#And I still don't understand how I can believe that Ursa loves Azula.

[the-genius-az]

Do you think Ursa really loved Azula?

Yes, I think Ursa loved Azula.

But it's actually complicated, because of all the shit and Ozai, blah, blah, blah.

I firmly believe that parents are not prepared for a prodigy or different child, no matter how much they informed or prepared.

Azula is a different girl from the others, she is a genius prodigy (Maybe neurodivergent or just her upbringing makes her different??) and Ursa really isn't ready for something like that.

Maybe that's why he was negligent or just didn't care that much about raising her, maybe he thought Azula could handle it on her own because of how independent she is?

And maybe Azula thought Ursa didn't love her and never cared, because of all of her mother's actions towards her.

Azula simply noticed all those signs and took refuge in a monster, thinking maybe she could get some love and attention. And of course, she was horribly wrong in choosing Ozai, but can we judge her? No.

[ilikepjo24]

We all know that Ursa couldn't solve all of Azula's problems if she tried...

...But she could solve some of them.

People love to say that Ursa was a victim of Ozai (which is true) and the fact that she has a bad relationship with Azula is exclusively Ozai's fault (which isn't). Ursa also shares blame. You can't act like she holds no responsibility when she's the one Azula keeps hallucinating. She's the reason behind Azula's abandonment issues.

"bUT iT WAs oZai tHAt foRceD hEr to leAvE, sO IT wAs hIS fAuLt 🤡"

Ozai did force Ursa to leave, but did he also force her not to say goodbye to her daughter? Did any of you ever heard Ozai say "You can wake up Zuko if you want, cause adding abandonment issues on top of all his other flaws would make him even more unbearable, but don't you dare disturb Azula, she needs her beauty sleep."? I don't remember that scene ever happening, in the show or in the comics.

"BuT azULa coUlD hAve snItcHeD oN heR 🤡"

Blaming the child I see, but you're forgetting sn important detail. Snitch on her to who?

Ozai? He already knew she was leaving.

Azulon? He was dead.

To some guard? The guards would just report to Ozai, who would do nothing because he wanted her to leave.

Iroh? In what universe would Azula willingly go to Iroh if she had a problem? Was Iroh even there at the moment or was he still in the spirit world? We don't know, we never saw him!

There was absolutely no reason whatsoever why Ursa couldn't wake Azula up. No reason whatsoever. Plus, Azula is baby, if Ursa were to wake her up in the middle of the night, Azula would tell nobody (at least not immediately) because she would just fall asleep again, just like Zuko did, because she's nine!

Do you even know what kind of natural disasters nine year olds can sleep through? You can't possibly believe that, Azula, a nine year old, would leave her comfortable, warm bed, in the middle of the night, to go find her scary dad, or scary grandfather, or walk around until she found a guard (where were the guards btw? How come nobody saw Ursa? It's possible that there wasn't even any guards patrolling in the inside of the palace) to tell them that her mom came to hug her in the middle of the night, when, realistically, her mind was still fuzzy from sleep and she didn't even know that the hug meant goodbye, since Ursa had no reason to give away that detail, since she didn't tell Zuko either.

But let's pretend that you're right, and Ursa couldn't wake Azula up for some reason. That still doesn't change the fact that Ursa could still do other stuff to be close to her daughter. Ask her to do an activity together or something.

"bUt ThE tuRtlEdUCKs...- 🤡"

Stfu about the turtleducks. Feeding the turtleducks is an activity Zuko likes, that Azula has no interest in. Just like with the walks in the ganders. That's not how responsible parenting is done. This is "I will send some quality time with one child and drag the other one along to not look bad, but during the quality time the second kid can buzz off, I won't even be paying attention to them." This is exactly what is happening in this picture:

And don't go all "What chance would she have? Azula would push her away!" Because that just indicates that you don't understand shit about Azula's character. She wants her parents to be proud of her. She wants her power to be recognized. That's canonically what she craves the most:

So no, if Ursa gave Azula a chance to feel like she's making her mother proud, Azula would rather die than waste it. And under what circumstances could Ursa give Azula a chance like that without being interrupted you may ask? Well that's very simple. During Azula's training.

In this panel Azula is speaking directly to Ozai about how her training went. Which means he wasn't there to see it. He wasn't the one training her. He wasn't observing her training. And he wouldn't be there to stop Ursa from observing Azula's training once in a blue moon. He wouldn't be there to stop Ursa from telling Azula that she has improved so much and she's proud of her. He wouldn't be there to stop Ursa from showing Azula how much she loves her. He wouldn't be there to stop Azula from growing up knowing that her mother does care.

And who knows? Maybe the presence of a parent that doesn't believe in burning people's pants when you're displeased with them would prevent Azula from misbehaving on those occasions.

So Ozai couldn't prevent Ursa from doing that. Azula wouldn't want to prevent Ursa from doing that. So what stopped Ursa from doing it? Nothing. Nothing at all. She could easily do it and chose not to. Because Ursa isn't as good of a mom as some of you like to pretend she is.

Ursa couldn't solve all of Azula's problems, but she could save Azula from a lifetime of thinking her mom didn't love her and she selected not to do it because Ursa is not a great person.

Thus proven.

[hello-nichya-here]

Azula's mommy issues how it does (and doesn't) affect her personality and theoretical redemption

Ah, Ursa and how she ties into a possible Azula redemption. I recommend you get a snack and some water, because this answer is gonna be a long one XD

Before we even get to the dynamic between these two characters and how it informed Azula's actions, let's remember THE main thing that is responsible for Azula being the way she is: Indoctrination.

Her nation had been waging war against the rest of the world for 100 hundred years. Azula is 14. For 86 years her family had been telling everyone, including themselves, that the war was just, it was for the good of the world and of the Fire Nation, it was "sharing their glory", it was just them taking over land that was rightfully theirs because of "divine right to rule" (something Azula herself says to Lu Fang when she's taking over Ba Sing Se).

We see children cheering for a puppet version of Fire Lord Ozai in a festival, as he defeats an "evil" Earth Kingdom general. We are explicitly shown that Fire Nation schools lie about things like the Air Nomads, a pacifist culture, having an ARMY that Sozin's men attacked, framing it more as a mutual conflict between equals in which the Fire Nation won, instead of a sudden attack against an entire group of people that were just minding their business.

We see IROH write a letter about how he hopes his family can see Ba Sing Se IF THEY DON'T HAVE TO BURN IT TO THE GROUND to conquer it - and not only do Zuko and Azula both laugh, URSA is also laughing.

Azula was raised to believe her nation had every right to do all the attrocities it commited. And just like Zuko, she is still a teenager, not an adult like her dad, uncle or mom - and while they had less excuse than the Fire Siblings for not knowing any better since they were already grown, they do still have more excuse than Azulon and especially Sozin, since they were ALSO raised to believe that stuff was perfectly normal.

Even if Ursa had been a perfect mom, Azula would likely still be a villain, though maybe less bitter and insecure over feeling unworthy of love (but that would not disappear completely, since Ozai was still an abusive dad that very clearly expected perfection from his children at all times, which is way too much pressure to put on anyone, let alone on two kids. And since she was his favorite, she'd obviously try to copy him, so she wouldn't end up like Zuko, so her more cruel, ruthless side would also be very present).

HOWEVER, that does not change the fact that Ursa's flawed parenting had a deep impact on her daughter.

For starters, even the creators/showrunners and writers of the show have said Zuko is her favorite child - and a parent playing favorites is NEVER good, even if they don't downright abuse the one they don't like as much. And for a kid that is in an abusive home, seeing her brother be treated as completely worthless because he is not the favorite, it isn't that hard to understand how Azula concluded that, if her mom didn't like her as much as she liked Zuko, it's because she didn't like her AT ALL. Add in Ursa's concern over Ozai's influence over Azula and how it's shaping her personality, plus the fact that she said "What's wrong with that child?" WITH AZULA IN THE ROOM, and we have the source of her belief her mom didn't just dislike her, but also saw her as monster.

Because yeah, let's not forget Azula had TWO parents. Two parents that clearly wanted very different things from their children. Ursa was cool with all the imperialism stuff, but she was horrified at the thought of the family being at war with itself, fighting for the crown. She was a bad guy, but she had standards. Meanwhile Ozai was clearly on team "stab everyone in the back to get what you want, then rule by fear." Once her mom was out of the picture, Azula naturally felt like her dad had essentially proven his method was better, since he ended up getting everything he wanted (though Azula does question that in the finale, when she imagines Ursa of all people trying to make her see trying to use fear to force people into supporting/loving her would only further isolate her, showing some part of her DID internalize a point of view that did not align with Ozai's).

