#ALSO on the spectrum does not necessarily mean no attraction so please don't make that assumption!!

[faradaykay]

do you guys want to see my p5 aroace opinions... (everyone says no) okay since you guys insist i'll show you :))

[thekatebridgerton]

Thoughts on a queer Bridgerton? I'd love for Benedict to be bi (he can still end up with a woman! That's a thing bi guys can do!) but for them to give him that at some point in his season. And Eloise gives off *major* queer vibes on the show (honestly, in the books too), and maybe they could have her get with Marina instead of Phillip - which would be interesting given the Colin history. What do you think? Do you think there could be a queer Bridgerton?

Well you did ask... And I really hope this reply doesn't offend anybody.

I actually partially answered an ask similar to this, weeks ago. Go check it out, I'll maybe do a little copy paste somewhere here.

Just know this is my personal take and I don't speak for everyone here.

Because out of respect for the character in question, unless explicitly stated by Chris Van Dussen, Julia Quinn or Shonda Rhimes, I try to never make assumptions about someone's standing in the gay, bi, lesbian, pan, ace, demi spectrum of orientations. Which can be a lot more complicated than just gay vs not gay debate people seem to think it is.

Personally I HC all the Bridgertons as are either bi, pan, or demi. Since their endgame in the books is a male-female pairing. And that's been cannon for years.

Still that that doesn't mean the characters don't have same sex attraction or same sex exes. It just means their true love is of the opposite sex. Which doesn't necessarily make them heterosexual.

I don't know about my followers but that's my personal HC. And I'm sticking to it. Unless Julia or Shonda or Chris comes out and explicitly says someone is heterosexual. They're all Bi-Pan-Demi

Also I'm going to copy paste what I said in the post I linked, If you know me in this blog, you know I am way too attached to Sophie and Phillip to wish for Benedict or Eloise’ sexuality to be 100% attraction to their same gender.

Just as a lot of people don't like Phillip and Sophie, simply because they wish Benedict to be gay and Eloise to lesbian (I'm not saying that's you anon, I'm saying that I've been on Twitter and read the comments). I want to keep cinderSophie and I also want to keep plant daddy Phillip in the narrative, I want to see them falling inlove with El and Ben.

So it's in my very greedy self interest for them to remain at least partially attracted to the opposite gender.

I like Philip, I like him with Eloise, and I like him as a standalone character. Not everyone does. That's okay. For all I know he's a bisexual king too. (I don't know what he did during his plants expeditions okay!) I adore Sophie, her story, her strength, it's amazing Sometimes I think Sophie is super Pan because of the way she grew up. But that's neither here nor there

Please know that I'm not trying to offend anyone, those of you who want Benedict and Eloise to be gay are just as valid. If you want your favorite characters to be attracted to their same gender, it doesn't make you a bad person, go for it, your HC may become cannon in the show for all I know. In this post I'm just stating my personal opinion and my preference.

I don't know what storylines will change for season 3 or what will be added to the Bridgerton stories in the future.

The possibilities remain open and wonderful. And that's the Darjeeling tea

Ps: Marina? Really? Are you sure anon? So many possibilities for Lesbian Eloise and You really want to see Eloise and Marina's personalities come together in a relationship?.. Those two so incompatible. I mean... Okay, you go you do. I guess.

[bisluthq]

Hey! I'm fairly new here and I have a pretty uncommon take on Kaylor. But I just wanna start off by saying I try my best to be as supportive of LGBT people as possible and if they're both bisexual, then I would be 100% okay with that! I'm not trying to "defend their heterosexuality" or anything, I think that's really weird

Okay, so my personal theory is that Kaylor did happen, but that Taylor and Karlie are both straight. I know that might sound contradictory, but I say this based on my own personal experiences based on how I am with my best friend. I think Karlie and Taylor's relationship might have been similar in some ways to ours

Right, so I'm straight and I'm not into women in the gay kind of way (but it's completely cool that some girls are), and I have this roommate who's gorgeous. Really gorgeous, she's like a 10/10 "I would sell my kidney to look like you" kind of girl. She's very attractive, she has like tan skin and long legs and gorgeous brown hair and pretty eyes and nice lips and just like… she's just very good looking. I'm definitely jealous of her body, I won't even pretend I'm not 😪 I lowkey hate her because of it (jk)

We've been living together since not long before COVID started, and we're very good friends. There were three of us before, but our other roommate went back home to stay with her parents until in person classes are back on and we agreed to it and worked something out because she has really bad anxiety so we understood her reasoning for it

Anyway so it's just been us two and because we've been at home a lot during this time instead of out for most of the day like before, we've gotten to know each other a lot better and have become a lot closer. We were already friends from before, but now we're like super close besties, we've been hanging out a lot together and playing board games, watching movies, helping each other with essays, just having long conversations about anything and everything, etc

Like it's been so nice having a best friend that I can be this close to now because I haven't had a best friend since I was a kid

So my friend and I were having like a conversation last year about how hard it's been in quarantine not being able to go on dates and how we miss kissing people, and so we decided to just like, make out for fun you know. I mean, there's not really anything that's inherently romantic or sexual about making out, that's just society that says that. But tbh I think making out with your friends if you want to should be normalized, it's fun and it can even be emotional sometimes. It's not that different from hugging people

After a couple of weeks or so, I think we got bored of just making out with each other and decided to like, fully hook up. It started off because we were modelling lingerie for each other for banter and were pretending we were each other's runway judges and then I think we just decided to hook up with each other as like part of the whole "game". I can't remember who initiated it now, I think it might have been me as a joke lol

Like just in a platonic way for fun, as a kind of substitute until we can go back into society

And tbh I always expected hooking up with a woman to be like mediocre and boring and awkward, but although it was a bit hard to get the hang of at first and there was a learning curve, it's actually very enjoyable. Like I was very surprised actually at how hot it can be, I think I can maybe see why bisexual women and lesbians like doing it

