we were absolutely taking psychic damage watching the show. The show was an eldritch horror. I just did not realize how much of an eldritch fucking horror that it was. 

Gah, listen. It's over. We've learned our lesson. We're never doing something like this again.

Ben

We have no promises to you all about other things we want to catch up on right now, because goddamn do we need a break. If we skipped it, we were correct! And we will not be second guessing ourselves ever again!

Nini

I think that's going to be the rule: if there is something that we both skipped it was for a reason and we should never watch it. Like it's one thing for us to, like, individually like something and recommend it to each other, but I think if there's something that we both skipped, I think that's the new catch up rule. If we both skipped it, it's staying skipped.

Ben

So it is written, so it shall be.

I don't really have a lot of positive things to say. Like, I think the set design was cool, I think the production design was fine. I think overall the performances are strong. The GMMTV talent is consistently solid at the level we expect of them. I don't think anyone else at GMMTV—at the time at least—could have done what First was asked to do in this character, or characters, he's playing, technically, two.

Nini

This is purely a writing fail. There's nothing else that I can point to that is wrong here. This is a hundred percent writing fail.

Ben

So, The Shipper was bad and wrong and offensive and evil. We will not be taking further questions about this show. We have said all that I want to say about this show, and I will not be referring to it going forward. We all deserved better than this.

Nini

I know there are those of you out there who love it. I'm sorry. I'm not one of you, and I am not willing to discuss it at all. 

Ben

I've said my piece and counted to three.

Nini

Amen, and hallelu. Moving on.

59:46 - Next Watches

Nini

So what are we going to catch up on in the summer and talk about in the fall? 

Well…for me, I will finally be getting past my weird reaction to the uncanny valley effect that I get from watching the face smoothing filters on the show and I am going to watch Light On Me.

Ben

Good.

Nini

Ben has been recommending this to me. He recently rewatched it and says that it holds up. Everybody loves this show. I've always intended to watch it but I could not get past the skin smoothing filter. It makes everybody look like a weird robot. It's just unsettling. I am going to fight through my horror of it to actually watch the show. 

[both laugh]

Ben

Jesus Christ.

Nini

And I'm gonna talk about it when we [laughs] when we come down to the fall, so look out for that discussion in October. Ben, what are you gonna watch over the summer?

Ben

[sighs] So, one of our recent pickups—who's been a delight—has watched so many things that I've recommended that I gave her a coupon, which she cashed in on Coffee Prince, which I am currently watching. And Nini has also convinced me to watch Mama Gogo. 

I originally skipped Mama Gogo because I had watched Friendzone, and I had watched Friendzone 2: Dangerous Area, and I just wasn't in the mood for Jojo doing big cast, obnoxious, soap-opera-level drama, and so I just skipped Mama Gogo at the time. We're about to watch Only Friends in probably the next one to three months maybe. I will watch Mama Gogo in preparation for more of Jojo's oeuvre, and then I guess we'll talk about both of those.

Nini

I think you're gonna enjoy Mama Gogo. It's not gay, but it feels gay?

Ben

I have watched Jojo's work. I know what you're talking about.

[both laugh]

Nini

I think you're gonna have a good time with it. 

So, that's what we're gonna be catching up on over the summer and talking about in our Catch Up Corner in October. So, look out for that.

1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend

Nini

So in keeping with our mission to watch things that are queer-adjacent, queer-ish, as well as queer things, Ben and I both watched over this spring Watashi to Otto to Otto no Kareshi—Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend.

Ben, what is this about?

Ben

A mess! Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend is about a Japanese high school teacher who is sexually unfulfilled in her five-year marriage despite having an otherwise devoted and caring partner, who then discovers that her husband—on their anniversary— is making out with some guy right outside their door. In the process of trying to cope with this and deal with this, they end up attempting to form a poly triad with this guy, who her husband is seeing, who turns out to be her high school student who is an adult now. He also had feelings for her, and so they end up in this complicated situation where everyone's trying to take care of everyone. It's a little bit of a hot mess, and the show ends up asking for people to interrogate what their own relationships mean for them, though it ends on a somewhat ambiguous note for our trio. 

There's a lot to unpack along the way there, but the broad strokes is a teacher finds out that her husband is cheating on her with a man, and she decides that they're going to try and make this trio work. Complications ensue.

Nini

‘Complications ensue’ is putting it mildly. I feel muddled about the show, but the show is also pretty muddled, I think. It feels like they were trying to do something. I'm not sure it got all the way there— 

Ben

It did for me!

[both laugh]

Nini

Maybe it did for the audience that they were aiming it towards, which is obviously their local audience in Japan—

Ben

And sad, gay artsy boys like me!

Nini

I'm really curious as to how this was received inside of Japan. Japan's been doing these shows where they try to marry the individual instincts that are related to identity and specifically queer and queer-adjacent, I guess, identities. They're trying to marry that to the collectivist culture. So they're trying to put these shows in front of people like “This is maybe seem a little bit strange to you, but look at how happy everybody is. Isn't it most important that people are happy?” 

And, this one, I think from what I got from it, It seems like it didn't know exactly what it wanted to say about polyamory. There's a polyamorous character, who is Shuhei, who is the…husband's boyfriend, who is also in love with the wife. But the other characters aren't poly but they're still trying to make a poly relationship work.

It's so much! They're trying to stuff so much into this show, and I'm not sure that it entirely works for me. Ben has other ideas.