But even before Ursa was forced to disappear from her daughter's life, she was already failing to connect with her, but not solely because of Ozai. Think about it. We see lots of scenes of Ursa spending time just with Zuko, and some of her with both of her kids - but never do we get even a single scene just between her and Azula.

When Zuko immitates Azula's bad behavior (because he thought it was cool and funny) and throws bread (not a rock like the fandom insists, BREAD) at the turtleducks, Ursa is visibly shocked and distressed, but she EXPLAINS to Zuko why what he did was wrong (it hurt the baby turtleduck, and thus made the mother mad) in a VERY light-hearted way that he clearly remembers fondly. When Azula says things about Azulon being likely to die soon or Iroh being pathetic, Ursa is shocked and distressed - and either just says "Azula, we don't speak like that" or a very angry "Young lady, not another word" but without ever trying to explain to her why what she did was wrong.

Meanwhile, ZUKO actually says things like "How would you like it if Lu Ten wanted dad to die?" or explaining that Iroh gave up on conquering Ba Sing Se out of grief for his only child. Those two scenes were the CLOSEST Azula got to having someone actually try to explain things to her in a way she could understand - but obviously she's not gonna take her brother as seriously as she would an adult, and Zuko has his own stuff to deal with so he can't step up and be a replacement parent to her like Iroh was to him (and considering how young he was at the time, expecting him to do so would be unreasonable - hell, he likely didn't even notice just how badly Azula needed help until she had her breakdown).

Things get worse if we take the comics as canon (which I don't, but I know a lot of people do). On that version of the story, Ursa goes from "Making effort, but screwed up along the way" to "Neglectful/abusive piece of shit that should have her kids taken away."

Comics!Ursa's idea fo "quality time with her kids" involves talking solely to Zuko and ignoring Azula, instead of interacting with both of them. She doesn't encourage them to spend time with each other like she did in the show. When she is banished, she visits both her kids - but only wakes Zuko up. He gets a sweet farewell so he always gets to remember that, no matter what happened, his mom loved him and did not want to leave him. Azula doesn't get a single word, and is left to believe her mom didn't even bother with her.

Worse of all, Ursa CHOOSES TO FORGET HER OWN KIDS. After she had explicitly said she does not believe they are truly safe living with Ozai. After she explicitly said to Zuko "Never forget who you are." Not to mention, she writes a letter with the fake claim that Zuko is actually NOT Ozai's kid - because she knows he will read it and get mad. She risked putting her son in danger just to piss off her husband. That's what she did to the kid she LIKED. How low would she go if the kid in danger was the kid she didn't care for? Oh, wait the comics answer that too. She never bothered asking ANYTHING about what had happened to her all those years (nor to the kid with a scar on his face, mind you), showed more empathy towards her when she COULDN'T remember who she was (and even then it was just a "If I really am your mom, I'm sorry I didn't love you enough." That's it. That's all Azula gets), and she doesn't do ANYTHING about Azula running away. No asking Zuko or someone else to find her, no crying about losing her again, no indication that she is worried about her safety even though she is all alone and mentally unstable.

The comics really did Azula dirty, and I HATE Ursa in it. It reached the point of "I don't want these two to make up, I want Azula to give a whole speech about how much her mom sucks, just like Zuko did with Ozai" because that's what she deserves. Show!Ursa made mistakes, Comics!Ursa IS a mistake. The sympathy for Azula despite her bad actions grows significantly on that version of the story, because how the fuck can we speak her to not be so mad at the world after all that?

But at last, we need to make an important distinction clear here: It doesn't matter if we are talking about the comics or the show, if we like or dislike Azula, if we do or don't want her to be redeemed, the simple fact still is that she WAS screwed over her entire life, her troubled relationship with her mom had a deep and longlasting impact on her mental health, and there was no way in hell she would have EVER been an innocent little angel that is 100% against everything her evil father does. It's just impossible considering her backstory.

And there is a very clear double-standard in how people talk about the idea of a redeemed Azula VS the reality of a redeemed Zuko. Both start with the premise of "This bad guy has understandable, sympathetic reasons to do bad things, since they were indoctrinated from birth and had a terrible family life", both include the character having to see how their actions are hurting them AND others (including those they care about, Zuko's "victim" being Iroh, while Azula's are Mai and Ty Lee. Plus, they've both hurt each other in some ways, some more deliberate than others), and both culminate with the character turning their life around, confronting those who wronged them, and finding a support system for themselves.

Yet one is treated as revolutionary despite not being the first redemption arc ever (nor the only redemption arc in the story itself), nor being perfectly written (because perfect writting doesn't exist), while the other is labelled as lazy, out of character, or "making excuses" for bad people just because they had a tough life (like Azula is an actual person). There is no thematic or moral difference between redeeming Zuko and redeeming Azula, especially in a show that says "EVERYONE has the potential for great good and great evil" and ends with Zuko telling his abuser he hopes he'll also have a change of heart someday, even if he is not sticking around to witness or actively try to make it happen.

Redeeming Azula is no different than redeeming Zuko. It's perfectly fine to want to just one of these things instead of both, but it is NOT a superior choice in anyway, and it's very hypocritical of the same fandom that criticizes the idea of a redeemed Azula because "mommy issues isn't a good enough reson" when they can't stop praising the redemption arc that has "the villain had daddy issues" as it's core premisse. Personal preference is one thing. Being a dick about it is another.

[sokkastyles]

I don't know, it seems like Azula just wants Ursa to be proud of her coronation and achievements during the war, as "Azula in the spirit temple" also shows:

Ursa says mostly positive things to Azula, that she's proud of her and that she loves her, but it is Azula who debunks Ursa's line about not wanting to miss her coronation, because she doesn't believe her mother.

I just don't really understand why the line "I love you, Azula, I do" should necessarily be what Azula knows, because of that one line about Mai and Ty Lee?

Azula believes this line because Ursa scolded Azula in her childhood and we see that she, in fact, had succeeded in teaching Azula some morality, but because Ursa and Azula also parted on bad terms and Ursa didn't say goodbye to Azula, it's hard for Azula to believe when Ursa says some positive things to her, like when she says she's proud of her and that she loves her, meaning the only things that are the truth to Azula is criticism.

You're saying not everything the hallucination says is what Azula wants to hear, but why it necessarily should be everything she knows?

Maybe it can be both? Maybe there are some things she knows and some things that she wants to hear?

I never said it had to be one or the other. You did, when you came into my inbox framing your question as a dichotomy. Of course Azula wants her mother to tell her that she loves her, but she also can't admit that to herself, because that means she has to acknowledge that she was forced to choose between her father and her mother in her childhood and that the choices she made hurt other people. She has to acknowledge that love is stronger than fear, and that also means she has to acknowledge her own weaknesses.

You also have to acknowledge the difference in tone in the scene in Sozin's Comet vs the dream Azula has about her family praising her in Azula in the Spirit Temple. In the latter scene, what clues the reader in to the fact that it's not real is how bright and cheerful everything seems, and how that clashes with the reality. We know this is Azula lying to herself and imagining only what she wants to hear, because in reality, her mother and uncle and brother would not be praising her for continuing the war. She imagines everyone smiling and happy, and her brother without a scar, but the scene is perverse, because the reality is that Azula did horrible things, her father did horrible things, and her brother was scarred because he stood up for greater good.

In Sozin's Comet, Azula is immediately suspicious of Ursa because of her own self doubt. The entire scene is about her own inner conflict, the tone is dark and foreboding, and Ursa appears sad even while she appears to be praising Azula, which is meant to show Azula's awareness that she has brought about her own downfall.

Azula wants her mother to tell her she loves her, but she also can't admit this because she believes love is a weakness. When her mother criticizes her for using fear to control people, Azula says fear is the only way, and tries to prove it by saying "even you fear me." When Ursa refutes this, and tells Azula that she loves her, it contradicts everything Azula has wanted to believe about herself. Azula wants to believe she is in control. If Azula admits that she wants and needs her mother's love, and that her mother also loved her, she is not in control. Because her mother is gone, and this is not something she could control. Denying that her mother loved her is a way for Azula to control the situation and a way for her to prove that power is better than love. But Azula knows, deep down, that this is not true, which is why she destroys the image of her mother and weeps at the same time. The scene is meant to tell us that Azula has gotten the power she wants, but she's still not happy, because this has come at the cost of her relationships.

[asocial-inkblot]

Just wanted to share about what one of my brothers was saying the day before.