Anyway we both liked it and we just carried on hooking up on the regular and it's been like 8 months now and tbh I just think it's very sweet and heartwarming, like it actually makes me feel a little emotional how we're close enough and care about each other enough that we can even help each other out with the physical intimacy side of things so that we don't get sexually frustrated while we're stuck in lockdown

I just think it's really cool and we even sleep in the same bed most of the time now because tbh what's the point in sleeping alone when you can sleep in the same bed as someone else? It's nicer, like you can cuddle and stuff

Anyway, I think that maybe Kaylor's relationship might have been similar. I think they're both straight but they became really close friends in a short space of time, and that their friendship was so intense that it became physical but in a platonic way

I think lesbians and bisexual women are amazing and I have so much respect for you guys for accepting yourselves in a society that tries to erase you, and I think there definitely needs to be more wlw representation on TV and in movies

But at the same time, I would also like there to be more close female friendships like the one that me and my friend have where you can just talk about everything together and do things that society usually reserves for romantic partners, but in a platonic way. Because female friendship is really important and beautiful, whether that's between straight women like me and my friend who I think is probably straight too, or between queer women because one thing I've learnt during my short time on this blog is how queer women can have very close platonic friendships with other queer women too

I think society just has overly strict ideas of "straight" and "gay". Like for some people, they would hear about two women sleeping together and think "Oh that's gay", but not necessarily because straight women can enjoy sleeping with other women too, like it's normal 🤷‍��️

I think it's just a result of women being a lot more physically beautiful than men are, like straight women really got the short end of the stick tbh compared to straight men

I also think it's because women are so oversexualized in the media, and obviously straight girls see that too and so we sort of internalize that attraction to women because we're so used to seeing women being presented in a sexual way? Except it's not real attraction with us like how it is for queer girls

Like I'm very much "attracted" to my friend, she's genuinely stunning and just very hot tbh. But I still identify as straight because it's just a case of what I mentioned above, it's a "fake" attraction. And also because men are afraid to compliment other men because it's seen as "gay", but women can be fully confident in their sexuality and still recognize other women's beauty and sex appeal. You see it all the time in instagram comments, and I really love how we're all so supportive of each other like that

Like I can be fully confident in my sexuality and yet still say that some women like my friend are gorgeous as hell and also 100 times better looking than most men I've seen. I'm very much obsessed with some women's appearances but in a platonic way

And I just love the concept of "girl crushes" and I think that from a feminism viewpoint, it's beautiful that we're focusing on other girls and showing love towards other girls too, instead of just to men who, let's be real, don't even fully appreciate it half of the time

I am going to be sad when we all have to return to life as usual and my friend and I won't be able to spend as much time together anymore. I'm dreading it tbh, I don't want it to end yet. And it really sucks that the physical side of our friendship will probably have to stop too once our other roommate comes back because I think she'd definitely misunderstand the situation and think it's something different than it actually is if she ever saw us kissing or something. I really am going to miss it a lot though, I really like how things currently are and it's just really really nice and I don't want it to change :/

Btw I'm sorry if I sounded fetishistic or offensive with any of this, I just get a bit jealous sometimes that you guys get to date girls and we're just stuck with men. Honestly if it wasn't for all of the homophobia and the struggles that you all have to face and the fact that it would feel disrespectful to the LGBT community, I would probably really wish I could change my sexuality to be bisexual or gay instead because I just think women are better. Sometimes I really do wish I was into women in that way because dating girls just sounds so much more appealing to me (in a non fetishizing weird way) but unfortunately I'm stuck with dating men 🤦‍♀️ But I also know I'm lucky and privileged to be straight even though most men are mediocre and kinda gross and I don't mean to be disrespectful because I know you all have to face homophobia and other LGBT difficulties and it really sucks, people are awful. There's nothing wrong with women dating women or men dating men at all, society is just ugly and bigoted

Anyway, does anybody else have a similar sort of take on Kaylor where they think they could have both been straight and just had a very close friendship with a physical side to it? I think it would explain a lot. But like I said, this is just a theory of mine based on my own situation, and I'm also open to the idea that it was an actual relationship and that they're both into women for real, not just fake "into women" like I am.

Also pls feel free to call me out if I accidentally said anything offensive towards LGBT people, I tried my best but if I made a mistake anywhere pls let me know and I'll avoid it next time!

You’re not offensive. Please stop apologizing. And we’re gonna come back to the Kaylor stuff another time because... Honey. You and I need to have a conversation for a bit.

So firstly, I’m not trying to like “diagnose” you and at the end of the day it’s your choice what you want to call yourself but... tbh you might not be straight. Sexuality is fluid not static and exists on a spectrum not in absolutes. It’s not like it’s straight, 50/50 bi, gay and you’re born knowing and there’s no room for anything else. That’s not true. There’s a lot of room in between all of these and labels can change over time. We’re people, not cereal brands, and sometimes we don’t even KNOW the word for what we might be. I’m tagging a tag for you from when we asked people to share their label journeys for you to see. It’s not simple or easy and it’s not just because of external stuff - it’s because figuring this out internally is HARD. If you found yourself having such an intense friendship it became physical, repeatedly, you liked it a lot, you still sleep in the same bed and continue to share all your thoughts and you don’t want any of that to end... I’m not sure you’re Kinsey 0. And I think you might lowkey have a girlfriend dude. 

You can obviously prefer men but like... hun I reaaallly don’t think you’re completely straight.

Also: it’s okay to say “I see myself winding up with a man and this is a situationship for right now!” but that doesn’t make you straight because again, sexuality is a spectrum and you can manifest a particular kind of endgame while experiencing other things along the way.

