#And I'm starting on minimum wage per hour

[fantastic-mr-corvid]

Thinking about rough prices for future commission sheet, and my art app only records the time your pen is touching the screen and drawing... from about a year ago I timed myself and the actual time is roughly 5 times that. Guess I'll just have to remember to time myself on my next few drawings

[avvocarlo]

work pissing me the fuck offfff bro

[micahulrichdraws]

I come in peace! I don’t wanna try to convince you to take commissions! But I am curious about why you’re so strongly against them, did you have a bad experience working on one? Anyway, love your stuff, your tarot designs go so hard

Thanks for the love!! The reason isn't a bad experience or some such, it's 19 years of being a professional artist and knowing the field!

TLDR: I'm a traditional pen and ink illustrator, so it's not financially viable or creatively fulfilling.

I'm always down to talk art business, so here's a brief breakdown wall of text:

On the financial side, commission designs are almost always done at a net loss/break even for the artist, and I'm no exception. They're alright for starting out, or if you're looking to incorporate them into your marketing (IE: doing a poster design for a band to gain exposure), but typically they're roughly half the cash-per-hour for any established artist VS making an original design, and creating a print run of it.

Example: while tons of folks would look at someone charging $1k USD for a commission and think that it would be crazy cash, once you break down the math, it's pretty bad. An average design for me takes on average 30-40 hours, and that's because I don't have to communicate with anyone else. I'm just drawin' my idea. Assuming this is a dream client who has the mind-meld with me, wire transfers the $1k straight into my bank account the second it's done, that's roughly $25/hr. Once again - this looks *great*, that's around $50k/yr from drawing custom stuff! But that's not how it works. First of all, most folks would lose their *minds* at paying $1k for a commission - over the years I graphed it out, and back when I was a less-established artist, most folks would start with a budget of $100, have their limits pushed at $300, and outright refuse $500. You have to sift through all of those folks in order to get that reasonable commission. That includes folks who aren't willing to commit to a commission, don't want to say no to the price, but will still take up your time. Roughly, for me at least, 10 hours a week of it. You'll also have to run collections on roughly 20% of your customers - they may pay the deposit, but you'll have to chase them for the final payment. Even if you take the payment *in advance* you'll end up having to chase them down/get ghosted. So, realistically: you end up taking the $500, for *at least* 50 hours of work. On average, it clocked in closer to 65-70. $7.14 an hour. That's less than a third living wage and less than minimum wage. You cannot grow an art practice while actively starving. It's easier to make a design, sell it/license it/etc. to make more cash without losing your mind.

That said - After 2020, I reached a point in my career that when I take on custom work, it's typically from a larger brand with a larger scope and larger budget, ranging anywhere from $5k-$30k. That said - these businesses are typically ones that understand the industry and are far less of a headache to work with than individuals, and will give several months worth of work at a time at a living wage.

On the creative side, I enjoy making my own designs and work as opposed to other folks. I have a ton of drawings and projects I'd rather work on and share with folks of my own that are infinitely more fun than the 200th identical commission request (a biblically accurate angel that also is the grim reaper that is also Baldur's Gate 3 thirstraps/Dark Souls fan art/primarchs because Y'ALL AIN'T CREATIVE BUT MY ASTARION X SANGUINIUS SHIP CAME FIRST.) Also, most of the fun of my career is knowing as many folks as possible get to enjoy my art junk. I'd rather go through a few extra hoops and have thousands of folks see my stuff vs something only one other person gets to see.

If you made it this far, congrats, here is my favorite image I have saved in my camera roll:

[thebibliosphere]

I both believe "poor people deserve art" and "artists deserve food", but it's hard to reconcile those beliefs. I blame capitalism. And I suppose it mostly matters who you're stealing from?

I don't mean to question you at all, I'm against people pirating your stories. I guess I was just wondering if you had more thoughts regarding the reconciliation the two beliefs I quoted above.

I think the reconciliation is working toward a future where things are better, and authors and artists don't have to beg people not to steal from them because they think every author is Stephen King, who wouldn't notice if you stole the pennies found under his couch when in reality most of us are hunting for spare change down the back of the couch because we are earning below minimum wage.

We need people to embrace the idea that art belongs to the working class, both in terms of consumption but also creation.

If you don't support the working-class creators, you'll only end up with rich fucks with no scope of the world beyond their own narrow view of privilege.

Indie creators are actually working very hard to change the way the industry works, and the publishing industry is shitting itself over it. They don't like the success some of us are having. It's why they keep upping prices while slashing corners on their own production (while never affecting the man at the top) to try and stay competitive within the rat race they've created.

They're not interested in the proliferation of art. They're not interested in making sure their authors can afford to live. They don't want more diversity. They don't want inclusion. They want profit at whatever the cost.

And while indie creators very much need to get paid because we live in a capitalistic society and everything is burning down around us, and a carton of eggs now costs more than what I earn per hour, our creativity is directly at odds with the type of profiteering big publishers want.

The money should go to the writers. Not the CEOs. The money should go to the workers in the print houses. Not the CEOs. No one needs the kind of wealth these people have. It's obscene. We need direct action against these conglomerates. We need unionization. We need a means to fight back so that we can make art and make it accessible.

So, how do we do that? I don't know. I'm just a very tired, disabled creator doing my best to keep my head above water. But I think getting people to realize that art and books are worth saving up for would be a good start.

That putting money in the pockets of creators is just as important as your own enjoyment of their art. Because if there aren't any artists, you've got nothing.

Getting them involved with their local libraries would also be a great start. Educating them on how the industry works is part of that. The number of people telling me they had no idea libraries paid authors is staggering. And that's intentional. It's a by-product of right-wing propaganda to make you think libraries are worthless and just sap taxpayers' money.

They're not.

If they were, the fash wouldn't be trying so hard to take them away.

Basically, we need working-class solidarity and for certain people on the left to rid themselves of the idea that just because something isn't borne of manual labor, it doesn't have worth. We need the artists and the dreamers as much as we need to bricklayers and the craftsmen. Otherwise, what's the fucking point of it all?