Gonna have to paraphrase here:

So I found out recently that my brother is an "Azula wasn't sympathetic" fan; and that was his exact argument, whereas I, of course, argued the opposite. The problem was that I'm so used to and sick of hearing that same old tired argument(s) that I at times struggled to explain my viewpoint in a respectable way and ended up insulting him (first?). He insulted me too but that doesn't matter, I guess (also that's beside the point).

I realized after that we both made good points and told him as much, but I don't think I was able to convey to him what I was trying to get at. I now think the reason why he just couldn't understand where I was coming from originally (and still technically am) is that we truly were basing our arguments on two different worldviews and I believe it may be the same with other anti-Azulas (for lack of a better phrase).

His argument hinged on the idea that how you act is all you deserve to be seen as. That what someone does or how they present themself to the world, dictates how much sympathy he/she/they deserve.

Mine however, came from a place of understanding and the belief that who you can be and who you were kept from being, matter more than who you currently are, as it pertains to the deserving of sympathy.

He also argued that the general consensus of the fandom is proof enough, but we Azula fans know that the general population doesn't just get to decide how everyone views someone or something. Outliers matter too, especially large outliers like the Azula fandom (that appears to grow more and more everyday ✨⭐️).

Although I eventually agreed, for example, with his assertion that Ozai preferred Azula over Zuko because she was more "ruthless" (or less compassionate when they were young children, as I saw it). I still believe that my original point that he actually preferred her because she was the superior bender, was true as well. I argued that he used her for that reason. My brother however, I guess didn't pay attention to the word "used". Being used by a parent is damaging to a child's psyche and teaches them from a young age that they exist to satisfy others, and be tools for others' glory.

Perhaps more importantly—beyond the fact that I pointed out she was only 14, was indoctrinated almost from birth and that Ursa was NOT afraid of her but actually scolded her (due to thinking Azula was inappropriate and perhaps un-ladylike, not "evil")—I also had in mind that Ozai's favoring her was a point against her childhood, not for it. There are still people in the world that think Ozai's preference for Azula was something to envy when that couldn't be further from the truth. The fact that Ursa favored Zuko and Ozai favored Azula is one of the, if not the biggest examples of and reasons for why Azula deserved sympathy.

Children need love, appreciation, encouragement and safety. Not favoritism, egocentric-interest, manipulation and fear.

(There were other things said while my other brother watched that I angrily disagreed with and that I myself may have been wrong to say/came across as overemotional because of, but I'll stop here. At least, for now.)

Edit: Small rephrasing.

[atla-confessions]

The people saying Azula couldn't have known if her mom disliked or feared her or viewed her as a monster because she was 8 are... very odd. Children of 8 years old or younger are capable of picking up on how they're seen and treated, especially by one of their parental figures. Just from a psychology perspective, a kid can often pick up on it pretty readily, especially an 8-year-old. That is not young enough to claim that she cannot be aware of something like that, that'd be more like 8 months. 8 years old is plenty old enough to notice if a parent can only say "I love you" to the child that isn't you and an 8-year-old can read into a "...You are your father's daughter" the way they can read into it if you call them "special" with a certain tone. They don't have the same logic as adults do but children can definitely feel hated or unloved or feared in most cases and they pick up on more than you'd think, but if you interact with 8-year0olds they don't even come off as too young to understand how people feel about them in the first place? The 1-year-olds I've taken care of can pick up on or think they perceive what either is or seems to them to be a lack of love, and they're not always just imagining those things. Looking at the interactions kid Azula had with Ursa in the comics, yeah that is a distance that a child of 8 is capable of reading into and recognizing. And looking at the psychological damage Azula has from the thoughts of her mother in the series before the comics dropped, yeah she was definitely objectively cognizant enough to be deeply traumatized by whatever she felt from her relationship with Ursa.

Okay, I meant she can't know if she is 8 and neglected (i.e. her mom doesn't spend time with her). She can easily tell her mother loves her less but if the mother is neglecting her. I don't think Azula would logically be able to understand her mother's feelings at 8 years old. Because if her mother is neglecting her then they aren't close and that means Azula doesn't know her very well (few people understand their parents well). Understanding that her mother has a greater love for Zuko or that her mother dislikes the way she behaves are perfectly reasonable. But without her mother saying such, her saying that her mother thought she was a monster cannot be considered 100% reliable.

I am saying that her word has the same weight as the hallucination because the memory of a 14 year old of being 8 and her opinion of her mother's feelings cannot be considered 100% reliable. Nor can a hallucination (even if a lot of what it is saying is likely true). I give them the same weight.

We know from the comics that the explanation was likely different. We know Ursa didn't think Azula was a monster in the comics. We know she still loves her now. Ursa was scared for her children not of them.

Yes, kids can tell things but in this case it's pretty much confirmed that Ursa did not think Azula was a monster however she did favor Zuko. Azula did have a distance to interpret but she didn't interpret it correctly. This isn't just the memory of an 8 year old. This is a memory belonging to 14 year old who thinks she is a monster and her mother knew it ("She was right, of course") and that's why there is distance between them. Azula believes she is a monster, that's confirmed. Not Ursa.

As I said, the analysis is about Ursa's thoughts, not Azula's. Azula can interpret the distance between her and Ursa as a belief that Azula is a monster. That doesn't make it true on Ursa's end.

X

[julietwiskey1]

What is your take in why Azula is as mistreated by the fandom and writers as she is? It's understandable to glorify your fave character like they do Zuko in fics and comics but why do they feel the need to bash on Azula?

It's kind of horrifying how passionate some people are about hating on a fictional 14 year old girl.

My personal theory is that Azula reminds people of parts of themselves they don't like so they subcounciously project their self loathing onto her- I found out that's why my sister disliked her.

I do think that you are onto something with your theory. It not hard to demonize what you dislike about yourself by hating a proxy. Though it would take a great deal of self awareness to recognize that.

My short and simple explanation is that the narrative hates Azula so the audience hates Azula. That’s really it for most people.

Throughout the cartoon she was always portrayed as a great danger to both Zuko and the gaang. The narrative goes out of its way to show Azula negatively as much as possible. And when it did start to humanize Azula towards the end it was too little too late.

The story also showed Azula as the more successful and preferred child over Zuko. And in the Fire family attention was a rare commodity, only one could get it. So unlike Katara and Sokka Katara’s success didn’t make Sokka less loved or accepted, and he was still able to shine. This does not hold true for Azula and Zuko. So Azula not being in her place is set up as cruel and mean to Zuko in a way that it shouldn’t. The story demonizes Azula for not being the subservient sister society expects of her.

This is how the writers wanted people to see Azula. And the fandom at large gets its cue from the writers and will mostly follow what they lay out.

Which I think is the major flaw in the writing of the show. Things between Azula and Zuko are shown as a zero sum game, as in both Azula and Zuko can’t share or succeed. So Azula’s success is always Zuko’s failure.

So the writers made it so only when Azula fails can Zuko succeed. Azula lost her friends and Zuko gained his. Azula lost her composure and Zuko found new balance in bending. Azula lost her crown and Zuko gained his. Ursa loved Zuko and Ozai loved Azula.

The narrative wants to prove Ozai right for some dumb reason.

People also like to bash on villainous characters as a kind of grandstanding. As if showing her punished, abused, and so forth is a sign that they know what’s good and bad. And that they are a believer in heavy handed justice to fictional characters because they themselves are good. After all good things should happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people, it’s what people want. After all who has heard of such things as mercy.

What concerns me more is why the writers would be so cruel towards her. After all they are the ones who really started the hate and why so many people do hate her. Part of it I think is sexism. While a younger sister can outshine her brother they still need to be caring and put fist their emotional well being.

Sorry for the ramble answer. But I think this is a rather complex question with more variables than I can cover.

[heirscrchd]

🌌 💐

𝐄𝐌𝐎𝐉𝐈 𝐀𝐒𝐊𝐒!

🌌 MILKY WAY - what was the inspiration behind your oc? what was the first thing you decided about them?

Your honor, I love women being evil with morally complex histories and ideals of how good intentions can be played out in the worst of ways. Along with how the nuances of war and ideals of the future change as the years go on and how mental health also impacts our trajectory and relationships.

Genuinely I've loved Azula for a long time, but tbh when I watched Avatar I never actually was in the RP scene. I didn't get into the RP scene till like, 2012? And that's when Korra came out, and I didn't really like it after the ending of season 1ish. It just fell off to me and so i lost interest in the series but recently.

