#Bajoran Faith

[obrienmustsuffer]

pray

[boreal-sea]

I don't feel like I have enough deep knowledge of Judaism yet (despite converting for over a year) BUT I just really want to talk about or have a fun conversation about how much there is in common between the Bajoran faith and Judaism??

Both are extremely time-focused in their rituals and celebrations. There are multiple celebrations throughout the year that mark specific events. There's the Gratitude Festival for example, and the Cleansing Ritual.

They also have regular temple gatherings where it seems they (or at the very least the Vedics) discuss various writings of the Prophets. And they argue about the interpretations of the prophecies! These are their holy texts and they argue about them, just like Judaism. I love it.

Their rituals of death are also similar. There seems to be an accepted "normal" period of mourning a person is expected/allowed to do. Again, this mirrors some rituals in Judaism about mourning.

Fire also plays an important role in both religions, including lighting a flame for a loved one who has passed. Fire is also featured many other times during Bajoran festivals, more than I can name individually. The Gratitude Festival, for example, involves burning slips of paper with your problems written on them.

And fasting and feasts!! Many of the Bajoran holidays involve fasting and feasts! The one that comes to mind right away is the Cleansing Ritual, which is a month-long fast. There was also Ha'mara, a newer holiday that marked the anniversary of the arrival of the Emissary. There was a day of feasting and celebration followed by a day of fasting.

[simptasia]

antisemitic trekkies have a staggering amount of gall

[worflesbian]

also today i was discussing with my flatmate who's not seen next gen or voyager how much klingon worldbuilding ds9 did but also how little it really brings up their spirituality? which is funny given how much heavy lifting ds9 does representing religion in general that they did a lot more fleshing out of almost every other aspect. of course this ended with me narrating barge of the dead to her shot by shot

[joshuaalbert]

another thing I do wish had at least come up in ds9 while talking about the bajoran faith is the idea of just like. secular bajorans. I think the way they’re written that’s kind of ‘everyone just believes in the religion and that’s it’ is honestly a little flat? but I think there would be people who have a very complicated relationship with the prophets, who maybe didn’t believe in them before the events of the show and now maybe they have to but they think of them more as the wormhole aliens rather than gods, or just don’t believe (anymore, if they once did) that they should be worshipped because they allowed the events of the occupation to happen. but that wouldn’t mean entirely disengaging from the practices of religion as a community thing, or as comfort in times of need bc sometimes that sense of ritual can be a good one, who still wear the earring not so much as a sign of faith but just as a sign of being bajoran and being connected to their people.

idk not to sound like I’m overexplaining secular approaches to an ethnoreligion when that’s a lot of people’s lived experience but I’m just kind of thinking about what it would look like in this context, and I don’t know that it ever would have been a whole plotline but I think a mention could have been interesting. maybe something as small as rearranging duty schedules and it’s something that would interfere with religious services, but a couple specific bajorans are willing to take that because they’re not religious, and it’s a one line mention (which is the kind of thing ds9 often did well so it would feel natural), but it makes them a little less homogenous as a species.

[roguetelepaths]

concept. ex-Borg Bajoran saves the metal from their implants after getting them removed, and melts them down to make a new earring

[kiranerysismyhero]

the part of my brain that is constantly thinking about f/f rarepairs started pondering the idea of what if Deanna Troi met Kira what would they think of each other etc when i was struck with the thought

Deanna: "So, I hear you used to date my stepfather. What was that like?"

[bijoumikhawal]

Rotating siskarak in my mind again

[specialagentartemis]

#but for real I think one of the most underexplored things in ds9 #is the impact on bajorans of getting unambiguous proof that their gods are fully literally real and they're Right There #you can hop in a shuttle and visit them #like HOW is that going to impact people's faith #there also should have been waaaaay more religious schisms (tags via @ontologicalsynaesthesia)

the religious storylines on ds9 are crazy if you really think about it. imagine being in the mall and seeing the gates of heaven open outside auntie anne's pretzels

[cringedog]

Emotional about kira nerys… like her entire life was under the cardassian occupation and she experienced so much pain and trauma for years and years but the show begins right as it all ends. Her story starts after she’s endured the worst and so her entire arc is about living on after trauma. Figuring out how to reconcile the person she had to be to survive with the person that she’s now able to grow into. She’s living on deep space nine and she’s getting three meals a day and sleeping in a soft bed for the first time in her life. She’s this skinny angry thing in season one and you can literally see her gain healthy weight over the course of the series. She dates around she has a child she falls in love she changes her hair. And she holds on to bajoran faith and culture like a lifeline because it is. I’m not even saying anything novel here this is like the premise of her character arc but it’s just so insane to me. I love her so much

[jennelikejennay]

Just once I'd like to see an alien who doesn't belong to the one universal religion of their planet.