Ben

They're not poly to start, but no one is really except for characters like Shuhei, and I think that's why I like it. The big thing about being queer is you have to decide what relationships are going to be for yourself. You have to figure out what friendship, romance, and intimacy are going to be for you one person at a time. The etiquette rules of cis-heteronormativity do not apply to you, and so what works for me in this is most of the people who walked into this story were not poly but they did care about the people involved. 

Was being a poly triad the right solution for them? Absolutely not, but at the core you have two people trying to juggle a complicated sense of duty to each other, while also wanting different things from each other and maybe other people, and having to reconcile what all of those things are going to be for each other because they also wanted to honor the vows and choices they made to commit to each other under the previous structures before they got into this. 

So, no, Yuki and Misaki are not poly really in going into this, but opening themselves up to the idea that the way they understand love might not be concrete enables them to find something that puts them maybe on the path to actually being comfortable and cared for, and properly caring to the people that they value.

Nini

I would rock with that except for one very important thing. Yes, they're still working it out at the end. The show does end ambiguously, but the overwhelming feeling I get at the end is not a feeling of hope, it's not a feeling that they are going to work it out—that they're working through it and they're going to get to the place, because I still don't feel like they are being honest with themselves entirely about what they want. 

For example, Misaki, she wants sex and what she ends up with in the poly relationship, and even in sort of a wider polycule that she’s decided that she's putting together, none of it nets her the sex that she wants. But she has talked herself into it as being right for her, while it still doesn't give her what she wants. 

And I think it's very similar to Yuki. Yuki wants to be in a gay relationship. He wants to be in a gay monogamous relationship, and the polycule doesn't give him that either. So it feels like they're not even working towards the things that they want. That they've decided on this as a solution, but it doesn't actually solve anything for them.

Ben

So the reason why it doesn't bother me at the end is I don't need the confirmation. They want you to think about it. It's not about whether or not this polycule works. It's a question of, “Have your thoughts about polyamory changed from spending five hours with these characters?” And so the ambiguity at the end is totally fine for me because you're allowed to project what you hope for onto them, and the question is whether or not you can reconcile what version of their lives looks like. It's the thinking about it that's important for them. 

I totally see…your kind of hopeless read on the situation, but it doesn't bother me because they lean into ambiguity at the end. And so you're allowed to project onto it what you maybe want for yourself, or for those characters. Like, I do agree with you that Misaki wants sex, and they don't confirm her getting sex onscreen, but they confirm her taking charge of her life which to me is at the core of her lack of sex.

Nini

It's not even for me that they don't show her getting sex on screen. It's not like that. It's more about her mindset about it. Instead of that remaining part of her mindset: the fact that she wants sex. By the end she's completely put that thought aside it feels like.

Ben

I think it's implied that her desire for sex is also tied up in her notions of the kind of family they're supposed to have.

Nini

I'm not sure I agree with you there because it's one thing to feel like you should be having sex, and another thing to want sex, and I feel like Misaki wants sex. There is an argument to be made there about doing the things that you're expected to do and not doing the things that you're expected to do. Like, I fully see where the show is going with that with the character of the other teacher—I think it's Misumi—the fact that Misaki is not doing what Misumi thinks that she should do. So Misumi inserts herself into the situation and causes a problem. 

She's trying to fix it because she thinks that Misaki is too weak or too something to do the things that she should be doing, when it's really that Misaki doesn't agree that that's necessarily what she should be doing. I get that part. I'm down with what they're trying to do there, but I didn't get the sense that she wanted to have sex because she thought it's something that she should do. It felt like it was something that she herself wanted and she wasn't getting. 

Maybe I'm getting too involved in the sex of it. Maybe that wasn't the intention.

Ben

They leave who she inevitably chooses…to bang it out with ambiguous and up to the audience, Because for them to confirm in any sort of way I think would lead to too narrow a read on polyamory itself.

Nini

So the idea that they're trying to get across is that this is not about sex. Polyamory is not a sex thing.

Ben

Correct.

Nini

I can accept that take, in terms of what they're trying to put in front of their audience.

Ben

Both of them want sex. Like Yuki wants sex, too, when it comes to Shuhei, but like he's unsatisfied because he can't enjoy it openly the way he realizes he wants to and needs to. And so much of this is about them all having to let go of their preconceptions about what their lives should look like. And so, like, the final scene of the three of them, like, seeking each other out at night, and then just being happy to see each other, works for me because it feels like they see each other, and that's enough for me. Like, I don't have to understand it to get that, whatever they found, it works for them. 

That's how I feel about every polycule I've ever met. I don't always get it, but everybody involved seems all right. Their relationship is not about me. If they say they're happy, I just accept that and move along.

Nini

I'll take that away and think about that, but my overall feel of the show is that it definitely had ideas that it wanted to get across. It had an audience that it was talking to. I think that maybe I wasn't the audience, and that is part of my ambivalent feelings about the show. So, for me, it lands on ‘good,’ obviously has a point of view, obviously has a story it wants to tell. But it's not for me, and that's fine.

Ben

I gave this a 9 because I really engaged with all the ideas the whole way through, and I  was really gripped by the whole of it. I liked how so much of it ends up being about Misaki having to defend her family from herself, from her co-worker, and I like that she's consistently fighting for the boys specifically, and that she cares about them. 

Nini

Ben gives it a 9. I, on quality, give it a 9 and a half.

Ben

Oooh, look at you.