Well tbh, I got really fucking high and went on netflix and saw avatar and was like "oh yeah i should watch that :D" and then made an entire blog in one night. But I genuinely love Azula as a complex character who with her intelligence and planning does believe in the "original" idea of the fire nation's reason for the war: to improve the lives and spread their influence and in turn their prosperity with the world. The only problem being the method of which one does this as she was taught to believe they *must* accept their gifts and if not then force it upon them through shows of strength and power since clearly they don't understand progress.

She's a very interesting character and i love diving into her ideals. i still need to re-read smoke and shadow though because i. i genuinely have no fucking clue what shes doing in that one other than trolling people tbh.

💐 BOUQUET - create a bouqet for them! what do those flowers mean? are any of the flowers their particular favourite?

NOOO MY GREATEST FUCKING WEAKNESS. FUCKING, FLOWER SYMBOLISM? REALLY??? S O BS /lh

Amaryllis - Strength and Pride, not to mention their bright red color is 100% Azula

Pale Red Carnation - “my heart aches for you,” more akin to feelings of how she longs for her family's love and affection. Or perhaps how Ursa's heart aches for Azula and the treatment she was put through and the love she never could have given her.

Marigold - Grief, cruelty, like Azula she is beautiful as she is dangerous and a representation of how even the "nicest" looking peoples can hold a much darker side to them.

(made up flower) Pheonix Flowers - Bright red and beautiful they blossom for only a short period much like Azula who while in the peak of her campaign and work within the war flourished and accomplished many things. Yet like them, their beauty only lasts a short time before they are wrung dry but the hot summer heat and sun combust into flames burning away to ashes and leaving only the seeds of new flowers behind. Azula would also find this to be her fate as she loses grip on reality and her mental state combusting and burning away to nothing but ashes of her former self.

[seyaryminamoto]

I apologise if this question may lead to a massive spoiler, but I wish to know the answer all the same; What do you think will be the dynamic between Azula and Ursa in the future of this fic? I believe that they may reconcile, but will Azula accept the former princess in her new family? What may be the dynamic between the two? Will Sokka be the glue in their relationship? All I would like to know in my rambling is how Ursa's and Azula's relationship may develop into the future.

Ooookay, that answer goes under the break 🤣 read at your own risk, people!

God I kinda don't wanna talk too much because so many Ursa-related things have been some of my best kept secrets throughout Gladiator's process... but I also wanna talk so much about it because I'm very hyped over this and I love to see people who are also interested in how this will play out!

So... let's get cracking:

What will their dynamic be? Azula and Ursa's dynamic will start tense, for sure. Even when neither of them actively wants to antagonize the other, the years of trouble between them, the unresolved issues, are still very much present between them. Ursa is now much more aware of the awful effect she had on her daughter during her younger years, she has been punished harshly for it by the swamp, which absolutely drove home the point that she was already starting to understand, at the time when she left the Fire Nation: she wasn't the best mother she could have been to her daughter. Azula, on the other hand, has been through soooooooo much that her early issues with Ursa, while not meaningless because they never could be, certainly appear a lot less awful now that she can see them from a distance, so to speak. Therefore, initial tension, cordiality, and then... ... And then they'll find one point in common. The one thing only the two of them would EVER understand. One thing that basically bonds them in ways that they can't bond with anyone else. Ursa can't have that dynamic with Zuko. Azula could never have it with anyone else either. It's very specifically something very important for them, so important that these two would be the ONLY people who would ever understand each other when it comes to this... And that basically breaks the dam and changes things for the better :'D they become a lot more open with each other, their relationship begins to heal, and things get a lot better quite quickly for their restored parent-child relationship. While obviously it's too late to make things perfect, they absolutely can them better, and both Ursa and Azula will be ready to make those efforts for each other.

Will Azula accept Ursa in her family? As you may guess after reading the previous answer? Yes, haha. Azula will work towards fixing one very serious problem Ursa needs solving, and after that, Ursa's basically going to be like Persephone and spend half a year with one of her hids and half the year with the other one. At least, that's my current plan for her future 😂

Will Sokka be the glue in their relationship? ... Actually? No 🤣 someone else will be the glue, so to speak, but Sokka certainly will help and he will be the one who tells Azula what's up with her mother. He'll give her the chance to decide what she wants to do, when to meet her, and how to manage the whole situation. Of course, he will tell her everything he's learned from Ursa and how affected she has been by the things she's been through, but all in all, he steps back and allows them to build their bond themselves rather than being their facilitator. But he will definitely help, and Ursa will be stoked to see those two together once she finally does... though Azula, of course, will be very awkward about it because it's Azula. Poor girl won't know how to handle having a supportive mother in some regards, and if Ursa spots any PDA, Azula will most likely be embarrassed to death by it... but a little embarrassment over this is definitely a step-up compared to the awful things she's had to deal with as of late :'D so I'm sure Azula will be very happy to trade her current problems with: "I can't kiss you in front of my MOM that's awkward" "Azula we're literally forty years old..." "Your point???"

Soooo... as you can see, it will develop. Quite a bit. It will become healthier than it has ever been. No doubt the scars can't be erased completely, but Azula can gain a better understanding of her mother and her circumstances, just as much as Ursa has come to accept that she absolutely fucked up in many regards and could have/should have done better for her daughter.

Hope that's a good answer without being... too spoilery 😂

[bendingmuses]

@heirscrchd wanted me to talk about this scene from the comics. This bot long, so bear with me. Cause I have thoughts.

So, a bit of backstory for those have not read the comics. The gaang, minus Toph and plus Azula, are in search for Ursa (Azula and Zuko's mom). They had just fought off a spirit wolf that spat moth-wasps at them. Everything has calmed down after that and Zuko and Sokka are taking first watch (because they don't exactly trust Azula). While Aang meditates, and Katara and Azula sleep. Azula has fought them and ran from them to try and get ahead of them. So they need to be careful.

Azula is shivering, it's a wonder she can sleep at all. Especially while her mind is essentially attacking her in her sleep. Which is terrifying to think about. That you can't trust you own mind even when sleeping. But then Sokka asks that question: "After everything that's happened, you're still gonna let her sleep with her hands unbound?"

Which, come on Sokka. Let the girl have some bit of dignity. It's probably really uncomfortable to sleep bound up. I know she's messed up, but you all have a common goal right now.

Then starts my favorite conversation in the comics. Ever since his own redemption and rise to Fire Lord, Zuko has been willing to give Azula chance after chance. He desperately wants a connection with his family, and he's willing to make questionable decisions to get there. Including bringing Azula along on this mission, and trusting her to not run off or go against them. He wants to believe that his sister is capable of being and doing better. Just like him and Uncle Iroh. That she can learn from her mistakes and come out of it a better person.

I mean, just look at the scene that made him want to search for his mother in the first place. A speech about how the way a dignitary treats their family is a good indicator of how they will treat their nation. Which, in Zuko's case, is a far cry from a good sign for the future.

Zuko is unsure and questioning. He just wants his family, and as great as Uncle Iroh is, he also doesn't want to disturb his peace in Ba Sing Se too much. He's trying so hard, but maybe it would be a little easier to be Fire Lord if he had his family at his side. At least, as much of his family as he can get.

But back to the original scene in question.

Not only is this just a really cute moment between Zuko and Sokka, but we get to see more of Sokka being a caretaker for Katara. We get to see the good side of having a sibling, and so does Zuko. And I love the parallels here. Two big brothers that just want to do right by their little sisters. Granted, Sokka seems to have a better grasp of it than Zuko does, but can you really blame him? Zuko and Azula were pitted against each other all their childhood. It's kind of hard to fight against something so ingrained in you from a young age.

I mean, just look how soft Sokka looks caring for Katara. I love them so much, and would kill for Zuko and Azula to have something similar. Though, I know it's a far cry from what we'll probably ever get in canon.

"Seem's like you're getting the short end of that stick," Zuko says when Sokka compares throwing witticisms at Katara like she throws snowballs at him. Zuko is so used to comparing himself and his life to Azula's that getting the short end of the stick seems foreign to him. He was always striving to be equal at least equal to Azula. Which seemed impossible until he finally accepted his destiny and learned what true firebending was. So, he doesn't quite understand where Sokka is coming from, but he wants to. He wants that type of relationship. Where they're not constantly fighting to outdo the other, but instead just to tease each other. To be somewhat normal and have stupid little arguments instead of life-threatening ones.