[davidchiemcore]

started thinking about how much money each of the characters likely makes

(DRDT SPOILERS AHEAD - for character and story backgrounds)

basic information I'm going off of: drdtdev stated that everyone except Teruko and Min make their living from their talent. the hope's peak academy they attend is located in the US, and they're specifically part of the east class, so implying its somewhere on the eastern side of the us. While they don't have to live where the school is, there is a western branch of Hope's Peak, so the fact that they attend the eastern branch suggests that they're closer to that side. The series takes place sometime in the future, but given the world had a major tragedy and seems to be on the same level as the world we live in, I'm gonna assume inflation is roughly the same as now

teruko: She does mention having to choose between rent and food, meaning she makes some sort of money, and enough to rent a place at times. I assume she works some sort of minimum wage job, given she doesn't have full schooling experience. a lot of the eastern us has minimum wage at 7.25, but places in the northeast have it a bit higher, from 10-15. If she earned something like 13 dollars an hour, worked 40 hours a week, and worked every week, she would make around 27k. However, with her bad luck and lack of legal documents as mentioned when she talks about her schooling, I assume she probably loses jobs quite frequently. Assuming she's unemployed for about a fourth of the year, she would' earn roughly 20k

xander: This one confuses me a bit. He's basically an activist, so I'm not sure what kind of job he would have consistently. Additionally, he lived in the UK from at least age 14 until he started attending Hope's Peak, so I had to look for jobs there. Looking it up, it seems that the pay ranges from 23k-49k, averaging at 33k (all in pounds). Converting that, the average salary would be 43-44k. He's living with no family, and who were poor enough to likely not leave anything behind, so he probably has to work a lot to pay for his overseas school. However, he did do school at the same time, so I'll take 3/4s of the total salary to give him 33k a year.

charles: Given that being even an entry-level chemist requires at least a four year degree, I assume he may work as an assistant to one at the moment. They still make quite a bit of money, however, most making 37k-49k a year. The average is 49k, but there's a chunk of outliers around 82k, mostly from California, which is in the western US. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to suggest he makes something in the middle of the range I gave, giving him a salary of 43k. However, given that he was likely doing school at the same time and has parents to support him, who also seemed to shelter him a lot, he likely works part time. For part time, I'll cut the salary by half and say he probably earns 22k a year.

ace: Horse jockeys get paid per race, both for winning and participating, so this is a little harder to calculate. Most horse jockeys earn 53k-67k, but given that Ace is the Ultimate Jockey, this is a job where being skilled can really help you rise in the ranks, both of how much you can charge, and how often you win. It's also something that he could reasonably have a couple years of experience in given that they only need to be 16 years old to start professionally racing. Therefore, I would put him at the high end of the average or maybe even higher. I'll estimate 70k per year. Many horse jockeys drop out of school to focus on their job, so I'll leave him at that.

arei: This is also a little harder to calculate, because while you can bowl at any age, you can only join the Professional Bowlers Association once you turn 18. However, she could still compete for prizes in PBA Jr. and other smaller competitions. This year's PBA Jr. Competition gave 10k in scholarship money, but most competitions have at most a couple thousand dollars as the top reward, so I'll estimate she might make about 12k in a year? However, she lives with family still, so this is probably fine for her.

rose: rose is stated to have earned several millions doing forgery, so her previous salary would've been incredible. However, now she just does recreations of other paintings. None of the money goes to her, but if we still want to calculate it, the average reproduction artist earns 46k a year.

hu: I assume she likely does small venues where she plays the zither. According to a reddit post, the average earnings for a gig for a small musician is around $230, and assuming she does an average of one a week (some weeks she might do more, some weeks she might not do any), she'd earn about 12k a year.

eden: Eden is stated to both do clock making and clock repair. Most clock repairers make 36k-44k a year, averaging to 40k, and the average clock maker earns about 40k a year as well. She says that she can work 14 hours without breaks, implying she has some very long work days, possibly putting her slightly above the average at 42k.

levi: At first i thought Levi would make a lot because personal stylists sound like a rich people thing? But looking into it the average salary in the US ranges from 34k-50k a year, and since he states that he's relatively new to the field, he probably leans to the lower end of that. im gonna put him at 36k? He lives alone, so he likely works full time to pay for his living conditions.

arturo: Similar to Charles, he likely doesn't perform his actual job yet regularly. Half of all plastic surgeon assistants make somewhere between 22k-56k a year, with the halfway point at 37k. The median amount is around 44k. Given that he was likely working part-time, as he was probably in school at the same time, I'll cut that in half to give him a salary of 22k per year.

min: It's stated that her schooling up until this point was paid for by the spurling foundation, so i assume either the same is the case for her time in college, or her parents were able to save a lot of money to pay for it. Given this and how much time she puts into school, i assume she doesn't have a job.

david: This was a hard one to calculate. The average motivational speaker (I know he's called an inspirational speaker but in this case they're interchangeable) can make anything from 500 to 30k per speech, depending on their experience and skill. We know David is a well-known celebrity, being famous worldwide, but it's not to the degree that everyone in the class is shocked by his appearance, just Xander. If he work to make 10k a speech, and do one speech every two months, he'd be making 60k a year. In addition to this, many speakers have alternate sources of income, like book and channels. He's not stated to have these, but I'd assume he at least does smaller talks, maybe giving him another 10k a year?? As he's paid per speech, this doesn't require a lot of hours, so he probably is able to make full pay while also going to class. I'm not sure if this is a super accurate salary, but it's hard to get a gauge on it, so I'm going with 70k a year.

veronika: How does one make money as a horror fanatic? She mentions being a scholar in her field, so maybe she writes papers and small books on the subject. However, I'm a personal fan of the "deep dive youtuber" theory, so I'll calculate for both. For scientific papers, you can earn from a few hundred to a few thousand per paper. Given this kind of stuff takes at least a couple months of research, I'd say she would only make a few thousand a year. Maybe 10k if I'm being generous and giving her a 2k article every other month? Now, for the other idea, youtubers make about 2.5-7.5 dollars per thousand views on a video. If she gets an average of 800k views per video (with a couple million on some and a few hundred thousand on some), and makes 5 dollars per thousand, she'd be getting about 4k per video. Again, if she puts out a video every other month, this would be getting her 20k.

j: Special Effects artists make anywhere from 44k to 86k a year. The average is 68k, but most make either a bit more or a bit less, and given J's influence from her mother, I'd assume she's in the higher range. The highest category is 23% of people making 78k-86k, so I'll give her 80k. I'm not sure about whether she'd work fulltime or part time, because she definitely has the money to work part time because of her mother, but she might also try to make all her own money herself to spite her? I'm leaning that she works part time, so if I cut that in half she still makes 40k a year.