Nini

Like I said, it is a good, objectively good, show. I'm just not the audience for it.

1:15:53 - Spring Roundup

Ben

And we're back! 

Now that we’ve finished catching up on all of the shows—good and bad—it's finally finally time for the Spring Roundup. This week we have our first guest on The Conversation. We have brought my best friend, David onto The Conversation. David, say hello to the people. 

David

Hey, y'all! 

Ben

Okay. [David laughs]

Nini

Hi, David! I'm so excited to have you with us! 

David

I am, too!

Nini

I remember saying to Ben, like, probably around the time the first voice note hit the chat, like, ‘David has to come on the show.’ So, I am very glad that we were able to make it work.

David

I love that. He was telling me that people wanted to hear me, and I'm like, “Look, there are too many people who tell me to shut up. I love this!” [David and Nini laugh]

Nini

That will never be a problem over on this side. 

David

“David talking again.”

Nini

Never shut up, I beg you. [chuckles]

1:16:40 - David Introduction and BL Background

Alright, alright. So, David, tell us about you. Tell us about how you even got into BL. Tell us a little bit about the David story.

David

Um, hoo! I'll say, so I'll start from the BL angle. I got into BL because of Ben. I don't know if he's ever told anyone this story, but me and Ben have two very different takes on Love of Siam. He is not to bring it up in my presence. I feel tricked and deceived. But because of Love of Siam, I didn't even realize that BL was a category, and Ben tried to initially get me into it, but I got really sick for a while. And I wasn't watching with him, and then I started getting over it and the first BL that like fell into my lap because I found it on YouTube was Until We Meet Again. 

And then it was a rabbit hole. I like finished that BL in like I think one sitting. 

Ben

Which is insane. 

David

And I think in that sitting I was texting Ben like, “Oh hell no!” [laughs] And then immediately went and watched another whole show back to back and that was Love by Chance.

Nini

Interesting!

David

Finished that the next night. [Nini laughs] Yeah, girl, I know. I know. 

Ben

It was super annoying having David texting me about old shows because like we're neck deep in like 2021 content. [David laughs] Like that was a busy year. There was a week at one point we had 16 shows to watch and David’s like, “So this show in 2018: I really want to talk about it.” 

David

I was also watching all the current stuff. 

Ben

Yeah, that was a lot. 

David

I was, I think at least six, seven hours a day. For a while it was all BL. 

Ben

According to David's MDL, he's basically current on all of the BL 

David

Yeah. There's maybe like four or five recent ones that I haven't watched, and two of those I was directly told by someone ‘you are not missing anything.’ 

1:18:50 - David’s History with Queer Cinema

Ben

Here's an interesting question because you and I have been in the guts of queer cinema a long time. Prior to BL, what are some of your favorite gay movies that you remember? 

David

Now, of course he knows this is loaded because I'm always gonna say Big Eden.

Ben

It’s so good.

David

One, it like touches my heart. When I'm depressed I watch Big Eden. It's one of the few times where I've been upset at the main queer character almost the entire movie. Henry has issues. But Big Eden is a beautiful movie, and then maybe after that Beautiful Thing, To Wong Foo, Priscilla Queen of the Desert, Bound, Like Water for Chocolate—another lesbian classic. 

Ben

To elaborate on The Love of Siam conversation, we watched Love Siam, and David and I were both deeply repulsed by what happened there. But we contextualized it in different ways. David was furious and was like, “I never want to discuss this film ever again,” and so David was not exactly primed for BL because he was so ambivalent about Thailand.

The big Thai gay things we watched between 2012 and 2017ish…

David

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Ben

…were Love of Siam, Bangkok Love Story—a horrible film.

David

Horrible fucking film.

Ben

The Blue Hour—a good film but really unsettling—and How to Win at Checkers (Every Time). 

David

Lord Jesus.

Ben

So. 

David

Like Thailand routinely came for my throat and I had done nothing to it. Thailand routinely showed up at my front door with these movies like, “Come outside. We ain't gonna jump you,” and inevitably I would open the door and get jumped, and I never learned my lessons. So—

Ben

[laughs] It would always be me leading them. I’m like hey I got this film!

David

Yeah!  It’s Ben. It's Ben. Yeah, no, it wasn't Thai. It was Ben sitting outside with the movies. “Come outside. You won't get jumped.” You said that last time. “Girl, come on, stop talking about old shit.”

[Nini laughs]

Ben

I like the queer angst films. David does not.

1:20:59 - David’s Favorite BL Actors

Ben

So back to BL! For funsies: How about you tell the people of the podcast who some of your favorite boys are. 

David

Ohm and Fluke. 

Ben

She is a My Blue girlie. 

David

Uh, I really am. [whispers] Earth Pirapat. I love him. 

Nini

Why did you whisper it like that?

David

If you hear this, Earth, my one true love. [Nini laughs] My current husband, I love him. He is a placeholder for you. I just want you to know [Nini laughs harder] he can be gone tomorrow, bae. Like it ain’t nothing. Earth, what do you need? Like, I got you. What do you need, Daddy? You need a boat?

Nini

I heard the F at the end of Earth right there and I was like I feel you. I completely understand where you're coming from this moment—not my particular ministry but I feel you.

David

Yeah, thank you, thank you. I had to constantly deal with Ben's malcontent, so thank you for acknowledging…

Ben

I will back up David's Earth girlie bona fides. David has not seen Water Boyy because I refused to let David suffer that loss, but David saw Earth for all of two minutes in Love By Chance and he's calling me “Who is this man! I need to know who this man is immediately!” 