Lastly is such a cute and sweet moment from Zuko. Putting a blanket over Azula so she won't freeze. Which, to most, it doesn't seem like much, but it is. Zuko during the war would have never thought to do something like that for Azula. He would have let her freeze, because if she's so great and smart, then she can figure it out. Which comes from a place of resentment and insecurity. Not that he's becoming more secure in himself and realizing how much damage his father actually did to them, he's starting to resent her less and less. Does that mean he necessarily trusts her? No. What it does mean is that he's willing to not just see her as just her war crimes and terrible behavior towards him. He's willing to look at her as the victim she is, but also hold her accountable for her actions.

In the end, Zuko wants Azula to do better. He wants to have that relationship with he where they can actually be friends. In his core, he really does love his sister. He just needed to be able to separate her from Ozai for him to actually start trying to express that. After all, I think he fully believed the institution was supposed to help her. Until he realized that it was doing more damage than good.

What I'm saying, is let Zuko be a good brother. That's all he wants. He wants to do right by Azula, and now Kiyi. Just like how he wants to do right by the Fire Nation. Because if he can rebuild his broken family, then he can rebuild the Fire Nation. To him, they are kind of one in the same.

[peony-pearl]

OOOOOOH I always LOVE reading your tags & if you ever decide to expand on your "what if" scenarios let me know, I'm certainly intrigued!

AHHH thank you!! ok so I might just add what I have thought out here but like

It absolutely makes sense that Zuko would be unhappy in the Fire Nation; it's poetic for his manic desire to return home. But like imagine if, probably after The Beach, he ends up warming up (hehe) to everything.

It starts with Azula talking about how she believed Ursa thought she was a monster, and that she was right - everything goes silent until Zuko says 'well maybe she was wrong'; then putting a strain on his memory of Ursa because now Azua and Ozai were all he had left. Azula is surprised, and Zuko sees how this affects her, and... things just start slowly thawing out between them.

They return to the Palace, Iroh sends the letter about 'Zuko's great-grandfather', and it goes as normal. Zuko is only feeling stressed from Iroh's 'meddling' when he's trying to give Zuko the peace of mind he thought his nephew needed, since due to his previous visits, he was so unhappy. However, after this episode, we don't see Iroh again until the finale; so imagine that Zuko finally takes Azula's advice to heart and... stops seeing him.

His relationship with Mai flourishes; Ozai even seeks him out more often for some 'father/son' time (and when Zuko finds out Azula concocted the outing, he's actually happy). He finally has a family.

But then when he goes to the War Room and he's told to talk about the Earth Kingdom... it all comes back to him. All of the faces and fellow refugees he'd once dismissed; he hears his father and sister and the soldiers laugh about the misfortune they'll eventually endure of their homes being burned to the ground, and something wells inside of Zuko. He's confused... and suddenly he's angry again. Especially when he's told that he will have nothing to do on Day of Black Sun. Ozai tells him that, as his heir, he needs to stay safe and out of danger; so he will remain in his chambers until further notice.

Later as Azula goes to see him after they get out of their armor and she tries to insist he join her in sneaking some of Li and Lo's tarts, he's back to being crabby and short with her. Azula asks him what his problem is, and all he can think about is Iroh telling him about Avatar Roku being his great-grandfather alongside Sozin. How Zuko's disdain for the idea for Sozin's Comet is fueling him to understand what his Uncle was telling him. Zuko really does have the capability to choose his own path... but at what cost? Zuko has continuously lost things that have mattered to him.

He looks at Azula, the closest they've ever been. If he left... he'd destroy everything they'd created. This was the first time they'd ever had a bond. He couldn't just throw that away. But if he took her to the Avatar... if she didn't destroy them first, then his friends would do just that to her.

Maybe he could just... look away. The Earth Kingdom wasn't his home anyway... but in a way it was. The name 'Lee' still resonated in his mind. He would hear the name in the streets and would jump. Azula would tease him and ask 'who's Lee? Was that your boyfriend in Ba Sing Se?'. A part of that Kingdom still resonated inside of his mind and his heart. They had taken him in when Azula was willing to hunt him and Iroh down (granted... the Earth Kingdom had no idea he was prince of the Fire Nation so... yeah maybe he DIDN'T owe them that much? he definitely used that to try and look away from the subject).

Either way, he tells Azula he's tired and he's going to bed early. Azula shrugs and knocks him on the head and is like 'fine, go clear your brain.' and he hates that he's missing out on spending more time with her; but... everything is suddenly turning on it's head, like it always does. He panics, sitting in his room and hyperventilating as he can't see a way out.

He's going to continue to fail someone he loves. But hasn't he done so already? To so many people. He's just a failure; but maybe he can change it; or maybe there's no point; can a failure still be loved?

So many thoughts run through his mind.

Until he has to realize... this isn't about him.

He thinks about Song and her burns. He thinks about when he used his Firebending to make Jin happy.

He thinks about Jet. What had happened to him when Azula took down the city?

If Zuko was going to be a prince, even a Fire Lord, he had to look beyond himself.

But he was thinking about Earth Kingdom subjects. But even so... hadn't he once been one of their own?

The Avatar is one of all elements. Zuko could be a ruler mindful of his fellow elements as well.

His family was going to destroy the Earth Kingdom. They'd already reduced the Air Nomads and the Water tribes to ashes. He'd laughed about their misery once. His Uncle had once led these efforts.

'You alone can cleanse the sins of our family.'

Agni, he'd already been so alone for so long. Why alone, uncle?

He thought about Azula again. He thought about telling her what he'd learned about Roku.

But every time he thought about telling her, about how she would feel about his growing idea to leave... he felt that distance again. He was falling from his sister's side.

He thought about Ursa. No, his sister wasn't a monster. But... she was so firmly attached to their father's teachings that, the moment she were to notice Zuko's waning involvement with the war, it was going to be over.

Zuko looks at his hands.

He was going to hurt them all.

Azula, Mai, Ozai...

He remembered Iroh's face when his own heart had been broken by his nephew.

Zuko's gut twists. It seems all he's good for is hurting people.

But maybe he can get to Azula before it's too late. Maybe he can work to eventually telling her about Roku; he can reveal who 'Lee' is... or was. Or is? He doesn't know anymore. His head hurts. All he knows is the horrible truth that he'll let his loved ones down.

It's going to be so hard.

But ultimately, he hears his mother alongside Iroh.

'That's who you are. Someone who keeps fighting even though it's hard.'

He knows his mind is made up. He sighs. There are still a few days until the Eclipse. Until then... all he can do is his best; maybe he can manage to get Azula to join him... until she finds out his true motive to join the Avatar and she fries him.

But he tries to keep a positive outlook (as positive as Zuko can maintain) ... after all, he'll need one for when he tries to convince Team Avatar to let him join.

[tinky-dinky]

Sokka: [Sarcastically.] Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Let's bring the guy who's constantly trying to kill us.

Friendly reminder that Sokka as early as Book 1 believed Zuko to be a constant threat on their survival, yet they become "best friends" just fine.

My point here is the hypocrisy when some people claim that Azula can't be friends with Gaang because she "tried to kill them". Yeah, true. But I wish this "realism" appeals to Zuko and Iroh first.

Fanon: The Gaang thinks “Zuko never tried to kill us, and Azula is much more evil than he is since she tried to kill us”

Canon: 

Zuko: (Cut to a close up of his face) Look, I admit I've done some awful things. I was wrong (lowers his head down and presses a palm against his temple) to try to capture you, and I'm sorry that I attacked the Water Tribe. (Camera pans across the Gaang who are still not pleased with his presence) And I never should've sent that Fire Nation assassin after you. (Sokka and Toph widen their eyes in shock) I'm gonna try to stop him.

Sokka: (interrupts) Wait, you sent (unsheathes his boomerang and holds it towards Zuko) Combustion Man after us?

Zuko: (Cut back to a slightly panicking Zuko) Well, that's not his name, but...

Sokka: (off screen) Oh, sorry. (Cut back to a frontal shot of Toph and Sokka as he remains in a defensive position) I didn't mean to insult your friend.

Zuko: (raising his voice) He's not my friend!

Toph (Cut to a visibly angry Toph) That guy (points an accusing finger at Zuko) locked me and Katara in jail and tried to blow us (swipes her hand down audibly) all up.

and

Katara: (Cut to a close up side view of Katara who looks down sorely) Haha.

Sokka: (Cut to Sokka and he raises his cup) To Zuko. Who knew after all those times he tried to snuff us out, today, he be our hero. (Cut to Sokka's point of view as the rest except Katara raise their cups)

Honestly, Zuko comes far closer to wiping out the entire Gaang(via Combustion Man) than Azula ever does.