whit: The average professional matchmaker makes 42k-46k a year. The average is a clean 44k a year. Again, I'm not sure if he'd work part time or full time because we don't know much about his living situation. It's possible he needs to help support his single dad, so I'll put him at 3/4s of that, 33k.

nico: Most animal behavior specialists, which is what Nico says they are in their conversation with Xander, make 46k-53k a year, with an median of 48k. However, given they don't have a degree yet, I'll assume they make on the lower end of that, so 46k. They mention going to school, so they likely work part time, cutting that in half to give them a salary of 26k.

if anyone read this far thank you this took me like three hours HAHA

[astral-tracer]

I'm ill and not really good at words to begin with but. I think we should just hard reset the entire USA. Like burn the whole motherfucker down and start over. And here's what I would change personally

(readmore bc this is getting Lengthy)

- almost every state is its own individual country. It's too fuckin big and there's too many people for a central federal government to Work. I say almost because some of the really small states could clump together if they want idk I live in one of the bigger ones. In fact most physically large countries should probably do this

- likewise, the "union" of the state-countries should become like Europe where it regulates like. Travel and currency. And emergency wartime shit. Keep free travel open between the states like you can just cross most country borders in Europe

- if we MUST stay as a single country, COMPLETELY rework the voting system. Make it like Australia in particular that shit fucks severely. Honestly even if the states become their own countries we should do this.

- universal basic income. Like do I even need to explain this. Give everyone a basic livable wage that covers basic housing & food comfortably.

- shorter work hours. I'm not an expert but I think it's been proven that like a 5-hour 4-day work week would be just as productive or smth. Don't quote me on that one.

- ban private prisons. Like come on what the fuck.

- (ubi should cover prisoners too. Btw. And literally everyone else over 18. And ppl like 15-17 should start to get a smaller amount that goes into like a trust account that they can access when they're 18. just as a boost)

- COMPLETELY rework school funding oh my GOD what the fuck are we doing. Give grants to struggling schools and schools in poor areas. Abolish this "no child left behind" CRAP that incentivizes memorization over actual learning. MANDATE A HIGHER MINIMUM WAGE FOR TEACHERS.

- Actually tax the 1%. Also no one should be able to be a billionaire. Any income over like $10m (am open to constructive criticism on exact amount cap) should be taxed at 100%.

- universal healthcare. I will *allow* private hospitals to exist (for now) but EVERY state should have at least one easily accessible non-privatized hospital system where every individual hospital is a certain radius from each other so that p much everyone has access to it. The reason private hospitals COULD still exist is so that ppl could choose to pay a bit for expedited care if wanted. Open to constructive criticism on this one.

- decriminalize drugs. All of them. Rehab centers should be covered under universal healthcare too. People turn to drugs most often when nothing else is helping them - it's a systemic issue, not a personal failing.

- abolish student loans. Colleges should run on grants and donations. I shouldn't have to go into debt to learn, even if I just want to take a class or two a year. Also all textbooks should be available for free online, at least to students, or be available in bulk quantities in the library of any college that requires them for any course.

- decapitalize the Internet. It should be ILLEGAL for certain public websites (search engines, wikis, news, etc) to run ads. For websites like YouTube ads should be limited to like 5-10 seconds PER VIDEO.

- (also this isn't like a government level thing but they should totally bring back the branded game sites. Like the sites w barbie browser games n shit. That shit SLAPPED.)

- there should be both an increase in minimum wage and a cap on how expensive necessities can be. Things like bread, eggs, meats, locally growable produce, etc should be capped at a certain price point and not allowed to go above that point. This includes things like medications and menstrual products and also like condoms. "Luxury goods" (premade meals/snacks, coffee, alcohol, etc.) could be exempt from this. Open to constructive criticism on that.

- ban use of oil/gasoline wherever possible. Full stop. There's no fucking reason for it. Also power & water shouldn't be allowed to be privatized in any way and use of renewable energy like solar and wind should be mandatory. Also it should be free to everyone ever

- all companies and their products should be required to be under a certain carbon footprint/pollutant threshold. This includes limited or outright banned use of plastic products forever. We can find disposable alternatives that don't fuck us and the planet.

- nobody over like 60 should be able to run for office I'm fucking sorry but I'm sick to death of old ass motherfuckers running shit get outta here grampa no one likes ur policies

- medical euthanasia should be legal to perform but NOT legal to professionally recommend. Like a doctor can perform it but doctors and nurses cannot tell you that you should. It should also be regulated in some ways but I'm not about to get into that rn

- decriminalize sex work. Just. Full stop. People are gonna do it no matter what laws are in place, it's the oldest profession for a reason, decriminalize it and put in place laws protecting sex workers from abuse & exploitation.

- (obvs with above there should be SOME laws against specifically shit like performing sex work for/with a minor & other shit like that but that falls under "pedophilia is illegal" which like yeah good.)

- (on that topic though any CLEARLY DRAWN/NOT PHOTOGRAPHICAL porn REGARDLESS OF CONTENT should be fully allowed so long as it can e reasonably determined that no real life people were used as reference or could be recognized via the art. Like I'm Not Into even fictional children being in porn art but it isn't hurting anyone even if it's gross and I don't get it. Adults can to photo porn stuff as long as everyone's consenting tho)

- decensor the Internet. I don't care that there are children here. Sure you can have specific sites catered to children but they should not be allowed to have ads AT ALL (see "decapitalize the Internet") and anywhere not designated as specifically "for children" should be completely uncensored or have options to be completely uncensored. Make people parent their own fucking kids again.

- actual separation of church and state. If the only root argument in favor of a law or bill is "bUt ThE BiBlE" it should just be tossed full stop no exceptions. Also businesses and such should be incentivized to allow people of any religion their holy days off (unless no one is guaranteed to have their holy days off)

- On that note strengthen anti-discrimination laws. No one should ever be denied anything simply for their gender, presentation, religion, sexuality, race, etc.; this does not apply to any closed religious practices (where no one outside that particular religion is supposed to take part in a ceremony, style of dress, etc.) by any recognized nonprofit group.

- just give the native americans back their lands already. National parks should be allowed to be "maintained" (lived in) by indigenous people in whatever ways they want tbh. The only "rule" should be that visitors/tourists should still be allowed to enjoy the spaces so long as they are respectful of the land and the people. Humans are not inherently separate from nature.

