#AZGSC

[im-totally-not-an-alien]

Time traveler Cloud au but he didn't actually time travel. I mean he did he just didn't go as far back as he was supposed to.

Also he's in the wrong dimension.

AZGS think they've finally found their C after he went missing two years ago, but why won't he talk to them?

Cloud is just thinking, 'Man, these guys really wanna catch me don't they? I haven't even blown anything up yet!'

[isaaclaforeze-remade]

i hate how both clerith stans and cloti stans make cloud out to be like.... aggressively straight. like... this man crossdressed with almost no prompting. he is gay

[cateringisalie]

My list of bearable Binal Bantasy VII tags is thinning...

But seriously. Being skeptical of Tifa’s narration of past events is not without merit. By the time the Lifestream scene rolls around she has been through three comas and some grevious injuries. The Lifestream scene is as revelatory for her as it is for Cloud.

The new assertion she was in any way actually friends with Cloud is not only in conflict with the OG’s portrayal but counter to Cloud’s development, her development, the growth of their relationship as adults and why (in general) people have them stay together post game.

Its unnecessary, frustrating and further damaging Tifa’s character who is spinning off further from who she was.

That Tifa and Cloud were not actually childhood friends does not mean they do not have a relationship in FFVII. It does not mean they cannot be together. Tifa “falling in love” with Cloud at the water-tower does not for a second make their later relationship any more meaningful.

All this new ship information does is make the relationship have longer longevity than previously assumed. As if whichever relationship has lasted longer is betterer and stronger. As if this should automatically undercut any other relationship Cloud or Tifa can possibly experience.

(in fact - and darkly cynically - this feels a lot more like enforcing that Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith operate in near exactly the same way. The pairs fall in love in record time (two years prior to the Nibelheim incident both times as far as I’m ware), the boys go missing and the girls never move on with their lives. I get the boys have gone missing without a shred of explanation or closure, but now for both of them people are willing to wipe out a quarter of their lives waiting. Teenagers are resilient you know? They will be inconsolable if this happened but they would bounce back a lot faster and cleaner than they would expect. The approval of the never moving on this is purely to keep the shipping uncomplicated. There can only be one pairing for Tifa, there can only be one pairing for Aerith. And if you think otherwise you’re wrong in canon. And who wants to write or read about a non-canon ship? Unless its yaoi/yuri in any case. I am so tired)

Childhood friends incidentally is not, however much some insist, a common trope of the series - unless you stretch it a fair amount and it encompasses a trivial number of the pairings. And none of the big ones (you know; Squall/Rinoa or Tidus/Yuna).

Could Tifa do with more backstory? Of course. Did Tifa’s mother deserve a name? Absolutely! But not like this. Not when Cloud helping round up cats in Remake is now tied to finding Tifa’s cat in a new authored backstory. This speaks again to the constant magpie-ing of existing imagery and moments from older parts of FFVII to feed the present. The retconning in of importance by changing the meaning of otherwise unimportant moments.

Tifa is not and never was under any obligation to like Cloud as a child. She did not bully him, but neither should she expected to involve him in anything she did. I understand the book has muddied this gloriously, but for what effect?

I mean, I know where the desperation to make Cloud and Tifa childhood friends stems from. I know why you want Cloud to have fallen in love with Tifa at like age 5 or something and for Tifa to fall in love with him at 13. And I rail against it all the time that its not necessary. Being first does not mean better.

Maybe I am old, cynical and exhausted, but I kind of like watching Cloud and Tifa grow closer in FFVII. I like watching Cloud and Aeris grow closer in FFVII. I like to experience these things where I can... experience them? I don’t like reading books which assert things in blunt statements that clarify exactly what the writer intended. I certainly don’t have the patience to wait for a later book to clarify what happened on-screen when I have drawn my own conclusions based on my preferences. Especially as this is all contributing to that continued sense that the OG is a smelly, badly designed embarrassment we would rather tiday away for the crime of being graphically inferior (never mind it was championed on its looks on release) and “goofy” (and apparently unable to run the gamut of emotions I remember from serious to comedy, to silly, to tragic, to pessimistic and quietly optimistic and moving).