But here’s where you really got me: “most men are mediocre and kinda gross” and “women being a lot more physically beautiful than men are, like straight women really got the short end of the stick tbh compared to straight men” because that’s the kind of thing I used to say in my Bi 1.0 era before I ID’d as a lesbian for a bit and before Harry Styles (KING 🥺) made me bi for real. Hun, no. Straight women like men. Tbh BI women like men. I genuinely, unironically, find Harry and Timmy and Matt Smith to be sexy beasts and I would do dirty things to the former two but maybe not the latter irl in 2021 but yes also him if I could be on that Spain trip with him and Karen where they got sloshed and which I think of often. These men are genuinely fucking beautiful to me in the same way Taylor is and Di Silvers is (okay she’s prettier than all of them but like same ~vibe) and like Megan Thee Stallion is and Indira Varma in everything but especially GOT and Gillian Anderson and Keira Knightley. Like those women are HOT to me and SO. ARE. THE. MEN. 

Straight women find SO MANY DUDES hot. So many. Starting from objectively pretty options I just cannot personally understand like Chris Evans all the way through to bitches who are outchea simping for wrestlers and Cole Sprouse. Do I understand? No. But like... that’s straight girl culture and ours is not to judge. 

If you’re struggling to find men hot then... you might be gay.

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “fake attraction”. Like queer women - especially femme women which I assume you very much are - experience the same kinds of feelings straight girls do. We have women we want to be like and look like and find enviable (me and Oenone Forbat) and women we find aesthetically gorgeous (me and Anya Taylor Joy) and we have extremely close female friends who we can spend hours on end spilling our guts to - as you say female friendships are truly special - and without going into personal people that you don’t know, that’s me and Cam and Sim right? I literally talk to them for hours. Like those are not gay feelings. And yes we can chat about those kinds of feelings with straight girls and call them “girl crushes” and not immediately get “caught out” because they experience this exact shit too.

But here’s the thing. They never do and I don’t want in the cases above to fuck these women. It’s not sexual.

The moment I can actually imagine fucking the women in question that’s... gay. 

Like it’s not “fake attraction” it’s literally just gay. That’s how we desire women. We want to fuck them. Not all women. Not always. But sometimes we want to get under or on top of one and just really truly fucking make each other moan with pleasure.

I have no idea if Karlie or Taylor are into women. They could both literally be straight. I have no idea.

But I have a better idea about you.

Hun, you’re fucking your roommate/best friend and don’t want to stop.

You’re not “into women”.

You’re into this woman.

And possibly into women more generally.

So I know it’s weird to have to be the one to tell you this, and if you want to keep chatting via anon or in my DMs or if you want me to try collate resources for you from around the web but...

Like.

Dude.

You’re a whole ass part of the rainbow.

Welcome to the community you thought you weren’t a part of earlier today 🌈 ❤️

It’s nice here, sure there’s homophobia, but at least we get to fuck girls and man is it good.

[ply-space-archived]

since tumblr blessed us with pinned posts i figured it would be appropriate to write a kind of overview of this blog

What is this blog?

This blog is intended to connect, uplift, and celebrate polysexuals and polyromantics. It is NOT a discourse blog, but a blog for positivity, art, and conversation.

the ply flag

What is polysexuality/polyromanticism?

Polysexuals and polyromantics are attracted to multiple genders, but not necessarily all. Polysexuality and polyromanticism are NOT the same thing as polyamory.

How is that different from being bi?

A ply person could be attracted to one binary gender and nonbinary genders, but not the other binary gender, and thus not feel like bi describes them. But a ply person could also fully qualify to identify as bi, but choose not to - honestly, picking one mspec label over another often comes down to taste. There are also ply people who do identify as bi simultaneously - such as myself!

Why is it abbreviated to ply?

The abbreviation 'poly' is already used by polynesians to refer to themselves (polyamorous is shortened to polyam)

What's multisexual/multiromantic/mspec?

The multi spectrum is an umbrella term that unites all people who are attracted to more than one gender, such as bi, pan, ply, and omni people. This blog stands for mspec solidarity and supports non-ply mspecs. We do NOT approve of infighting.

the mspec flag

Alternatively, mspec people are sometimes called pluralian

Pluralian: someone who embraces their attraction to multiple genders fully

the pluralian flag

What's monosexism?

Monosexism is the oppression of mspec people on the basis of being attracted to multiple genders (e.g. biphobia, panphobia).

Can i be ply if i'm bi/gay/ace/aro/polyam/other identity?

Of course! You can be ply and any other queer identity at the same time. No one can stop you. (Yes, this is me saying i support mspec lesbians)

Can i be ply if i'm not same gender attracted?

You absolutely can, in fact many people who previously identified as straight start identifying as ply out of respect for their nonbinary partners.

Can i be ply if i'm cis/not nonbinary?

The owner of this blog is cis, so, sure.

Can i follow if i'm not ply/not sure if i am ply?

Yes! All allies and questioning people are welcome.

What does this blog stand for?

Radical inclusion and queer liberation ✊🏻✊🏼✊🏽✊🏾✊🏿

the queer chevron

Can i ask a dumb question?/I don't mean to be rude, but i'm wondering...

This blog is a safe space to express any of your thoughts and questions about polysexuality/polyromanticism, as long as it's done in good faith. Trolls and bullies will get blocked

Is it safe for minors to follow?

This blog is sfw, but does contain occasional swearing and discussions of heavy themes. The owner is an adult if that's something that makes you uncomfortable.

Can i suggest a post?

Go ahead.

Can i dm you?

Yes. I try to answer quickly, although different time zones make it a little difficult

You reblogged from someone who fits your dni, what's up with that?