- (if anything in the above point is worded badly I'm sorry once again I am The Sick and words are hard)

- work with Canada and Mexico on fully opening borders bc seriously what the fuck.

Idk I'm sure there's more I would change but I can't think of anything else right now tbh. But like to do any of those we'd have to completely uproot the entire system and I dont. Know how we would do that. without putting people through unnecessary risk. Idk I'm just fuckin weird rn

[kieraoonadiy]

School, Fashion design, and Fashion Production

Hello people of the internet! I'm going to share a bit of insight with what I've been learning at school this semester

These are illustrations and drawings I have drawn up, no AI was used. The colored drawing (right) was done using alcohol markers, Gelly Roller pens, and pencil crayons. The other was done using a photo and illustration program

The one on the right, shows the layers, the texture, color, if there's sparkle or gold metallic something to it, and the other (on the left) is the "technical drawing" to provide the manufacturing company. The "tech pack" or "technical package will add information with details on where the stitching will be, the design elements, and then coupled with a "Spec Sheet" with details of what kind of thread, what color matching the fabric has to be, fiber content, assembly, label printing instructions, and close up detail for any embroidery that needs to be done, and info for the pattern makers for fit As a point in reference in cost, in Canadian dollars, if I use all natural fiber for ONLY the bolero-cape part, after doing the math, the approximate retail price of just that one piece, is close to $1500 if I was to sell one on the market

So, you have to wonder, how are clothes designed and sold so cheap, coming from places like China, or sold on Amazon, Temu, Shien, etc In my tech pack, I gave the "labour" costs to make this, at 17$/hour. That is above minimum wage currently in Ontario (Canada)

All the fabric is natural fiber (wool, and cotton sateen). The only thing that's synthetic, is the embroidery, and maybe the interfacing for the cuffs. And as some of you may know, natural fiber gets expensive. Especially wool, which you have to go hunting fabrics for, which can run up to 40-50$ per meter (about 48$/yard for the Americans for conversion)

So, lets say this design gets stolen (which, because its the internet which is most likely to happen), they'll make it out of cheap synthetic fiber (probably polyester), glue or print everything on without top stitching (more chemicals), no embroidery so that'll be printed on (even more paint print chemicals), and likely give their workers maybe 1$/hr to make it, at 5 hours tops (forced labour, slave labour, child labour, or underpaying sewists) to make from start to finish. It will also likely be poorly fitted because of the use of AI that's going to pump out the design (environmental impact from data centers), it won't be fitted on a real human (more AI environmental impact) for photos before sending it off to be produced and posted online, turning this expensive design into a cheap knock-off that will likely be sold by the hundreds of thousands for cheap...maybe about 40$ max, for Halloween.

This will also be the sort of thing people only wear once, throw it out, and it winds up back on the shores of the country that made it (most likely somewhere like Bangladesh, which is home to the lowest paid garment workers in the world, last I heard on social media), causing more pollution, choking off wildlife, and causing locals of wherever they get dumped, to deal with the garbage in their own backyard. What I want to happen with my designs, and what will happen are likely two different things. But I just wanted to bring this information to light.

You may ask yourself "why are you taking this class then?". Well, I want to design clothes for myself, that will be closer to timeless or classic pieces, that are made of natural fiber, that will last as long as possible, with a better chance of biodegradability, wearability (clothes I will want to reach for frequently), mixing and matching, as well as durability during the lifetime of the garment.

I'm also getting older, my body is changing, and menopause is a rough thing to deal with, especially when a hot flash hits, and you need that breathability of natural fiber garments. Especially when it's close to the body to absorb and wick away sweat.

I very much doubt I'll go into production for any of my designs, as I have no overhead (broke college student stereotype), but I want to keep my environmental impact small where I can, that I know I can manage.

Just a little peek behind the curtain of fashion design And now, just a little hand woven project that I'm doing a video for, as a bit of a palate cleanser.

[mutantenfisch]

Am almost done with crocheting my rainbow blanket and for the lols did some math.

I can do 6 hexagons per hour if i don't let myself get distracted

Each colour has 7 hexes with white border and 12 full colour hexes

I have 8 colours in total

This means per colour i need a bit over 3 hours per colour. Untangling and cutting yarn as i go taken into consideration, i need about 3.5 hours per colour.

3.5 hours times 8 is 28 hours. Minimum wage per hour in Germany is currently at 12.41 €

Only for the pieces to be crocheted would mean I could charge 347.48 € for them and this does NOT take into consideration that i had to buy the yarn before starting and that there will still go several hours into blocking the pieces and sewing them together to form a blanket.

So i guess what I'm meaning to say is. If you want to purchase handcrocheted or otherwise handmade stuff you should really take into consideration what it is worth in means of hours of labour and a modicum of fair wage.

And the other way around too. I see it with artists all the time who are underselling their work, but artisans and crafters should not be ashamed or afraid to charge up in order to get a fair prize for selling.

[rhode-island-empire]

Summer Events in Rhode Island and Nearby States (Beyond WaterFire)

Sooo I need money to pay for college so instead of scamming people, I'll be setting up a bunch of little events this summer. My rates are relatively flexible, so don't worry too much aboudit, okay, hon?

Swimming Lessons - REQUIRED for all ICE people.

Whether you know how to swim or not, this course is REQUIRED by the government to help you do your job better. I've done competitive swim for 4 years, and some of our other FDA-certified instructors have done even more, so we know what we're talking about. You are also REQUIRED to provide food for the local wildlife. Have you no empathy? Do you NOT care about maintaining balance and harmony throughout Rhode Island's ecosystem? You wouldn't kick a puppy, would you? Then you will have no problem providing food for them.

Rates: Free.

Notes: This course requires signing a waiver. You are assuming personal risk, so if you get seriously injured and/or die, it's not my fault. Did I mention that this course is REQUIRED???

Location: Narragansett Bay. We do not offer swimming lessons in the Providence, Woonasquatucket, or Moshassuck rivers during WaterFire, as we do not want corpses to interfere with public enjoyment of this cultural touchstone. Currently working on establishing a location at Boston Harbor in Massachusetts.

Lemonade Making

Everyone knows that a nice cup of Del's tastes even better with crushed ICE. Go get em. I'm looking for the best ICE in the country, but most importantly I'd like as much as possible. Oh and then we're going to crush em.

Rates: You get paid 10 dollars for every ICE found. Who supplies this money? Well...