I’m coming back to this point to stress it - I want to see the relationship growth. Remake gave me that for Aerith and Cloud even if the details aren’t to my taste. First meeting is awkward because hey, random stranger/Cloud is tired. Cloud gets involved and spends more time with Aerith. And the high-five thing is used as a clumsy/awkward/eh but clear metaphor for how their relationship develops over the course of their time together.

To the point that yes, it makes sense for Cloud to want to rescue her. Less sense for Elmyra and Tifa to be “Well they might not vivisect her” and then delay for two full chapters, but the whole thing flows.

And here’s where I get accused of being a fake fan: I don’t like how Cloud and Tifa’s relationship develops in Remake. Flirting. Tifa being mildly fazed by Cloud claiming its been five years. Scared when he almost kills Johnny. Maybe hurt depending on your resolution scene (hey podcast people! No Gold Saucer multiple dates because too expensive? How are there branched resolution scenes in Remake then?). But there isn’t growth. They seem to fit into each other’s lives without worry, bit of flirting, strange super-intense moments jammed into inappropriate sequences (the train roll, climbing the plate, Cloud remembering the promise unprompted, Tifa not actually engaged with Avalanche’s plans). There’s no sense anything has changed between them, the missed five years has done anything to them.

And I’m sure some would take this as proof of correctness. But... somehow Remake is better for realism despite a lot of new clumsy, but this relationship is not dinged for being implausible? No way does that five year gap not seriously impact any prior relationship to say nothing of developing from scratch.

See this was a neat thing about the OG; while Tifa seemed to have an edge over Aerith by knowing Cloud longer, he was in effect meeting them at the same point in his life and more or less starting from scratch with both. Both ships are valid, and even if Cloud is with Tifa come the end, it doesn’t mean he can’t have romantic feelings about both women.

Oh, but Nojima has changed his mind/always intended it this way. And? I can change my mind about liking what he’s written - and my patience and tolerance of Nojima has waned massively since 1997. To the point where his involvement invokes a pained groan from me.

Plus the hilarious attitude that this is from the same people who insisted “the OG will always be there, stop moaning about Remake”. Well guess what? I don’t like Remake and I don’t really want it around. The OG is better.

Yes, Tifa is under-served and sure, it could be clearer about shipping (but the apparent hostility to ambiguity and personal interpretation is deeply distressing. These things can mean something to you and don’t have to mean the same thing to everyone. Interpreting the romancs - again - not a competition).

BUT

I will take the OG version of Tifa where she believed in the cause, where she had friends (again, yes, the relationship between Tifa and the rest of Avalanche is not well depicted, but it was better than actively curtailing it), where she ran a bar THAT ACTUALLY OPENED AND SERVED CUSTOMERS, where she hated Shinra, where she didn’t know how to treat Cloud because she had only really talked to him once in her life and DESPITE THAT that they great closer and spent their last night before THE END OF THE WORLD together over the Remake.

Where Tifa is wary of Cloud for about 5 seconds, twice and then defaults to constant flirting. Where Cloud is near smothering Tifa every second they’re together and she doesn’t tell him to fuck off once. Where she’s allied with Avalanche but hates their methods (and the pacifists are in a shop around the corner and she is not with them because...?). Where she has some absurd contrived plot about medical bills and buying Seventh Heaven for Barret and Marlene.

Which would lead to a whole other rant titled “Marle is the Worst” but this has dragged on quite long enough.

But seriously; if you argue that we can’t hate Remake because OG is always there, then you have to stop applying Remake back to OG and using it as proof. Which is exactly why many people bemoaned the Remake at all. OG is one thing, Remake is another. I don’t care for the latter.

And I know if anyone does read all this it will be about the meanie Cleriths who diminish Tifa for no good reason. And yes, they are indeed acting in bad faith. But what makes you think for a second evidence will convince these people?

In particular, the argument has raged so long and always will because if people do not like a ship they will not accept it as canon (if they care about this as a factor) NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. Literally. Look at Loki if you want the most recent example of this.

Canon is to many “what I want” and often does not tally with the general interpretation. And you know, if being “canon” or guessing right early wasn’t triumphed as such a vital thing, we might not get these really terrible and pointless arguments.