David

I—he came on the screen. I was like “and that's it, yep, right there!” 

Nini

You were officially sprung.

David

Right there! [gross David mouth noises] Yes.

Nini

Oh my God. [laughs]

David

Yeah, Earth. Earth. That's all I gotta say, Earth. That man—whew—Lord.

Ben

David has an appreciation for what he calls ‘the Big Talls’ and—

David

Yeah, I love the Big Talls.

Nini

Fair. You know how I feel about a Big Tall.

Ben

You and Nini can hang out together talking about Man Trisanu—

David

Man! Oof, girl! Not Man! Oh my…girl!

Nini

‘Man.’ Is. Correct.

David

Never has a name so encapsulated a being.

Nini

‘Man’ and ‘tree’ in the same place.

David

Girl. Man. Tree. Mountain. Stud. I mean, look, look, look, Man. Man did the job that he was sent here to do. God Bless him. May Buddha protect him. Like yass. [Nini laughs]

1:23:24 - David’s Thoughts on the Spring Shows

Nini

Okay, so we've got the shows we've got the boys. Let's dive into the season. Talk to me about how you felt about this spring—all the shows we've been watching over the last few months

David 

So, I think I've said this to Ben before. I felt that this season was probably the one of the most extremes. Like there were a few things that were...hmm...misses, kind of, but for the most part we had…duds and bangers. And the bangers made the duds and the misses that much worse. 

We had [The] Eighth Sense, Bed Friend, Our Dining Table, Jack o’ Frost, and everything else was okay, but those are all 10s and they were bangers, and it just made everything—

Ben

How dare you forget La Pluie? I will beat you. 

David

Oh I'm, I'm so sorry, please forgive me sir. [Ben laughs] You're right. I—I'm so sorry, sir. La Pluie. He's right. That was wrong. I do deserve the slapdown that I just received.

Ben

Sat in my house—for 11 of 12 episodes. 

David

In his house—played in his face y'all. Played in this man’s face. In his face like he didn’t know who it was. I’m sorry. La Pluie.

[Nini laughs]

There were a lot of good ones and I think that's why there were so many, many more bad ones. In particular, the most glaring combination is the shows that were basically the same show but one was clearly better.

Step by Step, [A] Boss and a Babe. Look, A Boss and a Babe, I get what they were trying to do but the whole show was a massive misstep, and it was so much more obvious because right after A Boss and a Babe we got Step by Step—which fumbled maybe a couple of times—it fumbled a little—but it stuck the fucking landing. 

Ben

Hmm...

David

I think—oh here—

Nini

Ben is gonna fight you, but David I am on your side!

David

I heard the 'mmm'. She has talked to me about this before. I actually completely agree with what I know she's gonna say, but I still think they stuck the landing in a way that everyone else fumbled and fell on their fucking face.

Ben

Hmm...

Nini

David, you me. You can't see me now but we are shaking hands! We are shaking hands.

David

We are I—I concur. Thank you.

Ben

I’m gonna have a little sip while y’all—

[David and Nini laugh]

1:26:15 - Somewhat Forgettable Shows

Ben

So you mentioned a bunch of shows that really stood out for you. Like, looking over your list, like you already mentioned like Our Dating Sim, Our Dining Table, Step by Step, La Pluie, Bed Friend…looking at the rest of the stuff: What did you genuinely enjoy, but you feel like you have to look at your list to remember that show.

David

Oh, that's a good one. I really enjoy but I have to look at the list to remember it…Our Dating Sim. I liked it but it would never be in the forefront of my mind. But if you bought it up and I saw it in front of it like “I like that.” I felt during this show—I was like ‘oh this is cute.’ 

That's a really good question. Like you liked it but you need to like, be reminded of it. And that would be, yeah…Our Dating Sim, Jack o’ Frost. God bless it, I want to say Naked Dining but Lord Jesus Christ… 

[Ben laughs]

They tr–girl, they’re my top nominee for “Y'all tried it” 

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Ben

David has declared a new entrant into Girl, You Tried. 

Nini

I'm putting it in the notes. What about you, Ben? What's the one or two that you liked but to actually remember you gotta look at the list?

Ben

It's probably…Unintentional Love Story and…Love Mate. These are both shows that I think I gave 9s to, and I would earnestly recommend, but I don't think I would independently bring them up in conversation as like BL Essentials that I really want someone else to watch. 

David

I agree with those, particularly Love Mate. Like, I would put Love Tractor on that list.

Nini

I watched Love Mate and Love Tractor after the fact. Which, by the way, the Koreans have got to get better at naming these shows. 

Ben

Love Tractor is a good one, too! Like, Love Tractor was actually good— 

David

Love Tractor was good. 

Ben

It feels like they missed it. 

David

There was a point where they could have done some stuff faster, and had these boys sucking face quicker—I'm gonna let it be what it was…It was cute, but like I said, it's on that list for me. I liked it but it never comes to the forefront of my mind. 

Nini

I feel like that's fair for both Love Mate and Love Tractor. 

What else did we watch that I have to remind myself that we watched? 

Ben

There were quite a few flops we did not even acknowledge the season. [laughs]

Nini

We're not even talking about the flops—

Ben

David's going on on a face journey right now.