Billionaire Seminar

Well if they're so RICH, surely they'll be able to provide food of the highest quality to both people and animals. And they'll taste good. Once all their resources are depleted, we can add their combined trillions of dollars to the Federal Reserve! This way, we'll be able to pay people for finding quality ICE. Oh and pay off everyone's student loan debt. Hell, we can even increase the federal minimum wage! It's about time we made it $15 per hour.

Rates: Do you think you're gonna live long enough to pay off everything you owe the public? NOT A CHANCE.

Cybertruck Owners

For a small fee, your Cybertruck can enjoy going swimming too! According to my scientific research that has been published in Nature, Teslas enjoy swimming, especially considering that their semi-amphibious bodies are built for aquatic environments.

Granted, your Cybertruck may want to live in the bottom of the Bay permanently. Nothing against YOU. It's just them going back to their natural environment. You wouldn't like it if someone was holding you captive, would you? Show some empathy and let your Cybertruck be happy and free from your control! It's okay, you can always walk, bike, or take public transit!

Rates: 5 dollars per hour. If your Cybertruck prefers fire over water, this fee will be waived, as fire takes fewer resources.

Notes: We are currently rigorously and scientifically researching the properties of other Teslas to determine their provenance.

Location: Narragansett Bay, Boston Harbor, and hell we can even expand to Long Island Sound. Fire-based services are also available at Providence's three rivers, but only during full lighting days.

NOW HIRING!!!

STARTING AT $25 AN HOUR.

[rockanroller]

Insights Into "good" vs. "bad" Animation Rates & Why Animators Might Agree to Work for "low pay"

with the Discord screenshot going around from Spindlehorse Writer and Production Supervisor Adam Neylan revealing some rates they offer, i thought i'd give some insights into the complex topic of animation rates and animators as someone who has done animation work and had many a conversation with peers & mentors about what i should/shouldn't agree to when it comes to pay and productions.

to start with a general statement:

most of what i'm about to say can apply to any and all jobs. animation is not the only industry with low-paying jobs ppl still agree to work, and "currently, 30 states and Washington, D.C., have minimum wages above the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour." that means 20 states still only pay $7.25/hour for minimum wage which is not livable, of course jobs in those states may offer more.

i do not say that to downplay or forgive poor wages, only to show animation isn't an isolated case, but it doesn't make it any less awful. and the tricky thing with animation/art is there are more factors to consider than a simple yes or no answer.

and, for your consideration, these are the wages listed by the Animation Guild, they are shown mostly by hourly and weekly rates, and range from $35-$57 per hour, and mainly apply to big studios. you can see wages from specific Big Studios on this page. including Bento Box whose wage minimums ranged from $22-$42 per hour depending on the job as of July 7th, 2023.

any opinions expressed in this post are my own or summarized from others i've spoken with, they're subject to change in the future as i learn more. the goal of this post is to be informative.

"why would an animator agree to a job paying low wages?"

needing the money no matter how poorly it pays and/or having a hard time finding work in the current state of the industry

plain old artistic passion (((they love the work or the project so much they want to be a part of it even if it means low pay)))

they want/need to build their portfolio or resume

they've been recommended to do it by a friend or mentor

they know the crew/studio provide a good work environment despite their low pay

they feel they can get the job done fast enough for it to be worth the pay

they have something else supporting them financially (another job, their family/spouse/partner, etc.) so they can afford to work a side gig for pocket change or just for fun

being a friend of the creator OR anyone on the production, leading to a desire to help out even if it means they wont be paid much

they live in an area of the US or another country that has a lower cost of living (((i.e. if your rent is $3000/mo VS. if your rent is $1000/mo)))

they agreed with the job/rate the employer/client initially offered them, but the employer/client changes or adds onto the job once production starts (((sometimes this can be a situation known as "job creep" where you agree to do one job, but later they ask you to take on responsibilities or "small tasks" from other jobs while only paying you for the one job.)))

on that last bullet you may be thinking... "well they should just quit then, why wouldn't they?" here's some reasons why, some are the same as above:

needing the money/not being able to find another job so badly they find a way to do whatever is asked of them

same plain old artistic passion mentioned above (((they want to see it through/complete the task/complete the vision even if it means they might experience stress or burnout)))

they have something else supporting them financially so doing more/extra work isn't a huge hinderance

they have friends on the production they may not want to "abandon" or "let down" OR, alternatively, having friends on the production makes the work easier to stomach

despite the extra work/low pay the work environment is enjoyable for one reason or another (community, support, fun, etc.)

fearing it could ruin their reputation as a worker / burn bridges with their connections on the production / limit their ability to get another job with the same studio or other studios later on

fearing saying "no" might breach their contract or agreed terms

not being experienced or confident enough to stand up for themselves in the workplace/not knowing their rights (this isn't uncommon, many people do not know the extent of their rights as a worker.)

"what makes an animation wage good or bad?"

this gets a bit trickier bc it is a complex subject that can change based on the project and your personal skills/needs as a worker.

"paid per second"

the "per second" wage is one that's used bc it's very easy for the client to plan their budget with. but it's been debated back-and-forth among workers whether or not it's "fair," especially if the client isn't open to discussion or willing to pay extra for exceptions.

some workers, even though they will agree to work for it, feel this method shouldn't be used bc there are factors it doesn't take into account, while other workers are fine with it.

the limitations of the "per second wage" are:

not every animator works at the same speed

if you're paid $35/second and 1 second takes you an hour to animate then you made $35/hour, but if 1 second takes you 3 hours you made only $11.66/hour, and so on. one might argue an animator simply needs to "improve" in order to make the same "worth" as their peers who work faster--but everyone works differently, and if an animator who works slower is good enough/a more thorough worker, they can still be preferred over a faster one.

it doesn't take revisions/retakes into account*

*this limitation can be remedied if the employer/client includes revision/retake rates or amounts, or is open to discussing extra pay for excessive revisions/retakes. revisions/retakes occur when someone in the pipeline (the lead, the supervisor, etc.) discerns that something was missed or needs to be improved / fixed in an animation. generally one or two small revisions (missing a line, there's a small area that didn't get colored, etc.) are not a big deal and can be fixed quickly. but if there are a multitude of revisions (multiple missing lines/color) or huge revisions (having to re-do an animation completely) that can create a bigger workload for the worker or whichever co-worker their work gets passed to. and you might think "well the error was the worker's fault therefore they shouldn't be paid to fix it" but it's a part of the job. no animator is perfect, and unless you're senior veteran Disney level you're going to get a few notes back. (even the veterans aren't perfect and get notes as well.) not to mention leads might disagree on what is or isn't a necessary fix or adjustment to make on an animation.

