#And the social groups themselves aren't even big enough for the scale that true fascism and capitalism exist at

[bonefall]

I definitely see your point about the pro-xenophobia messaging, though I've always liked about Needletail's character how she knew the Kin were violent and romanticized a more violent life to give her purpose as opposed to being just a poor deceived innocent.

And I've personally never minded the inconsistent ideology because sometimes people (particularly very young people) can be inconsistent like that, shifting their ideology to oppose the status quo on every front even if it doesn't internally make sense. I don't think one incident of showing the rebellious faction like that would erase your planned many arcs of showing xenophobia as bad and those who fight against it as good. 

@halogenwarrior

It's less that I mind the idea of the ShadowClan apprentices not having a strong ideological framework (especially as young people, it's perfectly consistent they're still working out what exactly fits into their moral system) it's more that they don't seem to have... anything at all.

Radicalization, politics

Every time the cats lose their moral center in the books, every time, they go from "Having Society" to "THROW OLD PEOPLE INTO THE WOODS, EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF, MURDER IS OK!"

You still need to start with some sort of value to exploit at all when you're talking about radicalization. Fascists specifically are notorious for having a GIANT list of internal contradictions ("The enemy is both strong and weak" is even named in Umberto Eco's 14 points of Fascism), but to have a contradiction in those beliefs, multiple things must be believed.

(will the kin be specifically fascist though, like Tigerstar? ...I'm leaning towards no, I'm thinking of modeling more general cults/communes specifically. I'm still in the early stages though.)

Besides, I don't want to throw my hands up and be like, "All my other reduxed arcs are thematically good, so it's ok if this one is bad!" (or, thematically consistent vs this one being a contradiction, but I'm being hyperbolic to make a point, you get me?)

So, back to the apprentices,

The apprentices need to believe something. They need to have actual grievances, even if they aren't wise enough to articulate them, even if they aren't correct, even if they buy the wrong solution... I would like there to be some truth to their initial grievances.

(especially tragic, then, for them to follow the wrong solution through Darktail. For Berryheart, arcs later, to think that her initial concerns were wrong because she was deceived. A sort of self-blame, because if you can change yourself, it gives you control over what happened to you.)

There's usually some source of real instability in situations like this. IRL it's typically economic problems, and then social problems are sold as 'causes' and they're brought to the wrong solution. In the arcs I've crafted so far, Clan Culture itself is the biggest source of conflict. It follows, and is consistent, to continue that.

So I'm looking for something that can draw in ex-Dark Forest trainees that feel othered, young apprentices sick of the clans not working together, people with real problems, which Darktail manipulates into, ironically, the very kinds of senselessly violent types they initially hated.

Needlepaw and Sleekwhisker

I actually do like how rough Needletail is in-canon and I do want to keep it. Though with Sleekwhisker specifically, something in canon REALLY bugs me.

In that first book of AVoS, do you remember how Alderpaw meets Sleekpaw and he's like... bothered by Sleekpaw's "Open Disrespect" where she's saying stereotyping is not good? "Omg she's just saying that you shouldn't judge someone based on where they were born... where is her mentor..." maybe it's petty but WOW that bugs me. Alderheart, your grandpaw was Fireheart, why is this such a radical statement to you?

I think that SHOULD be a radical statement by the standards of the culture, but of all cats, the one who's deeply self-conscious of himself, who is descended from THE kittypet and also is Tigerkin... Alderheart should be thinking, "This is comforting but I'm worried she'll get in trouble"

Sleekwhisker I would really like to make into someone who was a bright beacon at the beginning of the arc, and by the end, is unrecognizable, and beyond saving. I care her.

So that was a lot of waffling without a central point, so, I think the best way to sum everything up is... the inconsistency bothers me. So I want to make it different.