David

Like, my whole, [sighs] There were so many… 've seen fish dumped on the bottom of a boat that flopped less than some—

Nini

Oh my God—

David

Fish gasping for air trying to get back into the sea! “Release me, old man, and I shall grant you three wishes!” Some of this stuff was flippity floppity floopin’ all over the place.

Ben

As I remind David about the trenches that I fought through for eight years of BL. 

David

Here he goes…

Nini

“Oh, all my life I had to fight.”

David

Had to fight David. I had to fight Viki. I had to fight iQIYI—

David

I love BL. 

Nini

Had to fight WeTV!

David

Lord knows I do! 

Ben

I did have to fight WeTV, though, shit.

[everyone laughs]

1:29:25 - Favorite Actor Pairs

Ben

Before we get into some of the cerebral questions about this season, I have one more sort of half-fun question to sort of ease us there. Of the programs that you enjoyed, which actor pairs did you enjoy working together the most—just in the work—not with all of the fan shit around it?

David

Bed Friend. 

Ben

What about Net and James really stuck out for you?

David

The material they were handling, because we can talk about all the high heat stuff—whatever— they were great. Rarely has two people had that kind of sexual chemistry, but the—trigger warning—the sexual assault thing, and how at some point you realize even though he has not told him what happened to him, he knows. And how he is respecting his boundaries and that's coming into the story and they're talking about—without talking about how someone deals with that trauma for the rest of their life. And how it can't help but inform every decision you make, and how you respond to things. 

And I do not think that any other pair could have pulled that off in the same way that Net and James did. As a matter of fact, if you had asked me if I thought they could do it, I probably would have said no.

Ben

Judging on their previous work I would not expect— 

David

—on their previous work, but they were both…fantastic. 

Ben

What about you, Nini?

Nini

My couple of the season? It's gotta be Man and Ben.

David

I'm not even mad.

Nini

I think Man and Ben did a really good job with Step by Step. 

David

I’m not even mad…even though that boy has the ugliest crying face—God bless him—Ben, I love Ben to death, but like his crying face makes me so angry. 

[Ben laughs]

I'm like please teach this child how to cry without scrunching up his mouth like that. I love him, though.

And how tall is Man? 6’9” or something?

Ben

I don't know. It's a lot though.

Nini

Man was on point. Everything he put on screen was on point, and Ben just followed along I think. I think they did really well.

David

I would like to say, too: I don't think we've ever seen…a pursuer really be…emotional. Like if you think about it, how many times have we seen “the guy” going after the person really have a breakdown and cry. There might be some tears. They're upset. They're throwing stuff, but he broke down. 

Nini

He was crying in his baby brother's lap.

David

His brother. He was like ‘what the fuck am I supposed to do?’ And he delivered that! It was completely believable. Like I watched that scene five times. He just loses it. It was completely believable. He was amazing, and I was just like ‘How dare you hurt my redwood?’ 

Nini

The thing that struck me about that scene was that Man couldn't actually produce tears but somehow—that scene—is, like, he is bawling. There are no tears and I'm still feeling everything that he's feeling because just the sound of his voice—everything.

David

It was working and this motherfucker couldn't cry! I was like how dare you! 

Ben

My couple of this season is Title and Pee from La Pluie.

Nini

I knew you were going there.

Ben

Girl, you knew what this was. We did not simp hard enough for Title during the La Pluie discussion.

[David laughs]

That boy is beautiful! He has an incredible smile. Like, they're like ‘I think Tai likes this boy too’ and I'm like ‘that's just Title. He just gives everybody the eye every time he looks at them. He breaks people. It's The Eyes of Kid Midas shit going on here.’

David

You know you can't be looking at everybody like that because even I was like he's a whore. 

[Ben laughs]

You don't look at everybody like that.

Nini

Did I not say that Tai is an alley cat like from jump.

David

And you were right. You were a prophet. You led the march because he's a whore. 

Ben

And he bit that man.

David

And then he bit him.

Nini

No, okay, sorry. We just did not ventilate this enough because I just, like, uploaded the Adult Swim episode today, which means I just listened to it again and I'm sorry we didn't talk enough about how Tai bit that man. We just didn't.

David

He bit a grown man…and then had the nerve to get mad because the man got mad ‘cause you bit him. Do we remember what he said after that? ‘You made me.’ Sir! That is inappropriate in every way shape and form that matters! You can't just be biting people.

Do I want to sometimes walk around and bite people? Yes, because, listeners, some people just deserve to get bit. We all know it, we all secretly think it. Like, don't play. Don't play. Lie to God, don't lie to me. Read your scripture. It's above me. 

All I'm saying…What was I saying? He's a whore. That's what I'm saying.

[Ben laughs]

I lost the thread at some point. 

Ben

They don't have easy characters to portray. Title has to be a likable enough protagonist for people to project onto him before they recognize that he's been in the wrong the entire time. And then he has to be wrong in a way that also makes you want to root for him to get better. And that's super difficult— 

David

Oh…I didn’t think about it like that. 

Ben

And Pee has a difficult character because he has to be all of these things without people asking any questions about his biography. Like, he has to be a perfect romantic interest but not in a way that's distracting. Pee has to portray Patts in such a way that we identify him as the ideal partner that Saengtai has been looking for this whole time, but we need to not ask any questions about him, like where does his money come from, what's the deal with his people, what does he care about outside of Saengtai and taking care of these animals and his friends 

And he encompasses Patts in such a way that he feels like a complete person. Who has turned his interest towards Saengtai in a way that doesn't demand the audience ask any goddamn questions about him. Like, for all the debating about Patts this whole season, nobody stopped to ask a damn question about how does this man's life even function, which I think is also great. Because it means everybody was caught up in Saengtai's bullshit the whole time.