Ursa can’t control how Ozai treats Zuko and Azula, but she can control how she treats them. If she instills toxic, imperialist values in them, that’s on her. If she neglects Azula and never shows her love in a way she can understand, that’s on Ursa. If her behavior convinces Azula that she hates Azula and thinks she is a monster, that’s on Ursa

Just because Ozai is an awful parent doesn’t mean Ursa gets off the hook for the damage her parenting caused her children.

Where does the notion that “Azula loves Zuko but hides it well”/”cares about him in her own way” come from? Azula is extremely obvious about deeply loving Zuko(just watch “The Beach”). Zuko is not the same way in the other direction.

I also find the emphasis on Azula taking responsibility to be odd, because of what other characters do not do. Zuko never takes responsibility for at least half of the bad things he does, while Iroh only ever takes real responsibility for Lu Ten's death and never really for anything else. Mai and Ty Lee are never shown "taking responsibility" for the bad things they do, and like Zuko their role in conquering Ba Sing Se remains unmarked on. I think the narrative treated Jet poorly, but I don't think he ever clearly takes responsibility for the bad things he did, like manipulating Katara. Singling Azula out seems very odd.

Fuck. Off. I am not interested in your bullshit. I do not care about whatever nonsense you’ve made up. Go away.

[umalvie]

it turns out i have more to say actually.

azula understands love for zuko. she understands that their mother loved him and their uncle loves him and mai loves him and ty lee is at least fond of him and she herself loves him.

but azula has never felt loved. not for who she is as a person. as azula sees it, she has only ever received affection and approval and anything akin to love for what she can do for others and for what she represents. azula has her father's approval because of her prodigy, and she has her nation's because of her status. even with mai and ty lee who are her closest friends and who she loves and who she believes are loyal to her and at least fond of her, azula knows that there is at least a sense of obligation and duty keeping them here. they are all just playing the roles they've been assigned, after all.

so let's look at the people who were supposed to love her automatically, even without her status.

ozai does not love azula. not truly. he loves what azula represents and what she can do for him. he's the parent azula feels the most seen and approved by, but she's not stupid. azula might believe her father loves her on some level, but she knows that his love is not like ursa's love for zuko. she might rationalize this because her father is a much more important man who can't go around sacrificing something like his life for her sake the way ursa did for zuko, but she knows that these two loves are not the same. on some level, azula knows that her father does not love her the way a parent loves their child.

ursa loves azula, but she never expresses that in a way that azula understands. the only interactions we ever see the two of them have are ones in which ursa is reprimanding azula, criticizing her, asking what's wrong with her, etc. these actions are, in all likelihood, born of love and a desire to see azula behaving in ways ursa felt were healthier and more "normal" (the idea of normalcy in an imperialist nation as a member of the monarchist family is ofc insane in the first place, though), but to a small child who is receiving only negative attention from her mother, that is not at all what's conveyed. given what azula says about how ursa thought she was a monster and was right to do so (and keeping in mind that it's ridiculous to assume azula agrees with what she believes to be ursa's assessment of her because "she knows she's the villain" since she, like every other fire nation character, has been indoctrinated her whole life), it's clear that azula does not believe ursa loved her at all. but azula doesn't blame ursa for this. she's hurt by it of course, but ursa's failure to make azula feel loved is not something azula thinks ursa is at fault for.

azula has so internalized the idea that she is a monster (most likely reinforced by her father isolating her and encouraging the idea) that she simply accepts it. she doesn't expect anyone to love azula, the girl. she expects to be respected, envied, and admired, but not for who she is as a person. she expects this response to azula, the princess and azula, the prodigy.

after all, if even her parents, the people who are most duty-bound in the world to love her, don't really love her, then who would?

she doesn't even expect love from her older brother. for all she does in her attempts to care for him once she persuades him back to the fire nation, azula never once expects him to reciprocate this care. the only thing azula seems to actually want from him in return for her care is honesty which he denies her. and she allows it. she doesn't do anything to harm him or deny him her care when he lies to her face, even though she clearly suspects he's lying. yes, she antagonizes him frequently, but a) even though the context of their relationship is harsher than a regular sibling relationship due to their family baggage, it's still very normal for siblings to antagonize each other, b) zuko absolutely antagonizes her as well, c) this is very in line with the relationship they had as small children as well, and d) despite the fact that zuko is hostile to her, mistrusts her, believes the worst of her, and has always treated her this way, azula has never relented in loving him, even if she does show it in abnormal ways. even if zuko doesn't love her back.

yes, she's shocked when he betrays her to join the avatar, but that's not about a belief that her brother loved her. it's definitely salt in the wound that he told ozai that she lied to him as it's a complete forsaking of her as his sister, but the reason azula didn't expect zuko to do something like that is because he has grown out of the person she knew him to be. the zuko azula has always known wants nothing more than their father's approval and his own honor as the crown prince.

so not only can azula only understand love through the obligation of duty, but she believes she's unlovable. yes, her father instilled in her the idea that fear was the only reliable way, but azula has seen proof over and over again that even in the confines of duty, love can overcome fear. just not for someone like her. for someone like azula, fear is the only reliable way.

because no one would ever love her.

it would be really easy to claim that azula's fatal flaw is her inability to understand love, and the show definitely wants us to believe that given her breakdown, but i think it's a serious oversimplification of her relationship with love.

azula was not shown real, meaningful love as a child. i'm not saying no one loved her period; i very much believe ursa did love her, but she failed to make azula feel loved. my exact opinion on that is frankly quite complicated, but that failure means that azula has grown up not really knowing what it feels like to be loved. however, to say azula doesn't know what love looks like at all is a lie.

ursa was actually the one to show azula what love looked like through her love for zuko. this isn't something azula particularly understands since the only form of anything resembling love (conditional and twisted as it is) that she's ever experienced was from her father in exchange for her excellence, so zuko experiencing a much kinder love from their mother despite his failures is confusing to her. but despite the love conflicting with what azula has been taught in her personal experiences, she still knew that it was love. so to azula, love is not just what ursa felt for zuko, but what she did for him. that is to say, love is sacrifice.

ursa sacrificed herself for zuko. she saved his life at the cost of her own (even if we acknowledge the comics, ursa still gave up her life and memories as she knew them to save zuko). this is the ultimate act of love, and azula knows that. she resents it. mother liked zuko better. mother loved zuko and not her. that's how she sees it because that's how it looked.

but how does that prove that azula understands love? well, it doesn't!

still, azula does something similar to their mother in bringing zuko home with his honor restored. quickly, re the idea of her doing this with ulterior motives: not only is it insane and stupid to suggest that she somehow knew the avatar wasn't actually dead and zuko was aware of this; it also doesn't make sense for her to risk both her reputation/honor in the fire nation and her safety with her father (the man who taught her that fear was the only reliable way) by lying about something so serious when she could just take zuko home as a prisoner if she doesn't love her brother.

but what is azula sacrificing for zuko by bringing him home if it doesn't kill her? aside from the obvious thing she gives up to do this (her status as the heir apparent), azula is also sacrificing her status as their father's preferred child. this might not sound that huge a deal, but this is something zuko has spent his entire life chasing after and envying azula over, and given that their father is the only person who has ever shown azula anything resembling love and the person whose approval is the most important to her, this is massive. their father's approval is the thing azula has based her self-worth on. so much of her identity comes from her pursuit of it, and just like that, azula decides to not just share it with zuko but jeopardize his "love" for her entirely. even if ozai never finds out that zuko wasn't the one who killed the avatar, even if the avatar doesn't somehow come back, azula is directly disobeying his orders by bringing zuko home. he didn't want zuko home as his heir. he wanted zuko home in a prison cell. but azula loves her brother, so she did it anyway, and she goes out of her way to keep him there.

i don't think that azula misunderstands her own motivations in bringing zuko home. she includes him in her activities with her friends, she finds him to console him (to the best of her ability), she's worried that he's angry with her, she asks him to open up to her, she advises him not to do reckless things that could get him branded a traitor, she tries to get him to tell her if they need to be worried about the avatar, and she covers up his mistakes in front of their father. she's extremely rough around the edges, but she's trying. she wants him to keep being the crown prince. she wants him to become the fire lord when their father abdicates or dies. she wants him to be home. she knows that. she acts with that in mind.

so azula knows that even fear can fail. she knows that she herself is an example of someone who does something dangerous and irrational for the sake of someone she loves. she understands what it means to love someone.

here's the catch, though: azula understands love in the context of filial piety. she's rationalized her love for her brother making her behave irrationally because he is her older brother. she's supposed to love him. if you want to see my thoughts about this see this post, but azula expects people to act within the confines of the roles they are defined by within society. in her mind, these roles are those that compose the five cardinal relationships: ruler-subject, father-son, elder brother-younger brother, husband-wife, and friend-friend. while her love for her older brother makes her act in a way that directly conflicts with the first two roles expected of her (ruler and daughter), she justifies it to herself with the piety she owes her brother. she likely refuses to examine it any further than that because to admit that she's acted against filial piety would seriously conflict with everything she's been raised up to be.

so why does she overlook the friend-friend role with others? with mai and ty lee, specifically? it's not because she doesn't understand love at all; it's because she thinks that because zuko so brazenly opposed his role as subject, son, and elder brother that he has forfeited his right to any love or loyalty from any of them (though i highly doubt that she doesn't love him anymore at this point; love is not a switch to be flipped on or off after all), so for mai to betray azula, her friend and the crown princess, as well as their country is unfathomable to azula. and for ty lee to betray her for mai, who has just opposed filial piety the same way zuko did? it just doesn't make sense.

azula understands love, but she will only allow herself to understand it through the lens of duty.