This was likely an accident. Please report it to me so i can decide if i should take down the post

🗡️ Dni: TERFs, SWERFs, transphobes, biphobes, panphobes, nbphobes, transmeds, queerphobes, aphobes, SAM gatekeepers, anti-MOGAI, anti-mspec lesbians, exclusionists and assimilationists of any kind, racists, islamophobes, antisemites, cop apologists, ableists, fatphobes, kink critical types, proponents of cringe and cancel culture, and people looking to start fandom discourse.

Posts made by this blog or reblogged from @gardeninthevoid under #og post

Other tags to look out for:

signal boost

solidarity - posts about identities other than ply

polysexual / polyromantic - posts specifically for people who are one but not another

mspec / mspec solidarity / bi pan solidarity - posts about other mspec identities and unity between us

ply women / ply men / ply nbs / wlw / wlnb / mlm / mlnb / nblw / nblm / nblnb

non sga - posts for ply people who aren't attracted to their own gender

mspec lesbian

diamoric

omni / abro - posts highlighting omnisexuality, omniromanticism, abrosexuality, and abroromanticism, which are often forgotten about

You might wanna block if you don't want to deal with negativity: #tw exclusionism, #tw negativity, #tw terfs

YOU'RE ALL VALID AND I LOVE YOU ALL VERY MUCH 🌷

[deadmomjokes]

Hello, I hope I don't bother you with this question (for I don't know anyone who I could ask this to). Does being asexual mean you cannot haveµ any kind of sexual desires beyond wanting to please another? I don't care about anything sexual in a relationship and tends to feel icky about it. But it has happened that with the right person it felt kinda ok to try something sexual (it still felt...weird? to me). Does this mean I'm ace or would it be better to use the term demisexual? Thank you :)

Not a bother at all, and I’m sorry it took me so long to get to it, I just wanted to have the time to answer it thoroughly.

I must start with a disclaimer that I’m no expert on sexuality and asexuality, I just know what my own journey and experience have been like, and I have done research of course. So that’s the obligatory ‘grain of salt’ bit.

Being asexual means, in simple terms, you don’t feel sexual attraction to another person. It’s hard for me to explain, because I’m asexual so I don’t know what it’s like to experience real sexual attraction like non-asexual people do, but what I understand is this: Someone who is not ace can, sometimes or frequently, see another person and feel the desire to engage in some sort of physical intimacy with them, whether the thought is conscious or not. They get physically aroused, meaning the sexual response cycle is initiated in their bodies, as a result of or signal of this attraction. (Sorry if this sounds weirdly scientific, it’s the best way I can talk about this stuff.) Asexual people do not feel this attraction, or if they do, it’s rare and in specific circumstances.

Asexual people sometimes have no desire for sexual contact or intimacy, and sometimes they, as you said, have the desire to please their partner, or share in emotional intimacy. But also note that libido/sex drive isn’t the same as attraction, so some asexual people still desire sexual stimulation, they just don’t feel attraction toward other people (or they do in specific circumstances). So some aces like sex and desire it because it feels good physically.

The term demisexual tends to overlap with some definitions of asexuality, which look at asexuality (correctly, in my opinion) as a spectrum of experience. Demisexual means that you experience sexual attraction sometimes or rarely, but only toward someone you have an emotional connection with.  But some definitions of asexuality say “someone who doesn’t or rarely experiences sexual attraction,” so there it is kind of the same thing.

What you describe sounds, to me, like you’re experiencing sexual desire as a form of emotional closeness and intimacy, and maybe for personal pleasure, but that attraction isn’t necessarily something that’s there most of the time, if at all. To me, I’d say that’s asexuality. BUT, the great thing about exploring and discovering your sexuality is that you get to choose whichever label you feel fits you best. There are no Ace Police who will study your case and revoke your Ace Card because in their opinion “Demi” fits you better. Demisexuality falls under the umbrella of Asexuality, so it’s really all about what you feel fits you best.

For a while, I identified as demisexual because I, like you, felt kinda okay with sexual things with the right person. But something about it always felt a bit off to me, and I’ve found that I more closely identify with the label of asexuality. I find it easier to say I’m ace and leave it at that than going through the laundry list of qualifiers: “sex favorable asexual who sometimes experiences attraction but only to the spouse and engages in physical intimacy as a means of emotional expression, who is sex-repulsed by external depictions of physical intimacy beyond kissing (and sometimes that too depending on the day).” I also just feel more connected to the term, and the asexual experience.

But that’s just me tho. If demisexuality is freeing for you, and you feel like that’s your descriptor, then that’s awesome, and you’re Demi! But what you’re describing sounds fundamentally like a lack of sexual attraction, so if you’re looking for (for lack of a better term) permission to be asexual, then by golly you’ve got it and you’re Ace!

I hope that some of this has been helpful, and that it makes sense. (I’m writing this right before bed after a long day, so I can really only hope at this point, and I’m sorry if it goes off on tangents.) If I missed anything in your question, or if you have follow-up questions, please let me know! Thank you so much for feeling comfortable to reach out to me, and I have to apologize again for my reply taking so long. Life gets kind of wild sometimes, but I’m just glad that you felt like coming to me. :)

[demiromantic-official]

I've only ever been vaguely aware of the term demisexual, and after a friend mentioned that some of the stuff I say sounded demi, I looked into and I think I definitely am, but now it feels like a videogame where I got one answer that suddenly unlocked a ton more questions to ask. Does this mean I belong to a community now? I don't feel like I do? How do I tell my family? How do I tell potential partners? Does this mean there's more specific advice for dating? I'm both elated and scared now.

I can understand the confusion, I’ll try to help as best as I can.

1.  Does this mean I belong to a community now?

Yes. Everyone person on the asexual spectrum belongs in the asexual community, and despite what exclusionists say, demi people belong in the LGBT+ as well. There’s people who try to exclude microlabels because “the community is about who you’re attracted to and not which circumstances”, but that’s nonsense. The people who say that are often people who exclude trans people and nonbinary people who don’t experience dysphoria, so don’t listen to them.