"I'm sure you think you're being very culturally sensitive by saying peldor joi, but did you know three percent of Bajorans are atheists? To say nothing of our various minority religions and imported belief systems. Just wish me happy holidays!"

Also it would be fun to see a Betazoid who worshipped Kahless or something. Faith is weird, growing up surrounded by one is no guarantee you won't end up something else.

[boreal-sea]

One thing that's interesting to me about Kira Nerys is that religiously, I think she's rather orthodox/conservative, and I like that about her!

Points of evidence: she admits that early on with her associations with Vedek Bareil that she staunchly disagreed with him on many of his interpretations of the words of the Prophets. Vedek Bareil is presented as being more liberal and progressive in his views, so we can conclude from this that Kira may be more on the orthodox end of the spectrum compared to Bareil.

She doesn't disagree with Vedek Winn about the teaching of the Bajoran children and the wormhole, and even suggests that perhaps the Bajoran children would be better served in a separate school. When several Bajoran officers don't show up in protest of the school, Kira defends them. She and Sisko actually have a rather heated argument about it.

None of Kira's later disagreements with Winn are about Winn's religious views, but rather her bloodthirsty political ambitions. I think, were Winn not so power hungry and willing to twist the Bajoran faith to serve her personal goals, she and Kira probably would've gotten along rather well.

And there is of course the episode where all the Bajorans are expected to go back to their "D'jarras" - to return to a caste-based system. Kira goes along with it, even though she admits she's terrible at art. I imagine there were likely other Bajorans who refused. Kira isn't happy about it either, but I found her willingness to go along with it interesting.

Kira is overall very observant of Bajoran faith rituals. All Bajorans are shown as being very faithful in the show, but Kira very strongly leans on her faith as a point of both pride and strength.

[zarohk]

As a Jewish person I love the Quarians!

I also feel like the Quarian-Geth conflict is the best depiction of the Israel-Palestine conflict, in the sense that: it’s extremely confusing; even people who think that they’re outside looking in have biases and strong vested interests; differing claims with many different ideas of what peace looks like; a conservative government that once conflict much more than the majority of people; and nobody can agree on anything, except at the current situation is not good.

(There are so many ways in which the Quarians are clearly displaced Palestinians, overlooked by international organizations, and the Geth are like Israel, with many international allies, and better military technology.)

(There are many ways that the Geth are Palestinians who are made second-class citizens in their own land while the Quarians are Israelis who are persecuted most places they go except for the homeland they’re attempting to reclaim.)

TLDR: BioWare did an amazing job of depicting generational conflict in which there are no clear, right answers.

bajorans 🤝 quarians

certified Jewish aliens because I am Jewish and they give me Jewish vibes in different ways

[lostyesterday]

I enjoy Kira/Keiko as a ship, but I wish that most of the discussion about them didn’t center on the “O’Brien polycule”. I’m interested in how their dynamic changed from vaguely adversarial in “In the Hands of the Prophets” to friendly in later seasons. I want to know how they navigated the differences in their opinions on faith and religion. I want to know if/how Keiko’s thoughts on Bajoran religion changed over time. I want to know if Kira experienced any lingering resentment toward Keiko. I want to know how long it took them to become friends – if one or both of them made a great effort to mend the divide between them. I want to know if they have disagreements after that or if they carefully try to avoid speaking about topics where their opinions differ. There’s a lot that’s potentially interesting about their dynamic outside of how it relates to Miles.

[greenflower21]

I wish people would stop treating Kira’s faith like something detrimental to her strength as a character— like, as if being religious makes her any less “good” in their eyes.

Kira is a deeply religious person- it is one of my favorite things about her as a character. It does give her a layer of complexity we don’t usually see, but I wish we could re-frame this and stop thinking about her religion as a type of complexity usually looked at by fans as a moral shortcoming.