[sokkastyles]

So that post is a reply to this one, for context. This is the reblog that I was talking about.

And this is a reblog of the above reblog.

I remember reading and deciding not to engage with the original post because I find the interpretation of Ty Lee as a super-smart weaponized femininity girlboss mastermind to be...annoying. Which is not to say that Ty Lee is dumb, but Ty Lee's constant adoration of Azula is a defense mechanism, not a manipulation tactic. It's the coping mechanism of an abuse victim, and Ty Lee breaking free to save Mai is something she's shown to be just as confused by as Azula, because it's a victim who's been finally pushed to the breaking point. I'm not trying to diminish Ty Lee's strength, and this is a minor nitpick, but I get annoyed when people think that feminine or kind girls have to be secret masterminds to be worthwhile. Of course Ty Lee is deliberately saying things that she knows Azula wants to hear for her own protection, but to describe it as manipulation implies that Ty Lee has power over Azula, when it's Ty Lee using a defense mechanism to maintain a relationship that hurts her. See Azula slut-shaming Ty Lee at the party and Ty Lee protecting herself by offering to teach Azula how to flirt, which Azula treats dismissively even as she enjoys the attention being back on her. Ty Lee does what a lot of people who are in these kinds of relationships wind up doing, which is give Azula constant positive feedback to avoid being a target of her, or at least, to avoid being a bigger target, because Azula is still cruel to Ty Lee, but less when Ty Lee is validating her. But Ty Lee admits in the comics that she is still afraid of Azula, so her fawning is less a manipulation and more a survival tactic. She's not trying to control Azula, she's trying to minimize the abuse.

Anyways, I am laughing at the claim that Azula said trust was for fools because she just loved Mai and Ty Lee so much and realized that was a mistake and is now lamenting it. You can only interpret it that way if you ignore that she said this in response to Ursa saying "all your life you've used fear to control people, like your friends Mai and Ty Lee." Azula is not lamenting the trust she put in her friends, she is explaining why she cannot and has never relied on trust, and justifying that in the face of the vision of her mother telling her what she knows is true deep down, that she drove her friends away because she never loved them. Controlling people through fear is what she has always done, throughout the show, in every relationship she has. Azula also further says to her mother "even you fear me," to prove this point. This also gets to the heart of why she could never connect to her mother and believed that her mother did not love her, because she believed that her mother feared her and therefore was someone to be controlled (which is why we see her as a child lying to her mother and resenting her mother trying to correct her behavior, and ignoring Ursa's teaching in favor of pleasing her more powerful father, who was the one with the control.

"Not one of them tries to return the counseling she gave them." Give me a break. Azula does not give counseling in "The Beach," she makes dismissive armchair analysis and then makes it about herself and how she's better than them ("I don't have sob stories like all of you") and then admits her own trauma in the least vulnerable way possible ("I don't care"; "she was right of course") while making sure she still keeps everyone else at a distance and under control. They don't reach out to her because she doesn't want them to and she's just belittled them in really cruel and personal ways. Like, tell me you don't have friends in real life without telling me. Or tell me you're really confused about why no one wants to be around you, if you genuinely do not understand why Azula's friends don't respond to her kindly here.

I like how this person does the "Oh, but they just don't appreciate what a good friend she is" and then backtracks into the "but she doesn't know how else to be" song and dance. I mean, sure, but so what? An abusive person who acts abusively because that's all they know how to do is still an abusive person.

And the claim that Azula was so blindsided because she genuinely thought she was being a good friend is BS, because we already know why she was blindsided. She tells us.

Azula: I never expected this from you. The thing I don't understand is "Why?". Why would you do it? You know the consequences.

Mai: I guess you just don't know people as well as you think you do. You miscalculated. I love Zuko more than I fear you.

Azula: No, you miscalculated! You should have feared me more!

And then after Ty Lee chi blocks her:

Ty Lee: [Runs to a shocked Mai, shaking her from her stupor.] Come on! Let's get out of here!

Azula: [Still on the ground; angrily.] You're both fools!

Which echoes the conversation with her mother later. She explicitly tells Mai that she was blindsided because Mai "knew the consequences." Not because she thinks her relationship with Mai is so strong, but because she thinks Mai is afraid of being punished for not obeying. This is exactly what she says to her mother, that fear and control are the only way to maintain relationships, and trust is for fools, echoed in her saying that Mai and Ty Lee are fools for acting out of love - Mai for Zuko and Ty Lee for Mai - rather than fear of Azula.

And the thing is, this isn't like, a minor quarrel where Azula just didn't realize what she was asking Mai to do might be something she would disagree with. Azula %100 expected Mai to sit there and watch her boyfriend die because Azula thought she had her that much under control that it didn't matter to Azula how Mai felt about it. This shows you exactly how much Azula values and cares about Mai as a person rather than a drone she can control. That is to say, not at all.

I wish we could move past the idea that Azula understands people because she's superficially smart. She's able to read and exploit people's weaknesses, true, but when it comes to what really motivates them, she does not understand at all, because she has fundamentally rejected love and trust in favor of controlling through fear. And that is impossible to do to another person unless you have dehumanized them first. So no, Azula does not understand Mai and Ty Lee, nor her brother, nor her mother. She doesn't even understand herself. That's the whole point, the whole tragedy of it.

Like, honey, Azula ain't gonna make healthy new friendships if we all just continue to deny why those friendships were unhealthy to begin with.

[juniperhillpatient]

zuko and azula are emotionally mature or emotionally immature?

This is an interesting question! I would say the fire siblings are both quite emotionally immature to a pretty extreme degree, just in very different ways.

I would argue that Azula throughout the series is more emotionally mature than Zuko is throughout the series. In The Beach, she comforts Ty Lee when she accidentally snaps & says something rude & goes to check on Zuko in their old vacation home, knowing he'll be there & upset. In The Beach, Zuko can't even deal with Mai speaking to another male their age & spends the whole time raging. However, I think Zuko, by the end of the series though, is more emotionally mature than Azula is by the end of the series. This may be unpopular among Azula fans but I think it's true. Zuko rejects Fire Nation ideology ("Growing up, we were taught that the Fire Nation was the greatest civilization in history. And somehow, the War was our way of sharing our greatness with the rest of the world. What an amazing lie that was") & his father's treatment of him ("For so long, all I wanted was for you to love me, to accept me. I thought it was my honor that I wanted, but really, I was just trying to please you. You, my father, who banished me just for talking out of turn. My father, who challenged me, a 13-year-old boy, to an Agni Kai. How can you possibly justify a duel with a child? It was cruel! And it was wrong.")

Azula meanwhile is still stuck in a childlike ideology wherein questioning the values drilled into her head or her father is not an option by the end of the series. This is because she is not given the space to explore the world & learn & grow & gain other experiences like her big brother. I would say that emotional maturity is the ability to understand yourself & others & empathize as well as the ability to make your own decisions & come to your own conclusions about your values.

Both siblings lack emotional maturity because they were raised by a father who values the war effort & his own political power above his family. He pits his children against one another in an unfair competition.

Unfortunately, even by the end of the series, neither sibling has totally broken free of their father's mentality. The main evidence of this? They're still viewing one another through the lens of an enemy standing in the way of what they want. In the finale, when Azula feels dismissed she says "you can't treat me like Zuko." Which is...telling. Zuko hasn't really grown out of seeing Azula as the thing standing in his way of everything he wants either. Is a boy who says he wants to put his sister "in her place" (referring to a potentially deadly battle) really past his jealousy & inferiority complex over her? It's not so different from his mentality all the way back in The Siege of the North ("There's always something. Not that you would understand. You're like my sister. Everything always came easy to her. She's a firebending prodigy, and everyone adores her. My father says she was born lucky. He says I was lucky to be born. I don't need luck, though. I don't want it. I've always had to struggle and fight and that's made me strong. It's made me who I am.")