Canon is a prize but here’s the big secret: fandom - in general - does not care. FFVII is an excellent case example given Sefikura overwhelms the other ships (and I think AZGSC is close?). And that’s not canon. That’s not even in the ballpark of the Cloud/Tifa vs Cloud/Aerith arena (even give that the former is roughly twice the size of the latter, you already won, so please stop?). Canon is only important if you think its important - and you get some more official art of sequences you can gif. And maybe you get kissing/implied sex/marriage/kids, but most of all you get a smug sense of superiority. And the last is why I have no patience with this.

[mekatrio]

writing be so good then BAM theyre a fucking azgsc shipper

[nautilusopus]

cateringisalie replied to your post: cateringisalie replied to your post: ...

Everyone wants to win is all I can figure out. The prize is canon and it must be theirs. Despite that the *more popular* ships couldn’t be canon if they tried and they don’t worry about this at all (so. admittedly that flings things into the AZGSC pit which has well known issues as well)

like, the most popular of my april fools fic set by far was the c///la///c///k one. not even a contest. i'm not an expert since i'm boring as fuck and just go with whatever's canon but i thought the point of shipping had nothing to do with canon and more with a specific interest in the relationship? and not like... being right? but what the fuck would i know

[cateringisalie]

#4 & #19 for the Salty asks

#4 - Do you have a NoTP in your fandom? Are they a popular OTP?*

For FFVII this would be Zerith. Also Rufus/Tifa, Tseng/Aerith, AZGSC and a handful of others. This is where I hastily note that the former is one that got burned out of my over time. Some of which is for:

#19 - What is the one thing you hate most about your fandom?

@auncyen and @tofucasserole both asked this too, so one hate per answer:

The wholesale acceptance of stripping Aerith of near all of her character traits and assigning them to Zack or deriving them from him or his actions. This is absolutely an issue with the Compilation writing as it went on, but the fandom has not only embraced it but decided to perpetuate and exacerbate the situation.

Please. Do. Not.

Let Aerith be her own character. The reveals in Crisis Core are more about cementing Zack into the world given he has shaky footing and all of three people actually remember he existed than a deep insight into Aerith.

Fandom is more than capable of rejecting canon; there’s a reason Last Order is harder to get at now.

[cateringisalie]

9, 19

9 - Most disliked character(s)? Why?

It’s Zack but not for any good reasons. I mean, I don’t like President Shinra or Hojo or Tseng or most of the Shinra executives, but then they are supposed to be villains of varying degrees.

But Zack bugs me. He used to be fine. A side-character who sketched in a plot-hole and filled out the world some more. But his rise to prominence and the continued focus on him leaves me cold. See also the terrible things his continued development does to Aerith’s character. See how his prominence impacts Cloud. And that people still want him as the protag, still want him to survive (and seem to have gotten that), but Aerith? Oh, she has to die otherwise the world is doomed. Can’t say I’m at all happy about this mindset.

19 - What is the one thing you hate most about your fandom?

@brokengem and @tofucasserole asked this too (you allll know I have salt), so another hate here:

Demonisation of Aerith and/or Tifa. Sometimes its both (and sometimes its literally every female character in the setting(!)), but usually its one or the other based on shipping preferences. And that it can’t be simply a preference. No, we need huge elaborate and mis-characterising essays on why the other woman is not only not who you want to wind up with Cloud but is either *checks notes* a manipulative harpy or *blinks* an abusive controlling monster.

Please. Stop.

The lack of empathy towards Tifa is really disheartening. Plus I really don’t get this notion that her not telling Cloud the truth makes her awful when if she did... Cloud would break down sooner and most of the game would not occur. This feels... silly. Plus I seem to understand its unwittingly the right call in these situations. Plus she’s had an emphatically terrible life with the death of both parents, injuries at the reactor, having to get her life together in the aftermath and then help Avalanche.

The demonisation of Aerith by contrast is deeply strange. The arguments arising out of the Remake regarding her rather minor obstacle course to discourage Cloud sneaking out and her attempts to high five Cloud rank rather low on the “Terrible things people have done in relationships”. The latter also seems to miss Cloud later initiating the high five? We did play the same Remake?

But Aerith as an abusive stalker, whose sole interest in Cloud is as a replacement for Zack had some takers prior to Remake too, just now they have weird evidence that is just nonsense.

You can like Cloti, you can like Clerith. You can like Aerti or Clarity. You can like AZGSC or whatever. But shipping something at no point requires you to provide why you don’t ship something else/you don’t need to demonize the other to make yours viable.