Yes, I know it is difficult for socially “progressive” people in our current political climate to see religious characters and not immediately equate their religion with bad things and oppression. But in reality religion, like people, is many layered, diverse, complicated, and so so important to so many people and societies. Religious belief does not always equal Political conservatism and/or oppression: equating the 2 is actually harmful to communities like mine. Like the Bajorans, Jews have survived countless tragedies, and yet we are still here: we are still here, because we didn’t relinquish who we are, which in many cases (not all) is our faith and religious practice. The Bajorans were almost obliterated— their faith united them and kept them going— THIS, is why people like Kira felt so threatened when the federation tried to come in and suppress it (even though they meant well)— Kira’s opposition to Keiko O’Brien teaching Bajoran students about the wormhole isn’t bc she has some kind of moral flaw bc of her religion, it’s because she almost saw that essential piece of their culture destroyed. And if the Cardassians didn’t manage to destroy it by force, the federation just might destroy it by way of “benevolent” assimilation. She isn’t being “anti Science,” she’s just not on board with the idea of the federation totally ignoring and rejecting her people’s autonomy and cultural beliefs. And as a religious Jew, I can definitely understand where she is coming from.

As a socially progressive person, AND as an Orthodox Jew, I love representation like Kira Nerys, because it makes me feel so seen. I too care about fighting injustice. I also love Hashem and I love my culture and I resent the way that secular people talk about us as if we don’t live up to their moral standards because we believe in G-D and have a lot of intricate practices to show that belief that don’t make a lot of sense to them. (Assimilation is in itself a form of oppression you know)

Kira being religious is a beautiful part of her character. Yes, it makes her “complicated,” but not in that it adds flaws. It adds culture and love and faith and community and passion and so so many things. It makes people like me feel seen and valued. You know what doesn’t make people like me feel seen and validated through? People talking shit about faith and acting like it’s a character “flaw” that hinders someone’s ability to be the perfect paragon of “progressive” virtue. .

[multiverserift]

I really like Kira Nerys. Let's discuss her and organized religion A hothead, experienced freedom fighter, child soldier, passionate, kind, really good at self-control. In [DS9 S01E19: Duet], she learns that life can be complex and difficult and ultimately learns to forgive Marritza. She learns that hate has to end at some point to make peace. But there is one aspect of Kira that I always find unnerving: Her absolute blind spot when it comes to faith. And DS9's handling of organized religion. 01. Bajoran Culture and Cultures in Star Trek Because Kira is the Bajoran character we see most, and the only fleshed out character where "being Bajoran" is a major character trait, we mostly experience the culture through her. Yes there's Leeta, but there is just a single instance where it plays into the story that she's Bajoran. [DS9 S05E20: Ferengi Love Songs]. Leeta wants a Bajoran wedding, while Rom tries to hold onto what's left of his Ferengi identity. Rom ultimately lets go of all the Ferengi stuff. Good for him. Of course there is also Kai Winn, but her stories mostly circle about her being Kai Winn, not her being a Bajoran. There is a single instance here too, where her Bajoran identity plays into the story, and her past during the Occupation. ([DS9: S05E10 Rapture]) She explains that she teached the faith of the prophets and was imprisoned for it. The other Bajoran characters are less fleshed out characters. Shakaar, Lupaza, and Furel. Even Li Nalasm remember him? Ro Laren is there of course, but her job was to create conflict in the perfect world of the Enterprise-D. Not being Bajoran, primarily. Star Trek does this more than once. Experiencing a whole culture through a single character. For a long time, Spock was the only fleshed out Vulcan we got to see, besides one episode with Sarek. Plus Sarek in the movies. It took decades until Tuvok showed us more than Spock's perspective. And ENT with T'Pol and the Vulcans arc finally fleshed out the species more. Jadzia is the only Trill that matters. Kind of a one trick pony species. The people with the symbiotes. And when Ezri finally shows up, we learn a bit more about them when they're not centered about their symbiotes. Cardassia is a good counter-example: We have Dukat, Damar and Garak to show us Cardassian culture from various perspectives. Plus the Tribunal episode, TNG's torture of Picard ("There are four lights!") We learn a lot about Cardassia. The DS9 treatment of the Ferengi will always be top notch.