it usually is a flat rate that doesn't take complexity into account*

*this limitation can be remedied if the employer/client includes higher rates for more complex shots or is open to discussing a higher per-second rate for more complex shots or additional pay if the job becomes more work than previously thought but, for example, if everyone is being paid a flat $35/second rate no matter what and you get a shot where all you have to animate is a character taking a sip from a glass, but your co-worker has to animate a shot of a character doing crazy parkour, one is going to take longer than the other while getting the same amount of pay. if you complete yours in 2 hours you made $17.50/hour, if your co-worker completes theirs in 5 hours they only made $7.00/hour for a more complex shot.

so overall the "per second issue" has limitations but they can mostly be remedied if a client is open to discussing extra pay/higher rates when the workload exceeds the original agreement.

hourly rates are generally a more "financially secure" option for workers.

however hourly rates can get more expensive and are harder to plan a budget for, since everyone works at different speeds, thus why many clients, especially for productions with limited budgets such as indie, go for the "per second" rate.

job scope

this is where things get difficult to judge bc they vary depending on the production as well as your needs/availability/skills as a worker.

for the sake of example lets compare something that came up in discussion over the screenshot linked at the top of this post: Monkey Wrench's rate VS. Spindlehorse's rate.

breaking down the workload

generally speaking, most shots are only a few seconds. they tend to average around 2-8 seconds, but can be as long as 10+ seconds.

the last rate offered for Monkey Wrench's 3rd episode was $20.38/second, at that rate you could make anywhere from $40.76-$163.04 or $208.30+ per shot of completed roughs or completed clean-up.

at Spindlehorse's rate they chose for Hazbin Hotel's finale episode with A24 & Bento Box of $35/second you could make anywhere from $70.00-$280 or $350 per shot of completed roughs or completed clean-up.

is SH's more than MW in this case? yes. however, there are other factors to consider:

what was the framerate? (12 fps VS. 24 fps, etc.) (((how many frames get displayed per second)))

what were they animated on? (1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, etc.) (((this means how often you make a new drawing, 3s = a new drawing every 3 frames, 1s = a drawing on every frame. at 24 fps that's 24 frames in a second, on 3s that would be 8 drawings on 1s that would be 24 drawings.)))

how detailed are the characters/show style?

how complex is the movement?

how long did you have to complete the animation? (((if you have 1 week to complete an animation you will need to work more hours each day to complete it VS. if you had 2-3 weeks to complete the same one you could work less hours each day, maybe even take one off if you're working efficiently enough.)))

were you asked to take on a bigger workload than you signed on for? and did they offer to pay you the same or more for it?

how many revisions are included in your rate? what's the pay for additional revisions that aren't included in the rate?

was the workplace environment good or bad?

in other words, speaking hypothetically, if you have to animate several frames of detailed characters doing complex movements and you're asked to do more work than you agreed to in a bad work environment, making that $70-$350+ per shot is gonna suck and might cause you stress or even physical/mental harm from burnout that could hinder your ability to continue working...

...to the point that even if you still had to animate several frames of detailed characters doing complex movements, you may prefer to work the job that pays $40.76-$208.30+ per shot if, at the very least, it's a better workplace environment. although you may still choose to do work for the higher-paying job if you really need the money.

we can't make a super clear call on if SH or MW's wages are fair with all of the above factors bc they're either difficult or impossible to know unless we have worked, or hear from people who did work, on the productions themselves. however we *do* know that Adam Neylan claimed the animation for HH's finale episode would be "less intensive" in the screenshot linked at the top of this post, and at least one person who agreed to the offer received shots that were on 1s which *is* more intensive. (link to one other instance of this claim.)

budget / studio size

this topic also gets complicated as an employer/client doesn't typically tell you the exact budget they're working with and where all the money is going.

though they do tend to inform their workers with something like "we're working with a small/limited budget" or "we have plenty of budget" and all you can do is trust that they're being honest. however, indie productions like Lackadaisy and Monkey Wrench have been transparent about where their budget goes. (Lackadaisy budget, Monkey Wrench budget.) So far to my knowledge Spindlehorse has not. (as of making this post on 1/8/2024)

now first and foremost: yes, everyone deserves fair pay regardless of how big or small a client/studio is or how large or limited their budget is.

that being said, sometimes workers are willing to grant exceptions to smaller clients with smaller budgets, especially if they're passionate about the project, they have faith in their employer/client, or are having a hard time finding work and really need the money even if it's not a lot.

the reason many people are upset with the SH screenshot is that, while SH says they offer $60/second normally on Helluva Boss (which while on the better end of per-second rates is still not ideal), they can only offer $35/second, despite the fact they are doing work for A24 / Bento Box, with Bento Box usually offering minimum wages of $22-$42 PER HOUR depending on the job (page 4).

whereas for a much smaller indie project like Monkey Wrench, workers might be more forgiving when most of the money comes straight out of Zeurel's own pocket, as well as the fact that Zeurel does a lot of the animation himself.

and while SH pays much more per second for their indie show compared to Monkey Wrench, SH may have much more money coming in from views & merch sales, they also have much more heavily detailed characters. (in other words an animator might be willing to agree to less pay per second if the characters aren't very detailed or aren't doing a lot of complex movement.) that doesn't mean it's "good" that MW can only afford to pay $20/second, but some workers may be more forgiving given the circumstances.

what if some people are saying they had a good time working on a project while others are saying they didn't?

in relation to everything i've already stated above, the personal experience one has working on a production is equally varied.

generally speaking there are few projects who come out with a fully satisfied crew. there will almost always be at least one worker who had a bad time.

when considering if someone's bad experience is a sign of a bigger issue on a production you have to use your best discretion and accept you may not be able to make a clear call for sure until more information comes out.

sometimes people are telling the full truth of their personal experience, and the workplace *is* bad. other times they're telling the full truth of their personal experience but the factors that caused their bad experience were specific to them/their life, and the place they worked *might* be good for a majority of people.

on the flip side...

use caution when you see the "well *I* had a good time" or "well they were nice to *me*" defense

while numbers can be good (such as if more people are saying good things than bad things) one still has to be wary of confirmation bias as well as why someone might not speak up about a bad experience.