For Zuko & Azula to truly emotionally mature they would have to reject their father's ideology & treatment of them (which is why I think Zuko is closer by the end of the series) as well as the false narrative Ozai has them believing that they are one another's enemies. Ozai turns Zuko & Azula against one another (calling Azula "born lucky" dismissing her hard work & insulting Zuko in one go & reminding Zuko that he's "lucky he was born") & I think he also contributed to turning Azula against her mother. Azula's similarities to Ozai in attitude, intelligence, firebending skill & ambition are pretty hard to miss & we see how Azula is certain her own mother "thought she was a monster." Sure, that perceived rejection could be all on Ursa, or it could be Azula being delusional. There's not enough evidence to be certain. But we can be certain Ozai pits the siblings against one another so why wouldn't he pit Azula against her missing mother too, isolating her & making her worship him above all else?

This got away from me but my point is that Ozai shows signs of a textbook manipulator & abuser. Breaking away from that mentality & recognizing the lies is a huge step toward emotional maturity & it is possible for both siblings to reach a healthier emotional place but it would take work, time, & willingness to change.

TLDR: the fire siblings are both super fucked up & emotionally immature but with the capacity to change

Thank you for the ask!

[myfandomrambles]

You're right, using the wording "leaving" was wrong. Ursa was forced out due to Ozai's plan to seize power. Ozai got what he wanted: the throne and sole access to shaping the future of his children. I don't doubt Ozai would have killed Zuko, he was always the scapegoat, but I think what did happen was his ultimate goal.

The "not wanting to be there" phrasing comes from what I gathered from the comics in that she was dragged into a life she didn't want. But that isn't clear in the show I should have specified exactly. I'll admit this is kind of a sore spot due to my trauma. Even so, I think anyone can see Ura’s situation is the same as many people who can give birth and end up trapped with partners and in situations they hate. This is something that has historically and still is common. When situations like this happen they are so complicated and make relationships between parent and child fraught even if there is so much love. And I think in this story similar things would be going on between Ursa and her children. 

My original point was not to deny that she was abused but more meant to zero in on a specific dynamic that would have affected Zuko and Azula. And the love she did have for them, including the affection we see her give to Zuko and even in some cases to Azula (though Azula's behaviour caused her distress) would have been a countervailing force to Ozai's abuse and the loss of it would have been very hard. Azula would be completely controlled by their father and Zuko would be left only with his father's disdain for him. (That is until Iroh but that relationship is not the point here)

Most of my frustrations when it comes to people who call Azula abusive and moralise the situation are about the lack of understanding they give Azula. They make characters compete in traumatic Olympics. And you exemplify it yourself.

You can have sympathy for both Azula and Zuko, but you shouldn't have sympathy for both of them equally because Azula internalized her father's abuse in a way Zuko didn't and went on to abuse Zuko. If you deny that, you don't actually have sympathy for both because you don't have sympathy for Zuko being abused by his sister.

I mean sad for you that you have such limited sympathy. It must be boring to not be able to view complex situations as such. Sucks to be you.

(I see this the other way too when people say Zuko wasn't as abused as Azula due to Zuko getting attention from Iroh. And like that's bullshit too)

Azula internalised the abuse. That was part of my point. Her spot was the one Ozai was making into his perfect soldier. We do see her act poorly to Zuko. And we know this hurt him. In Zuko Alone, we see that the way she treated him stuck with him, but the situation he is remembering is the one I was discussing above with Azulon, Ozai and Ursa. Azula made the situation worse but that doesn't mean she is abusing Zuko. 

There are a lot of intricacies when you have siblings who are abused by their parent(s) but in different ways. How that displays itself in how they grow older isn't always pretty. Any trauma experienced jointly by family members can cause different responses that don't need to be placed in a hierarchy. 

Sokka and Katara fight, Katara even said Sokka didn't love their mother as much as her, and I don't think Ktara abused Sokka. Their dynamic is not allowed to happen like it could have if they weren't in a war. Katara was turned into a mini adult and helped Gran-Gran lead their tribal family. This changed how they saw each other and interacted. I believe there are similar dynamics with the fire nation's siblings. We know for a fact that Azula was Ozai's favourite, similar to the idea of a Golden Child, many people believe that's a situation with no harm, but it is. 

Azula was used as an arm of Ozai's abuse. She used his words and manipulative tendencies to control her situation. And like I said this did hurt Zuko, it is a major part of his complex trauma. 

Azula internalised her father's abusive world views. That's not what I was countering. And it's much more obvious because of the way she learned to manipulate situations. We see them being young; it seems that she was willing to make fun of Zuko in situations when he needed kindness. Azula hurt Zuko; this doesn’t automatically make her abusive on the level of her father!

It is also very clear that what we see of Zuko, especially in season one and early season two is someone trying to balance his empathy, his uncle's teachings and his internalised abuse and propaganda. He had more access to his empathy and was able to use that as well as his experiences in the earth kingdom to realise that his father doesn't love him and that the fire nation hurts people. That there is value in other cultures. And I think this is fascinating from a narrative perspective and something that can be relatable to abuse survivors and those of us deconstructing harmful belief systems. I think this doesn’t have to show Azula as less deserving of compassion as we don’t know that she couldn’t have a similar arc, Zuko found his strength and will to change, it doesn’t support or negate Azula having the same ability. 

I can understand that for people who experienced sibling abuse, their relationship would be very triggering. I get that, and I am so sorry. I know abuse and when it comes from anyone you love and should be able to trust it is devastating. And if someone can’t bring themselves to offer Azula sympathy because she hits too close to home, I'm not judging those people.

I just don't believe that Azula's behaviour makes her one of Zuko's prime abusers but I understand if you believe that. 

The part that pisses me off about people who say that she is just another abuser is that it flattens all nuance and complicated storytelling and how it mirrors real abuse dynamics and indoctrination. People propagate the idea she deserves less sympathy and understanding because she isn't a good abuse victim. And that somehow sympathising with how Zuko was damaged by his whole family means I must not sympathise with Azula as much.

Compassion and understanding can and should be extended to victims who also hurt others. Because writing them off is how you end up with just more pain. like no, fuck that. 

Ursa deserves understanding because she was in a no-win situation of abuse by her husband. Azula deserves sympathy because she's a child and literally has never had a chance to be better, and maybe as an adult, she would choose to never get better, maybe she would decide to only lash out more, but that isn't set in stone. 

Also, Azula does hold dangerous viewpoints. She doesn't respect the Earth Kingdom as she should and only believes others' fear can get her any respect. She doesn't value human life for the sake of it asi i think she struggles to view people outside of the way she’s been taught to keep herself safe and receive praise from her father. Perfection and control matter more than other peoples lives.  That is dangerous, that is so so dangerous, and we see it in her believing that you can burn the Earth Kingdom without that being wrong for causing pain or even just backfiring on the health of Fire Nation. But I don't believe that is set in stone to be something she can't unlearn. We know deconstruction of harmful beliefs is hard but possible. Deradicalization exists.

Asami, Jinora, Katara, Korra, Lin, Mai, Suki, Toph, Ty Lee. And the other Avatar women and girls deserve sympathy because they go through some major bullshit and violence at quite young ages. And when we learn to sympathise with different kinds of people in stories we can do so better in real life.

(and if you look through my blog you can see I think of all kinds of characters who deserve sympathy from slice-of-life dramas to the most complicated sci-fi narratives)

Ya know we don't have to downplay Zuko's trauma to recognize Azula's trauma!

You don't have to call Azula an abuser to recognize how Azula's trauma responses as a child affected Zuko!

Criticizing the lens of the show which is more sympathetic to Zuko's perspective than Azula's doesn't mean that you need to pretend Ozai want that bad or that Zuko had no hand in his own decision to turn his back on his father.

Zuko & Azula are both traumatized teenagers during ATLA and it's possible to sympathize and understand both of them.

They were both moulded by a father who only valued control and power. They were both affected by their mother who didn't really want to be there and left them. They were both indoctrinated from the womb with fire nation propaganda. They were both forced to grow up too early, in different ways, but neither of them got to be children past 14.

And no matter if you hate either one of them. Ever pretending Ozai wasn't abusive to both parties is just abuse apologia/denialism and that's a bad look. You don't have to like characters to not dismiss abuse which effects real victims.