Whether you feel like participating or not is up to you. Personally, I’m mostly active online but that’s because where I live, I haven’t found any active ace community. 

2. How do I tell my family?

That’s a good question. I’ve not told my family, since I’m not sure they’d understand the need for such a label, considering that as a Christian, I’ve not been expected to focus much on sexual attraction anyway, so bringing it up seems a bit weird even though it makes my experience different than even the most devout and ‘pure’ Christians.

However, I can suggest that if your parents also are not so used to microlabels or the LGBT+ community in general, to start out by hinting that you aren’t often attracted to people or something similar that describes being demi without using the word. I’ve done something similar back in high school when my mom still asked occasionally if there were any cute boys at school, by saying that there were none in my class and that I never noticed anyone not in my class. You could bring it up in a similar situation so it’s not random. Depending on how they react, you could say, “My friend mentioned this word that describes my experiences”. 

Again, I don’t have experience with that myself, so if anyone does, please chime in!

3. How do I tell potential partners? 

I think that if you meet someone who respects you, you don’t necessarily need to tell the person that you date. Maybe it’s a bit different for me because I haven’t been in love with someone without having a bit of attraction, but imo as long as you’re clear about boundaries and state that you might not be ready for sex so soon, then it should be enough. A good partner would accept that you’re not ready without you having to explain that you like them, but aren’t attracted yet and that it’s not them, but rather how you are. If you do feel like telling them, then something like the previous line but more in depth may work, but again I haven’t really told the person I’m involved with beyond hinting that he’s the only one for me.

4. Does this mean there's more specific advice for dating?

As for dating, I do not have much advice that comes from experience as I haven’t really dated in the sense of going out with different people once or twice until I meet someone who clicks. My whole life has been more like a friends to lovers 100k slowburn. 

However, I would say something similar as I did with the previous question. Be clear about boundaries and about what you want or don’t want. Be unapologetic and don’t let yourself get guilt-tripped into something just because you went on three dates and the other person usually hooks up by that point. If a person is really the one for you, they’d not push you into sex. I know the culture today is that dating should involve hookups until you find the right person, but it doesn’t have to be; just make sure the other person does not expect that. 

If anyone else has experiences to share, please feel welcome!

[kae-karo]

hi! me again! i understand that bi/pan people with a preference would never be considered lesbians but i had it presented to me as being like bisexual homoromantic which would be as valid as being ace and homoromantic right? and i don't understand how A's id could affect or imply anything about B's id? like the acknowledgment of demigirls doesn't affects girls being fully girls? as far as pronouns isn't the whole point that they ARE gendered, otherwise we would all just be they/them? (1/2)

non queer people very much understand pronouns to indicate gender. so why is language malleable when it comes to redefining gender and pronouns but not when it comes to using orientation labels differently? also i read that carrd and want to clarify i would never make the argument that trans people aren't "really" the gender they id as. also, i'm sorry for asking so much but i'm just trying to understand.

--

hi dear! for context (x) and please don’t apologize for asking questions! there are so many people who would rather shut down and not try to understand, i will always greatly appreciate people who are actively trying to learn

also sorry this got wAY too long lmao i have a lot of thoughts, apparently...

as for the way the term bi/pan lesbian was presented to you, that’s totally understandable! and again, per my lil caveat, the idea of expressing a difference in romantic and sexual attraction with a single term (like being bi/pansexual but lesbian in terms of romantic attraction) is totally chill but i think the part that starts to come into question is the large movement of people who were using bi/pan lesbian in the way i described in my other post (ie as a way to express that they are “lesbian but with some attraction to men, still”)

in terms of how person A identifies and how that affects person B, the point is less about an individual interaction - no, how a stranger chooses to identify themself does not directly affect my identity. to your notion of demigirls and the fact that they don’t negate the identity of women, that’s totally true! it’s not so much that a person’s identity negates another’s, more that the words a person uses to identify themself can affect others, because we tie certain terms with certain experiences. by a group of people commandeering terminology that already has an experience tied to it, the people who already use that terminology (because they have that experience) can start to feel as though their experience and identity are being called into question

okay, so if bi/pan lesbians become a standard terminology to describe ppl who would id as lesbians if not for some attraction to men, that could start to bring into question whether all or any lesbians could be attracted to men (as the person in the tweet mentioned). now (certain) men may start to believe that any person who ids as a lesbian might still be attracted to men, so these certain men may think that they have a chance with that lesbian even though the man ids as a man! this could lead to harassment, or the lesbian in question may already be prone to some internalized homophobia. now they’re starting to wonder if their attraction should include men because they id as a lesbian (and apparently, lesbian could include attraction to men), or if they’ve just been ‘confused’, as people may have told them before, and they start to doubt their own identity and whether ‘lesbian’ is the right reflection of their experiences (which it is, except that the term has been hijacked and presented as including experiences that actually belong in the bi/pan community)

and, once again, the way the terminology is structured (a ‘bi/pan lesbian’) seems to imply that the person in question doesn’t want to be attracted to men. if they did, why not use an umbrella term like bi or pan as their identity? the only distinguishing feature here is that one is inclusive while the other says ‘i’m attracted to women primarily and would like to identify as a lesbian, except for that pesky bit of me that’s attracted to men too...’ again, this is a harmful ideology to let grow, not only for those already identifying as bi/pan but for baby queers who may not fully understand their own identities yet! or for people outside the community who are trying to understand to the best of their abilities as allies!