They give such legible performances over the course of the show. There's never a moment where you're confused about what Saengtai or Patts is feeling and why they're feeling it. 

Ben

So we talked about the actors. We loved Net and James this season. We loved Man and Ben. We loved Title and Pee. Who else stood out this season?

Nini

Iijima and Inukai.

Ben

Also Suzuki Kosuke and Honda Kyoya. The Japanese BLs we gave 10s to? Stellar performances. Nobody has looked like such a sap more than Iijima in a long time and that was so lovely to watch. 

1:36:49 - The Changing Nature of BLs

Ben

Let's get into the cerebral. We talked a little bit in the… Adult Swim episode about how intellectually demanding this season felt. 

David, since you've been in a rapid catch up with BL for the last two years…We talked about how emotional the winter felt with Moonlight Chicken, Utsukushii Kare 2, The Warp Effect, My School President, Never Let Me Go— 

David

Back to back to back to back bangers. I don't even know if we've had a season where there were that many back to back to back bangers. 

Ben

Airing concurrently? No, that was a first. However, this particular season as you said, there were really good shows and not so great shows. How do you feel about how much the shows of this particular season required us to lean in, and pay attention to them, and talk about them, and acknowledge what was being said?

David

I think the medium is evolving. I think we're having to lean in more because some shows want us to. They're clearly writing this. They're clearly directing this. They're clearly leading us somewhere where we want you to think about this. It's not all cutesy. And I think that is a maturing of the genre itself.

Ben

Nini, you have any thoughts about the…cerebral nature of this season you want to get out for the lagniappe?

Nini

I talked a little bit about this in the Adult Swim episode, but my brain? She be tired. My brain be so tired like to the point where, over the summer, I'm just watching trash, lighthearted fluff, and one or two things that are making me think a little bit more, but mostly just—yeah—I don't want to think for the next little bit. 

David

Trash is where it's at, yup.

Nini

I'm a Thailand girlie. I go up for the Thai shows most of the time, and every big name in Thailand gave me something to look at, more or less, this season and it was all like…if not the best, it was instructive. It was interesting. It made me think. So, I generally had a good time, but she tired.

Ben

I almost want to say this is where the genre peaks for me. Like I've been wondering what the peak of BL was going to look like for a while. There was a lot of really heavy stuff this season about what queer people are living with and experiencing, and I am curious where BL goes after this. 

1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried

So before we talk about where BL is going next…We've been building towards this all season. It's time to hand out Girl, You Tried. 

[David laughs]

Dave this is your first time on the podcast with us. During the VIIB Awards we handed out an award for a show that. Boy, there were some ideas, there were some performances—they were not in the same meeting. 

David

[laughs] At all. The focus group saw something different. Um, people watched a different show. Some notes got jumbled up. Uh, clearly the director was asleep or just not paying attention. Things happened. 

Ben

Nini, please introduce our contestants.

Nini

For those of you who might be new to us, Girl, You Tried is an award that we give out every season for a good concept that struggled with its execution. So, our four nominees. Four, people! Four nominees for Girl, You Tried this season are: late entry—Naked Dining, original entry—A Shoulder to Cry On, and along the way entries—A Boss and a Babe and Step by Step. 

You've heard us talk about all of these shows across the season, so we're not going to dive too deep. Y'all will have heard the problems that we had with the shows. David, aside from Naked Dining which is the one you put on the list, maybe tell the people why you think Ben and I put specific shows on the list.

David

To be fair, I did not watch A Shoulder to Cry On because Ben dogged that show out so bad I wasn't even gonna give it the time of day. So, um, I can't vote on A Shoulder to Cry On. 

Naked Dining takes it home for me because they were both annoying. They both were getting on my nerves, and this weird thing that they love doing in Japan, where people take off for prolonged periods of time and don't talk to one another…is obnoxious. There were all these weird near misses, and the food was supposed to be more central but it really wasn't. Some things just didn't make sense and no one would explain it. Normally that's okay, but there are things that are central to the story that just didn't make sense. 

Ben

How did they try? 

David

What they tried for was cute little cooking show with a side of romance. What they got was day-old, discounted bread. They wasted my time and my soul. It was a waste. If we're taking it down to brass tacks, they tried…something…I don't know what it may have been.

Maybe they were trying to do a cooking show. Maybe they were trying to do a show about kitchen safety, and why you shouldn't be in your kitchen naked. I really don't know what they were trying to do. 

Ben

Nini, we've talked about a lot of these shows a lot. Who is your winner for Girl, You tried for this season?

Nini

Well for me, it's always gonna be who, with like some nips, some tucks, some tweaks, would have been a 10 for me? That's my criterion, and for me that show is Step by Step, ‘cause Step by Step was like, I think I ended up giving it like a 9.

Ben

Yeah, you gave it a 9…

Nini

Yes, I did! I truly think that with a couple of nips and tucks and tweaks like Step by Step could have been a 10 show for me. I just enjoyed whatever Tee was doing. I…was into the ideas that he was playing with. You know I'm a vibesy bitch and I was feeling the vibe of Step by Step. 

But! It needed some—some tidying—it needed some cleaning up. Like I said, some nips, some tucks, and it would have been essential for me. So yeah, Step by Step. That's my winner. How about you, Ben?