02. Kira and Religion So back to Bajor, Kira and religion. Hehe, Bajor Kira. Sorry. As a non-religious man, I have my problems sharing her point of view. Trusting in faith, even when it contradicts rationality. There are two main storylines that illuminate this problem: 1. [DS9: S04E17 Accession] 2. Kira's relationship with Kai Winn. In Accession, Akorem Laan takes over the job as Emissary and installs himself as a conservative, even reactionary, religious leader. Bajorans are told to follow their d'jarras. A caste system. And Kira as our PoV Bajoran, simply....does it. Her D'jarra is Ih'valla, the artists caste. She actually had to struggle with this before. In [DS9: S02E02 The Circle] she tried living in the monastery with Bareil. She tells him she sucks at being an artist. Kira really tried. So when Akorem takes over the religious leadership (maintaining a good working relationship with Kai Winn, what a red flag), Kira shows us how Bajor reacts. They simply.....comply? Odo even tries out the sceptical, rational PoV. Kira just brushes it aside. DS9 does this a few times, actually. Respecting their characters' choices rooted in faith. Odo fighting Weyoun calling him a god on every occasion. Worf and Kira agreeing on Sisko's choice of trusting the Prophets in [DS9: S05E10: Rapture]. Weyoun 6's sacrifice. Even Quark's little prayers to his piggybank. What I really dislike about the plot of Accession is the Deus Ex Machina. The characters are not confronted with their choices. Akorem Laan and Vedek Porta don't go to jail for murdering some guy. Kira doesn't have to deal with supporting a regime that got opressive in a heartbeat. What I would have really liked to see were the Bajorans that disagree. The ones Akorem threatens with deportation. Sorry, our 45 minutes are up, the Prophets endorse The Sisko, Akorem is gone. Kira even still likes his poetry! Yay! Pity. I would have loved to see the consequences. And see if Kira finds a way to deal with blind obedience. Which brings me to my second point. 03. Kira Nerys and Kai Winn

While Gul Dukat is mainly Sisko's antagonist, Kai Winn is Kira's. She basically killed Kira's boyfriend, cashed in on his accomplishments and literally stole his fame, after she cheated her way to becoming Space Pope. Which would have been him. Bareil. Interesting side story: Bareil does the same thing Kira does. He blindly trusts the religious system. Bareil doesn't question Kai Winn's authority. Well, then she kills him by overworking him, and he lets her. Gladly. He decides to get killed. Because he trusts the Prophets. There's another side question here. Are the Prophets to be trusted? Are they doing good things for Bajor? or are they selfish? I basically think they're selfish af, and I can explain. But that's a story for another time.

So Kai Winn did a terrorism in [S01E20: In the Hands of the Prophets], gets people killed, supports an insurrection (but to be honest, her support never got public), cheats herself to be Pope, nearly starts a civil war because of Shakaar. Kira is in a powerful position. She is one of the most trusted advisors to the Emissary of the Prophets, is an administrator of DS9, was a member of the famed Shakaar Resistance Cell. She obviously has power. Military power, political power. She knows how to play politics. There is a dialogue about this in [DS9 S01E13: "Battle Lines] And she obviously knows Kai Winn is horrible. Dangerous. When does she talk back? Once. She does it once. In [DS9 S02E24: The Collaborateur], she is snarky and gets scolded by Winn. She never openly defies her again. Kira is complicit with a religious organisation that constantly punishes her for it. That would force her into a career she hates. That killed her boyfriend and robbed his dead body. Kai Winn even gloats over it a few episodes later. And in Accession, we see the climax of this: Even when the religious regime gets captured by bad people, she complies. 04: Fazit I would have loved to see Kira deal with the contradictions. See people who don't comply with Kai Winn's church. Who challenge that system. Because like in our world, organisations can and will be captured by bad players, in bad faith. The ability of political structures to withstand capture and abuse is essential. This always starts with the people being able to recognize it and fight back. I don't like it. I'm more like Odo. Rational, naturalistic. I don't understand how one can think with religious faith. Especially because Kira has such a temper and a sense for injustice. She challenges Winn from within the system, yes. With Shakaar. For a while. Then Shakaar loses steam as a character and we don't delve further into the matter. Simply DS9 having enough depth to allow such discussions about their characters is one if the reasons I love it so much. Stay safe out there, people. Stay vigilant in the face of powerful people. Thank you for reading.