to that end, it also propagates that harmful rhetoric of ‘oof, doesn’t it suck to be attracted to men lmao’ like MAN that’s really hurtful to guys??? and that rhetoric already exists. notions like this (where a wonderful umbrella term is turned into something that seeks to minimize attraction to men/male-aligned genders) can be so harmful not only to cis men and transmasc/trans men who are a part of the community but men outside the community as well

okay with regards to pronouns: i think this is where we start to get into the deconstruction of gender as a social construct. i feel like the most apt analogy here is the one i provided in the other post: names. names have, throughout history, been gendered (for the most part). sally was a girl, timmy was a boy. but we’ve started to deconstruct that as we’ve started to recognize that there are more than 2 genders (as a societal whole, i’m aware that this hasn’t been news in a while for people in the queer community). you have names like alex, sam, riley, names that you can’t look at and go ‘ah, they are [certain] gender!’ which is awesome for everyone! esp for people who are sensitive about their gender identity and for whom it is bothersome, upsetting, or even triggering to be misgendered!

pronouns are grammatically just a substitute for a noun, they take the place of the noun for the sake of ease of speech/writing. so the first question here is why, if we’ve extrapolated and separated the idea of someone’s name from their gender and acknowledged that the thing that we refer to them by is just...a noise they like, then why is it necessary for pronouns (another thing that is just a noise the person likes) to be inherently tied to a gender? a gender is a representation of an experience, but people who use the same pronouns may have nothing in common in terms of their gender experience!

now, you could argue that people who use they/them pronouns may be able to rally around a shared experience/frustration with getting others to use and accept those pronouns, but they likely aren’t all going to share a gender - maybe some are fem-aligned, or masc-aligned, or genderfluid or agender or any other gender on the massive spectrum of possible gender identities. but the way that they ask others to refer to themselves purely as an individual does not help give any insight into their experiences or community! 

you stated that ‘as far as pronouns isn't the whole point that they ARE gendered?’, so my question here is what purpose do pronouns actually serve? they allow you to refer to a person without using their name, right? so if we’re talking outside the world of grammar, i would argue that a person’s pronouns are an extension of their name: the purpose of a name and/or pronouns is to ensure that they make the user of said name/pronouns comfortable in their identity when being referred to. they are whatever gender they are (if any at all) - they may choose a name and pronouns to help them feel more comfortable in who they are. in fact, they may choose a name and pronouns that they didn’t use from birth simply because they do not feel comfortable with them for non-gender-related reasons, too!

and i can hear you thinking ‘okay, so why can’t we do that with labels like sexuality and just let people use whatever feels okay?’ and this is sort of the way i think about it: there are certain words we have defined with clarity in order to help us as a community understand ourselves and each other. we all agree that cis = you are the gender you were assigned at birth, trans = you are not the gender you were assigned at birth. lesbian means attraction to women/fem-aligned genders, ace means feeling no sexual attraction, bi and pan are siblings of each other that define attraction to all genders (which may or may not include preferences). male and female as genders have clear enough meanings that we use them in our other definitions, and nonbinary is a lovely catch-all umbrella that can encompass anything outside ‘male’ and ‘female’, even though there are also more specific identities that fall under that umbrella

(quick aside - fwiw i don’t think gender definitions are necessarily malleable in the same way pronoun ‘definitions’ are, i think there are gender experiences that we have not yet given formal terms to and that people may switch around between existing gender identifying terms as they look for ones that get close to their own and i think there’s still a question of what it even means to be a certain gender without reference to other genders, but as it stands, people who identify with certain gender terms do so because of a set of shared experiences that fall underneath that gender term)

what we have not done is defined an individual’s right to their experiences. if someone feels attraction to all genders with a preference for men, there’s a word to express that! if a person feels like they might shift between a variety of genders on a regular basis, there’s a word for that! if a person does not feel romantic attraction, there’s a word for that! and the reason we use these words with pre-defined definitions is so that we can identify people who share our experiences - if someone identifies as a lesbian, they can seek out other lesbians and know that they are among a group that understands what they have been through or are going through. if someone experiences attraction to all genders with a female/fem-aligned preference, they are likely not going to find a community that understands their experiences if they look for people who identify as lesbian

but if a person decides that hey, i feel most myself when people call me ‘emma’ even though that wasn’t my assigned birth name, that is when we step back and say ‘yes, that’s awesome! you do you!’ because there is no pre-defined definition of that name - yes, there’s a societal gender often associated with it, but it doesn’t provide anyone any benefit to assign a definition of an experience to that name. nobody is out there going ‘where are all the ‘emmas’, the ‘emmas’ understand my experience and i want to find them so that i can feel as though i’m part of the ‘emma’ community’

now, idk about you, but if i hear that someone uses she/her pronouns, that means....almost nothing to me, except that i know that they prefer those pronouns! in the same way that someone saying ‘oh, my name is emma’ means nothing to me except that their name is emma! whereas if someone says to me, ‘i’m asexual’, i know from their choice of identifier that they fall under the ace umbrella and awesome, this person might understand how i feel about certain subjects! (obviously ace is a huge spectrum in itself, but you get the idea)

in summary:

an orientation or a gender relates to an individual’s experiences, and the general definitions we have assigned to certain orientations and genders should remain somewhat clearly-defined in order to provide a sense of community for those that fall under the orientation/gender in question. that is not to say that new orientations/gender terms can’t arise to describe new experiences that do not already have a definition. the irritation with the ‘bi/pan lesbian’ discourse is that the experience described (attraction to all genders with fem-aligned preference) already has a defined term (bi or pan) that is contradictory to the term ‘lesbian’

the reason pronouns don’t need to fall under a clear definition is that they are not a signal to indicate a uniting experience - their purpose and function is equivalent to that of a name: it’s a way to refer to a person that makes that person feel comfortable, and it’s perfectly fine not to have a rigid definition for pronouns in the same way that you wouldn’t assign a name to have a rigid experience or definition associated with it

i know it’s a long read, but i hope that helps clarify my thoughts on the matter!