Ben

I went back and listened to some of our stuff in preparation for the Girl, You Tried award, and I think the fact that we had a gaming company and a team of gamers and they never did anything with that as a potential crossover feels like a huge miss from the writing standpoint, which means that they were barely paying attention. That's a huge knock in the ‘you're not really’ trying section of the board for me. And I think just listening back, the intensity with which I was criticizing Step by Step is basically the built-in answer for me. 

I love Tee a lot, as a creator, as a queer person, and…I'm always rooting for him, but goddamn does he make it hard sometimes.

[David and Ben laugh]

Nini

Ben said Tee’s that friend you have who's right, but damn, shut the fuck up. [laughs]

Ben

Drink your juice, Shelby! 

David

Tee really is. Girl, you shoulda just sat there and ate your dinner. Tee really is that friend. See! Just sit there, just eat. 

Ben

Like, the reason why it's Step by Step is, as an entertainer, Tee—I think—broke trust with his audience. And he really misfired there, because, like, there are so many good ideas in Step by Step, and he's got a really good eye as a director. He's a really legible storyteller but he's got to figure out how to put these things together. He's got to figure how to structure his episodes more effectively. And so for me, it ends up being Step by Step because I can feel the show that Step by Step wants to be more than the other shows on this list. 

Like, Naked Dining doesn't know what it wants to be. A Shoulder to Cry On got edited to all hell because of the idols involved. And what the fuck was New even doing with the bunch of fucking gamers in a workplace BL? Anyway. So, it’s Step by Step.

Nini

All right. The dubious honor of Girl, You Tried for Spring 2023 with two- thirds of the votes [laughs] goes to Step by Step.

David

I amend my vote. You have talked me out of my vote. I will now amend my vote: Step by Step clears the board! 

Ben

The whole panel! [laughs]

David

It'll be the only award show it ever sweeps. 

[Nini laughs]

Nini

Sorry! So it's now unanimous.

David

Minus ones across the board.

Ben

Alright, panel, 10s or chops? Nini?

Nini

One chop.

Ben

Two chops.

David

Three fucking chops. [Nini laughs] 

I don't see it!

1:46:56 - Looking Ahead

Ben

Our final section: Looking Ahead. What do we have up next? Nini, you've got the list.

Nini

Well, what are we watching right now? So let's start with that. So, one of the things that we're watching now [sighs]...I'm just gonna say it. We're watching Be My Favorite. I am on record on this podcast as saying that I had zero interest in watching Be My Favorite. Ben said he was going in hostile—which, he did. 

We had to literally amend the name of our chat for the show, like as the show went on. What did it start as?

Ben

Not Our Favorite.

Nini

I was not watching at that point. It went from Not Our Favorite to Maybe? It's Good?? to We’re Mad This Might Be Good. And then now our chat is just called UGH! FINE!!

[David laughs]

David

So I slugged my way through the very first episode, and when he had said it was like the first time in a long time that me and him have both been like ‘absolutely not’ and then…two weeks later this bitch goes “so Be My Favorite” and I turn—aghast, of course—because I thought not only had that ship sailed but we waited until they got at the harbor and we sank it. 

And I discover that homegirl down here is taking a sub to go look at its remains. Then of course, because I'm like no this has got to be a complete disaster, because there's no way this Miss Thing went back to his show and now I'm sitting here like “Ugh…okay.” 

Ben

What else is on the “Wow are we actually watching this?” list. 

David

I know it's not Hidden Agenda. 

Nini

It is Hidden Agenda.

David

I haven’t watched it yet because I was gonna let Ben watch it. I'll be like if Ben hates it I won't bother watching it. But I don't want to start watching this shit, and like it, and have this bitch hate it, and not have anybody to watch this show with. 

Ben

I don't hate it! I don't think I'm sold on it yet. But I don't hate it. 

David

Someone told me that they have definitely gotten better…as acting, now, one show under.

Ben and Nini

Hmmmmmmmmmm...

David

No! Not the both of you! Not the both of you!

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Not the both of you going 'hmmmm' like a starting up race car. I am so mad that you both at the, nearly a second apart 'hmmmm'

[Everyone laughs]

Nini

Here's the thing, right? [David continues laughing] I wasn't going to watch it, then I found out it was Tee and then I was like “well shit, now I have to watch it” because I am contractually obligated to watch everything that he makes after Lovely Writer.

David

Understood.

Nini

This is giving me such Lovely Writer teas in some very specific ways, but it's too early to tell as yet— 

David

What are we? Three in, or two in?

Nini

Three in. Yeah, it's too early to tell—like, with Tee you got to give it half the show. Because, like, when I think about Lovely Writer like around four is when it started turn, and by six I was like ‘yeah, okay, in.’ 

With Tee, he's a slow burn motherfucker. You just got to give him time to get into it. So I am holding my thoughts on it…so far, but I am contractually obligated to watch it all the way through.

Ben

David and I caught up on Laws of Attraction this weekend. It's a lot of fun. We're having a great time. 

David

I love him. 

Ben

He’s talking about the insane lawyer. 

David

His level of outright ridiculous sissiness. I live for. It is walking gay chaos…and I…live… for every moment he is on the screen. And somehow each shirt got gayer.

Like, I don't know if he's having conversations with people in costuming, or if he is like pointing at a random poor little assistant and going “You I want you to go to a woman's blouse store and get the ugliest, most asymmetrical shirt you can.”