for confirmation bias; someone simply declaring that they had a good time on a production/with a creator insinuating that therefore others couldn't have had a bad time is, simply put, naïve. not to mention disrespectful and ignorant.

example: a group of people can go to the same party where one has a bad time and the rest have a good time. that doesn't mean the party was undeniably good. the party was a different experience for all of them. the host can potentially do something different at the next party to make it better for the one who had a bad time, or that person may decide not go to those parties anymore. if multiple people had a good experience at the party, then sure it's more likely it was "good" by majority, and more people should go--however there could still be an unseen problem such as "the host frequently attempts to get unwilling people drunk," and only a small handful of people have experienced or witnessed it. that's a problem that needs to be fixed, but the majority of party-goers might object to this because they "can't believe it's true, I had such a good time, the host is so nice, & he's never done anything like that to me." yet something bad still happened to a small handful of people and it needs to stop happening.

so, why would someone not speak up if they *did* have a bad experience? here's a few reasons:

they want to move on to other things in their life

they want to avoid getting involved in drama or making a stir even if they had a bad time

they could be afraid speaking up will make it look like they are "taking a side" on something that will cause friction and/or rejection from their peers or friends they don't want to lose

they could be afraid it'll affect their reputation as a worker, or burn bridges with their connections

they could be afraid of the response they'll get from the public (such as being blamed, ignored, invalidated, harassed, etc.)

they signed an NDA and/or are afraid of breaching a contract

should someone accept a low-paying job just for the "good opportunity" alone?

that is completely up to an individual's choice and varies greatly.

personally, i don't believe you should ever *tell* someone to go for something beyond the shadow of a doubt *just* for the opportunity alone, not unless you've taken into consideration the facts of the opportunity *and* the facts of an individual's availability/skills/life situation as well.

sure, "work at Disney" sounds like it's a good opportunity that anyone should take no matter what.

but, if Disney's paying pennies for the opportunity, and an individual isn't ready, doesn't have support, doesn't feel confident about the job or their ability to commit to it, then it isn't a good opportunity for them. you could uproot your entire life for a "good opportunity" only to discover you weren't cut out for it or it didn't lead anywhere. at the end of the day jumping for an opportunity is always a gamble even if it's a gamble that is tilted in your favor.

of course, i also believe sometimes you have to take a risk, sometimes mistakes happen, and you can still learn a lot from "failed opportunities." if it doesn't work out it isn't the end of the world bc you learned more about yourself/the job in the process and you can still pick your life back up. i just don't believe in making uninformed gambles just for the sake of a vague "opportunity," i believe you should consider all the available information before taking a leap.

whether or not something is a "good opportunity" depends on if it's worth it to you and/or you feel confident enough in your availability and skills to do the job even if it isn't going to pay much.

closing remarks

i think that's about all i can say on it, i know it was a lot of information (it's hard to simplify) so thank you truly if you read it all and i hope it was helpful and informative.

the topic of fair pay in animation is an on-going conversation with a lot of opinions and a lot of factors to consider, especially with the rise of interest in indie animation. everyone, including myself, should stay open to this conversation and avoid drawing hard lines in the sand of what is or isn't "fair" unless there is an obvious problem.

personally, due to the claims we've seen over time, i do feel there may be a problem at SH that needs to be reviewed in order for them to be a healthier and ultimately more productive/efficient studio.

i also think it'd be great if indie productions in general could pay more, but the reality is it just isn't there yet, and some animators are willing to deal with it for the sake of their passion or bc they really need the work no matter what.

if you have any questions or confusion about anything i talked about in this post, feel free to shoot me an ask.

ty again for reading.

[morroodle]

Ok so in reference to this I've actually had quite a few people tell me to charge more for one of these but I'm not sure how much so I'm making a poll about it. Please read everything before voting!

Took about 4 hours 45 minutes to make

Measures around 22 inches (55 cm), the same size as the mini blahaj ikea sells

Completely hand sewn (machines scare me) and dare i say good quality, probably wont tear a hole easily

The original price I was thinking of is $45. I multiplied the time it took to make by federal minimum wage ($7.25 per hour) and then added a rough estimate of $10 for materials (I don't know how to calculate material price I just guessed) but multiple people across multiple forms of communication have told me to charge more.

Important:

I'm not planning on selling these online, at least not yet. I just have several people I know in real life who have already offered to buy one so I want to know how much to charge. I might start selling online eventually but for now I'm staying local, sorry!

[freetheshit-outofyou]

Working under the table is underrated. I'm not talking about fuck stick farmers and ranchers taking advantage of illegal migrant workers to pay them shit while still charging the full price to the wholesale market, in turn making a larger profit margin. No, I'm talking about people, young adults or teens, trying to enter the job market for the first time. My first jobs from 15 to 17 were all under the table pay. I started spotting nails and trash around housing construction sites, moved my way up to moving drywall sheets, to carrying the mud buckets for the mud tap bazooka, to running the mud bazooka. Then I moved to chucking roofing shingles and tar paper to laying roofs. The last of it was hanging and laying cabinets. All of it under the table. I got paid out at the end of every day, depending on the day, what I was doing and how long I was there and of course how much effort I put into my work it could be 50.00 to 400.00 in a day. There was no obligation to come back either. At 16 that's one hell of a chuck of coin in your pocket. In 1986 (I was 16) the minimum wage was $3.35 an hour, if you could find a "per hour" job. Most places it was pay+tips and that meant you were getting paid wound $2.50 and hour. On a $50 day I was making in 8 or 10 hour shift whey my buddies were making in 2 days or an entire pay week. Working under the table and being paid based on the work I did and effort I out forth also gave me a hardcore work ethic. Older dudes on the sites would say "Kid slow down, you're making us look bad." and laugh. I never lost that "All in" work ethic. Over this Summer my 15 year old picked up an under the table job, times have changed of course, so he gets paid 10.00 an hour, plus tips, That's 1.25 under the states minimum wage but 2.75 over the federal minimum. He's making between 75.00 and 120.00 a shift. That boy is every bit his old man and puts forth 100% effort, last week after 2 months of work his boss bumped him up in position, no bump in pay just yet. I guess the point I'm trying to make is under the table work is a damned good place for young folks to test the waters in many areas of work, most of them skilled labor areas. But starting at the bottom of the totem pole and working your way up through the skilled labor tree the old fashioned way, by hands on learning and ground up experience.