[lululawrence]

Hi! I'm dinosaursmate's sexuality anon, I hope you don't mind me bothering you. I know things are kinda blowing up right now so please don't worry about responding asap. Could you maybe help me understand what the difference is between bisexual and pansexual? And if you have time, can you maybe explain the ace spectrum a little more in depth for me? I think I might be on the ace but idk what's really going on with me lol. Thank you for your help and I hope you're well 💕🌈💐

hello darling!  i defo don’t mind you “bothering” me hehe . this got incredibly long, so i’m putting it under the cut.

okay, so i have a hard time understanding pan because i feel like it is something that is hard to describe unless you feel it and identify as pan, and i don’t lol what i understand (and please someone kindly correct me if i’m wrong) is that when someone, like me, identifies as bisexual, you are sexually attracted to two genders.  i feel like the genders are in some way associated with the sexual attraction, like the physicality of it?  like i am a boob girl.  hard core.  all about the breasts.  i think they are beautiful and sexy and hot and damn i love them.  i also love how soft women can be.  that’s what attracts me to them.  for men, i’m about the shoulders, arms, and backs.  those just...yeah.  fabulous.  haha i like their shape!  so that’s why i identify as bi.  now, for pansexuals it is my understanding that the specific physical representation of the genders doesn’t really play as important a part as just the person being a person.  that gender doesn’t really define their sexual attraction to someone.  i’m sure there are still the physical aspects and physical preferences, but literally one of my pan friends once said, “i don’t give a fuck what gender you are.  if i find you hot, i find you hot.”  so...that’s what i got and i just shrugged and moved on.  haha  so this is a long way of saying since i don’t really fully understand it myself, if bi doesn’t feel like the right label for you but pan does, then awesome!  you identify as pan and what that means for you might be different from someone else and that’s okay.  it’s also okay if you identify one way and change your mind later.  sexuality is such a fluid thing and our understanding of ourselves is always changing, so our labels for ourselves could potentially change through the rest of our lives, should we even choose to use labels at all.

okay, ace spectrum!  this is where i know a bit more because i’ve had to do a lot more research in order to understand what it means in general as well as what it means for me specifically so i’ll do my best to help you with this part too.  

okay, so as you said it’s a spectrum and even on the spectrum there are terms that are more like umbrella terms too.  so there are people who are ace who are sex repulsed, aka they can’t even handle the thought and mention of sex without feeling uncomfortable about it.  there are those who are interested in the...how do i describe this...like the functionality of sex?  like how it works, why it’s enjoyable for people, etc but then once it’s time for them to experience it themselves they can’t handle that and therefore decide that while they don’t mind talking about it, reading about it, learning about it, and sometimes even watching it, it is just not for them to personally partake in.  for others it can manifest in that it doesn’t make them uncomfortable to partake in, but they don’t really enjoy it either.  this was me for a long time.  i didn’t really care either way.  i was just fine going 22 years without it and i would have been just fine to continue in that way, but then i got married and thought i was broken because i wasn’t enjoying sex and my husband thought he was just bad at it...but nope.  anyway, there are those who enjoy masturbation but don’t enjoy sex with others.  what it comes down to and how i try to explain it to others is we understand about sex, but don’t necessarily feel the attraction to sex.

and then we get to the gray ace part of things.  lol  the gray ace identity that i think people are most familiar with is demisexuality and i think more people actually identify as demi than people realize.  demisexuality is where you can and do feel sexual attraction to people, but only once a strong emotional bond has been formed.  it’s like a door has been unlocked, but again, this still depends on a number of other factors.  it’s not like people feel sexual attraction to everyone they are emotionally close to.  

now, when i was looking into asexuality, i was like yeah that’s me for sure at least in some way, but like...i do sometimes enjoy sex.  i do sometimes crave it and feel sexual attraction...but only sometimes.  what about that?  it doesn’t seem to have to do with emotional bond cause...yeah.  so what gives?  well i found that while you can just say gray ace because it’s that weird middle ground between total asexuality and allosexuality (aka anyone who doesn’t identify as ace) and be good with it, i wasn’t quite.  i wanted to know more, and that is when i learned about ace flux and ace spike.  so ace spike is where you kinda fall on the ace plane most of the time.  you don’t really feel sexual attraction, but sometimes you do, and when you do it is fast, it is strong, and it often leaves just as quickly, just like a spike in a heart monitor, yeah?  

ace flux, on the other hand, is kind of like a wavelength.  while i think most people’s sexual attraction and desire is like a wavelength that is constantly moving up and down, the kinda base zero is different for those who are ace flux.  this is how i identify, because sometimes i’ll go a couple weeks where i desire sex, though my desire is still far lower than my husband’s on a usual day lol.  sometimes it’ll be as short as a couple hours and sometimes longer to a few weeks at a time, but most of the time i hover around indifference.  sure, we could have sex if you really want to, but i’m more than fine without it.  there are also times, though, where i’m almost to the level of being sex repulsed.  i don’t wanna talk about it, don’t wanna read it, i hardly even want to cuddle.  because that’s another thing that’s fun about the ace spectrum, is some are good with physically intimate actions like hand holding, kissing, snuggling, basically everything but sex, while others can’t really handle any of that.  and when i’m on my “low” as i call it, i can barely handle hand holding.  times like that i wonder, am i really ace flux?  i feel absolutely zero sexual desire or attraction, like, how could i say i’m bi at all?  i’m obviously full on ace.  and then when i’m on my “high”s i wonder the other way.  am i ace at all?  or am i just bi?  what’s going on with that?  so basically it’s a fun mixture of always questioning myself.

so....this is a really long answer that basically comes down to, it’s different for everyone, but there are so many variations and labels even within the ace spectrum that if you want a more exact label, there probably is one for you.  it can just take a lot of research to find.  so i hope this helps!  please feel free to come back with more questions.  i’m more than willing to go into more detail about any of this the best that i can, but please know this is just my view of things and what i’ve found through research/experience so others could very possibly disagree.  hehe . big hugs and good luck figuring out how you feel about things!