Ben

[laughs ]And it better be champagne-colored!

David

“And you are to bring it back here, and I swear to God, if it's not earth-toned or champagne…I will beat you to within an inch of your life. Go do your job and get out of my face.” 

He is giving me everything because, look, girls, gays, and theys with guns—I'm here for. And when he goes to that office trying to beat that boy up, and he pulls out that gay-ass little gun… and goes, “Look, Boo-Boo, I'mma put one in you one way or another.” 

[Nini laughs]

I live. I live! I was resurrected. I had bronchitis and he cleared it up. It resurrected me. That whole scene healed me in body and spirit. I'm not gonna even lie.

Nini

So I am not watching this. I am waiting for somebody to tell me I must watch this. 

David

Oh girl, you're not missing anything. Do not get us wrong! You are not missing cinéma vérité by any stretch of any one's fucking imagination. But what I will tell you is that it is delightful.

Ben

Also from Thailand, we are watching Be Mine Superstar.

Nini

When I was talking earlier about a trash watch. This is what I was talking about. [laughs] 

David

I have not been watching it because it was another one that I was kind of waiting to see what Ben was gonna say.

Ben

Be Mine Superstar is fine. It is…very watchable. It isn’t asking a lot of me right now. I'm having a good time with the performances. Overall, it is a low stakes watch for me, and I'm with Nini. Like I'm having a great time with the big pieces but I don't mind having just a very watchable show where it's very clear that Ja and First are having a good time playing against their type. 

David

Okay!

Ben

Okay, we're gonna talk about the shit I care about!

Nini

Now Ben wants to talk about Japan.

Ben

Let's talk about Japan! 

David

Oh, here she go. Buckle up, folks. It's gonna be a bumpy night. 

Ben

Japan is currently airing two shows. I am living my best life! 

Currently, we have Tokyo in April is… which is the first new outing from MBS, who have continued their Drama Shower rotation. A lot of you may not be familiar with who MBS is but they are a Japanese broadcasting network. It is very, very cool that MBS is invested in BL because they have produced some of the most important shit that's worked its way out of Japan into the masses, like some of the most famous anime comes from MBS. Very, very cool that MBS is committing an entire second year to BL and they are continuing to get more gritty with the kinds of stories they're willing to tell along the way, and I am really, really impressed with Tokyo in April is… and I don't want to say anything else right now because we have a lot to unpack when we finally discussed it in fall! 

Also, Minato’s Laundromat 2 is airing right now, and while Nini may never watch Minato's Laundromat 2 so we'll probably not discuss it on this show except for me saying like it deserves a VIIB Award later, it is really cool that the showrunners opted to abandon the source material for the second season. 

From Korea we have Jun & Jun right now. If you are kind of bougie about Korean production, I don't think you're going to enjoy this one. 

Finally, Taiwan is back! Oh my god, Taiwan is back and it's as cracked out as ever! Holy shit Stay by My Side is so stupid! I love it! 

[David laughs]

We have needed a stupid BL for a while, and like it's not stupid in a sense like the plotting is bad, the storytelling is bad, but it's just so silly. It's like what if we take all these goofy BL tropes and just ramp that up to 9! Not 10, just 9! 

We don't know when Man Suang is going to come out. We're anticipating it but we have no idea when it's going to release because they are doing the international festivals circuit thing.

David

A friend of mine got into a viewing of it. Apparently it's good. Sincerely good. 

Nini

There is something else coming out of Drama Shower that I don't have on the list because it only came up recently. My Personal Weatherman. That is what it’s called.

And the last one, which I am obligated to mention because my baby Na Naphat. Na and ISBANKY is in it and Saiparn from Midnight Museum. It's Club Saipan Fine: Moments and Memories. 

Ben

That looks like a goddamn mess.

Nini

It looks exactly like the kind of trash that I need to watch, and it’s only four episodes.

Ben

I'm glad it's only four episodes, so you can report back quickly because goddamn I am not doing that one. 

David

Ben look harrangued—and traumatized—right now. [Ben laughs] He's huddling on the floor in the corner shaking his head. 

Nini

It's mess and lesbians.

David

Oh wait! There are lesbians in it?

Nini

Yes.

David

And here we are! We're there. That's it, that’s it. I'm watching it. 

1:57:44 - Outro

Ben

As we wrap this up, David, thank you for joining us as our very first guest on The Conversation. 

David

Oh god this was awesome.

Nini

I just want to let the people know that we've been here for two hours. I don't know how long the edit's going to be but we've been having a goodass time.

Ben

I think we just take, like, the necessary stuff for the episode and then just release a bonus episode and just call it the David Cut. [David laughs]

David

It's the David Cut where I talk in a gravelly voice. 

Ben

David, since we are together we have to do the thing for Nini because she's been waiting for it for a long time. 

Let's remind our listeners something very important: Dick is abundant.

David

And low in value. 

Ben

Dick futures are not a safe investment. 

David

The NASDICK is trending down.

Nini

[crying] The NASDICK…

Ben

I'm making sure it's the NASDICK—I said NASDICK and I almost killed Ben. The first time I said the NASDICK is trending down and almost killed one of my best friends.

Nini

[laughs] On that note, I think it's time to wrap, and we will bid you all adieu until the fall. David, Ben, say bye to the people. We out.

David

Bye! Thank you guys for having me! It was great! 

Ben

Peace!