[anaimlesswanderer]

Don't know where to even start, the past few days have been emotionally weird as hell.

Was very close to buying something I shouldn't, already dressed and everything, but then I stopped and thought to myself "this ain't the life I want to live, fuck all of this".

Kind of realised that I'm genuinely depressed, not sad but clinically depressed, and it's not only just because I lost pretty much everything but because my life has no meaning anymore.

I get up, do random shit, eat, sleep. Every day. If I don't go out I see no one, haven't said a single word to anyone in days.

And this isn't about social contacts, my life is just completely empty, with no direction, nothing really to do, no one to see and talk with.

My somatic symptoms have gotten really bad, I could feel myself losing the last bit of connection I had with my body, twitching around and hurting, not even feeling thirst anymore, eating random stuff, nothing tasted good, nothing was enjoyable, and I honestly stopped caring.

Didn't help that finding a new place in my city is impossible, I'm not a bad candidate, no debt, always paid rent, safe income through disability benefits. But every time I see a listing and contact a landlord, I instantly get an automated mail telling me that they have so many applications that it's unlikely I will even hear from them, they basically just take the first one who isn't in debt.

I can't continue to live like this, and I don't want to.

Started to get active again, 20 minutes of stretching and gentle muscle training, my muscles are so coiled that even stretching hurts. Realised I probably have some serious deficiencies, order calcium, magnesium, and other good stuff.

It's only the third day but dissociative symptoms have gone down massively just through moving my body, I feel spots I haven't in years and the constant twitching has stopped.

Slowly getting into proper cooking again and watching what I eat, tomorrow is gonna be a busy day and I'll drop into a sports store on my way home, get some grippers and light weights.

I'm planing on getting my health stuff all checked and fixed this year, dentist, cardiologist, blood work, build up my body again and next year, I'm gonna make a massive leap of faith and try to work part time.

Never worked before, I have nothing to show and limitations, both physical and mental, I don't have any options if I'm being honest, apart from one, which happens to match my character well enough as well.

Security, mainly property/object. Already figured out everything I need to have an advantage over other candidates, qualifications like first aid and fire prevention, two C2 certificates for my native and second language.

Gonna be expensive but I might be able to get some of it financed via integration assistance, only thing that could make it much harder is that I don't have a driving license. There are super rare cases that get that financed too, but I'm pretty sure I count as a lost cause for them and they likely won't put that much money into someone they'll expect to crash and burn.

But I'll see, that's all months away.

I could get a firearms license and go into armed security, but I'd rather wait with that until I'm sure it's really a job I can handle despite my problems, the license is super expensive and no one is gonna finance that.

I do have a massive pro, I'm totally fine working every weekend and holidays, long-term, because I'm alone anyway and no one's going to care if I work on these dates.

Already checked the job market and it's overflowing with open positions, they take basically everyone who is willing and has a clean slate, which I have, and pay goes up from the start based on additional qualifications.

I can easily make 15 bucks per hour right away, that's really good and above minimum-wage, weekends/holidays/graveyard shift pays extra on top and the base can go up to 21 if I do my job right long enough.

Yeha, I'm risking a lot with this, but I know I'll always regret it if I don't even try and continue to live in this never-ending stupor that's worsening my mental state and sucks the life out of me.

[downfallofi]

I'm trying not to dwell in disappointment that the job recruiter that has really been trying to get me to reply to a job opening for a company that pays super well turned out as kind of sucky because that way lies me beating myself up about it and getting depressed but it is kind of hard to just shrug and say "whatcanyado man, fuggin job market is Abysmal rn :)" and go on about your day without falling into a bit of despair like. It feels like I'm always going to be trapped, like I just have passed some event horizon where I'd ever escape being the family fuck-up, and now all I get is slightly disapproving looks at the dinner table when I talk about how my day went. Meanwhile friends are closing on new SUV's, moving in with their partner, moving into the place of their dreams. There isn't a world where I can afford any of that, I can't afford a fucking place to live. :) And the job post I thought was too good to be true (28 friggin dollars an hour. Twenty-eight dollars, above Seattle minimum wage, yet!) and had a recruiter blowing up my phone hot to talk to me multiple times per day? Yeah, it's a six month contract, for an employment firm, and the shift they're offering for this post is third shift only starting at 11 pm, so please sign up onto our website right now so we can get you started. Like ugh man.

[kite117]

Obviously bringing in foreign investments to build production infrastructure in the US is something that will take actual years before the wheels really start turning, but assuming it all goes to plan, do you think the new employment opportunities would come with fair wages? Or would they just pay whatever the state minimum wage is...

You could argue that "Well if the new Hyundai factory only paid $12.48 per hour, nobody would seek employment there" but if the local populaces surrounding that factory are relatively job-starved, people would probably sign on for it at those reduced wages. I mean why would people work for Amazon in many areas knowing full well about their horror stories, because there aren't that many other options.

Would that result in an overall restructuring of the costs of living per state, since every employed person won't earn enough at those minimum wages to afford to live in the state, or would it result in an acceleration of necessitating multiple jobs per individual, therefore overworking beyond 40 hours a week, in order to afford the costs?

And none of this even considers the changes to the prices of goods that will result from these companies having to pay the costs of moving their industries overseas to American soil and paying what will, most likely, be higher wages on average than what they currently pay in foreign states.

I'm just trying to work out the logistics of how this'll work about 4 years from now.

[theredqueenandthebloodwyrm]

Florida Legislation That Allows for Paying Workers Below Minimum Wage

(From Tallahassee Democrat.)

Those who work in apprenticeship, internship or work-study programs could be paid less than minimum wage under legislation that cleared a Senate panel Monday.

Oh we're off to a great start, folks! (I'm being sarcastic, this sucks).

The bill (SB 676) would allow employees to check a box when applying for the job allowing them to be paid less than Florida’s current $13 per hour. An amendment to the bill added in the Senate Commerce and Tourism Committee will require the parent or guardian of a worker under age 18 to approve the sub-minimum wage pay.

Oh I'm sure there's not going to be any coercion into ticking that box or exploitation of workers.

“I’m going to vote for it today … only because I know if I don’t this bill will die,” said Gruters, a former chairman of the Republican Party of Florida and a staunch ally of President Donald Trump.

You should have let it die, Gruters.