[riptidepublishing]

Can someone help me understand the Ace Spectrum, please? I'm trying to make sense of... things and I'm so confused I don't know what to do.

Of course!

So, the place where I think most of us get confused on our ace identity journey is with separating out types of attraction, and also separating out attraction from sex drive. So let’s talk about those two things:

There are many kinds of attraction, but we’re going to talk about these: sexual, romantic, aesthetic, and sensual. The idea of the split attraction model is that you don’t have to be attracted to someone in more than one of the ways above at the same time to still experience real and powerful attraction of a specific kind. For most allosexual (non-ace spectrum) folks, they tend to experience all four modes of attraction at the same time, and in particular sexual, aesthetic, and sensual attraction are so deeply tied together that they may not realize they’re actually three separate things. In ace folks, those modes of attraction are often not experienced at the same time, and one of them (sexual attraction) may not ever be experienced at all.

Romantic attraction is, well, someone you’re romantically attracted to. You want to spend your time with them, you think about them when they’re gone, they inspire poetry in you, etc etc.

Sexual attraction is basically when you see a person and think, Wow, I’d hit that. This is the kind of attraction people on the ace spectrum either don’t experience at all or don’t experience as often/broadly as allosexual folks, so we’ll come back to this one in a bit.

Aesthetic attraction is when something hits you just right in the beauty department and you want to look at it for a while. In my own personal experience with both myself and my ace friends, this type of attraction is often (but by all means not always or in everyone) hyper-powered in aces. I’m ace, and lemme tell you, there are people I could stare at forever. But I have never once in my entire life looked at one of those people and thought Wow I’d climb them like a tree. Just never happened, probably never will, because I don’t actually experience sexual attraction.

This particular kind of attraction often trips up people who are struggling to understand asexuality, to which I’d suggest this amazing example I’ve seen floating round the interwebs: You ever go out hiking, and you come to the top of a mountain and you see this breathtaking view of other mountains and valleys stretched out for miles before you, and it’s so incredibly beautiful that you just sit right down and stare at it for a while, and maybe you decide to take an early lunch so you can enjoy the view some more because it’s that lovely. But do you at any point want to bang the mountains? No, you do not. (I mean, if you do, we’re not judging, but let’s assume for most folks the answer is no :-p) And that is the difference between aesthetic and sexual attraction.

Sensual attraction is when you see a person and want to touch or hug or cuddle them in a non-sexual way. Some aces don’t experience this at all. Others experience it quite a lot. Still others experience it somewhere in the middle. For some aces it’s tied exclusively to romantic attraction. For others it’s tied to affection in general (familial, platonic, romantic, etc.). For others, it’s tied to aesthetic attraction. There are all kinds of reasons you might experience sensual attraction, but it’s important to remember that it doesn’t have to be tied to sexual attraction in any way.

So, that’s the split attraction model. To make a personal example, I experience aesthetic attraction roughly every 0.4 seconds, romantic and sensual attraction very rarely (and not always together), and sexual attraction literally never (I’m all the way on the far end of the ace spectrum). And my aesthetic attractions don’t necessarily line up with my romantic or sensual attractions, and vice versa. But aces are many and varied and beautiful, and everyone’s going to experience these attractions differently.

The other thing I wanted to talk about is how sexual attraction =/= sex drive. Folks struggling to identify on the ace spectrum often think they’re not “allowed” to be ace because they masturbate, or they watch porn, or they’re experiencing sexual attraction to their current partner. But here’s the thing: all of those experiences are 100% valid and do not make you any less ace.

First, remember that asexuality, like all sexualities, is a spectrum. So you may be all the way on one end of the spectrum like me (never experiences sexual attraction under any circumstance), or you may be demisexual (only experiences sexual attraction with someone to whom you’ve formed a deep emotional relationship) gray ace (only experiences sexual attraction rarely, for reasons that may or may not involve emotional connection). Both of those orientations are valid asexual identities that involve sexual attraction, and experiencing sexual attraction in those ways does not invalidate your identity on the ace spectrum.

Second, it’s important to remember that sex drive doesn’t actually have to be tied in any way to sexual attraction. Think about the human body like a machine. Just because you’re ace doesn’t mean the pipes don’t still work, you know? You can still experience arousal, you can still enjoy orgasm, you can still enjoy porn, you can even still enjoy sex with other people. None of those things means you experience sexual attraction to the person(s) you’re watching or with. Many aces have extremely active sex drives. Many aces have robust solo sex lives. Many aces read or watch porn to get off (check out autochorissexual; it’s an identity many aces feel at home with, including me). And there are endless valid reasons why an ace person might have sex with someone (you want the emotional intimacy, you’re horny, it makes your partner happy and you don’t mind it at all, you’re wildly in love and want to express it physically, you’re sensually attracted and want the physical closeness, you want to get/get someone pregnant, it just plain feels good, etc. etc. etc.), not one of which need involve sexual attraction to the person you’re sleeping with. Of course, if you’re gray ace or demisexual, you may very well experience a deep sexual attraction to the person you’re with. The point is, aces can and do have sex drives, masturbate, watch porn, and have sex with other people. Although I feel it’s also important to point out here that it’s perfectly okay not to do any of these things; some aces are sex repulsed and/or touch-averse and that is 100% valid too.

Okay so this answer is getting crazy long now, and I feel like I’ve covered the general bases, so I’m going to wrap up. But if you have any other questions, please don’t hesitate to ask! Half the staff here is ace and we’re always happy to talk about it, either in broad strokes or via our own personal experiences.